Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome everybody to the meeting. Apologies have been received from Deputies Denise Mitchell and David Stanton, and Senator Eileen Flynn. As I am the only person in the room, and I will not forget, I will skip the piece on sanitisation. Before we hear from our witnesses, we have some business to attend to regarding the rules around privilege. I remind members that they must be in the Leinster House complex in order to attend this meeting. If any member attempts to participate from outside Leinster House, I will ask him or her to leave the meeting. I remind witnesses that as they are giving their evidence from outside Leinster House, they may not have the same privilege as if they were in Leinster House. They may think it is appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. They are again reminded that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or damage the good name of any person. If I indicate that I believe a witness is breaking this rule, he or she must stop.

The first business is the approval of the minutes of the committee meeting held on 7 October 2021. These minutes have been approved in the virtual private session but this must be done again in public session for procedural reasons. Are the minutes of the meeting of 7 October 2021 agreed to? Agreed.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I suggest that we publish the opening statements. Is it agreed to publish the opening statements from Travellers In Prison Initiative, Irish Penal Reform Trust, the Irish Association for Social Inclusion Opportunities, the Irish Prison Service, the Probation Service and the City of Dublin Education and Training Board on the committee website? Agreed.

We have witnesses from six organisations with us today. The meeting will be held in two sessions, with the first session focused on the non-governmental organisations, NGOs, and to conclude at 3 p.m., followed by a five minute break. The second session will focus on the official bodies and the meeting will conclude at 4 p.m. I will be strict on everybody in terms of time because we have a number of witnesses and we need to allow for a good session of questions. In terms of format for the meeting, we will hear the opening statements, following which I will allow questions from members. There may be time for a second round of questions. There is no limit to the number of questions members' can ask. In the first round, each member will have five minutes to ask questions. I will go around the house again, time permitting.

I welcome the Ms Anne Costello, programme co-ordinator and Ms Maria Joyce, co-ordinator of the National Traveller Women's Forum and chairperson of Travellers In Prison Initiative; Ms Fíona Ní Chinnéide, executive director, Irish Penal Reform Trust; and Mr. Barry Owens, operations manager, Irish Association for Social Inclusion Opportunities. The witnesses have approximately five minutes to make their opening statements. We will get to the meat of what is within those statements through the questioning process. We need to have as robust a questioning process as possible.

I now invite Ms Costello to make her opening statement.

Ms Anne Costello:

Good afternoon everybody. We thank Vice Chairman, Deputy Eamon Ó Cúiv, and members of the committee for giving us the opportunity to address them today on the issue of the over-representation of Travellers in prison and the work of the Travellers in Prison Initiative, TPI. The TPI is a St Stephen’s Green Trust, SSGT, programme and it is funded by SSGT, the Irish Prison Service, IPS, and the Probation Service. Its overall aim is to embed changes in policy and practice that have a positive influence on Travellers in prison, their families and communities.

I will begin with a short slide presentation, giving the committee a brief overview of the extent of the over-representation of Travellers and other ethnic minority groups in prison and to give an explanation for that. As the committee will be aware, Travellers in Ireland represent less than 1% of the total population, but they account for 10% of the prison population. Traveller women make up, at least, 15% of all women in prison.

As can be seen from the first slide, this over-representation is not unique to Ireland or to Travellers. Minority and indigenous groups the world are over-represented in prison. As can be seen from the slide, in New Zealand the Maori people account for 13% of the population, but over half the prison population. Likewise, for Australia, Canada and the other countries. For women from these groups, the picture is even more stark. Again, in New Zealand, Maori women make up 13% of the general population, but 56% of the prison population. Likewise in the other countries.

Why is this case? We went through some international research to try to find the common causes for this. As can be seen from the slide, these include the effects of colonisation and forced assimilation, the legacy of stripping indigenous people of their land, culture, language, laws and customs, the disruption of culture and traditions and denial of their identity.

The question then is how this relates to Travellers. I am sure this committee knows well how that relates to Travellers. The first instance is the 1963 Report of the Commission on Itinerancy, in which there is talk of the problem of "the presence ... of itinerants in considerable numbers" and "social problems inherent in their way of life’, and the plan discussed where "itinerants as a class would disappear" within a generation and there would be a "final solution" to the problem.

Since then, many laws and policies have been introduced which have had a negative impact on Travellers' way of life and on their legitimate ways to make a living. It was not until 2017 that the Government formally recognised Travellers as an ethnic minority.

Other areas the research identified were poverty and exclusion, high levels of unemployment, poor housing, educational disadvantage, poor health and mental health problems. This committee again knows well how that impacts on Travellers. They are just some of the statistics for Travellers with regard to unemployment and health. Suicide is seven times the average for the general population, etc.

The next area the research looked at was discrimination and oppression. Like minority indigenous groups in other countries, they had experience of discrimination in accessing goods and services, were described in the media as criminals, experienced a justice system with conscious and unconscious racism and suffered effects of oppression. That includes addiction, the use of alcohol and other drugs.

Again, how does this relate to Travellers? We are well aware of the discrimination Travellers experience in accessing services. Anybody on social media is well aware of the levels of hate speech when the issue of Travellers comes up. In a positive or negative context, there are always negative comments. In an internal Garda survey, not a single front-line garda had a positive attitude on Travellers. Similar to the other minority indigenous groups, the early onset of drugs and problematic drug use is linked to the trauma and oppression in their lives.

The final area I am looking at is around women. The research shows that they have faced particular issues. They suffer even more than men in prison and before imprisonment, they have issues with housing, poverty, mental health and trauma. We did some research with Traveller women in prison and they all faced those issues. I will not go into much detail on that here because Ms Joyce, my colleague, is going to talk more on the issue of Traveller women in prison.

I am not condoning crime in any form. I fully acknowledge the hurt and damage it causes across society. We all know that crime-free societies will benefit everybody. If we are really serious about trying to create safer societies, however, we must address the injustices that are often the root causes of crime. My presentation today gave a very fast overview of some of these injustices.

Even from a purely economic perspective, imprisonment is a very expensive way to try to reduce crime. At our recent conference, for example, President Higgins spoke about the injustice of cuts to Traveller education during the last recession; cuts that have not been reinstated and that have hugely negative impacts on Travellers' participation and outcomes in education. It is not rocket science to realise that it would be more cost-effective for the State to invest in addressing educational disadvantage and other causes rather than imprisonment. It is clear that the justice system alone cannot address this issue but it can play a really important part in improving outcomes for Travellers in prison and reducing the likelihood of them reoffending.

I will provide an outline of some recommendations for positive change. At our recent conference, Traveller men who had been in prison spoke about the issues they experienced in prison and the changes needed. They spoke about the common use of racist language in prison and the hurt and damage it causes them. They asked the Irish Prison Service, IPS, to send a message from the top down that there will be zero tolerance of that language and that there will be consequences for prisoners and staff who continue to use it.

They spoke of the power of Travellers working in prisons as positive role models, that is, Travellers who are peer support workers and who are in delivering training and peer mediation, Travellers who are mediators and the Traveller Counselling Service. That is beginning to happen in prison. They have asked that the IPS facilitate more Traveller role models to work in all the prisons.

They talked about the need for training workshops in all prisons where Travellers can learn practical skills to earn a living when they leave prison. They shared their own positive experiences of education in prison, which was often their first positive experience of education, but they also spoke of the need to encourage other Travellers to access education. They explained that many Travellers are reluctant because of their negative experience of school and the shame associated with that.

They spoke about protection. They highlighted the need to explain to new committals that protection is not necessarily a safe place and can be a hostile and isolating place, and they should avoid going there unless it is absolutely necessary. One Traveller man gave an example of how he had taken on that role of speaking to new committals in Castlerea Prison. They talked about punishment and stopping visits and telephone calls as a punishment for prisoners and explained how that also punishes innocent children. They discussed the need for special arrangements for prisoners with larger than average families to maintain contact with their families.

Finally, they gave positive examples of how trauma-informed therapies helped them to turn their lives around. I have circulated very short recordings of the men speaking about those issue. I am happy to discuss any of that this morning.

I will conclude with some priorities for the Travellers in Prison Initiative, the first of which is around ethnic equality monitoring. We have begun the journey of gathering accurate data about Travellers in the criminal justice system and I acknowledge the commitment of the IPS, the Probation Service and the Irish Association for Social Inclusion Opportunities, IASIO, to engage in this process.

I thank Pavee Point for its support in developing and delivering the training to staff who will be collecting the data. It is really important that staff asking the question about ethnicity are trained to explain the purpose of the question. Gathering accurate information is not an end in itself, however. The agencies here today and the TPI must work together to try to scrutinise the data and come up with workable solutions to understand and address any negative outcomes for Travellers compared to the general population that the data reports.

Our second area is around services in prison and probation. Again, the agencies here today will talk about how they have tried to adapt their services to ensure that Travellers can avail of the full benefits of their services. We welcome this but we seek a commitment to resource this work across all prison sites and in the Probation Service, for example, the development of guidelines on pre-sentence reports for Travellers.

Our third priority is around peer support. Travellers spoke about the impact it has when their peers work with them. We are delighted that the IPS has mainstreamed peer support in four prisons and peer mediation training has been delivered in five prisons by the Traveller Mediation Service. We need the support of the IPS to roll out peer support initiatives in all prisons, however, and to ensure that the Traveller Counselling Service will be resourced to ensure that it is more widely available to all Travellers in prison.

The final issue is around women in the criminal justice system. I am delighted that Ms Joyce, who will speak further on that issue, is here with me today.

I will conclude by saying that the criminal justice system is only part of the solution but it still has an incredibly important role to play in stopping the revolving door of the imprisonment of Travellers. We really appreciate the opportunity to raise the issues today and look forward to the ongoing co-operation of all the agencies and legislators present.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Costello. Now I call Ms Maria Joyce from the National Traveller Women's Forum.

Ms Maria Joyce:

Thank you, Vice Chairman. I will not be too long.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are okay, Ms Joyce.

Ms Maria Joyce:

I thank Ms Costello for that wider perspective on the over-representation of Travellers in prison. As she said, I will focus on Traveller women.

Traveller women in prison are a particularly vulnerable group. They are a forgotten, neglected group of women in the prison system, which reflects the racism, oppression and marginalisation Traveller women experience at wider societal and institutional levels. The National Traveller Women's Forum, NTWF, has begun to focus on their needs following research in 2016, when the Travellers in Prison Initiative interviewed 12 Traveller women in prison, which gave us a better insight into how they ended up in prison and the issues they faced while in prison and post release. Their honest stories make a compelling call for justice, rights and the action needed to bring about positive change in their lives. That research in 2016 also highlighted that 22% of women in prison at that time were Traveller women. Ms Costello highlighted the causes of over-representation of Travellers in prison. The reality is that concrete action is needed to ensure that this trend is reversed.

The NTWF acknowledges the funding we receive from the Irish Prison Service, IPS, to deliver peer support in the Dóchas Centre. Through that work we have a better insight into the complexities of the women's circumstances. While Traveller women in prison have much in common with other women, they experience additional layers of racism and oppression. Many have experienced the trauma of close family bereavement through suicide, mental health problems and drug addiction, with some progressing from prescribed drugs to illegal drugs. There is also the issue of domestic violence, and many of the women grew up in care and now their own children are in care. There are also the challenges and difficulties Traveller women face when engaging with the relevant services to attempt to reconnect with their children on release from prison if their children are in care or have gone into care as a result of the mother's prison sentence. A number of women over recent years have highlighted that as a particularly difficult and challenging experience.

The women have identified the need for supports as soon as they come into contact with the criminal justice system. These supports could include: information; help in linking with existing services - for example, mental health, addiction, family support or housing services; routes into employment to ensure routes out of poverty; and support to maintain contact with their family and children if they are in prison.

There is a significant need for equal access to education while in prison and a real need to ensure that culturally appropriate services are accessible to Traveller women in prison. There also needs to be effective monitoring, as we have heard, of the ethnic data being collected across the prison systems to ensure that disproportional outcomes for Traveller women are addressed. The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission's public sector duty training needs to be implemented in its entirety in the prison system in order that we begin to see some eradication of the discrimination and racism Travellers experience in the prison system every single day, which needs to be addressed and in respect of which the relevant actors need to be held to account. These supports could help to divert Travellers away from prison and to navigate the prison system if they are imprisoned, particularly in respect of the care of their children. These supports could also help to address mental health issues and addictions and support Travellers' reintegration back into their communities after prison. We know there is a particular stigma for women when they leave prison, and that is very relevant to Traveller women.

