Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We are meeting with representatives from the Community Radio Forum of Ireland, CRAOL, which is also Community Radio Ireland, and the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, to discuss the challenges facing the broadcasting sector as a result of Covid-19.

I welcome our witnesses to the meeting. I welcome Mr. John Purcell, chairman of the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, and Mr. Declan Gibbons, who is the station manager at Kilkenny Community Radio, presenting on behalf of CRAOL, who are here with us in committee room 3. I also welcome Ms Mary Lennon, who is with us remotely. She is the project co-ordinator from CRAOL and she will be joining the meeting via Microsoft Teams.

The format of the meeting is such that witnesses will be invited to make an opening statement which will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statement, which is limited to three minutes, I advise them of the following on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. For anyone watching this meeting, in most instances Oireachtas Members and witnesses may now be physically present in the committee room or join the meeting remotely via Microsoft Teams. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

If attending in the committee room, people are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. At the moment we only have Senator Cassells and myself in here, so there is no fear of that for a while. Those attending in the committee room are strongly advised to practise good hand hygiene and to leave at least one vacant seat between themselves and others attending. They should always maintain an appropriate level of social distance during and after the meeting. Masks should be worn at all times during the meeting except when speaking.

I ask members to please identify themselves when contributing for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report, and to please mute their microphone when not contributing to reduce the background noise and feedback. If joining remotely, I ask members to use the raised hand function when they wish to contribute. I remind all those joining today's meeting to ensure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off.

I call Mr. Purcell to make his opening address.

Mr. John Purcell:

I thank the committee for the invitation to talk on behalf of the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland on the challenges facing us as a result of Covid-19. In doing so, I am here with a sense of pride as to the very positive contribution that has been made by Irish radio, both independent radio and our colleagues in RTÉ, during the months of dire emergency for society, our economy and our way of life. I am also coming in a spirit of positivity, seeking to highlight what has worked, what we have learned, what challenges remain and what we can do together to address future challenges facing our country in which media play a very important role in. Ultimately, we are all in this together.

I also want to speak of opportunities for the future and the power of our medium for positive change. However, I must warn the committee that, despite our success achieved in the pandemic thanks to the courage, hard work, flexibility and creativity of our teams, as well as the support of the State, our sector remains fragile and action is needed to ensure that public service broadcasting, and that which we provide, is sustained and nurtured into the future.

First, I will provide some context. We have been in here over many years speaking about the fundamental threats, caused by a range of sectors, which are on the horizon in relation to our broadcast media. Into this came Covd-19, which posed fundamental questions for our businesses, but, more importantly, for our society. The prospect of having to cease operations stared many chief executives of Irish radio stations in the face in the opening stages of the pandemic, and I have spoken on this before. However, I am glad to say the sector rose to the challenge and we have had what many consider to be radio's finest hour. This was made possible by our teams as well as the imaginative Government support in the form of the special Covid-19 sound and vision scheme, which on top of all the other supports ensured the survival of our stations and underpinned the continuation of local coverage that was accurate, relevant, reliable and trusted.

That fund was introduced quickly; it was practical and fit for purpose. It made a huge difference and it delivered value for money. We believe it was instrumental in ensuring we could continue to perform throughout the pandemic. Covid meant that the type of funding support for which we have argued for many years, where public money can be used for clearly defined purposes, was introduced in just months, where previously this would have seemed impossible. It showed that when a need is recognised and action is taken, then a big difference can be made. I circulated a document in advance which shows the listenership for Irish radio is in good shape.

However, Covid has not gone away, and as we speak, there are still many more twists and turns ahead and the fundamental problems and challenges for our business model remain. For ten years before the pandemic, independent radio and our business model, along with many of our colleagues across other media, have been under pressure. Our recovery has been fragile and is by no means assured into the long term.

Beyond sectoral challenges for the media, I do not need to tell members the most critical threat that we face will be climate change. This will perhaps be even greater than Covid, and it can only be reversed by concerted action by our citizens and our society. In this effective community, communication will be a critical element, and radio can play a huge part.

Last week, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, organised an event for the broadcasting sector. Dr. Dave Robbins, who is director of the centre for climate and society at Dublin City University, DCU, and who has studied the role of the media, highlighted the valuable role already played by local and independent radio. There is far more that can be done and he highlighted how radio can play a significant part because we are a powerful medium for change. We have shown the worth that we can return for investment through the Covid fund and we can do the same on climate change.

I urge members to use the good offices of this committee to help us work with the Minister and the Department to progress the establishment of a multi-annual fund geared towards the necessary public communication action required to combat the climate emergency.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Purcell and call Mr. Declan Gibbons, who has three minutes.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

I thank the Acting Chair and committee for affording an opportunity to the Community Radio of Forum of Ireland, CRAOL, to address the committee. We thought we would be looking backwards at Covid and the impact of it, but, unfortunately, it looks like it is going to be with us for some time to come. Challenges remain and we look forward to being part of the solution to those challenges as well.

