Lord Hain:

I have been here all along. I agree completely with what Lord Caine said. I believe it was a mistake in retrospect not to have more regular meetings of the BIIGC and the British-Irish Council. To be frank, often we did not get every top Cabinet Minister, including the UK Prime Minister, present at these bodies. That was as true under Labour Governments as under Conservative ones. I will come back to this because Deputy Richmond specifically addressed the point.

I will begin with the question from Deputy Chambers. I believe the political instability at present is serious. It is not all to do with the protocol. I agree with what Lord Caine said about that. It has been there for several years. Anyway, it is serious. I am using my words carefully. It is important for nationalists and republicans, whatever side of the Border they are on, to be careful at the moment. This is because unionism feels extremely insecure, especially loyalism. As Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and ever since, I have tried to play an honest broker role. It seems to me that is the key duty of any British Prime Minister and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and, for that matter, their colleagues in government. Their duty is to be genuine honest brokers in this. Given Britain's tangled history in Ireland, Northern Ireland as well as the Republic of Ireland, that is essential. We would not have got the Good Friday Agreement, the work of John Major beforehand and that of others without that honest broker role, so we need to return to that. That means in the current situation some care and attention should be given by nationalists and republicans on both sides of the Border to how they resolve, form relationships and behave in this situation. It is quite serious.

I will offer one example. President Mary McAleese's husband played an important role under the radar in building relationships with loyalists. That gave a sense of comfort to loyalist opinion. Such opinion is not always or often not represented at all by unionist politicians that claim to represent loyalist opinion. Many loyalists do not believe that is occurring. Therefore, I would urge direct relationships between the Oireachtas and those in government in Dublin with the loyalist community and the wider unionist community. The more personal relationships there are and the more trust that can be built, the better. I was the first Secretary of State to formally meet loyalist representatives in my office at Stormont. Many of them, as one of my advisers described, were men in uniform. That was a step that had not been taken but it gave recognition and respect to an important strand of opinion in Northern Ireland.

Deputy Richmond made a point about North-South relations. Again, these are not happening. The North-South bodies, of which there are many, are not meeting in the way they should be and in a way that is essential. Whatever the suspicions on the side of the DUP, it is personal relationships and working together on tourism, the economy, energy or climate change that builds greater understanding and trust. We have to try to get those going again.

I hope I am not speaking for too long but I wish to take this opportunity to say that I believe Brussels, especially the European Commission, is being too rigid. I say this as an unapologetic remainer. Our committees have ardent Brexiteers as well as remainers.

I accept the charge of being a remainer as a badge of honour. Brussels, traditionally in a sense, subcontracted questions on Northern Ireland to Dublin and directly to London because, of course, we had a direct relationships through our ambassador in Brussels with that kind of hands-on relationship. Members of the European Commission or, for that matter, members of the European Council or even the European Parliament, are sufficiently understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland. I put most of the blame on the way in which Lord Frost and Boris Johnson have been behaving and, quite frankly, the dishonesty with which the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, behaved on the Irish Sea question where he denied a border that he had signed up to. That created a sense of betrayal and of suspicion in the unionist and loyalist community. There are faults in Brussels, and Dublin could be more energetic in being on the ground and in building relationships and trust, where loyalists might understand that Dublin is on its side in wanting to promote a future of peace, progress and prosperity.