Funding is needed to resource this work. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Tusla recognise the need for a worker to undertake this type of wider support work and have made an application to the European Social Fund for funding. We also need the support of the IPS and the Probation Service in this area and an expansion of this work.

A number of Traveller women have told us that they have spoken to the Inspector of Prisons about perceived unfair treatment in prison. Some of the women have told the National Traveller Women's Forum that they feel let down that although they spoke out about the way they were being treated, the report has never been published. We seek the publication of the report. Women in the Dóchas Centre over the years have also highlighted the role of the Garda from the point of engagement with the criminal justice system to the major difficulty surrounding early release options. They very much depend on relationships with gardaí which, as we know, in the context of Travellers, are far from positive. As the committee heard Ms Costello say, in the internal Garda study in 2020 on attitudes towards Travellers not a single front-line garda surveyed had a favourable view of the community. That speaks for itself regarding Travellers' negative experiences of the policing system in Ireland. I thank the committee for the opportunity to raise our concerns here. It appears that our prisons are not safe for women, so we must watch this space. I look forward to the discussion in the question-and-answer session.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Joyce. I now invite Ms Fíona Ní Chinnéide of the Irish Penal Reform Trust to make her opening statement.

Ms Fíona Ní Chinnéide:

Thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for the invitation to meet with the joint committee on the topic of Travellers' experiences in prison. The Irish Penal Reform Trust is Ireland's leading non-governmental organisation campaigning for rights in the penal system and progressive reform of Irish penal policy. Our core message is that a just and humane penal system that protects and promotes human rights, equality and social justice will contribute to safer and more equal communities for everyone.

In recent years we have conducted research on minority groups in the penal system, including women, Travellers, LGBT people, older people and people with disabilities in prison. Of most relevance are the findings of our 2014 report, Travellers in the Irish Prison System, along with our current research project on access to rights for migrants and minority ethnic groups in the penal system, which is due for publication in early 2022. It is important to highlight intersectionality when we discuss Travellers' experiences in prison - for example, the position of an older Traveller woman with disabilities in prison. This need to incorporate an understanding of multiple and intersectional forms of discrimination has been addressed by the UN Human Rights Council, which emphasises the need to incorporate effective approaches in laws, policies and programmes.

As an overarching point, Travellers are over-represented in both the prison system and among people engaged by the Probation Service, but representation among the staff of both services, and indeed the Judiciary and other parts of the justice system, is extremely low. According to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, these are possible indicators of racial discrimination and wider social issues that must be addressed. Both Ms Costello and Ms Joyce have already articulated this very well.

We have focused on three key issues in our presentation. The first is the importance of data recording and ethnic equality monitoring. This is the first step towards addressing inequalities faced by minority ethnic groups caught up in the criminal justice system. There is a need for comprehensive and robust ethnic monitoring by all relevant agencies. Within the prison system in particular, ethnic equality monitoring is essential to ensure - for example: equitable access to education, training and work in prison; equal access to incentivised regimes; and equal access to early release programmes. Such monitoring is also needed to inform provision of appropriate services, including healthcare and mental healthcare. Ethnic equality monitoring also plays a critical role in protecting against potential differences - for example: in the use of restricted regimes, including solitary confinement; use of force and control and restraint techniques; and use of safety observation cells and close supervision cells.

I echo Ms Costello in that the IPRT welcomes the actions taken by the Irish Prison Service, including the introduction of an ethnic identifier and the collection of anonymised data and the peer-led training that has supported that roll-out. We are concerned, however, that these data should be adequately recorded, analysed and made publicly available. Without such data being made available, any disparities in treatment and potentially discriminatory practices cannot be identified and addressed.

Therefore, our first recommendation is that the Department of Justice should ensure that ethnic equality monitoring is adequately carried out across the criminal justice system using the ethnic categories developed by the Central Statistics Office.

The information, appropriately anonymised, should be made publicly available to support further research and evidence-informed policy and practice.

The second key issue is implementation of the public sector duty. Under section 42 of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014, there is a positive duty on all public bodies to eliminate discrimination and protect the human rights of staff and persons to whom they provide services. The Irish Prison Service, IPS, consistently demonstrates its commitment to the equality and human rights duty in its reporting. This is manifest primarily through staff training and policy. However reports of the Committee for the Prevention of Torture, CPT, and recent public disclosures regarding social media activity, suggest a small number of staff engage in discriminatory behaviour and racist abuse. Mandatory anti-racism training for staff should be reviewed, updated and repeated regularly, and members of the groups affected should be engaged in the development and delivery of this training. This must be met with positive action by the IPS to ensure that its training on human rights and equality issues is implemented in the prison estate on a practical day-to-day basis. Furthermore the current review of the Prison Rules 2007 is an opportunity to insert a positive obligation to eliminate discrimination, and thereby make it unambiguous that the rules must be implemented in a manner compliant with the public sector duty. Our second recommendation is that the IPS should ensure that the revised Prison Rules include an explicit statement of commitment to eliminate discrimination.

Our third and final recommendation relates to an effective complaints system. IPRT's forthcoming research, due for publication in early 2022, finds that the prison complaints system is ineffective in addressing complaints concerning racism. This echoes general findings by both the CPT and the Office of the Inspector of Prisons that the current complaints system is not fit for purpose. The Department of Justice and the IPS should ensure that the new complaints policy is rolled out with urgency so that that all complaints, particularly those relating to racial discrimination, are fairly and adequately addressed. This is critical to fostering a prison culture where everyone feels protected from discrimination and has confidence that he or she will be treated fairly. The IPS should also introduce a system for compiling statistics on all complaints made across the prison estate, and their outcomes, as recommended by the CPT. Our third recommendation is that the IPS and the Department of Justice should work together to ensure that the new internal prisoner complaints mechanism is introduced before the end of 2021 and consider how the complaint system can address and investigate allegations of racism in an effective manner.

I conclude by thanking the committee for its invitation and its attention to these issues and I look forward to the discussion.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Mr. Barry Owens, of the Irish Association for Social Inclusion Opportunities, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Barry Owens:

The Irish Association for Social Inclusion Opportunities, IASIO, thanks the Chair and the members of the committee for this invite and welcomes the opportunity to contribute to the Joint Committee on Key Issues facing the Traveller Community. IASIO provides front-line services to members of the Traveller community in prisons and as part of the Probation Service in the community. It has been doing so since 2000, with IASIO becoming a separate criminal justice organisation in 2012. Our participation today is based on that operational experience. IASIO provides three main services, the linkage service which is funded by the Probation Service, the resettlement service funded by the IPS and the gate service which is also funded by the IPS. The linkage service is a community-based, employment related, guidance and placement service specifically designed for people in the criminal justice system. It assesses a person’s distance from the labour market and identifies any barriers to progression that may exist. Working with the person it identifies realistic goals around training, education and employment and supports the person in achieving those goals. The linkage service is delivered through training and employment officers, TEOs, of which there are currently 17, equating to 15.6 whole-time equivalent posts, attached to the probation teams around the country. Between 2016 and 2020 the linkage service received 8,498 referrals.

The gate service is the prison based equivalent of the linkage service, likewise assessing distance from the labour market, identifying barriers to progression and supporting people in accessing training and employment opportunities post their release in the community. The gate service is embedded in the prison multidisciplinary process and is an important part of the release process in participating prisons. There are currently eight TEOs, six whole-time equivalents, in the gate service. Between 2016 and 2020 the gate service received 4,122 referrals. Combined, between 2016 and 2020 the linkage and gate placements for those referrals were 5,027, with 971 in education, 2,056 in training and 2,000 in employment.

The resettlement service supports people in their immediate release. It helps them create realistic resettlement plans while in prison and provides access to essential supports around housing, welfare and medical cards as part of their release. The resettlement service is the main point of contact between the IPS and local authorities, the national medical card unit and the Department of Social Protection. Like the gate service it is embedded in the prison multidisciplinary review process. The resettlement service currently has 12 resettlement co-ordinators, 11 whole-time equivalents. Between 2016 and 2020 the resettlement service received 6,168 referrals of which there were 1,731 housing applications, 1,979 medical card applications and 1,539 welfare supports.

IASIO’s operational services are based on general provision. They are available to all people on probation if deemed suitable by the referring probation officer, as is the case for the linkage service, and open to all sentenced prisoners with some sentence length criteria, as is the case for the gate and resettlement services. As such IASIO’s services are available to members of the Traveller community in prison and as part of probation supervision in the community. Between 2016 and 2020 across IASIO’s three main operational services there were 1,502 referrals for Travellers, of which 1,287 were male and 215 female. In total 306 placements were made, 62 being in education, 195 in training and 49 in employment-related activities. There were 14 in paid employment.

With respect to work with the Traveller community specifically, we liaise with various Traveller organisations in the community on an ongoing basis. We are members of the Traveller in Prison Initiative, TPI. We ran a significant groupwork programme, the midlands Traveller talk group in the Midlands Prison between 2015 and 2018 in partnership with Laois Traveller action group and the IPS, which provided important lessons for Traveller participation and programme organisation in prisons. We have received training from Pavee Point in successfully introducing an ethnic identifier as part of our data collection process. We have a co-operation agreement, facilitated through TPI and the IPS, with Traveller peer support workers covering Limerick, Dóchas, Wheatfield and the Midlands Prisons, the aim of which is to improve engagement and outcomes for members of the Traveller community.

In preparing this submission IASIO colleagues were asked to note some of the issues they come across when working with members of the Traveller community. They reported that trust can be an issue and must be developed over time; with the development of trust, engagement can be very positive. Also noted was that some Travellers decline the service, that is after it is explained to them. With respect to working in prisons, even if engagement was good while in prison, there is often poor engagement post release. It is difficult to maintain contact with members of the Traveller community post release. Low literacy levels and low skill or educational attainment are common. Complex presenting issues can be evident, related to addiction and mental health issues. Travellers often seem reluctant to attend prison education because of reported bad experiences of mainstream education. Training and employment officers report that it is very difficult to organise employment placements. Labour market participation is very low. Not all Travellers express an interest in mainstream employment. The majority of placements for Travellers are on CE schemes, probation projects and community training programmes. While in prison Travellers are less likely to present as homeless.

IASIO continues to develop its services for people in prison and on probation and recognise as part of that development a need to better understand engagement with members of the Traveller community. We have committed to fully implementing the ethnic identifier and to reviewing as part of our current strategic commitments the cultural fit of our services with respect to Travellers. We also aim to co-deliver with Traveller peer support workers an IASIO groupwork programme called Changing Course, the hope here being that it facilitates Traveller participation. That concludes my opening statement and once again I thank the committee.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will now go to members. I call Deputy Joan Collins.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. They were detailed and informative. They also show that the Travelling community in the Prison Service are treated the same as they are in the community, or even worse. We have figures showing how high the population in the Prison Service is but do we know how many reoffend? Is there a figure for that, for both men and women? I would be interested in that. I am also interested in the link between petty crime leading to further crimes, relating to drugs or anything like that, after Travelling men and women go into prison and the effect that has due to linking in with other harder criminals within the prison system. What are the crimes that Traveller women end up in prison for? Are they petty crimes? I would be interested in the types of crimes that they are being put into prison for. Between the gate and linkage services there were approximately 12,600 referrals. Of that, the combined linkage and gate placements were 5,027. That is approximately 40% of those referrals going into education, employment, etc. Mr. Owens made several points about why Travellers coming out of prison do not engage with those services. How much linkage does the Irish Traveller Movement have with those members of the Travelling community that come out of prison? It looks like if they go to the referrals they are in the net but there are many of them who are not in the net. Is there any sort of capture after that situation? Is the recommendation for an effective complaints system in hand? Ms Ní Chinnéide said that the Prison Service and the Department of Justice should work together to ensure that the new internal prisoner complaint mechanism is introduced before the end of 2021. Is it in hand or is it imminent? What can we do as legislators to assist that being put into place? Those are my first few questions.