CRAOL, which is also called the community radio forum of Ireland, is the network of the Irish community radio sector. We have more than 2,000 community radio volunteers, broadcasting weekly to almost 300,000 people from 21 fully licensed stations and almost 15 aspirant stations. Our mission is to develop the community radio movement and to realise its potential to make a difference to the communities that its members are part of, delivering a social benefit to these communities.

Early in the pandemic, in April last year, we carried out a survey to determine the direct impact that Covid-19 was having on stations. The purpose was to capture a snapshot of the situation across the 21 full-time, fully licensed member stations. Some 17 stations responded; 16 of those were still broadcasting at the time of survey and one had reportedly ceased operations temporarily due to Covid. Two stations reported increasing their hours, one of which was to facilitate leaving certificate subjects to be aired, and the remaining stations stated that they had to reduce their hours of broadcasting.

Broadcasting hours varied across individual stations, ranging from 40 hours per week to the full 168 per week, with all stations reporting changes to programming and schedules. The reasons for these changes were a direct result of governmental restrictions regarding social distancing, cocooning, working from home and non-essential travel. In fairness to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, it was quite understanding and has been quite flexible in that regard. Changes included a reduction in the production of programmes, shifting to remote programming, ceasing live programmes, broadcasting archived programmes and content changes, such as more health related topics, programmes for elderly and broadcasting religious services. Three stations were working completely remotely, and to facilitate remote working, a variety of software and hardware was being used. Stations reported that boards and management committees had implemented measures that included facilitating remote working, exercising social distancing in the workplace, promotion of infection control, limiting the number of staff and volunteers at the station at any given time and maintaining communication with staff and volunteers through apps like Zoom and Google Hangouts.

We commissioned a follow-up survey in November of this year. Many issues remain for the stations. Many of the volunteers who populate stations were older or in high-risk categories and many stopped coming to the stations, resulting in the loss of good people and resources. Pre-Covid community stations were lively social hubs that gathered many volunteers and contributors daily in their offices and the studios, and this is now gone as the ongoing Covid is heavily limiting the presence of members on the premises. Only some volunteers want to record their programmes from home or had the skills and means to do so, and stations had to adapt to a whole new system very quickly. This brought to light the inadequacy of facilities as some stations that operate from very small spaces and this led to volunteer displacement. Volunteers who are dependent on public transport are wary of coming to the station, and high turnover of volunteers and staff during the pandemic has brought with it a loss of experience.

On the income side of things, stations are reliant on delivering training and local communities and businesses to support the running costs. During Covid, many small businesses were closed and it was much more difficult to raise finance. Measures and health and safety are limiting the offerings for training, summer camps, and work placements for students, etc. In addition, the possibility of running any kind of fundraiser was severely restricted, and usually community fundraisers are ongoing challenges for the stations.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have let you go a minute over time. You will be able to raise these points again. I appreciate the opening statements. We will proceed to the question and answer session, where members will be asking questions. A rota has been circulated to members. We will stick strictly to the five minutes, and that is five minutes for questions and answers. If I end up interrupting the witnesses, I am not being rude but we have another session after this. Hopefully, once we get through the members' rota, we might be able to go for a second round of questions. I am not being rude, but I am just trying to get through the questions and answers in the time.

I call Senator Malcolm Byrne, who has five minutes.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses today for their testimonies, and the work of the independent and community radio stations around the country, particularly during this difficult period where much emphasis had to be placed on trusted news sources. It is increasingly a challenge as to how we deal with misinformation and disinformation. We saw it during the course of the pandemic and we are still dealing with it. Equally, with regard to the points on climate change, there are people who are climate change sceptics and who are trying to spread misinformation. There is an important role for community and local radio stations to provide factual information and to challenge if a platform is provided to climate sceptics.

Can the witnesses talk a bit more about their roles in that area, in particular where they see radio promoting increased digital and media literacy, especially in the sphere of misinformation and disinformation? I welcome the acknowledgement of the very extensive supports that have been made available by Government. This had to happen for the business community more widely, but we are now going to be moving into a situation whereby we are going to be rebuilding our communities. We will face difficulty for the next while, but communities will have to come back together. What role do the witnesses see for community and local radio stations in stressing the positives in our communities and helping them to rebuild as we recover?

Mr. John Purcell:

The key thing about climate change is that it must be made relatable, it must be made relevant and it must be achievable. Not too much of the time, but a large amount of the time, the public discourse at a national level and, indeed, an international level is on millions of tonnes, polar ice caps and the big macro picture. In order to change the behaviour of our citizens, we need to make it local, relevant and so on. In the early stages of the Covid pandemic, funding was made available whereby independent stations tendered, so to speak, for what initiatives they would undertake to increase public information. This ranged from daily health slots to financial advice, people telephoning with problems, programmes for mental health and all of that kind of thing. That could be replicated on climate change and those issues. Following local families that are leading the way in adapting to the climate emergency is another way.

