Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 15 June 2021
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine
Organic Farming: Discussion
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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No apologies have been received. I remind members that in the context of the current Covid-19 restrictions only the Chair and staff are present in the committee room and all members must join remotely from elsewhere in the parliamentary precincts. The secretariat can issue invitations to join the meeting on MS Teams. Members may not participate in the meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. I ask members please to mute their microphones when they are not making a contribution and to use the raise hand function when they want to indicate. Please note that messages sent in the meeting chat are visible to all participants. Speaking slots will be prioritised for members of the committee.
The agenda for today is organic farming. Today's meeting is in two sessions. The first session is engagement with representatives of the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, and Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, INHFA. This will be followed by engagement with representatives of the Irish Organic Association and the Organic Growers Ireland.
From the IFA I welcome Mr. Nigel Renaghan, organic project team chair and Ms Niamh Brennan, organic policy executive. From the INHFA I welcome Mr. Joe Condon and Mr. Henry O'Donnell, who are national council members. Mr. Renaghan, Ms Brennan and Mr. Condon are joining remotely and Mr. O'Donnell is joining from a witness room in Kildare House. They are very welcome to the meeting.
We have received the opening statements, which have already been circulated to members. We are limited on time due to Covid-19 restrictions and the committee has agreed that the opening statements will be taken as read so we can use the full session for questions and answers. All opening statements are published on the Oireachtas website and publicly available.
Before we begin I have an important notice on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Participants in the committee meeting from a location outside of the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that the constitutional protection afforded to those participating from within the parliamentary precincts does not extend to them. No clear guidance can be given on whether, or the extent to which, participation is covered by the absolute privilege of a statutory nature. I now invite questions from members.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the comprehensive submissions they have given us. I have a few points on which I would like them to elaborate over and above the information they have included in their submissions. My big question is based on my observations of the organic schemes to date. We hear all the bells and whistles about the scheme being opened up again, and that it will do the devil and all and that we will have organic farmers left, right and centre. Then we are contacted by people interested in joining the scheme who are complaining they have been eliminated from doing so because of the scoring system and the points system for applications. People tell me it is very heavily weighted towards dairy as opposed to sheep or tillage. I would like witnesses to comment on this. How do they see that a more level playing field could be created with regard to making the scheme as equally accessible for every sector of the agricultural sphere?
I would also like to hear a little more on what education and training schemes and systems they would like to see incorporated into the organic sector. This is specifically for organics as opposed to across the board education and training. I will mention one specific aspect. I read the submissions from the two groups before us now and the submissions from the two groups joining us in the second session. I was a little surprised that the word "soil" was not mentioned in any of them. To me, from previous deliberations with those involved in the organic sector, soil is the key factor when it comes not just to organic farming but also in the climate change sphere we are in. Soil, for its sequestration value, seems to be a key player in how agriculture will evolve and be maintained in future. I would like comments from the witnesses, especially on the back of the announcement of the pilot programme for soil sampling. Is there a bigger role for soil sampling and perhaps other initiatives regarding soil and soil structure sequestration values and storage values? I would like to hear some comments on what way the witnesses would like to see policy being developed, which as much as anything would help and evolve their knowledge of soil and soil structure and how it can be used. I will leave it at that for now and if time allows, I may contribute again at the end.
Mr. Nigel Renaghan:
We have history on the scoring issue and it is a good question. In 2018, the scheme opened for a very short period of time. There were 225 applications and 110 people were not successful. The scheme was flawed because it was done on a points basis. The bigger the farms were, the more points the applicants were allocated. This is wrong and the IFA is totally against it. People should be judged on merit, not on the size of their farms. There are many small farmers in the country and we should not discriminate against small farmers accessing a scheme, which is what happened. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine admitted that was the case but nothing was done to rectify the matter.
Of those farmers who did not get into the scheme, 63 of them, who are called the pilgrim farmers, stuck with the organic scheme even though they never got into it. They paid to do an organic farming course, modified their buildings and paid certification bodies. They had to abide by all the rules and regulations but they never got a payment. That needs to be addressed. Some people would say it cannot be addressed but the €50 million scheme for beef producers was a retrospective payment for cattle they had killed in Ireland. This could be done.
With regard to training and education, a number of years ago Teagasc had three organic farms and five advisers. Approximately a month ago, we met Teagasc and we highlighted the fact it does not have an organic farm. Teagasc does not even have an organic farm but schemes such as farm to fork are promoted. Teagasc had one adviser and has taken on another. This needs to be addressed.
Senator Daly mentioned soil. In terms of organic farms, the soil is where we are at. Generally, we do not highlight it because it is what we have to do. With regard to soil health and the nutrient uptake of soil, soil sampling is very important, and what would also be very important would be a programme for liming land.
All types of farmers, whether they are spreading chemical fertiliser or any type of nutrient, need lime to get the most out of their grass. That is what we need. I hope that has gone some way towards answering the questions.
Mr. Henry O'Donnell:
I am from Inishowen in Donegal and I am a national council member with the Irish Natura & Hill Farmers Association. The points raised by Senator Daly are very worthy of comment. I agree with much of what Mr. Renaghan put across. I do not think there is any conflict in what has been said. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Bord Bia and all the other bodies involved have no real ambition to promote organic farming. The last time, the scoring system put off a lot of farmers. I know farmers who applied and who farmed organically for almost a year only to be told they were not successful. When I talked to them about the new application, it was a case of once bitten, twice shy. They were not going to put themselves through the trauma of that again, albeit perhaps they would have got in this time. There is no ambition. Dairy farming is the sector that is most heavily weighted towards scoring. We need some ambition here. We have fabulous products in the shape of lamb that need to be actively promoted and we need bodies like Bord Bia to develop and create markets for what should be quite easily marketed. It is a fabulous product and people would purchase these organic products if they were educated on the benefits of them. I am totally against the scoring system because it shows no ambition whatsoever on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.
I agree with everything Mr. Renaghan said about education and training. In addition to what he said, we need the knowledge-transfer mechanism, which I hope will come into effect in the next round of the CAP to do something specifically for organic farmers. I am an organic farmer in Inishowen in Donegal. At most, there are probably ten people within 30 miles of me who I know are organic farmers. We need a wee bit of a stimulus package to get us together into a formal workshop or knowledge-transfer situation so that we can co-operate and learn from each other. A lot of organic farmers I know feel very isolated. For the sake of expanding on the ideals of organic farming to our neighbours, it is critical that people get exposed to organic farming.