Mr. Barry Owens:

On the community side of things, linkage TEOs, which are part of the probation funded side of what we do, have ongoing contact with local Traveller organisations around the needs of a person who is referred to them and they work together. The situation from prison to community, which I think is what the Deputy was asking about, is different. We find it very difficult to stay connected with people as they move from prison to the community. We do not fully understand that but that is quite a challenge and it is something we have discussed before with partners. The feedback and what we are experiencing show that even if somebody engages well in prison, we often lose them in the community. I am talking about very good engagement in the prison. The Traveller workshop I mentioned as part of my opening statement had very good engagement and it led to very interesting things in the prison. That group identified its own training. A furniture recycling workshop was developed from it, which they themselves identified, and the IPS provided and paid for it. They went through that and it was all very democratically done and participation and engagement was excellent. However, we still lost track of those people as they moved to the community, so there is a question there. That is a challenge for us and there is work that needs to be done there.

Ms Anne Costello:

On the issue of reoffending, we do not have those figures. I have come across numerous Travellers who have been in and out of the prison system and we use the term "revolving door" because those were the words they used. They leave prison without supports and they are back in again and do not get the support they need while they are in prison. Those supports would include trauma-informed therapies, skills that could help them to earn a living when they come out of prison, addiction services and so on. If the data are analysed, we can look at issues around reoffending. That data could be extracted.

As regards crimes for women, according to the research we did a lot of them were minor enough. They were imprisoned for driving offences, shoplifting or a number of crimes linked to addiction. When women described their stories, they spoke about the level of trauma around close family members and suicide, all their bereavements, moving on to prescribed drugs and then that leading into harder drugs. That was the story we got generally from the women. A lot of these issues could be dealt with-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Costello mentioned driving offences. Has she any idea what kind of offences those are? Are we talking about driving without insurance or something?

Ms Anne Costello:

It is a combination of different ones.

Ms Maria Joyce:

In the work we are doing with peer support in the Dóchas Centre, the women have talked quite a bit about the crimes that have gotten them there. Some of them feel they are on the petty crime end of it. Some of the driving offences are driving without tax or insurance but sometimes these are first offences and the women felt that a non-custodial sentence would have addressed the level of the crime, as opposed to a custodial sentence. There is a strong sense from many of the women we have engaged with in the Dóchas Centre that it is one option for a Traveller in the criminal justice system and another outcome for a non-Traveller, where there are parallels in the crime that has been committed. That is something that needs to be addressed because too many Travellers, including Traveller women, are ending up with custodial sentences where a non-custodial sentence could have addressed the issue. That would also have ensured that the issues around the revolving door policy or practice could be addressed quicker with supports outside.

I will pick up on one or two of the questions that were asked, particularly around engagement with supports on leaving prison that may not be within the Traveller organisations and are more linked to the prisons. Some of the women we have engaged with in the Dóchas Centre are clearly saying that they do not see themselves in the responses of any of those services. I am not saying that work is not being done to look at how we can make these spaces more culturally appropriate, where they feel that there is something for them in it. Work is beginning to be done in that regard but that is something that has come up. Women have left the prison and gone to the service but say they did not get anything from it. Again, where Traveller organisations are engaging and trying to support, that is one part of a piece of work.

They are so stretched for resources and looking at trying to address other issues and this is just an additional piece of work. Still, they are trying to engage and support Travellers who are re-engaging in the community but there are a number of reasons.

A final point I would make is on paper, in relation to services and prison, it looks good. The reality though is it is not the same in terms of how Travellers and Traveller women can access some of those supports and services. Regarding some of the internal stuff around psychological supports, there is a real need to ensure culturally-appropriate psychological supports and other culturally-appropriate supports are being resourced within the prisons. Some of that is starting to happen but it is a tiny aspect and it does need much more in terms of those critical supports when looking at issues of trauma that are really deep-seated. The suicide rate for Traveller women is six times higher and it is seven times higher for Traveller men. Few Travellers have not been directly affected by suicide of family members, friends or multiple persons. A survey by the Community Foundation for Ireland, CFI, a few years ago showed that in all of the Travellers who engaged in that research, there were multiple layers where they were coming into contact with the community regarding suicide, including direct family members and friends. Multiple layers of all those need to be addressed in these issues.

Ms Anne Costello:

Mr. Owens made a point around trust and it is a huge issue, especially for Travellers in prison. It is for that reason we are saying that particularly for the Traveller women, we need one caseworker who will work with the women all the way along, that is, pre-imprisonment, during imprisonment and post-prison. That person will introduce them and build confidence with the services. We are not looking for new services for them but sometimes they need that introduction to Mr. Owens and other people like him to be assured this service is not going to discriminate against them and it will work for them. It is a small investment but it would have a huge impact on Traveller women.

Ms Fíona Ní Chinnéide:

I am just going to add some figures. I thank the Deputy for the questions. The importance of ethnic equality monitoring comes through from the inputs here. For example, the Self-Harm Assessment and Data Analysis, SADA, studies into self-harm incidence in prisons do not track ethnic equality monitoring. What we know is women are more than eight times more likely to engage in self-harm and people on remand are two and a half times more likely than people serving a sentence but we cannot match that up with what Ms Joyce and Ms Costello have so eloquently described to the committee. Another example to echo what Ms Costello said about the prison recidivism rates is that we do not have that breakdown. It would be so important . However, we do know people sentenced to prison for between three and six months prior to their release had the highest probability of reoffending within one year of release and, therefore, the highest rates of early reoffending are among those imprisoned for short sentences which, by definition, are for less serious offences. This again just adds evidence to support what Ms Costello and Ms Joyce are saying.

On women in the Dóchas Centre, we were struck that in the 2019 Office of the Inspector of Prisons report, at the time of her visit she said 24% of women in the centre were Travellers, which is very high. We also know that before the pandemic between 25% and 30% of women under sentence in prison were again serving short sentences of less than 12 months. This is in contrast to men where it is in the region of 15%. The numbers in prison have been reduced quite substantially in response to the pandemic. We welcome that. We hope it is not a short-term solution. We hope it will be maintained in the future. In September, 12% of all prisoners under sentence were serving sentences of less than 12 months. We welcome that but it should go further.

The other issue we have not addressed here is the high number of women detained on remand, including Traveller women. The IPS has done detailed analysis of this and perhaps it will be able to share it with the committee. The Department of Justice has committed to examining this persistent use of prison. In the region of three quarters of committals to prison under sentences every year are for sentences of less than 12 months, which means the legislation designed to increase the use of community-based sanctions as an alternative is not seeming effective but we do not know why. It could relate to housing, mental health, addictions. There is a range. The Department is engaging in this review and we welcome that. It is also examining the gender element to that as well, which is positive.

To pick up on the prison complaints point, in 2016, the then Inspector of Prisons, Judge Micheal Reilly, launched a report, the recommendations of which were accepted by then Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Francis Fitzgerald MEP. It said there was a need for overarching review of the prison complaints system and that the ombudsman should be introduced as an external appeals mechanism. We know some work has been undertaken in the Prison Service in terms of training and putting different systems in place. However, the new, revised complaints system has not yet been published. There were commitments made about the end of 2019 and the end of 2020. Our understanding now is the hold-up is because it requires an amendment to the prison rules and that the backlog of legislation, perhaps pandemic-related, is the reason for the delay. At any time, but particularly during a pandemic when there are fewer feet walking the prison landings, we think that should be an absolute priority.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank everyone for their contributions. I found them to be interesting. There is much food for thought. One of the big problems, based on the comments of Ms Joyce, is the follow-up services and having a proper case worker following this up. That applies whether it is in the prison itself, as people may not be engaging properly for different reasons, but especially when they get out. It is about how can we tie them into some services. Does Pavee Point have a role in dealing with that or directing a lot of these people coming outside, because that is always going to be very hard?

The other thing I found interesting was racism within prison. We know there is racism outside prison but by God it must be an awful lot worse in prison. Therefore the complaints procedure, as was said, needs to be much more robust. It needs to be looked at and acts of racism need to be recorded so we get a picture of how bad it is. That is not just for Travellers but for everyone, though we especially need to get a picture of how that plays out. I think it was said that by 2021 there would be more done to address that issue and I would like to hear a bit more about that. The media and especially Facebook can be awful. We have seen how much damage they can do. We have seen the way much of the media portrays Travellers but then when one reads some of the stuff put up on Facebook, it is absolutely appalling.

I was wondering about education. Are we getting people to tie in fairly well in education, particularly in prison? Are they tying in to the services that are available there or are we struggling there?

Are Travellers kept together as much as possible in prison or is it a case of them generally being mixed into the prison population? Is it a policy to try to keep people within their own community close to each other? I would like to hear a bit more about that.

The mental health issue is obviously a major problem.

I presume that we have psychiatrists who attend to people with serious mental health issues. I would love to know how much they engage. Are we fairly active in looking at this? As the witnesses noted, suicide is a major problem in society in general but is far higher in the Traveller community. Therefore, I would love to see plenty of engagement with mental health workers in that regard.

It is bad enough being in prison. How do we deal with Travellers with disabilities in prison? Are there case workers or people who specialise in looking after those with disabilities?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All of our guests probably have answers to offer on this. We will begin with Ms Costello and work our way through them. There are about 15 minutes remaining and, in that context, I would like to ask a few questions before we wind up. If our guests keep their answers fairly focused, we can come back in on other issues. I want to give Deputies Joan Collins and Ellis another opportunity to contribute. Perhaps our guests might make their answers fairly snappy.

Ms Anne Costello:

As stated earlier, many Travellers prison say that prison was their first positive experience of education. There are some really good teachers in prisons who work with them. We do not support the idea of segregated classes for Travellers or anything of that nature. Peer support can be very strong. If one Traveller attends school, he or she will encourage others to come down. That is often the way. They assure them that it is not like school was because that is where they had the negative association and the shame and failure associated with it. Where it works, it works really well but the issue is that many Travellers are not coming down to school at all because they do not see the value of it. They are not convinced that they will not have that same experience. Sometimes they do not see the benefits of it because they do not think it will have a significant impact. As a result, we need to do a lot more work. June Edwards, who is a Traveller liaison teacher with the ETB, will speak later in the afternoon. It has piloted initiatives across prisons in Dublin where each prison has a teacher dedicated to putting the spotlight on Travellers. This has been hugely successful. It is where they just encourage them down. They have adapted some of the curriculum to make it more relevant to Travellers and have included stories about Travellers in literacy, but we need a lot more. There is insufficient focus on literacy in prisons. This is where, unfortunately, many Travellers in prison are. They need support in respect of literacy.

Ms Ní Chinnéide probably has more information on psychiatry but I know there are long waiting lists to access counselling services. Again, at our most recent conference, Travellers spoke about the harmful impact until the Traveller Counselling Service came in and how they felt somebody understood them and was someone they could talk to. That is why we really want to encourage more of that. Again, where they access the services, they are usually very good but it is the waiting list that is a problem.

Ms Maria Joyce:

It is a very damning indictment of our education system if the first positive experience of education for many Travellers is in prison. That aside, it still does not mean it has the critical outcomes that are needed. Good work is happening but there is also much more that can be done. I know from the work we did in Dóchas that some of the women will say that they go down and the class is full or if they have to wait for another service before they go to the school and the lists are full, they cannot get in. Again, it is on paper as being a service but having real accessibility is another kettle of fish.

Another point about education is that it is really important that educators in prison are not steering Travellers into particular types of courses that are stereotypical or do not challenge them to address what they need to address. We have seen that where Travellers have availed of opportunities within prison and externally, they have excelled but there is not enough of that. There is a degree to which they will be steered towards a certain type of course, so it is important that some of that stuff is addressed.

Regarding some of the points about racism and the online level of racism, when it comes to Travellers, online racism and hate are at a whole other level. As we all know in this country, the legislation was not fit for purpose in terms of addressing this matter. Hopefully, with the new hate crime and hate speech legislation that is being progressed through the system, it will be addressed. It also needs to address the issues facing Travellers who are incarcerated in prisons but it will not. Recently, we saw a private Facebook page involving former and current prison officers and gardaí that contained hate and racism towards Travellers. These people are working in prisons and are in direct contact with Travellers. Accountability is another critical issue. Whatever mechanisms in the new hate crime and hate speech Bills that are introduced need to take account of those in the prison system and ensure accountability. These are agents of the State. We should not be talking about the issue of discrimination and racism towards Travellers in prison. I know there is a level of it from other prisoners but it should not exist in those who are governing.