On digital literacy and misinformation, we already support a number of Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, initiatives in that respect. However, it is addressed through programming and through teasing out the issues locally and so on. To do that, we will need resources and support because such programming is not commercially viable in its own right, but it is necessary to safeguard our democracy and increase the literacy of our citizens.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

On the environmental side of things, we were approached by the BAI and by a company called Sustainability Works a few years ago about the possibility of setting up a sustainability network, and that was something that community radio embraced. Mr. Purcell spoke about those things being broken down. We looked at the 17 goals. When we first looked at them, we wondered whether we could relate to any of them. However, when you get into them, much of it is relatable to our business, for want of a better description, and our sector. It is something in which we have decided to play an active part and be leaders in.

We have been able to demonstrate how community radio is implementing those kind of things on the ground by facilitating NGOs and local groups which are active in the community and giving them an opportunity and allowing people to talk about facts rather than scaremongering and that type of thing that goes on.

The former CEO of BAI said in the last two years that community radio has been the single largest contributor to media literacy in recent decades. There are huge challenges there in the whole remote space at the moment, but once we get back to a person-to-person situation, community media has great opportunity to increase media literacy. In addition, we will be creative in the meantime in finding technologies that will improve that and allow us to do that.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Mary Lennon, project co-ordinator, is attending remotely. Ms Lennon, if you would like to contribute at any time, or elaborate on any of those answers, just raise your hand and feel free to comment.

Ms Mary Lennon:

Community radio stations were thrown into a new way of working because of Covid. Part of that was embracing technology. One of the things that community stations do really well is deliver training to and upskilling members of the community, and especially those hard to reach communities. That was one of the things that the stations excelled at. They were able to adapt and change and keep their stations on air, but also keep their volunteers and communities engaged and informed of what was happening.

Mr. John Purcell:

A quick point on media literacy is that in addition to special measures, the best antidote to misinformation is robust journalism and to have the people who are spreading misinformation challenged with the facts. That is the best way, but to do that you need to have a sustainable media sector.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I could not agree more. Thank you Senator Byrne for your questions. I call Senator Micheál Carrigy.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their involvement in local and community radio and for the service they have provided over the last 18 months. The figures were given by Mr. Purcell of the increase in listenership, and that is due to the fact that it is a trusted media source, and it is important that it is maintained. A couple of colleagues and I had numerous meetings with the local media - local newspapers, local radio and community radio - and earlier in the year put in a submission to the Future of Media Commission. One of the conclusions we came to was the need for a diverse range of media coverage of local activity and strong journalism, both of which are essential for our local communities.

The content created continues to be relevant, but the way that audience accesses that content is rapidly changing. With that change, the traditional way an organisation can earn money is under serious threat. We have to look beyond Covid, although how far away that is, we do not know. However, it is important the support mechanisms that were there previously are kept by Government. We have to develop a framework that will allow this change to happen in a sustainable way for the witnesses' organisations to be able to survive and continue to give us that trusted news.

Part of our proposal was basically replacing the television licence fee with the public service media charge. We could bring in in the region of an extra €50 million to €60 million into that fund, and make that fund available across all media, be it written media, local radio, regional radio or community radio. Support would come through the Future of Media Commission, which was set up. What are the witnesses' views on that proposal and is that something they would support?

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Mr. Purcell.

Mr. John Purcell:

We are impatient to see the report of the Future of Media Commission published. It was due in July but has yet to see the light of day. Our concern across the media is that this will drift and it will be just another report. We very much welcome the idea of funding support, such that Senator Carrigy outlined. We are agnostic on the means of delivery as that is a political decision but we would urge is action.

There is equally a delay in the enactment of the online safety and media regulation Bill, and that is putting off the day when the damage being done by online harms can be addressed. It is also creating uncertainty in our industry over regulation and licence renewal, and these are serious issues for us. We welcome suggestions of funding, but we have a concern about the timing. Action needs to be taken now because the speed of change on the ground in broadcasting is very quick. However, the speed of change on the framework, which we have been experiencing, is glacial.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

On the online situation and our sectors, whether independent or community, and the broadcast sector in general, one thing is clear; it is highly regulated. Nobody loves regulation at the start, but we are well used to it and it has provided robust structures and it means we can stand over what we do.

That is still completely lacking in the online sector, and something needs to be done about that because there is no sign of a level playing pitch at all. The amount of revenue that is heading online to an unregulated space is something that has to remain a concern for all media and for diversity and plurality in the country. That is important.

On threats to the model, apart from environmental sustainability for community radio, just sustainability and survival are absolute constants and are absolutely essential. However, it is not our business to decide what the model is. We think the model needs to be robust if there is to be a media charge that will be shared out among what might be called traditional media. It has to be something that is sustainable.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I, too, would like to pay tribute to the witnesses' organisations, and especially my local South East Radio. They lifted the spirit of rural Ireland. As politicians, people phone us often, and there are many people out there who are very lonely and isolated, and the witnesses' organisations helped to raise their spirits and helped to ease their minds. I thank them very much for that.