Another huge issue, which is the elephant in the room relating to farmers in the organic scheme, is the Irish stipulation of a minimum stocking rate of 0.5 livestock units per hectare. The reality is that can be quite difficult to attain on high nature value land, uplands and high carbon soils. I know the organic certification people say that if we do not reach it we get a lesser payment, but to properly incentivise organic we should not be made to reach this artificially high stocking rate. Natura land and hill land do not have the carrying capacity to reach 0.5 livestock units per hectare. It is effectively excluding a huge cohort of farmers who cannot even dream of entering the organic scheme who are almost organic anyway with very low fertiliser inputs and very low concentrate feed usage. These farmers are totally excluded. If we are to have any ambition, this is one thing that really needs to change quickly.
I agree with the Senator's comments on soil. The whole organic farming system is based on good soil management. We have lessons to teach all farmers about carbon sequestration, carbon storage in soils, water and filtration in soils from diverse types of cultivation. There is a lot that can be done if the will is there but at the moment it does not seem to be there.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for attending today. I gather that Mr. O'Donnell killed two birds with the one stone and also joined his neighbours on the mica protest. I extend the best wishes of this committee to everybody involved. As we know, they include quite a number of farming families.
I welcome this initial conversation on organics. This is an area of great potential for the agrifood sector, in particular as it allows the farming community to diversify in a way that can increase the returns coming to farming families, if it is managed right, while also being of significant benefit to the environment. Therefore, it is regrettable that we have seen such a lack of vision and imagination from statutory bodies, specifically the Department, in that regard.
Both speakers referred to Teagasc and Bord Bia and we have heard of some of the failings. Both of these bodies are statutory bodies that are bound to take direction from the Government. What direction do we need to give to Teagasc in terms of research, education and training and what does it need to do to support the organic sector in a sufficient way? There is not enough emphasis by Bord Bia on the marketing of organic products. Reference has already been made to the sheep sector. What do we need to put in place? Do we need to ring-fence a proportion of Bord Bia's budget for the promotion of organic food or do the witnesses have any other propositions?
Mr. O'Donnell referred to a point made in the INHFA's submission about the blockages to entry in the scheme. He mentioned stocking rates. There was also a reference to commonage. What needs to be put in place in order to allow those with commonage land to be able to avail of the organic farming scheme?
Perhaps Mr. Renaghan can answer this question, and other witnesses might also wish to contribute. There is a particular problem concerning the lack of competition in the organic feed processing sector. Do the witnesses have a sense of what could be done to ensure that we do not end up with the same situation in the organic sector as the wider beef sector in that the market is entirely dominated by one or perhaps two big players? Is there more we can do to support organic marts that can export organic live cattle out of the country? I know this has been attempted at Ballybay mart, for example, in my constituency? Could we put more in place at a central level to encourage that type of activity? I will leave it there for now, a Chathaoirligh.
Mr. Nigel Renaghan:
I will start with the last question first. Deputy Carthy mentioned the organic mart in Ballybay. I was in contact with the mart manager before he set it up and I encouraged him to do it.
It is a slow process but being able to export live cattle would be a major bonus. That brings me to the beef sector and I will be honest with the members about it. Some of our members are involved with the Irish Organic Beef Producers Association. Effectively, it involves many farmers stretching from Dublin to Galway. They were supplying Good Herdsmen. They had a three-year deal to supply a certain number of cattle a week. In the middle of that the farmers were shafted. They were told they were not wanted any more and their contracts were torn up. We in the IFA met the farmers. Some of the farmers involved are on our project team. We tried to re-establish a deal. We went to the Bord Bia stand at a show in Germany and met John Purcell. We engaged with him to see if anything could be done but we were put off the Bord Bia stand at BIOFACH, which is the biggest organic show in Europe. Myself, Niamh Brennan, our executive secretary, our vice chairman, John Curran, Gordon McCoy and another farmer went there. Effectively, we were put off the stand and told we were obstructing business, which we were not. We were trying to help those farmers. Since then contact was made with the same group of farmers. It said they would not deal with them as a group but would deal with them individually. The Government is promoting producer groups. We had a producer group that was up and running selling approximately 35 to 40 head of cattle every week and it was cast aside. That was disgraceful. An offer was made to some of those individuals a few weeks ago to the effect they could sell beef at €5 a kilo but they ended up getting €4.90 a kilo and the promise of €5 a kilo was not met. Traditionally, the price for the sale of beef was at least €1 a kilo more. If we take the sale of price of the beef at €4.20 per kilo plus the Bord Bia bonus of 20 cent a kilo, one would wind up, taking everything into account, with a price of €4.50 a kilo. No bonuses are being paid now. The flat price is €4.90 a kilo. Farmers must be Bord Bia approved to get into that scheme but farmers are not getting the 20 cent per kilo bonus on top of the flat price of €4.90, which they should be getting.
One company is controlling the Irish beef industry. It bought Good Herdsmen. The ABP Group controls more than 90% of all beef processed in the Republic of Ireland. That is a fact. It is little wonder the price is at the level it is at. At a minimum the price should be €5.40 or €5.50 a kilo if not more. In Scotland, the price of beef is more than €6 a kilo. There are questions to be asked about that. Our organisation has asked that company those questions but we have not got answers. Perhaps the members of the committee could ask those questions. I would welcome any questions members may have on that issue.
Regarding Teagasc and the knowledge transfer structure, we mentioned what could be done. Teagasc is in operation and my colleague from Donegal mentioned the knowledge transfer structure. We are all farmers and I do not distinguish between any of us. Teagasc should not be doing any nitrogen trials. That is a problem. EU Directive 92/43/EEC is an important one. It states at a maximum a mountain cannot be stocked above 0.25 livestock units per hectare. I agree with the stocking density allowed on a mountain area. Some people will say the payment in respect of that is a retrospective one. Farmers will get it in any event. The payment for organic producers is based on 60 ha. There are not a great number of farmers with more than 60 ha in mountain areas. We should have a stocking level that a mountain area is able to support and there should be a mixture of cattle on that land. There is a notion that mountain areas need to be farmed but the use of nitrates on that land needs to stop. Many farmers are taking up swathes of hills using them for nitrates. They do not even know where the nitrates are and they are not farming the land. If they are putting in for the payment they should be farming the land and there should be a mixture of cattle on it. A farmer with a shed housing 200 Holstein bulls on a hill 2,000 ft above sea level is not farming the land. That must be addressed. If farmers say they are using the land, they need to do so and to have traditional breeds of cattle on it.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I must interrupt Mr. Renaghan as a number of speakers wish to contribute. Regarding the processing of cattle, two processors were buying cattle. Is Mr. Renaghan saying all the processing of organically produced cattle is being done under the one banner? Is that correct?