There is a need for targeted supports and resources to address the issues that have created the disproportionate number of Travellers in prison. Having said that, it is really important we do not go down the route of a segregated or separate system because that has never served Travellers well in this country no matter what form it has taken, be it in education or anything else. It is really important that there are targeted measures to address particular issues, particularly the experience of racism and discrimination.

Regarding the complaints system, we have had numerous discussions with some of the women in Dóchas who felt they could not or would not make complaints because it was not safe. There was a real fear of it being traced back to a particular individual. If confidentiality cannot be assured in a new complaints system, there is something wrong. I know that there was a CCTV camera in Dóchas close enough to where the complaint box was at one point. No woman who is trying to make a complaint wants it to come back to her with consequences. She would be very fearful about it. There is a need to ensure more culturally appropriate responses. Regarding the point about mental health supports within the system, there are services but there are large waiting lists. Where we have seen services that can come in and respond directly to the needs and allow Travellers to see themselves recognised and their issues recognised - not just because they are Travellers - with specific services like the Traveller Counselling Service, they have had an impact but it is not enough and there needs to be more of that.

Ms Fíona Ní Chinnéide:

We strongly welcome the regular publication of education data by the ETBs and the Prison Service. In terms of mental health, we know from a question answered by the Minister in March that there were 1,200 people on the waiting list for access to a prison psychology service.

That is a third of the prison population. That is a population that has, in any case, a higher prevalence of mental health issues. Within that, one has members of the Traveller community who have much higher levels of self-harm and mental health issues. It is that intersectional piece that really needs to be examined.

We know that an additional sum of just over €1 million was assigned in the budget Estimates just now for the Prison Service to support increased provision of mental health services in prison. In part of our budget submission with Mental Health Reform, we had sought €5.5 million because that was our estimate of the need. That funding is certainly welcome but is probably not enough.

A positive measure is the establishment of the high-level task force on mental health, addictions and imprisonment established by the two Ministers across the Departments of Justice and Health, together with the two Ministers of State with responsibility for mental health and the national drugs strategy, respectively. It is that interagency piece which is probably the most hopeful, particularly their commitment to there being actions. The ethnic equality monitoring piece would be a very specific action that that task force might undertake.

On disability, the IPRT published a large-scale research report in 2020 on people with disabilities in prison. I wish to acknowledge the openness of the Irish Prison Service in letting the researchers in because the findings were quite dismaying. The service was very open and really wants to address this issue. The report examined disability across all four forums of physical, intellectual, sensory and psychosocial disabilities. Broadly, the recommendations were across the inappropriateness of the physical prison environment and what needs to happen there. On communications, it is about ensuring that people with disabilities understand the prison rules, for example, and are not at risk of unintentionally breaking prison rules and ending up being punished without really understanding what they are doing wrong. High emphasis should be put on awareness and training among staff. Again, this also comes back to this point of involving peers in the development and delivery of this training. I would be very happy to send a copy of this report to the joint committee following this meeting.

Mr. Barry Owens:

I will mention a number of points that occurred to me after Deputy Ellis’s statements and questions.

One thing is that we should consider sentencing. Earlier in this discussion we talked about the many short-term sentences that Travellers serve. We have to be practical about what is possible within a short-term sentence. If people are serving a continuous sentence or a number of short ones, with not too much time in the community, then it is limited as to what can be achieved in a prison. It is a very disruptive kind of existence. As to the type of access to services, if somebody is serving a number of short-term sentences continually, what can be achieved by an education unit or by a service like ours is quite limited. This is especially the case if one thinks about something like literacy. It is hard to learn to read and write and we just forget about what it was like. This is probably a very difficult thing and probably takes a long time to do.

What is achievable? It suggests to me that prison should not be seen as separate but as a completely continuous mechanism between prison and community. What we do in prison needs to be reinforced in the community. Of all of the things mentioned today in Traveller supports, access to services is very important. There should be some plan which is not just about the prison but is shared with the community. This idea of shared plans, of people leaving prison and going to the community and vice versabecomes very important. It means that somebody else can take this up on the outside. We have a protocol referral agreement between ourselves and Intreo, for instance, and we are trying to standardise what we collect and what we share and how we share. This is a small thing but it is useful.

We have to think about what is possible in the time available to us and how this happens in terms of the rotation. We should be realistic about what is achievable for those people because to say that one should read and write also is perhaps to introduce too much to them. We should identify smaller milestones towards everything, such as employment, being literate and numerate, whatever the case may be. There are very interesting steps in the process which are valuable and if one recognises this in the person, one gets buy-in as one goes along.

Guidance is also an issue. Guidance for us in the linkage and gate services, in the first instance, opens up the space to imagine alternatives. It is often the first time that anybody has been asked what they want and what stands in their way. It is certainly not about being pushed down a particular way. Often, and this is true of the general prison population, it has very conservative or stereotyped types of ideas about progress and success, based upon their community, to which they might aspire.

You are working through all of that but for the gate service in the prisons, since this is what we are talking about, that space is opened up to an imagined alternative and then the question, and that is a pathway. The question then becomes how does one do it and what practical steps are necessary to achieve that.

It does work. There is one case of a person from the Traveller community who is now accessing Sligo IT and that was following a guidance process. That shows that it is possible but it just does not happen often enough.

On education units, based on my previous comments about the sentence link and so on, these are obviously central to the whole thing and of great importance. They do not, however, operate in a vacuum but are linked to the rest of the prison. They should be seen as the centre of the wheel on which there are spokes. We should all be feeding into education. There are so many opportunities and educational moments within prison that we need to share responsibility for. Guidance itself is an educational process, if one thinks about it, as somebody is exploring what is possible. It is so important because if one thinks about the future and one identifies something that animates the person and which that person thinks for the first time ever is possible, then that organises how he or she sees the present. It will in a way change that person’s perception, perhaps, about what he or she might think about addiction and support services, which the person may see differently in this case. This is something that we need to develop further but is possible.

There is a question about segregation which is a very difficult issue. I am not quite sure what the policy from the IPS is on segregation. I believe that some amount of self-segregation takes place which may be because of comfort; I am not quite sure. It seems to me that members of the Traveller community are mostly together in the prison which is something to be dealt with.

In the group work programme, one talks about creating a safe space in which members of the Traveller community might talk about things and this is something where we could provide an opportunity for Travellers to do that and at the same time not corral them into education settings, say, in a classroom just for Travellers or perhaps to channel ways down.

We need to get that balance between the things. Sometimes we need group work which is just for Travellers because there are issues that pertain to them and at other times general provision needs to be mixed for some things but we need to be clear about it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are in the 60-second question time now because we have approximately four to five minutes left.

What we have heard all afternoon has been very interesting. But for literally two to three minutes, I would like to come at this issue from a slightly different point of view. Is prison the answer in the first place? Could we do a great deal more through community service and if I might say so, not only community service in the conventional sense but community education? In other words, if somebody has reoffended in a small way then he or she has to attend a process of community education rather than community service, or diversion programmes to put it another way. This would be to deal with people who are being sentenced for two or three months who should really not wind up in prison.

The next question, and I would like a "Yes" or "No" answer to these, is that the idea of prisons, as I understand it, is for the safety of society. If people are going in and coming out repeatedly and doing worse things and coming back in for longer sentences, this idea is certainly not achieving that aim.

The next thing is try to help people to reform or to avoid crime in the future. Is our prison model actually serving the purposes for which prison is determined to be for?

I have a further question, and as I said these all require "Yes" or "No" answers. We can tease these out in the second part but I believe it is something that we need to reflect upon. Are we arriving at a syndrome whereby people serve sentences for three months and then for six months or, in other words, that the sentences actually get longer and longer and in some cases, the offences become ever more serious and therefore, this has a negative effect rather than a positive one? Is there a better way of doing this that would avoid this syndrome?

Specifically in relation to women in prison, and Traveller women in particular, should there be an open prison?

I seek a "Yes" or "No" on that. Is homelessness the real issue for some, and would the requirement be more for sheltered accommodation than conventional prison?

The third issue is one we have not discussed much. When fathers are taken to prison and particularly when mothers are taken to prison, what effect does that have on the children? Is it negative or positive? I seek "Yes" or "No" answers as I have to curtail this session and want to finish it at 3.05 p.m. We can continue this discussion. What I really want to find out as Chair of this session is whether these are relevant issues that we need to consider when writing our report, or do we just stick strictly to what we have debated up to now? I call Ms Costello first.

Ms Anne Costello:

Yes, we definitely support non-custodial sentencing or short sentences. There is no question about that. It is a sad indictment of society that prison is a safer place than the community for many women, not just Traveller women. On the revolving door, we have often spoken to people who went to prison for minor crimes. They got into the wrong company in prison or prison became normalised, and then the type of crime became more serious. Without getting supports, it was just a revolving door. Regarding the open prison, yes, there should definitely be an open prison for women. There is a need for more sheltered accommodation, but also supports. That is where the link work we are speaking about could play a vital role for Traveller women - linking them into supports in respect of their addictions, homelessness or whatever issues there are so they can be diverted from prison.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the mothers and the fathers?

Ms Anne Costello:

Yes, for certain. People say: "Expose young people to prison and then they will not go there." Many Travellers in prison have been to prison to visit their fathers, and now they are in prison. That does not work. People are much more likely to end up in prison if their parents have been in prison. The huge concern Traveller women have if they are going to prison is what will happen to children, whether they will be taken into care and whether they will ever get them back.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The time is up. I will have to be very strict. I call Ms Joyce.

Ms Maria Joyce:

I echo what Ms Costello said. There is a need for an open prison. The prison system has to do more in terms of community service and community education. It needs to do more to keep people with lesser sentences for minor crimes out of the prison system so it does not become a revolving door for them in that regard.

Yes, issues such as homelessness, poverty and negative experiences of education where they have not had opportunities with regard to third level and ongoing education or employment of course have impacts for women in prison. I echo what has already been said. The point about the intergenerational impact in regard to the cycle of prison is very real for some. Certainly, parents in prison, either one or the other or both, can only be a negative experience for their children. We have seen it time and again when Traveller women are talking about their experiences in prison and the families and children they are leaving at home. It is a very significant issue. When they have children who may already be in care, that will create additional barriers on their release to trying to engage with their children, or if the children have gone into care as a direct result of them going into prison. It is not about ensuring the care of children; it is about ensuring contact with parents and a service that is not approaching it from a perspective where there is discrimination and racism in terms of how services are delivered.

Ms Fíona Ní Chinnéide:

I will be fast. Prison should be a sanction of last resort and reserved for serious offenders. The emphasis should be on exhausting non-custodial alternatives in the community. As a society, we seem to have no problem sending people back to prison repeatedly. The same approach could be taken to community service. If one fails once, the next alternative should not be prison but to try it again. There is a need for more examination of the disproportionate outcomes and difference for women. For example, the community return programme is a very successful programme whereby prisoners serving long sentences can return to the community at the 50% mark to complete their sentences in the community. The statistics are slightly out of date, but approximately 90% of males on the programme successfully complete the programme but there is a 60% return to prison rate for women. That is a big differential and is most likely linked to complex issues such as housing, mental health and addictions, but that has to be examined. It should not just be examined but also addressed. The findings must be acted on.

"Yes" is the answer to an open prison for women, but only within the frame of prison as a last resort. What we do not want is another institution opened that is another residential centre for women who would be better responded to in the community. There is absolute policy consensus that offending by women generally is better responded to in the community.

Finally, I will address the question about the children of people in prison. It is very complex and it is important that we do not talk about it as if it is a predictor, because children are different with different resilience and so forth. What is common among these children is experience of trauma, separation, stigma and poverty. We must support those children to have better outcomes in the long run.