This question has probably been asked but I would like to ask Mr. Purcell about the real impact broadcasting can have on the climate change campaign. Can he give us an example of how it can be used to change people's mindsets?

The Covid sound and vision fund was a much-needed financial support for the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI. How important is it now to take steps to set up an annual fund to getting message across and to combat, as Mr. Purcell said, the conspiracy theorists and propaganda on climate change? We have very powerful actors acting against climate change. For example, we have a former President of the United States, so there are very powerful actors out there.

In regard to Community Radio Form of Ireland, CRAOL, the witnesses outlined the many difficulties Covid has caused rural radio stations, particularly the voluntary sector. What is needed now for these rural stations to continue and survive? How can we, an Oireachtas committee, help to alleviate some of the pressures they are under?

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

There is much pressure on community radio stations, and as far as sustainability is concerned, some form of constancy funding, or guaranteed funding, for the future would be hugely helpful to community stations, because there are different models across the network of stations. As I said, most are concentrating on fundraising on an ongoing basis, and that means that it takes away from their ability to deliver on the ground elsewhere, as far as the cynicism on climate change, etc., is concerned. As I said, we are very much part of that. We allow voices to get on air and we have the luxury, if you like, whereby we can give groups an extensive amount of time to air their views. Rather than just having an "I did not interrupt you, you did not interrupt me" type programme, we can give people the space to do that, whether they are professionals or volunteers. That is really important because while we might be based on a voluntary model, we are still subject to the same regulations. Therefore, there are guarantees provided for the listener and the public.

Mr. John Purcell:

On the environment, we can highlight role models, give practical information, challenge misinformation, help humanise the action that needs to be taken to combat climate change, provide a platform for local communities, organisations and people who are trying to bring about change to spread their message, do feature programmes and infomercials, involve people in the change that is needed in a fun way and undertake promotions to get people out of their cars and cycling to work maybe one day a week and make those fun and accessible. However, we need staff to do that and, currently, as I said, our business model is in a fragile state. It was never more fragile than during Covid, but when the proper supports were put in, we were able to rise to the occasion.

In terms of practical help that we could receive, I would ask this committee to work with us, to take the lessons learned from the success of the Covid scheme and to try to apply it to other areas, especially climate change. There are other areas, such as the support of Irish culture, and we have done an Irish music month with another sound and vision scheme. We can learn the lesson and move on, so that the magnificent response to Covid is not just a one-off and that we do the same again. Unfortunately, and I do not mean to be confrontational when I say it, but there is a feeling that if we wait for the delivery of the report, the enactment of the appropriate legislation and so on, it will be too late. We need support now.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Do any of the other witnesses wish to comment further? I call Ms Lennon.

Ms Mary Lennon:

On climate change, community media is well placed to work on the ground with the communities, maybe with younger people, and to promote that push up, rather than push down, with climate change. A person may ask what he or she can do as he or she is only one person. That is what community media can concentrate on and work with the communities on.

On what is needed for the community radio sector, no more than the independent sector, community radio has expenses, such as the insurance, licences and all the overheads, but it is providing a social benefit within the community and is covering all the topics that promote community cohesion and community living. There could be more assistance with programme costs for community stations.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We have received apologies from Senator Annie Hoey and Deputy Mattie McGrath. Deputy Alan Dillon is not on the call sends his apologies as well. I call Senator Fintan Warfield.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. I apologise if this has been covered as I had to leave the meeting for a moment. I want to ask about the integration of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill into the online safety and media regulation Bill. I suppose this concerns the independent commercial broadcasters and, as the witnesses know well, the community stations. In terms of the community station, it is an exemption from the broadcasting levy. In terms of the commercial radio station, it is a greater flexibility of the advertising times, and that piqued my interest when I heard it. I would like to hear a response from the independent broadcasters. Is that something that has been sought by the independent radio sector for some time? Were the advertising times too rigid? In all of this, I am thinking about the listener. However, I understand that the witnesses' competition is Spotify and subscription services where there are no ads. My concern would be that we would be moving gradually towards a smaller broadcasting hour, as you might call it in television production, and which must be the same in radio. I would welcome a response on the waiving of the levy for the community radio stations and the advertising time for the commercial.

Mr. John Purcell:

On the advertising minuteage and flexibility, currently the maximum is ten minutes per hour, and that is each hour. What we are seeking is that it can be averaged over a number of hours. For example, if a radio station is doing a live match commentary, because of the particular broadcast format, it is unable to put advertising in it. It might not have been match commentary during the height of the pandemic; it might have been mass, for example, which was broadcast on many stations. You cannot broadcast ads during that particular time, so maybe you could do four minutes of ads in one hour and ten minutes in the next hour, which is the maximum. For those 14 minutes, we would ask that we could do four in one hour and 12 in the next hour so we could balance it. We would not seek to do that the whole time but it is about that flexibility. At the moment, it is very rigid. This points out the rigidness of the way that we are regulated. This issue has been going on for years.