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There is only one outlet for organically produced cattle in the country.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Did that sale of the company based in Cahir, in which the ABP Group bought a controlling stake, go to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission?
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Currently, there is only one buyer for organically produced cattle. I note Ms Brennan wishes to come in but I will bring in another parliamentarian, Senator Boyhan, and then Ms Brennan.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome this debate. It is timely with respect to organic farming, which contributes to the protection of the environment and climate and the long-term fertility of the soil, as referenced by Senator Daly who rightly placed great emphasis on it. It also relates to having high levels of biodiversity, a non-toxic environment and high animal welfare standards and, therefore, it must be of concern to this committee. Before I ask a few questions, I am conscious that the IFA submission stated that 2.6% of Ireland’s agricultural area is under organic production versus the European norm of 7.5%, which is quite low. Those are very low numbers and that must be disappointing. Clearly, we must be more ambitious. We would be familiar with the move to transforming food and farming through the EU organic action plan 2021 to 2027. We are also conscious of the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP. The programme for Government references increasing the amount of land we would use in organic production. Therefore, what are the issues? Much of it is about knowledge transfer. When we look back to 50 or 60 years ago, rural Irish farmers were practising organic farming. They did not have certificates of organic production. They left school at the age of 13 but they knew the land and the soil, and about animal husbandry. They knew what worked for them, which was particular to their land and given set of circumstances. There is much to be said for looking back at some of those practices. Farmers must be progressive in all areas, including in terms of generating food. One of the guests spoke about a stimulus package. What did they mean by a stimulus package? I would like to hear more about that. Clearly, we must do something. I am also mindful of knowledge transfer and innovation and I think we are missing something there. Are there enough market outlets for the smaller producers, particularly those engaged in organic vegetable, salad and food production? I go to organic markets every weekend.
I see producers throwing stuff out on a Saturday or Sunday evening. There are not enough marketplaces. I speak to a lot of producers who say that there are not opportunities to sell really high-quality organic, albeit seasonal, vegetables and fruits and that they do not have a place to market them. The big question I want to ask the two organisations is whether there is a case to implement some sort of policy or restriction that would ring-fence or set aside a percentage of Bord Bia's marketing budget for the promotion of organics. I am interested in the experience with Bord Bia one of our guests described. I have heard of others but I am still very supportive of Bord Bia and its work. It does good work. There are conflicts from time to time, of which we hear reports. Will both organisations share with us the measures they believe could be taken to market organics? If one does not have a marketplace and marketing budget, one will not be able to sell produce successfully. I am interested in having more produce but also in the stimulus package the organisations would suggest to achieve this increase. I do not believe 7% or 8% is ambitious enough. On an island like ours, there is capacity and capability to achieve a much greater increase.
Ms Niamh Brennan:
I work with the IFA as the executive secretary to the organic project team. To address some of the Senator's point, we 100% agree. We are used to hearing all of these figures thrown at us in Europe and at meetings of the Committee of Professional Agricultural Organisations, COPA. Unfortunately, we are at 2.6%. We are well below Australia, Estonia, Sweden and the likes, which exceed 20%. The programme for Government sets a target of 7.5% but there is a target of 25% in the agrifood strategy and the farm to fork document. What is the difference between A and B? What are the challenges? We in the IFA are clear that any increase in production must be market-driven. One cannot put stuff in the marketplace for which there is no market. That is our number one priority.
Of course, we are not here to reinvent the wheel either. An organics strategy development group was set up and established in 2018. We have big issues with that. It produced an excellent document. It brings together Teagasc, Bord Bia and all of the other stakeholders and sets out different aims. If these had been progressed, we would not be having this meeting today. We would have advanced much further than the current 2.6%. We have had two seats on that group since 2018 and, since then, that group has only met on one occasion, in March. This followed repeated requests from the IFA for the group to meet. We recently sent a letter outlining that the tillage and dairy farming sectors are not represented on this group, which is something we want addressed immediately. We want action points from each one of these meetings. There are some updates on the website but they are in the form of presentations and it is very hard to gather any hard facts from them. That is one thing on which we are strong. Everything we need is within that strategy group. A lot of work went into it. If that was fulfilled and progressed, we would be further along than we are.
I will address some of the other problems quickly. It was great that the organic farms scheme reopened but another major issue with the latest reopening, in which there were 317 applicants for a potential 400 or 500 places from the funding of €4 million, was that it was run in parallel with the results based environment agri pilot programme, REAP. Farmers in the IFA were contacting us and wondering what they should do. It is clear that there is not enough technical advice for farmers as to what direction to take. They were caught between a rock and a hard place. There was a higher payment per hectare for REAP but they may have been set on the organics up to that point. If there are two payments side by side and one is higher, that will make up a lot of people's minds as to what direction they will take. Since the scheme has closed, we have had farmers on to us saying that they would have went for it and that they are disappointed with the choice they made. Perhaps advisers in the sector were driving them towards the higher payment. That is the reality. We are clear that we want the organic farms scheme reopened immediately to allow the rest of the funds to be drawn down and to allow more farmers in.
