Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Members have raised interesting questions that cut across a number of issues. Senator Chambers asked specifically about the next steps with respect to the protocol. As we speak, the UK team is in Brussels discussing with its counterparts at a technical level. I understand the discussion is focusing on the EU papers - the documents published last week. David Frost and Maros Šefovi will meet again. I noted from Mr. Frost's Lisbon speech last week that there is an openness to engage, and that is happening. We must welcome and acknowledge that a discussion is taking place, much of which is being kept confidential. We must also acknowledge that the European Commission has come a very long way, supported by the member states. That is really welcome.

We will certainly be as constructive as possible in the coming weeks and continually reassure our friends in Britain that, as far as we can tell in all our engagements and in the European Commission's engagements, business and the people of Northern Ireland are, by and large, happy with what has been proposed by the European Commission. This will lead to a substantial reduction in checks while at the same time, importantly, protecting the Single Market, which is crucial for Ireland. It gives Northern Ireland the real benefits of the best-of-both-worlds approach, with Northern Ireland in the Single Market for goods but also part of the customs territory of the UK.

The European Court of Justice was raised by both Deputy Haughey and Senator Chambers. It is important to be very clear. First, in the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement there is no role for the Court of Justice. In the protocol it has a very limited and specific role which, to be honest, I cannot see really arising in practice. It is difficult even to think of how it could arise in practice. Essentially, Northern Ireland is in the Single Market for goods. Disputes relating to goods' standards or whether goods are allowed in the Single Market could theoretically end up in the Court of Justice of the European Union but, as I understand it, it is such a theoretical issue that there is currently only a handful of cases across the entire European Union relating to goods before the Court of Justice. In fact, cases in the Court of Justice relating to goods are actually some of the foundational cases dating back up to 50 years, which Senator Chambers and Deputy Haughey would probably have studied in college. They go back that far and they are foundational aspects of the Single Market. All that the provision in the protocol does is apply that.

Ultimately, any single market for goods needs regulation, which is the rules of the European Union. The protocol lists a certain set of regulations that apply to goods in Northern Ireland and, ultimately, there has to be an arbitrator, a court, that is the bedrock of the Single Market, and that is the Court of Justice of the European Union. It is part and parcel of the Single Market. When we say Northern Ireland is part of the Single Market for goods, it means that goods can flow freely from Northern Ireland to the European Union and, most importantly, between the North and South on this island, which is the rationale for it, that those goods must adhere to certain standards and, ultimately, in theoretical cases, that the Court of Justice of the European Union could decide on issues relating to those matters. The rules for the Single Market are so set in stone and specifically set out in the protocol that it is very hard to see how this issue would arise in practice, but it is part and parcel of the Single Market and the benefits that it gives to Northern Ireland. I do not see it as a burden in any way. In fact, I do not see it as an interference in any way with British sovereignty. Northern Ireland is in the Single Market as a type of exception with a specific international agreement, which is what the protocol is. This is simply part of it, and I doubt there will be many lawyers in Belfast taking cases to the Court of Justice of the European Union on goods issues. It is very difficult to envisage it. However, it is part and parcel of what Northern Ireland gets with the Single Market.

Poland is obviously a major concern, and Senator Chambers and Deputy Haughey asked similar questions about what we can do about it. There are many hard and soft powers. The Article 7 proceedings were mentioned by Deputy Haughey. That is one of the most important measures the European Union has. However, it is very difficult to operate in practice. There are the Article 7 hearings that take place at the General Affairs Council, on which I sit. Ultimately, if they were voted up to the European Council, technically some voting rights could be withdrawn as punishment for a breach of the rules, but the voting majority requirements to get it out of the General Affairs Council are quite steep and at the European Council there must be unanimity, which would be difficult to achieve in the current political circumstances, as members of the committee will understand. However, the Article 7 proceedings have been started and it is difficult to see a way to finish them. It is important. We had Article 7 hearings in June and that shone a light on certain issues at that time, particularly in Hungary. Yesterday, we had a rule of law dialogue where we again shone a light on particular issues.

In terms of the practical next steps, the public pressure from the Dáil and Seanad and from the general public in Ireland on LGBT rights, for example, has had a direct impact on some of those towns that had LGBT-free zones. We can talk to our friends, the Poles, and say that we do not believe this is acceptable, that it needs to change and the reasons are that it is about human decency, human dignity and human rights. In quite a number of cases, those designations by local authorities in Poland have been reversed through public pressure, much of it coming from Ireland. In addition, the European Commission has withdrawn funding for certain municipalities in Poland which have initiated these designations. That public pressure cannot be understated. There is also, of course, the conditionality regulation, which would make the disbursal of European moneys, particularly from the recovery and resilience fund, conditional on adherence to the rule of law and democratic values. That regulation is in force, but it is being challenged in the Court of Justice of the European Union at present.

The Commission is taking this very seriously and carefully. For example, it has not yet approved the recovery and resilience plans for Hungary and Poland. It is also conscious that there is a case before the Court of Justice. Ireland took part in that case in support of the Council. Last week, our lawyers were arguing that case. That is a very important step by us to show that we take this very seriously. We certainly support the conditionality mechanism and want to see it implemented, provided the Court of Justice rules in favour of it. That is a very practical measure. The Polish and Hungarian people are our friends and common Europeans. We have to keep talking and keep a dialogue going in respect of all these issues. That is very important. The committee can play its role in that too, and I am sure it does. We need to keep in touch. They are our friends and not everybody in those countries agrees with the direction the governments are taking, and that provides an opportunity.

With regard to enlargement, Ireland is totally supportive of the enlargement of the European Union. The Taoiseach made very strong comments in Slovenia on that. He had good engagement with his counterparts from the western Balkans countries, in particular. I have had similar engagement, too, and I strongly encourage the committee to have whatever engagement it considers fit with its counterparts in the western Balkans. Yes, there are obviously processes to go through. We have to make sure that the rule of law, democratic values and economic reforms are all bedded down, but we should be as encouraging and helpful as possible. In any of my engagements with colleagues from the western Balkans I have offered Ireland's full support not only in terms of the ultimate ambition of EU membership but also our help along the way on the road to it.

I hope that answers the members' questions.