It is about whether you can do ten minutes in one hour and 11 minutes in another hour, nine minutes in one and eight in another. Meanwhile nothing is being done about the use of data by the online operators under discussion. The idea of the advertising minute is a good examplar of the burden under which we operate, unlike those who operate online. In regard to the amendments, we have argued consistently that we would like to see the broadcasting levy removed for independent radio also so that we can invest that money in journalism. We have asked for that also for many years. The key thing is that the amalgamation, or integration, of the broadcasting (amendment) Act with the online safety and media regulation Bill is that it is done sooner rather than later. At the moment there is regulatory uncertainty. The re-licensing process for radio stations is due to begin in the next 18 months and we currently do not know how that will be handled.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

We very much welcome the waiving of the levy for the community sector. That is something we sought for a long time. There are two aspects to this. There is the financial cost of the levy, but also the process was extremely unwieldy and placed quite a burden on stations with very limited resources. Apart from a financial burden it was an administrative burden. We very much welcome that development.

Throughout Covid-19 there was only one campaign run by Government Departments, which was a Covid-19 information campaign, in which community stations were included. As far as sustainability is concerned, we would like to be included in the very many Government information campaigns and State information campaigns. If our stations had access to those, and if they were automatically included in those, it would have a huge impact on incomes and sustainability.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Lennon have anything to add? I call Senator Cassells.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations this afternoon. In his opening statement Mr. Purcell stated that the prospect of having to cease operations stared the chief executives of most of the Irish radio stations in the face. How many of the 34 members of Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, came critically close to closure?

Mr. John Purcell:

I would say most of them, however the Government supports came in just in time. We were probably a week or two away from closure.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It was that close.

Mr. John Purcell:

I know that from my personal experience of looking at the drop in revenue.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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What would the average operating costs be, including journalism, energy and so on, for a typical member of the organisation over the course of a year?

Mr. John Purcell:

For a local radio station it would probably be in the range of €1.5 million to €2 million.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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In regard to the recovery of advertising revenue from Spring of 2021, how has that rebounded?

Mr. John Purcell:

There are two main categories. One is advertising agency revenue, which would be the big multinational, national and Government spending and so on. That has recovered very well and is performing well. Local advertising revenue is still down, typically by between 20% and 30%. There was a strong rebound in the months of July, August, September and October. November has largely stopped now because of the unfortunately gloomier Covid-19 outlook. December is uncertain. People are looking ahead with great trepidation to the first half of next year.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Purcell spoke about members reporting ongoing difficulties in recruiting and retaining staff. How many full-time journalists are employed across the 34 members?

Mr. John Purcell:

I do not have that information to hand but I would say it is in the hundreds. The total employment is just under 2,000 but I can clarify that.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is it becoming more difficult for journalism in news reporting? What would the average wage be for a young full-time journalist in a newsroom?

Mr. John Purcell:

I do not have those figures to hand.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Roughly speaking, for a young journalist in a newsroom - in a newspaper you are talking about €35,000 to-----

Mr. John Purcell:

Starting off you are going from the mid-€20,000s realistically, upward, but you are dealing with a wide range of stations of different types and sizes across our organisation.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Purcell still feel there is a demand coming from young journalism students emerging from journalism college to go into the broadcasting space in local radio stations?

Mr. John Purcell:

Truthfully I do not think it is as strong as it was before. We are not seeing as many. The competition for staff is a lot higher. I do not know the facts but I think a job as a so-called moderator in a social media company probably pays more.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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That is my point. I still believe that young students have a grá for journalism. It is where they are actually going to now and where they see the opportunity, that is the point I am asking you about.

Mr. John Purcell:

I think it is an issue. Retaining staff is not unique to the broadcasting sector. The training body for the radio industry, Learning Waves, did a report during Covid-19. One of the issues that came to light was the high levels of stress suffered by many staff, primarily journalists at the front line of dealing with much of the stuff because during the pandemic many people contacted newsrooms with distressing stories and so on. There is both the aspect of it being a tough job, and the aspect regarding the financial viability of the sector and the salaries that can be offered given the competition from online media. As Mr. Gibbons said, the uncertainty around the whole so-called traditional media sector which, when people are constantly talking about the demise of radio and traditional media, may sometimes not make it the most attractive career choice.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Gibbons actually had one station close, he knows that from his survey. In terms of the operating costs, obviously it is different in the sense of commercial models, but in terms of those costs going forward, what is the current state of play with members?

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

The current state of play as in how much-----

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of financial viability. Mr. Gibbons talked about many presenters and researchers with a higher age profile who became more difficult to retain.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

That is still an ongoing challenge. We have far fewer people and many of them may not be quite able to use that technology or to do it from home because they are volunteers. That is a big problem. As far as our costs are concerned, the stations vary hugely in size but income is at an all-time low.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is there good engagement in regard to young journalism students from the different colleges throughout the city here wanting to be part of this?