We will back the Senator 100% with regard to research, innovation and knowledge transfer. The main issue is demand. Any increase in production must be market-driven. The report to which I have referred shows that market development is the number one aim of the organic strategy group. We would like to see more established markets for organic produce in Ireland and internationally, and public procurement could also be brought into it. It is not going to happen overnight but, if we work on the markets, we will move on a long way. Mr. Renaghan may also have points to make in that regard.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I have to bring in some other Deputies. I call on Deputy Michael Collins.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Many issues come before the committee of which I do not have much knowledge but I do have knowledge of the organic sector because I was involved in organic farming until last year. My son has now taken over the farm, which he is farming organically. I have been farming organically for the past 20 years or so. It is an area that has never grown. It is almost impossible to sell cattle as organic if one is in a peripheral area like a peninsula. Most of the time, I end up selling them in the ordinary market. The price is poor, to say the least. The grants are also poor so one is really being organic for the love of organic farming rather than for the love of financial remuneration. I pay tribute to Mr. Renaghan, with whom I have had a lot of communication down through the years with regard to raising issues of concern to try to rectify the situation of people with, perhaps, 70 acres of land. Such people pay a licence of approximately €600 a year and pay planners approximately €500 every year to get their plans, which generate €2,000 or €2,500. It is shockingly poor money.
I will ask a few questions but, first of all, I welcome the guests. I will refer to a matter raised earlier with regard to the 225 applications made in 2018. I met many of these farmers from my own area, as other Deputies have. They were exasperated. They had done courses. Some apparently had weekends out of it. There seems to be a great deal of criteria to qualify as an organic farmer. Previously someone had to fill out some forms and understand how it worked but now course after course is required. Somebody else is making a dollar out of these courses along the way. There were 225 applications but, after doing these courses, 110 applicants did not get into the scheme. Why was this the case? Why were people left outside the system?
Is public procurement of organic produce available through a producer group? The new organic farming scheme was not full. Do the witnesses know why? What is the difference in price between organic and non-organic beef? This is a big one. Some 98% of the market is not organic. Can something be forced through with regard to the organic sector so that there will be a market available for the beef cattle raised by organic farmers, no matter what part of the country they are from? Some people cannot live in the middle of the country. Regardless of whether someone lives in the south west, the north or anywhere else, everyone should have a market open to them. Perhaps the marts should be brought further into this. They could have a special organic sale every two or three months or something along that line. It is not happening. People are selling their cattle as non-organic after rearing them as organic. It is very unfortunate. Since I entered the organic sector 20 years ago, it has not moved. That is astonishing. We have had the Green Party in government before and it is in government again now. I will be very disappointed if there is not some kind of movement on the ground very quickly. I would appreciate it if some of those questions could be answered.
Mr. Joe Condon:
I will make a couple of points. People are trying to put a finger on what the obstacles are. I have some figures here. Some 10,750 people applied for the REAP while there were 317 applications for 500 places on the organic farming scheme. On an average farm with mixed types of land, a farmer would get €5,000 per year for five years under the green low-carbon agri-environment scheme, GLAS, which is €25,000.
The administration costs of that are 2.5%. On a similar piece of land, a farmer would get €2,000 per annum on the organic farming scheme for the same area. Over five years that comes to €10,000. The administration cost is 25%. There is a factor of tenfold on those costs. Almost ten times the number of people applied to get into the results-based agri-environment pilot, REAP. Those figures marry up. There is definitely a problem here.
The last point in our submission highlighted the need for an independent review of the entire system. I call on the Chairman to instruct the committee members to push for an independent review. Those involved in organic farming and the organic representative bodies would probably appreciate this being looked at by an independent set of eyes. There is a great future in it if the obstacles can be eliminated. Beef and lamb farmers who have a business plan to directly sell their products have priority access to any organic scheme. At the moment there is an obstacle to those people getting in. They do not score very high on the scoring matrix. That may also answer the question.
There has been reference here to a sort of monopoly on slaughtering. This would take a lot of that action away. A person would find their own butcher and sell locally at the local farmers' market or direct sell online or wherever. There are opportunities and I believe if there is a review those solutions can be proposed then. Instead of faulting the actions and the things that are there at the moment, we need to find a way around them through this review.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call on the other witnesses to respond to Deputy Michael Collins's questions.
Mr. Henry O'Donnell:
I would like to come back on a few points. Deputy Michael Collins has first-hand experience of what organic farmers are up against. The committee should listen very carefully to what he says. There are certain basic stumbling blocks preventing the development of organic farming, which the representatives present have outlined today. We will not solve these major stumbling blocks by working around the edges of the current scheme. It really needs to be looked at in detail. If it continues as it is going, it will discourage even more farmers.
As Deputy Collins mentioned, that cohort in 2018 were all potential organic farmers and were willing to enter a scheme, but 110 of them did not get in. They paid a professional to help them draw up an organic plan. They paid a certification body to certify that plan as being appropriate. They then spent a considerable amount of their time to be certified as having done organic training at a significant cost to themselves. In addition, they also farmed organically for nine months after their application until they were told they were unsuccessful. They purchased expensive organic feed. They started small tillage operations in their farm.
What was done to those farmers was criminal. It is no wonder that we did not get the 500 applicants this time. I am sure every one of those farmers told another ten farmers around them of the horrendous experience they had. Somebody needs to get a grip on this and take some control over it to ensure that it never happens to a farmer again. It would not be tolerated in any sector nor should it be.
Deputy Carthy made some points on commonage land. We have been told by the certifying parties that because it is commonage land and a range of owners are involved it cannot be classed as organic. I believe somebody with a bit of ambition could look at that. Where I live in Inishowen I am surrounded by commonages. They never received pesticides or fertilisers. They have been totally organically managed in my living memory. Farmers are grazing there to protect the biodiversity and are producing a fabulous product. If this scheme cannot be adjusted to accommodate that pristine landscape, there is not much ambition in our organic farming scene.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our guests. Rather than supporting the production of affordable food, the focus of the CAP negotiations seems to be on increasing environmental measures without the funding that would be needed to do so effectively. Commitments and targets have been signed up to without the backing of the agricultural sector here. In the race to catch up with our commitments, will the EU the funding be weighted to the larger operators to the detriment of our smaller family farmers?
We recently discussed alternatives to horticultural peat and the production of coir, for instance. It is said to have environmental consequences for the countries that produce it. When it comes to the alternatives for feed, additives and pesticides, we need to enable the organic farmers to prosper. What levels of self-sufficiency do we have in this regard? Could we develop our own capabilities to produce these items?
In Ireland we pride ourselves on our premium produce which is known throughout the world. It is dispiriting that successive Governments have paid little attention to producing organic food. This country has a global reputation for the finest produce that others can only dream of. This committee continually needs to discuss it. Over the years our farmers have not been presented with accessible and viable additions to their farming prospects. I ask the representatives here today to outline the experience of their members when giving consideration to getting into organic farming.
