Mr. John Farrelly:

If we are finding that this is operating at the senior public service level and senior political level, then we have got the process wrong. The process should be happening at the level where the ordinary individual is finding out where the relevant wrongdoing is happening. If one thinks of the Oireachtas, one thinks of the Ministers and the civil servants, policy directions and legislation. Where someone is finding a relevant wrongdoing, where there may have been an offence, that is getting the structure right within the organisation, the checks and balances. What the Chairman refers to is probably desperation on someone's part because the system is not working for them at the appropriate level. I would question the idea that we are protecting one person, or as the Chairman put it, blaming individuals because if we go down the route of blaming, we will not get the just culture or the necessary change. People who are significant wrongdoers over the years are often intelligent, tactical and capable of gaming the system. What we want to see is an institutional approach that creates transparency and accountability. The Chairman referred to different entities which may be legal constructs like companies or charities, for example, which will have individual trustees and directors. There are laws in place to enable them, if there is wrongdoing or a potential criminal offence, to put systems in place to deal with that. Most people are reasonable and decent. We are trying to get structures in place so that the person who is doing wrong is not given a competitive edge.