Mr. Barry Owens:

Prison is a last resort. We agree on non-custodial sentences. The answer is "Yes" to open prisons for female prisoners. I would extend that to male prisoners also. Open prisons are very positive, keeping prisons very separated from the community. Making it as porous as possible is better, so it is "Yes" to open prisons in general. The family question is complex. When working on resettlement and reintegration, sometimes the family can be the source of the trouble. Yes, if everything is working fine, keep families together. However, it is a very complex area. Sometimes when we are working on the resettlement and reintegration back in the community that family piece is highly complex and it can present all kinds of issues. It is not always clear and it is not always good but, yes, generally it is better to keep relationships intact.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will conclude this session and we will take a five-minute break. I thank all the contributors. We could have spent a lot more time on this but we just do not have that time. It is an issue we will address in our reports. It is one that is very central to the work we are trying to do, which is to deal with the challenges faced by the Traveller community and how things could be done better with better outcomes for Travellers, in particular, and for society in general. We will return in five minutes.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Chairman, I have a question before we conclude. Have the statements gone up for the public?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will be going up.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A journalist contacted me to ask if they had gone up. The journalist is interested in what has been debated today.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will go up on the website immediately after the meeting.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will tell her that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will take a five-minute break.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I extend a warm welcome to our witnesses for this second session. From the Irish Prison Service, I welcome Mr. Fergal Black, director of care and rehabilitation, and Mr. Séamus Beirne, equality, diversity and inclusion lead; from the Probation Service, I welcome Mr. Mark Wilson, director, and Ms Una Doyle, director of operations; and from the City of Dublin Education and Training Board, I welcome Mr. Stephen O'Connor, head of prison education, and Ms June Edwards, lead of the Travellers in Prison Initiative.

Our first session went a little over time so I hope we can keep the opening statements to five minutes. The statements will be published in full. I invite Mr. Fergal Black of the Irish Prison Service to make his opening statement.

Mr. Fergal Black:

I thank the Vice Chairman. Today, there are 3,838 persons in custody. People in prisons, while isolated for a period of time, remain an integral part of our communities. Prisons are an extension of our communities and issues that impact people in the wider community also affect those in custody in the same way.

Diversity exists within our population. Today, there are people in custody from the ages of 18 to 88. There are almost 600 people in prison who are not identified as Irish, with more than 200 prisoners from outside Europe. Relevant to today’s discussion, we know that a disproportionately large number of people in custody recognise themselves as Travellers.

The director general of the Irish Prison Service, Ms Caron McCaffrey, attended the recent Travellers in Prison Initiative, TPI, national conference and spoke on behalf of the Irish Prison Service. Ms McCaffrey's feedback was that she appreciated the opportunity to hear directly about the lived experiences of Travellers who have been in prison. The powerful messages she heard about their experiences can help us to move forward to become a more aware and inclusive prison service.

I acknowledge our partners in the TPI, the St. Stephen’s Green Trust and the Probation Service and commend the co-operative approach taken to moving forward the issues that arise for Travellers in the criminal justice sector. Through our partnership over the past six years, we have taken some positive steps forward. Peer support services have been developed in four prisons and mediation in eight prisons, which we hope to develop further now that Covid-19 restrictions are reducing. Traveller liaison teachers have been identified, especially in the Dublin area, to support greater access to prison education services and the adaptation of education services for Travellers. Traveller pride events have been hosted and awareness training was introduced for new prison staff on the issues arising for Travellers and areas of discrimination. Electronic means have been developed to capture ethnicity information in a systematic way. Traveller volunteers were trained for the Red Cross programme in prisons.

The Irish Prison Service acknowledges that we have more work to do with regard to equality and diversity and to prevent discrimination in our service. In late 2019, a new equality, diversity and inclusion lead for the Irish Prison Service, Mr. Séamus Beirne, was appointed and he joins us today. Mr. Beirne's role has recently been broadened to include responsibility for services for Travellers in prison. Broadening our knowledge of the lived experiences of prisoners from all backgrounds in relation to their experience of the Irish prison system will form an integral part of the equality and diversity brief in 2022. The Irish Prison Service intends to carry out a survey of prisoners in 2022 to get a greater insight to the lived experiences, so we can introduce targeted local and national responses in areas where we need to develop. Moreover, the Irish Prison Service is continuing to raise awareness amongst staff about Traveller issues. Mr. Beirne recently commenced a number of roadshows with staff in prisons and we expect that this is the beginning of a number of continuing conversations with staff on this area.

The Irish Prison Service has set out to deliver bespoke initiatives for prisoners targeting different groups such as older prisoners and younger prisoners. There are a number of specific initiatives aimed at supporting members of the Traveller community in our prisons. I will mention some of these briefly. A successful mediation programme has been in operation in Castlerea Prison since 2016. This programme is a partnership between the midlands Traveller conflict mediation service, the Red Cross, the Travellers in Prison Initiative and Castlerea Prison school. It is a hugely successful programme aimed at conflict awareness.

Mediation is an effective way of resolving disputes and can resolve even the most complex, intractable disputes. The programme has since been extended to other prisons, including Midlands Prison, Loughan House, the Dóchas Centre and Cork Prison. While the roll-out has been impacted by the Covid-19 pandemic, a number of prison education centres have expressed a willingness to introduce a similar programme in the future.

Throughout each sentence, we must take steps to ensure we give prisoners the best possible opportunity to reintegrate themselves into society by imparting life skills to put them back on the road to being good citizens again. Prisons are full of poor people. They are not just poor economically, but also poor emotionally, educationally, socially and in the context of their health status. Many have difficulty regulating their emotions. Typically, people committed to custody are young men aged 18 to 35 who have fallen out of education or training and who have fallen out of society into prison. The most effective intervention with someone in prison is the relationship with staff. This builds relationships. The relationship is an instrument to take offenders into a space where they begin to own some of their behaviours and take responsibility.

I will mention the first aid programme known as the Red Cross programme. In recent years, this peer-led programme has seen success in our prisons. It was introduced in 2009 under a partnership between the Irish Red Cross, the Irish Prison Service, Education and Training Boards Ireland and the Probation Service. This innovative programme trains prisoners as Red Cross volunteers who develop projects aimed at improving their community, the prison community. The idea is to learn in the classroom and educate their peers on the landings. The notion of peer-to-peer education among a prisoner population is a powerful one since prisoners will listen to other prisoners before they will listen to prison staff. To date, more than 1,500 prisoners have been trained in the Red Cross programme and many of these have been members of the Traveller community, who note that the peer-led approach is particularly attractive to them. It also allows the opportunity for Travellers in prison to take a more proactive role in looking after their health and well-being and the well-being of others in their prison community.

I will highlight some of the initiatives undertaken. With the Red Cross, we have developed a conflict resolution workshop in Castlerea, which is facilitated by Traveller men and aims to develop intervention skills and address some of the commonest issues that can lead to Traveller-on-Traveller violence in prisons. Volunteer groups in many prisons have participated in projects aimed at encouraging Travellers to attend school and to speak openly about their experiences of school in prison. During the Covid pandemic, work by the Red Cross volunteers with Travellers in prisons has been important in respect of vaccine awareness and promotion. Peer educators serve as positive role models that reinforce behavioural change, and peer education has been recognised as an important tool to educate populations that are hard to reach. To this end, work is ongoing to facilitate a Red Cross course within an identified Traveller group in the wider community. Working with our colleagues in the Probation Service, we hope to identify Traveller Red Cross volunteers who have left prison and who will work with Travellers in the community though the Travellers in Prison Initiative.

I will briefly mention the opening of the equine unit in Castlerea Prison. This is an exciting and innovative collaboration between the Irish Prison Service and the horse community. The programme being run in the equine centre, which is the first of its kind in Europe, will target all prisoners, but early indications have pointed to a significant level of interest in the programme from Traveller men in Castlerea and in other locations. The programme commenced in August and prisoners from Castlerea Prison attend the equine centre, which is outside the walls, daily. We currently have seven horses and are engaged in the horse care and welfare programme. The course, which is delivered in collaboration with the education unit in Castlerea Prison, is specially designed for delivery to students with literacy issues and is delivered visually with voice-over, assisted by the use of diagrams.

Importantly, this is an accredited programme which has been endorsed by the Racing Academy and Centre of Education, RACE, the organisation which trains jockeys. The equine programme can have a positive impact on physical and mental well-being, offer preparation for employment and, ultimately, make the community safer through a reduction in reoffending. It can teach compassion through the care of a living animal, and we are confident that, through our association with the horse racing industry, which has raised more than €120,000 towards this innovative programme, we can gain employment in the industry for prisoners who engage in the programme as stablehands and so on.

I again thank the committee for the opportunity to participate and I am happy to answer any questions after my colleagues have spoken.

Mr. Mark Wilson:

I am pleased to have the opportunity to talk to the committee today about some of the important work we in the Probation Service do in the area of social inclusion and in addressing the critical challenges faced by the Traveller community engaged in our justice system today.

For those members who are less familiar with the work of the Probation Service, we are the lead organisation overseeing the assessment and management of offenders in the community. We have approximately 400 staff based in more than 50 prison and community settings nationwide. On any one day, the service is engaged with more than 9,000 people in the community and up to 2,000 prisoners in custody. Of those being supervised in the community, some 1,500 are serving post-release supervision orders. This equates to 50% of today's prison population.

I am pleased to speak alongside my colleagues who have spoken today. Effective and meaningful collaboration with these partners and others across the justice sector is critical to realising the Probation Service's vision of "creating safer and more inclusive communities" by enabling those referred to us to change their behaviour and make good on the harm they have caused.

Earlier this year, we published our new strategy statement, which outlines our key strategic targets for the next three years. The promotion of inclusion is firmly placed at the centre of our vision and our work. As a core pillar of our strategy, we are striving to become a more inclusive organisation by delivering fair and accessible services to all who come into contact with us. We also see it as our duty to identify and seek to remove barriers that may prevent reintegration, rehabilitation and access to life opportunities, enabling each of us to participate fully and positively in society. We incorporate working with the Traveller community as an integral element of this approach.

As a service, we have worked extensively with the Traveller community over many years, both through the work of probation officers and via our national network of 60 community organisations, to which we currently provide €16 million in funding, representing approximately one third of our budget. Many of these projects have a long history of providing services directly to Travellers and have been successful in tailoring their programmes and supports to this community. I hope to have an opportunity to speak further about some of these projects at a later point today.

In analysing our data, we are acutely aware there are a highly disproportionate number of Travellers under probation supervision today. As has been stated, while Travellers represent less than 1% of the total population of the State, they represent 11.3% of the Probation Service caseload. The over-representation here is stark and mirrors similar findings elsewhere within the justice system.

In 2014, following a report published by the Irish Penal Reform Trust, and as my colleague, Mr. Black, has mentioned, we partnered with the St. Stephen's Green Trust to establish the Travellers in Prison Initiative, TPI. This has been instrumental in helping us, as a national service, to address some of the key challenges and difficulties being experienced by Travellers under probation supervision. We have worked extensively with the TPI in the area of ethnic data collection to improve our data accuracy and consistency. Our aim is to be able to use these data more effectively to monitor outcomes and be able to propose evidence-based responses that will enhance our approach in working with people from the Traveller ethnicity. The TPI has been supporting our staff to approach ethnic identification in a culturally sensitive and appropriate manner. Our objective here is to ensure our service users feel at ease throughout this process and understand that data will remain confidential, only being used to enhance knowledge and improve services.

This year we also worked with the TPI to deliver a series of bespoke cultural awareness training sessions for probation officers and community service supervisors. This training encouraged staff to reflect on and examine their own attitudes and behaviours and challenged them to consider subconscious biases. The training placed a strong emphasis on user voice and proved highly insightful. Another area of recent development has been our work in evaluating how we, as a service, can adapt our pre-sentence assessment reports, which we prepare for the criminal courts, to better account for the Traveller experience.

As part of our strategy, we intend to publish guidelines that can be utilised by probation staff to ensure a more culturally sensitive approach to the preparation of such reports. In addition, the Probation Service and the Irish Prison Service continue to play a central role in supporting the Department of Justice's Working to Change: Social Enterprise and Employment Strategy 2021-23, which launched last November. The strategy sets out a collaborative approach for supporting employment options for people with convictions. It aims to remove the systemic barriers faced so people can make sustainable changes. It builds on the solid foundation of employment supports already in place.

I am pleased the TPI actively participated in the development of the strategy. Members of the Traveller community were identified as a key stakeholder group within the strategy and it is recognised that ongoing consultation, engagement and co-design is required if sustainable outcomes are to be achieved. As chair of the social enterprise steering group, I am pleased to note the very positive progress being achieved across many of the 46 actions in the strategy.