Mr. Nigel Renaghan:
Mention was made of the farmers in 2018. I concur with my colleague from Donegal because I was one of those farmers. I was one of the 63 who stuck with it even though I never got in. I have a modified building, a six-bay cattle shed. I was required to have a 60% lie-back area. All these things needed to be done at enormous cost. In addition to doing a course, I had to pay certification bodies. Sheds needed to be modified. It was horrendous. A farmer who is in conversion is not allowed to use ordinary meal and must buy organic meal. There are now only 63 of those farmers who never got in. An injustice was done to those farmers and I am one of them.
That needs to be rectified. We talk about getting people into organic farming. Most countries in Europe have public procurement for organics. The Government has a huge role to play in this area of public procurement.
There is huge potential for organic lamb. While there is not much demand for it from factories in Ireland, there is demand for it on the Continent. We are not in that space, however. The word missing from all of this is "seasonal". Let us take a farmer on Arranmore Island who is doing a joint venture with other farmers on the mainland. If they are to do organic lamb right, it needs to be seasonal and promoted as a seasonal product because that is what it is.
If we are to move organic farming on, we must have a payment. As has been said with regard to the payments, 25% of the money is accounted for by leakage to certification bodies, people doing up plans and so on. For us to drive this on, we need €520 for conversion and payment of €470 after two years. That may seem like a lot but bear in mind that under GLAS, a payment of €900 per hectare is available for wild bird cover. Let us compare like with like. We also need a 60% grant because the farmers are not in a position to use chemicals. Everything must be done manually and farmers need costly equipment to be able to do that. That must also be taken into consideration.
Reference was made to what we are doing and what we can do to promote organics. We held an organic producers day when we teamed up with Fáilte Ireland. We asked it if there would be any interest in funding. We did a joint venture with Fáilte Ireland. It was supposed to happen last year but Covid knocked that on the head and it was cancelled again this year. However, we had a day in Marlay Park for organic producers from across the country. We introduced them and it was a very successful day.
As Deputy Michael Collins said, it is important to note that anyone producing organic beef or other produce in a part of the country where there is no organic mart, that produce is lost to the system. That is a fundamental flaw. Better knowledge transfer is required. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine could provide a networking facility to enable organic producers to contact each other and sell or supply each other. Having more local abattoirs would also be of huge benefit. This would facilitate us farmers in being able to process.
Another area has not yet been touched on today. When we talk of what we can and cannot do in organic farming in Ireland, we must look at what is being imported. There is no point in Bord Bia talking about all this organic produce in Ireland because a lot it is not worth passing remarks on. We not going to start producing nuts in Ireland. It is just not going to happen. We have to see what we can produce and where we can produce it. We can produce organic beef and seasonal lamb. Flahavan's imports more than 3,000 tonnes of organic oats every year. We should be able to fit into that area and marry up with it. Even in my local area people are starting up mills to make flour. There is the tradition that says one can only make flour way down the country and that we cannot produce it here in the northern part of the country. There are, however, lots of parts of the country that can produce flour on a small scale, be it oats for eating or flour for bread making. It can be done and is being done. Farmers like us are not being incentivised and are not getting financial supports to be able to do that. Whether one likes it or not, most organic farmers are small farmers. We need supports to be able to do that, either at a co-operative level or at local level.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have a few questions. A farmer with a small amount of land who goes into organics receives a payment of approximately €600, while a farmer with 70 ha or 80 ha receives only €1,100 or €1,200. This puts off smaller farms. I would like the witnesses' views on that.
There is all this talk about getting €1 per kilo more for organic beef than for other beef. Mr. Renaghan mentioned that. Is it correct that there is actually no bonus involved in this? If we take out the 20 cent a farmer will get from rearing an animal in the conventional way, through the graze, and considering that it sometimes costs an organic farmer €40 or €50 to transport cattle because there is no choice, as was highlighted, it basically becomes unreasonable and unworkable to transport the cattle. Have options been looked at for exporting them on the hoof to places such as England for killing, as some other cattle go?
The Chairman might also respond to my next question. Lambs on a mountain in Mayo or Donegal are, in my view, organic. They are up on a hill the whole time. Is anything being done to try to get them in under the organic bracket?
Are the witnesses worried about the new scheme on straw? I am aware that criteria for producing organic state that the lying down area must be 50% slatted and the other 50% must be straw. Are the witnesses concerned that there has been a tilt towards dairy and tillage for organic? Off the top of my head, I believe there are some 1,700 or 1,800 people producing organic. We would get people into organics if we paid them the money. As was highlighted earlier, we would get people into organics if we looked at the schemes.
With regard to overheads, I would go higher than the 25% figure mentioned. If we taken the case of a farmer with 10 or 12 ha, of which there is one in my county, he or she will pay €600 to join an organic scheme. That cost and all the other bits involved meant it was a complete and utter waste of time. We have a Minister of State in the Department from the Green Party who is supposed to promote organic farming. It is a sad reflection on this country that we struggle to get rid of the produce.
Are organic lambs killed the same way as other lambs, or are they killed somewhere else? I am not aware if they are.
Have the witnesses met Bord Bia to see what markets it has? Lidl and Aldi, for example, have advertisements on RTÉ and TV3 stating everything is sourced in Ireland. We see images of a farmer walking around with a dog and cattle, and everything looks lovely. What is the story on the organic meat these supermarkets use? Are they buying anything here?
Mr. Henry O'Donnell:
I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for the questions. I totally agree with his first point on certification costs. The closest thing a conventional farmer gets to certification is Bord Bia approval. Some farmers may have difficulties with aspects of Bord Bia inspections but at least they are not charged for them. Surely the organic system could be the same and certification should not be an additional cost to a farmer?
As I said, conventional farmers are certified as Bord Bia-approved. Surely, there could be similar mechanism for organic farms. The next thing Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned is the transport of organic stock. I was laughing to myself thinking of that. Living 20 miles from Malin Head, I am acutely aware of this. Part of the issue, to my mind, is that the organic sector is not properly developed. If there were more farmers, more things could be done. There could be more co-operation. In the short term, our proposal put in that organic farmers should get access to at least a 60% targeted agriculture modernisation schemes, TAMS, grant for proper livestock transport trailers. The closest organic mart to me is Drumshanbo. If I were assisted and had a good transport trailer to transport them, it would be some help in the short term, at least.