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

Yes, we have two at the moment actually on placement with us, one of whom is a University of Limerick student of journalism and the other is fully qualified. We would absolutely love the opportunity to provide them with a bursary so that they could have training, because they are actually getting structured training with us at the moment. The commitment is incredible. They appreciate the opportunity it represents, but I and our organisation would love to provide them with some actual money.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Would you echo what Mr. Purcell said?

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We have gone over time. We may have an opportunity for a second round later. I call Deputy Imelda Munster.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My question is for the IBI. I presume Mr. Purcell has read the general scheme of the online safety and media regulation Bill. Is he happy with that, or what changes would he like to see, apart from what he said earlier about the broadcasting levy to be removed. Are there any other changes he would like to see?

Mr. John Purcell:

It is a while since I read it. We made a submission to this committee which reflects the bulk of them. The main direction of travel of our feeling on it is that there cannot be too much concentration put on the regulation of online media. The definition of harm may put it into most egregious extents of the harm. I think much of the harm of social media is in the gradual and small things.

Mr. Gibbons and I were speaking about it before. Ideally, I would like to see the same standards of fairness, accuracy, balance, good taste and so on that apply to traditional media applied to social media as well. I do not think the online safety and media regulation Bill does that but it is a start.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to the Future of Media Commission, whenever we see that report published, what specific recommendations would Mr. Purcell like to see in terms of his own sector?

Mr. John Purcell:

Our basic one would be the recognition of the public service role we provide, such as we provided throughout Covid-19 but which we have been supplying for a long time, the recognition that this is increasingly difficult in the environment in which we find ourselves, and the enactment of the principle that public money can be provided for broadcasting for the public good regardless of whether the company providing it is a semi-State body such as RTÉ or an independent commercial entity such as the members of IBI.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In his opening statement Mr. Purcell mentioned the need for a multi-annual fund based on the blueprint of the Covid-19 sound and vision initiative. Has he had discussions with the Minister or the Department on that? What reception did he receive?

Mr. John Purcell:

We mentioned it to the Minister at a meeting she held at our annual general meeting. We have not made representations since because we have been awaiting the publication of the Future of Media Commission. We expected that in July, then in September, so the position our organisation took was that it would be counterproductive to jump the gun pending the publication of that. It is apparent to us now that this does not seem to be coming any time soon so we are trying to move on. We will make representations to the Minister very shortly in that respect. As I said in my presentation, if we just wait for the publication at this stage, it is too long. Presumably it will be published, debated in the committee and in the Dáil, then there will be draft legislation and so on. Frankly, we are looking at a timescale of years, and we do not think we can wait.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Purcell might copy any correspondence he has with the Minister to the committee also so that we are aware of his concerns or asks.

Mr. John Purcell:

I will do that.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to CRAOL, and Ms Lennon or Mr. Gibbons might respond, it is not clear in regard to funding whether they are allowed to apply for funding under the same schemes as local radio, for example, for Government Covid-19 advertisements or for sound and vision and so on.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

I thank the Deputy for her question. We are able to apply to the general round of sound and vision, and in the past two years, 2020 and 2021, a special single community fund or community round was brought in. Last year it was €750,000 in total. This year it is €500,000 due to budgetary constraints. That is among all stations. If you divide that by 21, it does not amount to a great deal of money, but it is obviously very welcome and it is a bit more targeted than in the past. Community radio can also apply to the more general sound and vision rounds, as they have done. However, as I mentioned, as far as being on the list or the Departments' registers for advertising campaigns, whether about Covid-19, health and so on, unfortunately, we have great trouble being considered and being employed in that regard. We think that is very important for the future.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I presume Mr. Gibbons has raised this with the Minister. Given that his sector's funding has reduced by a third from last year, has he made any inroads regarding the Minister or the Department considering him for the Government Covid-19 advertising funding?

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

No, not in any formal way.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He is not gaining any traction there.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

We have failed so far. It is a bone of contention because we are doing the work and providing the information, regardless of whether we are paid for it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest to the Chair that it might be an idea, and I propose that we do so, given that the funding for the community round is being slashed by a third, for us as a committee to write to the Minister to express our concern that local radio stations are not included in the Government Covid-19 advertising funding. Looking at how things are going at the moment, unfortunately, we could be back to square one again over the coming months. It would be remiss of the committee not to flag that with the Minister. If there is agreement from the rest of the committee, I will propose it.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly tend to agree with Deputy Munster that we could put something in writing to the Minister about including community radio in Covid-19 advertising. Can we have a seconder for that?

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I second that.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. That will be arranged. We will move on now because we are over time again. It is on to me at this point.