I am satisfied the Probation Service has made positive progress in recent years in working more effectively with the Traveller community. I recognise more work must be done and we must continue with that. In keeping with our strategic pillar of inclusion, additional upcoming priorities include the following items. Next month we will launch a new research report which examines the misuse of drugs and alcohol among people on probation supervision in Ireland. The research, developed by Dr. Louise Rooney, acknowledges an over-representation of Travellers within the Probation Service caseload and includes culturally relevant findings. Such findings will inform our work into the future. We remain committed to enhancing gender-informed practices by working with our partners across the justice sector. In this context, we will work on targeted responses and programmes that aim to enhance support for female Travellers in custody and in their return to the community. We also remain committed to ensuring the Traveller voice and user experience is central to the development and delivery of our services and training. In hearing those voices, we recognise the importance of listening. We will aim to provide a response that is informed and sensitive to the cultural context, norms and values that are intrinsic to the lives of the Traveller community. Finally, we look forward to expanding our collaboration with our partners, the TPI, the Irish Association for Social Inclusion Opportunities, IASIO, the St. Stephen's Green Trust, the Irish Prison Service, and other colleagues to ensure the voice of the Traveller community is represented, heard and understood within the criminal justice system.

I thank members once again for the opportunity to speak to them today. I look forward to taking questions later in the session.

Mr. Stephen O'Connor:

It is a great pleasure to be here today to talk on behalf of the City of Dublin Education and Training Board about our service. According to the 2016 census, 57.2% of male Travellers had only primary school education, a figure four times higher than the general population. Only 13% of Traveller girls completed second level education whereas for the settled community the figure is 69%. Some 1% of Travellers progressed to third level education and they made up just 0.1% of the total student body. These are just some of the stark statistics which tell a story of generational, institutionalised disadvantage, the result of years of failed policies and neglect. In this short submission, I would like to highlight just one important cause of this lamentable situation, namely, the issue of cultural identity and how it acts as a major barrier to the progress of our Traveller learners.

In 2010, a report by Maria Campbell and Niamh Hourigan identified the depth of prejudice Travellers encounter daily as a major contributory factor to members of the Travelling community not realising their potential as learners. They further contended that "mainstream educational and workplace contexts are dominated by the values, behaviours and authority structures of the settled community". In other words, for Travellers, school is a construct of the settled community, owing little to their lived experiences and their cultural norms. Moreover, the lack of job opportunities for Travellers removes a compelling motive for pursuing an educational pathway. As the report goes on to observe, Travellers feel an enormous stigma attached to their cultural identity, and 20% of the Travellers spoken to as part of the study who had participated in the workforce or further education had hidden their Traveller identity from co-workers or fellow students.

In response to this, the CDETB educational service to prisons has put in place a number of simple measures which are designed to promote a more culturally responsive environment within our prison education centres. To underpin this work, we have asked a teacher within each centre to become a Traveller champion, to liaise with and advise head teachers on Traveller issues, to identify individual needs, and actively to encourage Travellers to attend classes. We have also asked a teacher to lead and co-ordinate our efforts across the service.

If we are to make a real impact in improved educational outcomes for Travellers in our prisons, we must start with ourselves as providers. As has been pointed out to us by the representatives of the Travelling community and by academic research on many occasions, those who deliver our services themselves need to engage in training and education so they can recognise those cultural barriers which impact on the educational progression of Traveller learners. We must listen to our learners and learn from those who have experienced the reality of discrimination and inequality at first hand, and we must question our own values and beliefs.

In this respect, in June 2019, with the support of the Travellers in Prison Initiative, three CDETB teachers undertook a two-day introduction to equality and anti-discrimination issues delivered by Maynooth University. The course concentrated on themes such as prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping, values and ideologies of superiority and their role in creating and replicating inequality. The course also looked at the legislative frameworks and key organisations relating to equality in Ireland.

Finally, our staff explored the possibilities of addressing inequality as teachers in the prison system. We have also been instrumental in inviting various Traveller organisations into our education centres, and we have learned much about what we need to do to further educational progress for our Traveller learners. Through our work with the Travellers in Prison Initiative, we have been active in promoting Traveller culture within our centres. Traveller Pride weeks have included music performances by the legendary Finbar Furey, exhibitions of the traditional art of tin smithing, and local exhibitions and displays of art, photography and craft work celebrating Traveller culture. The purpose of these events is to demonstrate that Traveller culture is valued within our centres. In this respect, we have observed not only an increased level of pride expressed by Traveller learners but an increased interest in Traveller culture among those learners from a settled background.

Within our curriculum, we are endeavouring to ensure the needs of Travellers are recognised and catered for. In Wheatfield Prison, for instance, we deliver the Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, level three module on challenging discrimination to facilitate understanding of bias, prejudice and discrimination towards various sections of society, including the Travelling community. In addition, we use materials that reflect Traveller culture in classes. In Cloverhill Prison, for example, these range from books for literacy students by Ann Marie Collins to recordings for use in the music class by artists such as Johnny Doran. During 2020 and 2021, our drama teacher in Arbour Hill and a group of students, including Travellers, devised a play based on Traveller culture and included use of the Cant-Gammon language in the script.

Literacy work is a key part of our educational service to prisons, and a range of approaches is employed for our adult learners, including one-to-one teaching, group work, Toe by Toe, Storybook Mums and Dads and the use of an interactive literacy package developed by our own teachers, which combines literacy and numeracy work with the development of digital skills. Again, adult literacy work is integrated in all parts of the curriculum.

In this short presentation, it has been my intention to identify issues relating to cultural identity that act as a barrier to the educational progress of our Traveller learners. It has not been to give the impression our delivery is perfect or that this work will, in itself, create educational equality for Travellers. It is, however, a clear statement that without considerable efforts to recognise the value of Traveller identity in our schools, colleges and centres, reaching the goal of educational equality for all our Traveller citizens will be very difficult indeed.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for the presentations, which give an insight into what is happening. I am curious about the training of staff in the Irish Prison Service, which was mentioned earlier. Do they get special training to deal with ethnic minorities such as Travellers? Is there a special training course or do staff undergo some sort of a process like that?

There were some notable comments about mental health treatment waiting lists, which are very long. We have many prisoners coming in for a short period, such as a few months, and the chances of them having their mental health needs attended to are small. Maybe some of them experience psychosis. Are we able to address any of those cases in an emergency scenario? The waiting lists are so long I am just not sure how we could deal with such cases.

I was very interested to hear about the equine centre in Castlerea. I am involved with the horse projects in Finglas and Ballymun. I assume that is open to all prisoners and Travellers specifically. Is this for people who have been in Castlerea or are people being brought in from across the Irish Prison Service to avail of this and do training etc.? Castlerea is an open prison so is this open to anybody else over the rest of the prison service?

Education is a major problem in the Traveller community and trying to get them on board and engaging is a great difficulty. I wonder how we can encourage some Travellers to engage with the services as there may be a reluctance to do it in certain circumstances. We spoke specifically about women earlier in the likes of the Dóchas centre or such places. It is harder to get them to engage in services than others. Will the witnesses give us some insight into that?

Will the witnesses give us an idea how addiction treatment services in the system work? If somebody has a serious addiction problem, whether alcohol or drugs, how would he or she be treated or dealt with?

Mr. Fergal Black:

I will deal with these questions initially before handing over to Mr. Beirne. We train our recruited prison officers with specific pieces on anti-discrimination and the needs of minorities. We have introduced the ethnic identifier, which Ms Costello mentioned earlier. We did a collaborative training programme for staff involved in a census trying to identify properly the number of Travellers within the prison system. Our colleagues in Pavee Point assisted us in that respect. Mr. Beirne might give a broader indication of the training around diversity and anti-discrimination.

Mental health issues are probably the single biggest challenge we have had over the past five years or the past decade. The issue is well rehearsed at this stage. There is a disproportionate number of people coming into custody suffering from severe and enduring mental illness. It is a challenge for us and our staff to manage that problem. We have the services of the National Forensic Mental Health Service based within the Central Mental Hospital and it visits almost all our closed prisons. Taking somewhere like Cloverhill, our main remand setting, we have a full team from the National Forensic Mental Health Service there but there is a major demand on services. Some of these people should not be in custody but in a therapeutic environment instead, receiving appropriate care. It is for that reason the four Ministers set up the task force. I am hopeful that task force will identify appropriate therapeutic locations for people in that position, particularly where they have committed minor offences but have a major mental illness.

There was a question about short sentences. Waiting lists are not based on when a prisoner has come in but rather clinical need. A prisoner could have come in yesterday, but if the clinical need is there, such as if the prisoner is floridly psychotic, that prisoner will be dealt with as a priority by both our healthcare team and the national forensic team. As the Deputy knows well, there is a major problem with securing admission to the Central Mental Hospital. I hope the new facility will provide some degree of comfort, but I believe it could be more of a honeymoon than a solution.

The Deputy asked about the equine centre, and the idea came from Mr. Jonathan Irwin, who was involved with the racing industry and the Jack & Jill Foundation. We approached a former Minister about the success of such a programme in other jurisdictions, such as Maryland in the United States and in Australia. Ultimately, we challenged the horse racing community, saying that if it fundraised to support the operation of the programme, we would build the facility. As I mentioned, it has fundraised €120,000 and it is now developing a five-year plan because it wants to sustain funding and continue the collaboration. It is open to all prisoners in all prisons.

To clarify, Castlerea is a closed prison so the prisoners come from the prison every day. They are selected based on behaviour etc. There is a group of prisoners from the prison who care for the horses and do modules on care of horses in the education unit. We have had Mr. Aidan O'Brien, Mr. Robert Hall and other horse racing personalities down there. In fairness, if they follow through, people from the horse racing industry can be very supportive. They have indicated that suitable people coming through the programme would be offered employment in the horse racing industry. If I am to be honest, they would probably start as stable hands but we see it as an opportunity. Currently, most stable hands come in from places like Brazil, so if there is an opportunity, it would be great. I am hopeful the Minister on her return to office will officially open the facility and we will have a five-year plan working with the horse racing industry into the future.

Addiction is still a major challenge in prisons. We have our own healthcare services, including GPs, and we have managed to recruit seven permanent GPs this year. We have GPs with a special interest in problems arising from substance misuse. We have a contract with Merchants Quay Ireland, which provides addiction counselling. Could we do more? Absolutely. The task force is considering the question of addiction to see how we might develop further. We have some work done but we have more to do. Mr. Beirne might quickly speak to the training of staff and anti-discrimination measures.

Mr. Séamus Beirne:

I thank the Deputy for the question. To underline Mr. Black's comments, there is a module in the training of recruited prison officers and they do a higher certificate in custodial care.

It includes a module on human rights and equality. As staff move along in their careers, there is continuous professional development, under which some courses on equality, diversity, inclusion, human rights and dignity in the workplace are delivered. When staff get promoted to, for example, assistant chief officer, there is a module on equality and dignity training. Training on public sector duty is also provided to governors and directors. As members are probably aware, that has to do with our duty under legislation to eliminate discrimination, provide equality of opportunity and protect the human rights of all our stakeholders. That is the formal part.

In my role as equality, diversity and inclusion lead, I occasionally run awareness-raising sessions in prisons. That is the roadshow that was referenced earlier. We kicked it off recently and are looking in particular at saying "No" to sexual harassment and sexual assault within our prison walls. This is all cross-sectional, in that it refers to Travellers as well as the settled community. As part of that roadshow, we also touch on issues of anti-racism and raise awareness of the LGBTQI community and people with disabilities. We often think of people with disabilities as those with physical disabilities, but I believe it was Ms Ní Chinnéide who pointed out how there were also people with less visible disabilities, for example, psychological disabilities, autism or whatever. We need to have an awareness of what we can provide for those prisoners to make their stay more comfortable, as it were.

There can be racism towards the Traveller community from fellow prisoners. Last April, we delivered a piece on racism on a television channel that we have for prisoners. Members will have seen the national media campaigns on raising awareness of racism and domestic violence. We run those on our internal television channel. We followed up with poster campaigns and the like to highlight these issues and make them more visible.

That is mainly what we do on the education side.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do Mr. Wilson or Ms Boyle wish to contribute?

Mr. Mark Wilson:

I will add something about the task force on mental health, which my colleague, Mr. Black, mentioned. The task force, which is a programme for Government commitment, has representatives from the Department of Justice and the Department of Health. On the health side are people from primary care, social inclusion and mental health as well as specialist services. They join the representatives from the Department of Justice in looking at the real issues in this area. The task force has three subgroups - one on diversion, one on illness within prisons and a third on throughcare from custody and the community element where those with mental health issues interface with the justice system. It is a great opportunity for us to examine this matter in detail and consider strategies that will make meaningful differences.