Regarding the lack of organic lamb, Deputy Fitzmaurice is obviously aware that the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, INHFA, has spearheaded a campaign to develop a market for our hill lamb. As the Deputy rightly said, they are organic, for all intents and purposes. The current certification and organic system does not work, end of story. We have looked at it in great detail. That is part of our reasoning that our organic scheme needs to be overhauled. We have an organic product that we cannot get certified as organic; we cannot sell it as organic; and we cannot market it as organic. Therefore, there is something intrinsically wrong there. We have basically organic produce that cannot be certified.
The straw would be a concern. Organic farmers are more dependent on straw than anybody else. I would have thought it would be easy to provide a derogation to a conventional farmer. He would still get the straw chopping payment measure. He would still get the payment, if he were able to prove that he sold the straw to an organic farmer. Again, something could be done there.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The last member who wants to get in is Deputy Brian Leddin.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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This might have been broached already as I joined the meeting late. Apologies if witnesses have already answered this. I thank the witnesses for coming before us; it is much appreciated. From what I have heard, the focus is on what the State or the Government needs to do in order to support organic. However, I will turn it a little bit. What are the organisations doing to encourage their members to get involved in organic? They might give us some numbers around the number of members of their organisations who are involved in the various organic enterprises, such as dairy, beef, and so on.
Mr. Nigel Renaghan:
I can take that question. First, there are only 1,800 organic farmers in the country. It is not a massive number of farmers. That is the first starting point. On what we are doing, we have an organic project team within IFA. That was set up by John Curran, the Meath chairman, and myself. That has only been up and running for approximately three years. Since then, we had a producer day in Marlay Park. We have lobbied in the same way as Mr. O’Donnell. We are all looking for the same things. We are trying to get a margin for farmers. In terms of what we are doing, there is an island off Donegal called Árainn Mhór Island. We have been out there a couple of times. They are not able to finish the lamb that comes off the mountain on the island. We have had two meetings: one with the Longford lamb producer group, and one with the Monaghan lamb producer group. The Monaghan lamb producer group is the biggest lamb producer group in the country. We spoke to the boys on the island and asked them about the number of lambs that they have. We are talking about finishing them off in either Longford or Monaghan and selling them as Árainn Mhór lamb in a kind of joint venture. That is what we are looking at doing.
In terms of the market for lambs, there is some market for lamb. Irish Country Meats is paying €8.40 a kilo for organic lamb. If people are in a producer group, that is what they are doing that. The other thing is that the demand has to be created. These are the people who can create that demand. The Government has a huge weight on its shoulders in how it promotes this. How does one get it up to 7.5%, or get up to 25% of the European-----
Mr. Nigel Renaghan:
To be honest, we can produce beef, lamb, grain, or whatever it is, but do we know if we have a market for that at the end of it? I refer to the Government taking this up under public procurement and to people taking a percentage of our product. At least I know that if I plant oats or if I produce meat or vegetables-----
Mr. Nigel Renaghan:
It is the biggest thing that could be done for us. It could be done for producer groups. There are different ways of doing it. That would be a huge way of helping us, because organic food is a little more expensive. There is no point in denying it. The production is about 20% less. I mention the one labour unit. It is taking 2.35-----
Mr. Nigel Renaghan:
Bear in mind that if we did have the burst production we are talking about and we got up to the level everybody wants, the first thing that would happen is that supermarkets would turn around and say I have loads of produce, so they are going to cut my price by 25%. As I would have nowhere else to go, they would have caught me. That would happen commercially. That is why people are afraid, in terms of organic. They do not want to see what has happened with the commercial farmers who are growing vegetables, producing beef, or whatever it is. That is why a food regulator or food ombudsman would be important. At the end of the day, if we get the increase in production, there should be someone there to protect the farmer in terms of selling it in supermarkets.
I was in a supermarket the other day and I saw organic potatoes from Scotland. They were €1 a kilo. However, the potatoes that were produced in Ireland were €1.25. These were organic potatoes coming from Scotland and the conventional ones were €1.25. I do not understand that.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Renaghan. On behalf of the committee, I thank representatives from the IFA and the INHFA for engaging with us on the challenges and opportunities for organic farming in Ireland. I propose we suspend the meeting for two minutes, while we allow the other witnesses to join us.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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For the second section of the meeting, I welcome the following witnesses: from the Irish Organic Association, IOA, Ms Gillian Westbrook, CEO, and Mr. Stephen Meredith, policy officer; and from the Organic Growers of Ireland, OGI, Ms Grace Maher, steering committee member. All witnesses are joining remotely and are all welcome to the meeting. We have received their opening statements, which have been circulated to members. We are limited in our time, due to Covid-19 restrictions, so the committee has agreed that the opening statements be taken as read, so that we can use the full session for questions and answers. All opening statements are published on the Oireachtas website and are publicly available.
Before we begin, I will read an important notice on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they will give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Participants in the committee meeting from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that the constitutional protections afforded to those participating from within the parliamentary precincts does not extend to them. No clear guidance can be given on whether, or the extent to which, participation is covered by the absolute privilege of a statutory nature.
I now invite questions from the members. I call Deputy Collins.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I welcome our guests here today. I spoke previously about the difficulties many farmers have. I was in organic farming for 20 years until last year when my son took over and he is involved in it now. The organic scheme has not moved in the 20 years I was farming. It is stagnant. Farmers are getting very poor payments. They are only doing it for the love of being organic. There is a strict criterion in place but that is not an issue with any farmer. They get inspected on the farm once every 12 months. It costs roughly €600 to have a licence. If a farmer is on about 70 acres with €2,500 taken in payments, he or she would be lucky to have €1,000 profit - if we want to call it profit - a year.
I know the witnesses are in the governing bodies, which are over organic farming, but have they any connections with the Department to see if organic farming can be progressed from where it is at present and to encourage people to come into it? We spoke about the 225 people who, in 2018, went to great lengths and costs to register as organic farmers but 110 of those did not get in. Some 63 went into organic conversion thinking they would be certified organic but failed to do so. Things have not got better. We have the Green Party in government now and things should get better. I come at this issue from the perspective of having been an organic farmer, and proud to have been one, but it is not for profit. It is for the love of the land that most farmers are doing it now.