I acknowledge that both commercial and community radio have been superb, particularly during Covid-19, in terms of broadcasting, excellent news bulletins and factual information, especially the daytime shows that many of the commercial radio stations run programmes which had discussions, experts and debates. It was fantastic. In my own area, such stations as C103, 96FM and Red FM from a commercial point of view and Bere Island radio, which is a community radio station at the very western tip of west Cork, all played a fantastic role during Covid-19 and I must acknowledge that. That is the importance of having the witnesses in here today and having these discussions.

I have some questions. The witnesses say listenership is up in general but revenue appears to be down. I assume the drop in revenue is attributable to the fact that businesses found it incredibly tough during Covid-19 and had less income to target towards advertising. Is there any evidence or any statistics that local businesses and SMEs in particular benefit greatly from advertising on local radio stations?

Mr. John Purcell:

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. In our radio station we have had clients since we started 17 years ago and they would not do it unless they got results. I am delighted that the IBI is involved with our colleagues in RTÉ in establishing a new body called Radiocentre Ireland, which is going to provide case studies of the effectiveness. The difficulty is that our revenue situation is very dynamic at the moment. In the first three months of this year it was very difficult. There was a recovery but not back to previous levels. Many stations - not all - for the first six months of this year got benefits from the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, and were able to keep going. The recovery was good from July onwards but we are into unknown territory again now. There are a number of factors. Sometimes businesses just do not open again. Sometimes businesses have gone online and developed the habit of just operating online. It is a complex picture, but I would say very strongly that advertising works.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is my point, that we need to get that message across that advertising, particularly on community and local commercial radio, is incredibly effective, and it would be an awful shame to see that listenership increase.

Mr. John Purcell:

The difficulty we face is that our biggest competitors are not newspapers but online media. Just as is the case with content, the regulations governing online advertising are as nothing compared with radio. Colleagues have probably seen examples of bogus advertising where well-known public figures appear to endorse products online. Try that on a radio station and you will be closed down within a week.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is to be hoped all that will be considered and dealt with in the online safety and media regulation Bill. The climate action discussion is important and I agree with Mr. Purcell about trying to reach some of the climate sceptics.

It is important to try to reach the audience where climate change sceptics are making an impression. Mr. Purcell is right in wanting to relate it to how climate change is impacting people on the ground. The most obvious examples are more common and frequent flooding events in coastal towns but also in inland towns that have rivers; those are perfect examples. A big issue impacting my neck of the woods is coastal erosion, because we are getting more frequent storms and rising sea levels and we are seeing parts of the coast eroded away. There is going to be a significant cost associated with that. What is the strategy in making that more accessible and reaching that audience?

Mr. John Purcell:

The success of the Covid measures and communication that we have done was because it was able to communicate solutions and issues that were relevant to people. The challenge in respect of climate change is that, and I am no expert, many people think that the solution is out there and external to themselves. We can be very effective in getting across to people that the solution to the global problem is local. We want people to think globally and act locally, as the saying goes, and we are ideally poised to do that.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Would that be done through covering these topics on your daytime shows? Would it be done through news bulletins?

Mr. John Purcell:

A whole variety of things. For example, I would love for my station to have a full-time environmental correspondent who does nothing other than reaching out to community groups, local businesses and agricultural organisations and discusses with them the issues that they face and then brings that into news coverage and daily programming, and maybe do a special climate programme as well. However, at the moment, we do not have the resources to do that. We are trying to up our climate coverage working with local organisations, etc. Society needs a step change in action and, equally, broadcasters need a step change in action as well to help bring about the change. We cannot do that without significant support.

Mr. John Purcell:

Can the witnesses summarise their asks for the committee today and for Government going forward to ensure the viability of commercial local radio and community radio?

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

We need a sustainable base model of funding for all stations that are licensed, which means they meets certain standards. We need a base model of funding provided there. I would like community stations, in particular, to be considered and included, and not just considered and ignored, in public spending campaigns, of which there are many. We are not included in JNLR research; it is important to mention that. That is by regulation from the BAI. Its view of the community sector is that we are here to deliver social benefit and there should not be a focus on listenership. Many of our commercial supporters locally, which are businesses that support us, will support us to a certain degree because they support us and they are in favour of us, but, ultimately, the conversation will be about how many listeners we have. We do not have the same mechanism to provide that information.

Ms Mary Lennon:

I would like a recognition of community media, community radio and the work that is being done throughout the country in communities and on the ground. This is the third pillar of broadcasting and we deliver social benefits. It is about building communities and community development. I would like recognition that our broadcasting is volunteer-led, but it is real broadcasting.

Mr. John Purcell:

My ask is to work with us and the Minister to quickly establish a new scheme for independent commercial radio to allow us to address important issues of public interest, such as climate change, Irish culture, and so on, building on the model that has been established by the sound and vision Covid fund.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We have about 25 minutes left, therefore we can commence a second round of questioning, if that is okay. Please keep it brief in case other members would like to come in as well. I call Senator Micheál Carrigy, who was the first to indicate.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I mentioned trusted content in the local media sector earlier, and I would like to pay tribute to my own local stations, Shannonside FM, Midlands Radio 3, and Athlone Community Radio, all three of which I deal with on a regular basis. I compliment them on their trusted content.