Ms Una Boyle:

I thank Deputy Ellis for his questions and comments. I am conscious of the time. Next month, the Probation Service will launch one of its new pieces of research on informing and supporting change. This is an analysis of our supervision cases and the prevalence of substance misuse, including alcohol, across the caseload. What is significant for the groups at this meeting is that, for the first time, we are able to draw down ethnic data, including on the prevalence in the Traveller population. Those data will be used to inform our practices and the development and training of our staff. It is significant for us and I hope that it will make a difference for our service users from the Traveller community. The research will be launched by the Minister in the middle or at the end of November. A copy can be made available once it is launched.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. O'Connor wish to contribute?

Mr. Stephen O'Connor:

Deputy Ellis asked how we encouraged Travellers to attend education courses. Our single most powerful way of doing so is by ensuring that, in our education centres and classrooms, they feel safe and free from the kind of racist abuse and innuendo that can occur in other education centres. It was noted as far back as 2010 in Dr. Niamh Hourigan's report that the first time many Travellers experienced racist abuse was when they went into mainstream educational courses. In many ways, it was masked when they were all being educated together. That is a sad reflection on our society in general. A priority for us is ensuring that our centres and classrooms are free from that type of name calling, references to people's mode of speech and that kind of nasty stuff, which can undermine a person. It is not surprising that, at a human level, people are reluctant to engage in our mainstream education services. There is just too much of that stuff happening.

We ensure that the curriculum is relevant to the Traveller community, including the community's needs in living in a society that is integrated in an inclusive sense. I sometimes have reservations about the term "integrated". It should be "inclusive", in other words, where both the settled culture and the Traveller culture are recognised and settled people feel a willingness to participate in courses that have relevance to Traveller culture. We find that this is one of the positive aspects of many of the events that we organise around Traveller culture. The settled community in the prison were also present at the events and were curious about some aspects of Traveller culture. This is another way that we try to bridge the gap between the settled and Traveller cultures, with each getting its fair share of respect.

Ms Edwards might like to speak about something else that we do, that is, proactively going after students within the prison. We send people into prisons to tell them about courses. It would be best if Ms Edwards spoke about this, as she has an interesting story about her work as our outreach worker and co-ordinator of our TPI.

Ms June Edwards:

I will give a brief outline of what we do. I am the Traveller liaison teacher for the Mountjoy campus, including the main Mountjoy jail, the progression unit and the Dóchas women's prison. I took over this role in September 2020 and I have three half-day slots to meet Travellers in each unit. Working with the TPI has been positive for us in the CDETB and we have benefited from the diversity and inclusion training that the initiative provides. It has helped us to reflect on our own practices, attitudes and unconscious bias and to evaluate the services that we provide for Travellers.

We are aware that school completion rates are lower among the Traveller community than in the general population, both in the community and in prison. To try to address this, and with the support of Travellers who work with the TPI, we developed resources that are more Traveller centred. However, many Travellers opt for classes in arts and crafts. Thus, literacy can remain an issue for them.

The IPS recently granted us permission to open up the recreational areas of the protection landings to offer additional literacy and numeracy support to prisoners, including many Travellers who have reduced access to education due to their protection status. In my role, I meet with Traveller men and women on the landings and in the education centres. This has proved an extremely helpful way for us to identity Travellers who are not engaging with education. While the role was initially aimed at encouraging Travellers to come to the education centre, it has evolved into an extended role of linking Travellers with the relevant services on and off the campus, including addiction counselling, IASIO, chaplaincy, Exchange House Ireland, the TPI and the National Traveller Women's Forum. All of the referrals to the various services are recorded. This gives a clear picture of the key needs of Travellers in prison. Requests and referrals largely relate to accommodation issues, mental health and anxiety, family suicide, literacy, family issues, loneliness, having nothing to do while in prison and pre- and post-release advice and support. For the CDETB, key areas for development include continued focus on literacy and educational engagement and exploring links with our further education and training sector to provide post-release supports for Travellers and positive pathways to life in the community.

To return to Deputy Ellis's question, we tend to find that the best way to engage is to go down the landings. This helps us to meet with people. After that, it is word of mouth. While it is great that people now identify and use the ethnicity identifier, there is one area where this could be tweaked because as it stands it does not enable us to do a search for the number of Travellers in prison. We first have to find the name of the prisoner before we can search to see if that person has identified as a Traveller or not. If the system were tweaked slightly, we would be able to draw up the names. This would help us to find a broader range of people who would, hopefully, engage with our services. When Travellers find their way up to the education centre and they have even one positive engagement they will come back and they will bring other people with them. That is the best way we can target them.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Edwards. The next speaker is Deputy Joan Collins.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I am impressed by the work being done by the organisations in terms of the different measures they are trying to implement in response to issues affecting the Traveller community. Ms Edwards made the point that within general society there is either racism, in its most cynical and hard sense, or an unconscious bias against the Traveller community and ethnic groups. This must seep into the prison and probation services. They are not unique and cannot be separated from it. Mr. Beirne made the point that for prisoner officers this issue is addressed by way of education. I am not sure if the Probation Service has a similar policy with regard to probation officers. I am interested in hearing how those courses are impacting on the attitudes of the officers within the prison and probation services in light of the reference earlier to the WhatsApp conversation among officers that was released and in which the language used was cruel and nasty in regard to the Traveller community. The issue is how we over come that. I believe the only way we can overcome it is through greater linkage of people from the Traveller community with non-Traveller people. This might help the latter to understand that Travellers are human and there is no difference between them other than that the Traveller community has been separated for so long from society it has become a group that people are suspicious of when they should be welcoming them.

I have a question for Mr. Wilson, Mr. Black and Mr. Beirne. What more can be done to try to cut across that unconscious bias and racism within the prison and probation services? My next question is in respect of an issue raised by Ms Ní Chinnéide of the Irish Penal Reform Trust, namely, the complaint mechanism within the Prison Service. It was stated that a complaints mechanism was supposed to be introduced by the end of 2019, which later became 2020 and has been changed again to 2021. I note that Prison Service is in negotiations with the Department of Justice on that matter. Ms Ní Chinnéide appears to be hopeful that it will be introduced by the end of 2021. Perhaps she would clarify the situation for us.

It was mentioned earlier that many of the sentences are for pretty crime. In general, sentences for such crime should be non-custodial. For many in the settled community, it would be a non-custodial sentence, but among the Traveller community a higher percentage of people are being committed to prison for pretty crime. Another issue raised was that of additional women's open prisons to try to support women in the Prison Service. I ask Mr. Black to comment on whether that would be a positive action.

My final question is to the CDETB. It is doing fantastic work in linking the cultural, settled Traveller community and in trying to develop the cultural aspect of the Traveller community and make Travellers feel proud of their culture and ethnicity. What more could be done in this regard? Are there examples of measures in place in other countries that the Irish State could implement to expand on the actions of the CDETB? As I said, the CDETB is doing really good work, buy how many people does it impact within the Traveller community? Do only a small percentage respond to it or does the CDETB have a broad access to people in the Traveller community in terms of the work that it does?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are only 22 minutes remaining, and I have yet to ask my questions. We are very time-constrained, and I would like to get everybody in. I ask the witnesses to keep their replies fairly concise.

Mr. Mark Wilson:

I will respond to a few of the questions from Deputy Joan Collins and I will try not to talk across Mr. Black's area. In respect of the question on open prisons, the review of penal policy in 2014 recommended an open prison for women. Working jointly with the Probation Service, the Prison Service proposed the development of a step-down unit for women as an alternative. The Outlook facility in Dublin is run by Focus Ireland for that purpose. It complements the Tús Nua service and the Abigail Women's Centre run by Depaul in Finglas, which equally targets referrals from the prison and probation services.

On sentences and petty crime, the Probation Service is currently managing approximately 800 members of Traveller community. One third of them are with us for assessment, one third are on community service and one third are under some form of probation order. The top five offences for which they are referred to us are theft, assault offences, public order, road traffic offences and burglary. The figure for theft sentences is higher than the non-Traveller percentile. Outside of that, the other areas are lower than the non-Traveller percentiles. Those are the key offences in respect of which we are working with members of the Traveller community.

On cultural sensitivity or bias in the context of Probation Service staff, as I mentioned in my opening address, TPI has brought in a user voice to assist with that cultural training for our staff. I will ask my colleague, Ms Doyle, to say a little more in respect of probation officer training.

Ms Una Doyle:

I thank the Deputy for the question. As mentioned in the opening address, there are three key areas for us in relation to that training for our staff in service.

I will take a step back. In recent years, probation officer entry requirements have led to us having an upskill or uplift whereby all new probation officers coming into the system have to be qualified in social work and registered with CORU. The relevance of that is that they would work from a professional base around social justice and the values pertaining to the social work profession. They are strong in terms of the ethical requirement around that. We would be naive to think that wipes out all unconscious or subconscious bias but it puts our staff interfacing with the clientele in a positive place to start off with. Similarly, throughout their time in probation, staff have access to continuous professional development and, as we referred to earlier, we have been doing a lot of work around cultural awareness training. We have been revisiting that in the last couple of years.

Another area we have been revisiting in the last year has been with the assistance with the Travellers in Prison Initiative, TPI. We brought the ethnic identifier into our data collection systems. While staff were given guidance on how to engage with their clientele around that, people felt uncomfortable and were not sure if they were being offensive or whether people were happy to be asked these questions. Our training is around supporting our staff to understand the importance of asking the question. If we do not ask the question we cannot get the data to inform service delivery. It is also to help them to understand and develop skills in how best to ask those questions in an appropriate manner. That is important for our staff.

We prepare pre-sentence reports for courts at all levels nationwide. While we work at an assessment being about an individual and his or her offence at a given time so it is around the uniqueness and them taking responsibility for that, we also set it in a context. That is one of the added values we bring to the court process. That said, we are looking, as Mr. Wilson referred to, at updating our guidelines to ensure they are culturally sensitive and more informative for the court, particularly around issues for the Travelling community or ethnic minorities.

Mr. Séamus Beirne:

I thank the Deputy. Measuring the impact of all this training can be difficult. It has been said that it is about changing a culture. There is a certain culture in Ireland and a prison is a microcosm of the country. Changing a culture takes a while. Is it working? All we can do is look at the number of complaints made, notwithstanding what was said earlier, from prisoners and staff. We take any allegations of racism or negative attitudes towards Travellers seriously. Prisoners go through the P19 process, which is a punishment in the prison. Staff cases would be investigated on a case-by-case basis and treated seriously. It would depend on the level of seriousness and I cannot say what would happen. We will monitor it. Covid has put a stall on this, but we intended doing a survey of staff and prisoners on things related to equality, diversity and inclusion. We intend to do that and to keep monitoring attitudes, which will hopefully show what the impact is. It is a secondary measure, I suppose. You can do all the training in the world, but if people do not accept it, what can you do? We have to look at the outcomes.

What more can be done? I suppose more can be done to raise awareness. I spoke with our education colleagues previously. I intend to do an awareness-raising of Traveller culture, based on what the Department of Education is doing on its side. That is something positive going forward.

Mr. Fergal Black:

To answer Deputy Joan Collins's question, we have more work to do to prevent discrimination. That is the honest answer. I meant to say to Deputy Ellis that one of the reasons we chose Castlerea was that in our last ethnicity survey across all the prisons, Castlerea had 95 prisoners who identified as Travellers. That was 31.5% of the population, which is an indictment of the over-representation of Travellers in our criminal justice system.

On complaints, it is not an area I am responsible for but substantial work has been completed on staff training and the integrated IT system. There is a draft policy on complaints handling and there is engagement with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to give legal effect to the new complaints system. Will it happen this year? I do not think it will happen this calendar year. There is an issue with resourcing the new complaints system which is yet to be finalised.