Could the two organisations get involved in the sale of animals for farmers and be active in that? For many farmers in rural areas, there is no sale for their cattle. There is no point in telling them that there is a sale elsewhere in the country because they cannot take cattle 150 km to 200 km to be sold. Could the organisations organise with the marts so that there could be a mart in every area once every two to three months when it is time to sell cattle? There needs to be some movement here. I am worn in the tooth from saying this. Working with organisations and looking at the poor grant payments and the criteria, one will soon have to become some kind of a professor to become an organic farmer. That is not the way it should be. Farmers are a protector of their lands and most of them love their land and will protect it. They deserve the right to be organic, if they want to be in organic farming. They do not need to be doing courses. Of course, they need to be advised but it is not paying them. Can the witnesses shed any light on this? Do they see this moving in a different direction from where it is at this stage?
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
On behalf of the Irish Organic Association, I thank the committee for the invitation to be here today. I am sorry but I missed the first few minutes. Something went wrong with the system. It was going fine but then it suddenly crashed.
I take Deputy Collins's point. In encouraging farmers, a much more progressive common strategic plan is required to support organic farmers going forward. We understand there were issues in 2018, which was a targeted scheme, for farmers coming in. I must admit that it was targeted and agreed by the organic strategy group because there was a limited budget. The budget will underline many of our responses here today and financial supports will form a large part of it. In terms of how we move forward with this, we have a significant amount of ideas put forward. We have been very active, as members know, on our climate and Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, submissions, and development work, etc., that we try to do. The only thing we do not get involved in is sales. We used to book animals into the mart for all organic farmers in Ireland and that has stopped. Farmers book them in now. There are many more marts but perhaps still not sufficient numbers.
On the farmers who came into the scheme in 2018, as Deputy Collins said, many farmers did not get in. Some 63 farmers who managed to come in have stayed and of the 317 farmers who came in this year, one would have to deduct that. There were other farmers who did not get in but who had previously been in organics. Therefore, there were not 317 new farmers. It is trailing behind, and there is no nice way to say this. It is lagging behind, and it is a bit of an embarrassment in terms of the rest of the EU. Ireland should be a leader in organic production. We certainly agree with all the things, or at least most of them, the previous speakers mentioned.
In terms of the minimum stocking rate for hill farmers, etc., we do not set that rate. That is set by the Department and I am sure it will be happy to take members' questions on that. We will be happy to listen in on that as well.
As I said, minimum stocking rates is for the Department. I refer to a previous question on the commonage area and some of the barriers that were addressed. Farmers can use commonage, however, they do not get an organic farming payment from it because it is not under that control, even for hefted flocks, etc.
We would like to see a significant increase and we are happy to discuss that today. We have many ideas on how that can be done. Some of the previous speakers alluded to parts of that in terms of public procurement, proper promotion and some sort of cohesive strategy.
In terms of ambition, it seems that just a small amount of interest would be accepted more so than ambition. We would like to see a significant push. We think it is here and that it can be sold. It is a win-win situation in terms of its environmental and climate contribution. It answers the call for more product. Consumers are asking for more products and we need to deliver this. My colleague, Mr. Meredith, might like to come in on this.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I will let him in shortly. I will let other Deputies and Senators in and then go back to the witnesses.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests from the Irish Organic Association and the Organic Growers of Ireland. If time allows, over the course of the hearing, can witnesses outline specifically what they see their role as organisations vis-à-visthe other organic groups and farm organisations that we have spoken about. We need to move to a point where we have a clear voice coming from the organic sector and the witnesses' organisations. Judging by their opening statements, they have done a significant amount of work researching and outlining how this sector can be supported and grown in the coming years. We all agree that we have an embarrassing level of organic farming in this State and it is something we need to have tighter control over.
In both statements, the witnesses highlighted the need for increased marketing, CAP supports and additional advisory supports. In each of these areas, what are the witnesses specifically asking for? On the scheme, how much do we need? How should we change that scheme to make it more attractive and fairer? How much needs to be invested in marketing? I asked a question earlier about whether we need to ring-fence a portion of Bord Bia's budget towards this and likewise with advisers. How can it be best delivered in terms of advisory support?
Are we looking at Bord Bia or Teagasc or is there a need for a separate body with a specific remit around organic farming? What is the secret ingredient we need to bring the current dismal levels of organic farming towards the EU average, and beyond that, towards the EU targets in coming years? Are there one or two proposals this committee could recommend to the Department?
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
I thank the Deputy for his challenging question about how to solve the whole problem. We need to correlate with the EU action plan and the 2030 agrifood strategy and we need proper co-ordination between the various policies, including the CAP. The strategy, and the CAP strategic plan specifically, needs to align with public spending. There is no doubt about that. There are also things like Horizon Europe. Europe has put considerable funding towards research and innovation so we need to align policies with that. If the EU says we need to put a certain percentage of the funding into organics, then maybe we should ring-fence the budget for that. I had not considered that but it is a good idea. We also have other national programmes and the likes of Bord Bia.
We think the target should be closer to 12% and should be supported with a pull-push approach. It is all very well to say that we are going to get to 7.5%. That is the EU average now but it will not be the EU average by 2030 so we need to look ahead a little and see what we can do. If 30% of the research budget is for the agrifood sector, and specifically for organics, then we should put 30% of the budget towards it. We also need a combination of EU and Irish research to meet that target, although that is easier said than done. It is easy to rattle this off. However, coming up with a proper strategy is certainly not impossible. We only have to look around the rest of Europe to see how other countries have managed to do it. We have initiatives such as the national soil sampling programme and the farm biodiversity study but we need equal access to pilot schemes, carbon farming and the development of monitoring systems. We are reading some good work in Ag Climatise. It is good and we welcome it but quite a few issues have been omitted. I will leave it to others to discuss those issues but it would be nice to see some recognition of organics in Teagasc's MACC curve, for example. The EPA has called for an agrifood policy of 25% organic farming to meet its farm to fork strategy, although that is an EU target rather than an Irish one.
We have to recognise that organic farming contributes to the reduction of pesticides, a 20% reduction in fertiliser use and a 50% reduction in antimicrobials and so on. Dare I say it, what is really required is a disruptive change of culture at all levels. That is how we will be able to adapt and continue to make a living in farming in Ireland. Otherwise, we are going to get left behind. We will come to a tipping point soon where consultations and business concerns will become irrelevant and we are going to be made to do it. The Government is going to have to answer to the taxpayers as to why it is buying carbon credits and paying fines for non-compliance. If we could get over that cultural shift initially, that would be a big step forward.