We recently met with Google regarding the issue of online platforms paying for that trusted content. It is my understanding that agreements have been reached with a lot of the regional newspapers, with regard to content. Have any overtures been made to either the community or the independent radio sector regarding agreements such as that in recent months?

Mr. John Purcell:

No

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Very plain and simple.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

The short answer is "No, not yet".

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Carrigy, that was a "No", in case you did not hear it.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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From both parties. That is something that needs to be highlighted. There is a need to move and make agreements across all sectors of media that are providing that trusted content.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is agreed. I call Senator Malcolm Byrne.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to follow up on Mr. Purcell's point about having an environmental correspondent. Colleagues were asking, including Senator Cassels in particular, about the number of staff and so on. How difficult is it for stations to ensure they can continue to guarantee to provide that trusted, well researched content? I am very conscious that in our own case in South East Radio, as Senator Mythen said, there is a limited number of staff with limited time to research some of the background material. There would not be the same resources in a local community-based radio station. Are there any ways in which it can be more effectively done in pooling resources? How can local commercial radio continue to provide that level of expertise and knowledge to research the facts in an increasingly competitive environment? I can understand that it is very difficult for a presenter if they do not have a team of researchers. How will they be expected to challenge climate sceptics or those who are spreading misinformation on the vaccine? What supports can be put in place to most effectively do that?

Mr. John Purcell:

On how difficult it is to keep the show on the road for local radio stations during the pandemic, in this stage that we are entering into now, anybody with a close contact has to isolate at home for five days. If a station has a news reader, a programme presenter, and a producer, and any of them have young children and one of them is sent home as a close contact, its morning show and news bulletins can be very challenged. To put it into context, in the station where I work, we have three journalists providing 12-hour news during the day, from 7 a.m. until 7 p.m., one producer and a presenter for a two-hour morning show, and a presenter and a part-time broadcast assistant for another talk show. In that environment, it is very difficult, when holidays or sick leave have to be covered and so on, to do the step change necessary to do environmental coverage. It comes down to extra staff and extra team members. With the strained resources that we operate under at the best of times, it is particularly difficult. In the onslaught of the constant undermining of the business model, it is just getting harder and harder. That is the reality of it.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

It needs to be resourced, which needs to be targeted. It is a danger that if a resource is given and it is not pointed in a particular direction, it might not go where the need is greatest at a given time. Therefore, a targeted measure, such as the bursary or a support towards journalism, where there has to be a person there and the funding is accounted for means the station's resources can be improved on an ongoing basis. I agree that the need is huge.

Mr. John Purcell:

To come back in on Senator Byrne's question on the pooling of resources, that is a possibility. However, what happens with the pooling of resources is that the local nature comes out. For example, if someone goes from a local station covering one county to a regional focus, inevitably, the local flavour will be lost to some extent. In addition, the money that ultimately will be saved will not be huge. Therefore, the benefits of investment far outweigh the benefits of retrenchment and reducing and spreading the already scarce resources on a thinner basis.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Can the witnesses give us a feeling of the condition that they are in at the moment? How many staff are part time? As Senator Cassels raised, have they lost many young journalists? With young journalists probably earning approximately €25,000 a year, they can go to other areas. Are they haemorrhaging some of those people? How many people are working part time because of Covid?

Mr. John Purcell:

It is difficult to give accurate examples because we have not undertaken a survey of that. Turnover of staff is an issue. I do not know how to address it in any more detail than that. We can look into and would revert back to the committee on that question because it is a very valid concern. I am sorry, I do not mean to be evasive.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. I thank Mr. Purcell.

Mr. Declan Gibbons:

Most community stations do not have a full-time journalist, and those that engage in providing structured news bulletins have somebody who is doing many other jobs as well. Something along the line of the bursary scheme I mentioned would help to improve resources. To go back to Senator Byrne's point, we have what is called a community radio news desk, which is where the resources of stations are pooled and sent to one station, and it is filtered out there. However, again, it is all about resources. If we had a little bit more, we could have more of that and improve the quality of what is available. I agree with the point Mr. Purcell made as well. That it is grand when it is about a topic that is of quite a general nature, but if something is very locally done in a community station, it does not always transfer.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Lennon who is here remotely, and I also thank Mr. Gibbons and Mr. Purcell, for coming in for this session. They can quite clearly sense the positive light in which members view local and community radio and the service it provides. It is also clear that members have a very good relationship with local radio, which is fantastic and important as well. We will get the letter Deputy Munster requested to the Minister.

I propose we suspend briefly to allow the secretariat to make arrangements for our next session with representatives from FairPlé, MiseFosta and Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann to discuss a safe and respectful working environment in the arts. Members attending via Microsoft Teams are reminded to join using the second meeting invitation issued at 3 p.m.