On the non-custodial options, we deal with people sent from the courts. On the other end, in terms of the back-door arrangement, there are the community support and community return schemes we run jointly with our colleagues in probation. I have statistics on Traveller participants. Of the 599 people serving sentences of less than a year who were released on a structured release programme last year under the community support scheme, 55 were Travellers. I do not believe there is any bias against Travellers in that. The statistics I have on education participation from our prison education system are positive as regards the number of Travellers engaging in education.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the key points made was the statement by Mr. Black that prisons are full of poor people, not just economically but also emotionally, educationally, socially and in terms of health status. Many have difficulty regulating their emotions. Typically they are young men who have fallen out of school, education, training and society. One thing we must take away from here is that if we want fewer Travellers going to prison, we have to deal with their socioeconomic position. That is why the committee deals with health, housing, education, discrimination, employment, etc. If people do not get a fair chance in life, they have a much higher risk of winding up in prison. That is obvious.

Mr. Black said something interesting. He referred to mental health and, as I understand it, a fair number of people in prison who are Travellers have mental health issues. Mr. Black made the comment that some should not be in custody. That is interesting because I would always say prison is the last resort for anybody. As a society, we should look at every other option and see if there are better options. I wonder if in 100 years' time people will look at us and ask why we inherited a prison system and kept going with it. Will Mr. Black elaborate on the point he made? It is key. Improving the prison system is key but we also have to look at whether there are people there who should not be there in the first place.

Mr. Fergal Black:

Absolutely. I stand over my view that there are people in custody who have committed a minor infraction within the criminal justice system but whose behaviour is odd or erratic etc. I am not blaming anybody but they end up in custody, especially in a remand setting and in Cloverhill Prison. If you meet the consultant psychiatrist and our teams of healthcare people or officers in Cloverhill, they will tell you they come across people every day who are in for minor offences. It has been outlined to me that somebody was picked up for shouting in public and ended up in Cloverhill Prison for some kind of public order offence or, in another case, for defecating in a taxi. These are people with a real underlying condition. They are young men, typically suffering from schizophrenia, many of whom are actively psychotic and, unfortunately, have been failed by mental health services in the community. Many of them are homeless so they have all of those combinations of complexities and they end up in our custody. Our staff do their best with them, but those people who have committed very minor infractions within the criminal justice system should be in a therapeutic environment.

The Central Mental Hospital service in Cloverhill set up the diversion programme. Every year, Dr. Conor O'Neill and his team divert approximately 150 prisoners. They go back to the judge in court, tell him or her that they have found the person a residential or community placement with a mental health service, the judge discharges the case and the person is then discharged to that mental health service. It works very well. We need to extend that to all centres where we take in remand prisoners, such as Cork, Limerick and Castlerea. It is a very good service and it is something my colleague, Mark Wilson, spoke about that is being examined as part of the task force. Very simply, some people are being sent to custody when custody is the wrong solution.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Am I correct in thinking that, in some cases, the same person who committed the same offence but came from a more affluent background would probably never wind up in prison because he or she would be diverted into support services?

Mr. Fergal Black:

It is possible. I honestly could not answer that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Black said that prisons are full of poor people.

Mr. Fergal Black:

They are, in general, but we get some people whose families contact our office because they are very concerned for the health, well-being and mental stability of their loved one. On occasion, that can be in respect of people who come from more middle-class backgrounds. In the main, however, these are young men who are homeless, have addiction problems and have severe and enduring mental illnesses that the Probation Service, ourselves and homeless services are dealing with. Some of these people have ended up in custody in Cloverhill on multiple occasions. I am talking about quite a number, up to six, seven or eight times. I know of one person who has ended up in custody in Cloverhill on 15 different occasions.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will build on this issue of the number of people because it is very relevant. I will particularly focus on the number of women who are in prison with addictions. Does diversion or treatment for alcohol or drugs in a different type of setting give better long-term results than a conventional prison sentence in either Limerick or the Dóchas Centre? I am purposely challenging because this committee was set up to challenge acceptable norms.

Mr. Fergal Black:

That is possible but my experience of women who eventually find their way into custody is that there is an accumulation of charges before a judge will eventually place them in custody. Unfortunately, women who come into custody are suffering multiple difficulties. If a woman has a partner in custody, invariably she will visit and send money to that partner. The partner knows that the children are being looked after by his or her wife or partner. When a woman comes into custody, invariably there are difficulties where she has a whole complexity of issues in terms of mental health, addiction and psychological care. Her children could face being taken into care. The women go to our hairdressers when they have a physical visit and, on occasion, they go down and nobody turns up to see them.

Women who come into custody have a complexity of issues. The very positive information from this year's budget Estimates process is that we finally got, for the first time, funding to employ directly not just general nurses but psychiatric nurses. We got a considerable injection of funding to recruit psychologists to work on mental health. All those measures will be very positive in the context of providing better care for people sent to our custody.

Mr. Mark Wilson:

I will come back to the earlier point the Vice Chairman made in respect of people coming into prison with mental health or addiction issues. I mentioned we are in contact with 9,000 people in the community. Many of them have been in prison and, unless they make changes in their lives, many will end up in prison. At the outset, we need to make sure that those who have health issues should not come into the justice system at all, where possible. The approach of looking at diversion for minor drug offences or mental health issues is an appropriate way to do just that and to minimise those coming into the system at all.

The point in respect of mental health again reflects the similarity in the populations. We published a mental health survey earlier this year, which identified 40% of our client group as having mental health difficulties. It was 57% for women while the rate is 18% for the general population. Of those 40% I am discussing, half of that group also presented with an alcohol or drug addiction, difficult family relationships and accommodation instability. That speaks to the Vice Chairman's point on whether it is possibly a class-related issue that is impacting on the multiple complexity of issues the person is dealing with.

On women, again, the Prison Service and Probation Service have had a joint strategy on how we target and work more effectively with women. We are building on that and the review currently being carried out on female policy also looks at that area. It will make specific recommendations on how we might strengthen our approach in that area.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have two very brief questions because we are running short of time. The idea of the horse project is a fantastic one and I applaud those in the industry who funded it. My first question is a practical one. Should this project be funded out of the horse and greyhound fund that goes into the horse and greyhound industry generally? Should it be considered as part of this? I was on an agriculture committee that looked at all the issues relating to the horse and greyhound fund. Should State funding be directly available and ring-fenced for this purpose so it could be done in other appropriate prisons? That is a straightforward question.

We know from independent surveys in society that Travellers are probably the group that is most discriminated against, and the most distant from society in general, if you look at all the ethnic identifiers across the board. Those who are doing the training with staff, therefore, have a challenge because there is an inherent bias that is already very prevalent in society. There is no point in us denying it; it is sociologically proven. Is there a challenge in training in that people might see those of other nationalities and ethnic groups as being more identifiable than Travellers when talking about racism? Is there a tendency not to see racism in quite the same terms when it comes to our own people in the Traveller community, just in relation to training? There is nothing wrong with recognising difficulties and saying we face a challenge. How much of a challenge is it that people might say they definitely know they should not discriminate against somebody of colour or whatever, but we know that in society that mentality does not often prevail when it comes to the Traveller community? Is this factored into training? Those are two different questions. One is for the Prison Service and the other I will throw to the committee.

Mr. Fergal Black:

I will pick up on the horse welfare issue. We have approached this as a collaboration, and I would say that we should continue to do so. The horse racing industry has come to us. Recent events have left the industry in the situation where it has not had good publicity and it sees the opportunity of working with us as something that can show it is giving back to society. That is the approach it has taken to me. More importantly, it potentially provides employment opportunities.

My most recent meeting with industry representatives was three weeks ago. They want to appoint an ambassador from within their industry and they have some senior figures in mind who will be the ambassador for this programme. We want to get to a situation where people coming to the end of their sentence, who complete the modules on this programme, can go and maybe start off as stable hands, etc., and get employment and act as role models. We currently have an external agency, which is funded by the horse racing industry, providing the expert training and they have staff there. We want prisoners who graduate through that to become the staff. We wanted to show that it is working.

While we will accept money from anywhere, I am of the view that the money coming from the horse racing industry offers a number of opportunities. It opens doors for us in terms of employment and linkages. We have also put money into it as a State, however. We built a facility that includes the American shed and the arena and we provided the equipment. It is a real collaboration. I believe that having the industry on board to create that opportunity for employment is really positive for us in terms of progression. If we have progression, we will attract prisoners to continue to feed into it because each module only takes eight weeks.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps I will reframe the question. It is great that the industry is involved. I see the whole advantage of continuation in employment. If, however, Mr. Black wanted to replicate that in other prisons where it would be relevant, has the Prison Service got the resources or does it need more resources?

Mr. Fergal Black:

No, I have not got the resources if that is the question. If the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine horse and greyhound funding stream was to be made available to us, we would be happy to accept.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. I asked a question about racism training. I will take two final speakers after that is answered. Who wants to deal with the challenges of training in the context of racism? Is it more difficult to get acceptance that racism exists? In other words, looking at societal norms and what we know the attitudes in society are in reality, does it pose additional challenges for those training within services to deal with this particular syndrome? Mr. Beirne and Ms Doyle are indicating. I will take Ms Costello last.

Mr. Séamus Beirne:

I will take that question if the Vice Chairman does not mind. I agree that racism for people of colour is more obvious and people recognise racism more against that cohort. There are additional problems of identifying racism towards Travellers. We will have to develop our training and we will probably be doing that in consultation with the Travellers in Prison Initiative, Ms Costello, the St. Stephen's Green Trust and so forth, and we will perhaps get some Traveller peer educators as well. As I mentioned earlier, as part of our training, we get some travellers from the Traveller Mediation Service who come in and deliver talks to our trainees. It is good to get the voice of the Travellers in that area. It is something that we will look into and develop.

We will not be just doing a module of training. This is ongoing year on year because we need to keep it fresh and reinforce it. We have new staff coming in and people getting promoted. We also need to focus on the prisoner population, which is very transient. We need to get the message out there that it is not appropriate among the prisoners either. I take the Vice Chairman's point.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Beirne very much. I call Ms Doyle.

Ms Una Doyle:

I will go back to what I said earlier regarding our training. The key challenge probably for us all, including myself, is that piece around the unconscious or subconscious bias. We like to think that we are not discriminating against particular individuals, etc., but, again, it is really about trying to make that unconscious become more conscious where that bias is there.

I would use three words in terms of a strategy around it. We need to be explicit, target our staff and our messages and continuously repeat the messages and training. When it becomes part of the norm and culture and the way we do things around here, then it becomes part of a much more egalitarian and equitable response.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Doyle very much. I will give the final word to Ms Costello. I see that her hand is up.

Ms Anne Costello:

I thank the Chairman and everyone very much for attending. With regard to what Ms Doyle said about racism training and so forth, training works with some people. Certainly, our inputs to the probation staff worked very well. We had people who were coming from that frame of mind who were open to it. I think with other people and staff in other organisations where there are deeply embedded racist attitudes, the only response is zero tolerance. The prison is a very hierarchical organisation. It needs to come from the very top that there will be consequences for racist behaviour. That is where we will see real change.

On a more positive note, again, some of our initiatives have worked really well. That is something about which the attendees have all spoken today. Many of them have worked so well because we have champions in the various organisation who are driving it forward. That is really great but the danger is that we rely on individuals and when they move on, the work gets set back again. Therefore, we need to mainstream it. We need to embed the initiatives we started now. And when we have shown that they work in different particular prisons, we need to roll it out across the other prisons and use the learning from that.

Finally, we need to work more closely with the committee to scrutinise the data. Travellers are very reluctant to identify as Travellers because, in the past, their identity has been used against them. They are being encouraged now to come forward and identify as Travellers. In Michael Donovan's time, he assured Travellers that there would be benefits for them and extra resources, workshops, etc., and for those reasons, they did identify. We need to continue that. We need to show the people who are asking the questions that there are benefits for them in identifying as Travellers because there will be changes in how services are delivered. There is loads more I want to say but I will finish there.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that. We are out of time.

Ms Anne Costello:

Of course. I thank the Vice Chairman very much.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is like "The Late Late Show"; we are out of time. We have been at it for three hours and there is a limit on committee meetings at the moment. I thank everybody for attending. It has been a very beneficial and long session and we, as members, have learned a great deal. We will be writing a detailed report. We are due to report by the end of next month. As a result, we have a large programme of work for the coming month. The input of all the contributors has been hugely important in our work, however. I thank them all. Perhaps the next time we are doing this, we can do it in person but it is great to be able to do it online at the moment.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe. Tá an comhchoiste ar athló go dtí 11.30 a.m. ar Déardaoin, 4 Samhain 2021.