As regards our role, we are running a European innovation partnership with 11 farmers but that can certainly be reproduced elsewhere. The point of it is that it will be replicated. As regards what others can do, such as the Department, Teagasc and Bord Bia, they could provide better marketing, and Teagasc specifically could do better farm advisory. The recent call for the organic farming scheme was a bit disappointing but a lot of people went into REAP instead because it was more incentivised financially for both the farmer and the adviser. We need to ring-fence the marketing budget, or alternatively, put it out to tender to someone who feels more appropriate to do the job. We need to give it a big push and not be scared to highlight the environmental attributes of organic farming. It is good for rural development, rural communities and agriculture.
The Deputy asked whether we need a separate advisory body. It would be nice to see some demo farms. That is in Ag Climatise and two grassland or tillage farms are to be put through with Teagasc but it would have been nice to see a blueprint for the dairy side as well. Maybe that will happen soon.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses from the different groups. I have a few quick-fire questions. It was highlighted earlier that there is basically only one place killing cattle at the moment because of mergers. Did any of the groups put in a submission objecting to that?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Were the witnesses concerned about it?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is Ms Westbrook concerned that there is only one place to kill cattle now?
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
It is not so much about there being one place to kill. There are other places to go with the cattle but, generally, a monopoly is not ideal. We have spoken to the processor - I will not name them as it would be inappropriate to do so - and they have basically said that if they can get more product in, they can go for larger markets, which is an interesting point. At the moment, the main processor in organics can only go to relatively small markets and not some of the larger well-known European supermarkets because they do not have enough product. At the moment it is still relatively small.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Do the organisations get funding from the Government or the EU?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How much?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is fair. I hear about this next issue day in, day out. For a farmer who has 10 ha, certification costs approximately €600. With Bord Bia, if the farmer is not in organics, it is free. Why is there not a scheme to encourage farmers whereby they would not have to pay that €600? If they had 60 or 70 ha the fee would be €1,000 or €1,200. It is a fierce front-load on a small operator with what they will get out of it. What are the witnesses' comments on that?
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
Our fees start at €195 for small growers and go up to €600 but that would be for a very large farm of approximately 600 ha. For a farmer with 10 ha, it would be somewhere around €380. I can give the exact amount but I will not leave the room to do so at the moment. It is not €600. What was the other part of the question?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When Bord Bia comes out to a farm it is able to give farmers their certification.
They go through the different things, I know it is online at the moment, and it does not cost. Why can the same system not be introduced in organic agriculture to encourage people to go into it because there is huge room, as all the witnesses pointed out?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
If we were getting the same funding as Bord Bia, we would not charge either. The two private companies that run the Bord Bia certification are like ourselves. They are subcontracted to do the inspection work. I believe they inspect every 18 months. We have to do it annually because we are governed by an EU regulation on organics that requires an annual inspection plus all subcontractors, abattoirs and distribution, that is, the full chain. We have to do the full chain. I am sure that if they wanted to reassess how it is done, that is possible. It might involve deducting the money further up the chain. I do not know what the funding regime for Bord Bia is but I am sure Bord Bia inspection is being subsidised somewhere - if not directly by the farmer than through general taxpayers' money.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Ms Westbrook said that Bord Bia uses a private company and that every few years, it must tender. Is the IOA obliged to tender to the Department to get the job of giving certification to farmers?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is any part of-----
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Maher wish to comment on that?
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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As we cannot hear Ms Maher, Deputy Fitzmaurice can continue.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can Ms Maher hear us now?
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think so.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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She is frozen.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We can hear her again.
Ms Grace Maher:
My apologies; members are well used to the rural network. The Organic Growers of Ireland's membership ranges from small growers operating on a single hectare up to those operating on 40 to 50 ha. All of those certified organic growers are obviously paying a licence fee. As many of the smaller growers are not in receipt of any farm payment, they are not eligible for the organic farming scheme because they are simply too small. Growers on this scale are quite happy to pay a licence fee because having certification gives them access to the organic market. Having a licence opens up market opportunities for growers in the OGI.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does the IOA have any input into looking at new markets? Farmers face transport costs of stock and as for the difference in price, many of them in my area would be as well off going to the conventional factories to kill them because of the cost of bringing the stock. Is any emphasis being put on markets? Does the IOA have involvement in that? Has the IOA looked at sending cattle on the hoof to the likes of the UK? I believe it is £6 for organic beef in the UK. Has anyone looked at that to try to entice more people into it?
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
Basically we are an organic certification body. In terms of markets, we do promotional work and share an awful lot of information in the many articles we write through our Organic Mattersmagazine, of which a display is behind me here. We give an awful lot of information and support that way. We do not specifically try to sell people's cattle nor do we try to find markets but we do engage at a European level so any questions we get here, be it for farm to farm for example, we put all of those up on our websites and we put farmers in contact with farmers and if we get buyers looking to source organic product, we will put people together for that. The European innovation partnership, EIP, we have run is obviously the first market orientation-related EIP and we put in for that to take it on to give an example of what could be done using a collaborative approach for growers with small and large farmers mixed in that. We do not do marketing other than our social media promotions. We are not involved in selling cattle off the hoof.
Ms Grace Maher:
We do not have the resources to get involved in marketing. The vast majority of our members would sell directly to the public so they run their own marketing campaigns. Based on that, the OGI would call for a national marketing campaign specifically on organic farming. I think Deputy Carthy asked what would be on the wish list. That is something that should be looked at. It would obviously be beneficial to the horticulture sector and would certainly build on promotion at local level by individual farm businesses, which is what is currently happening. As an organisation, we do not get involved in marketing. We just do not have the resources.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for their attendance. Ms Westbrook said earlier that we should not be afraid to highlight the environmental attributes of organics. I could not agree more. Perhaps it is not said enough. One of the attributes she did not mention, which I am sure she would mention if she had another go, was reducing emissions, which is a significant focus of the State through to 2030 and beyond. It seems that if we can enhance the organic sector and set policy so that farmers are incentivised to get into it such that they get a fair price for the produce they bring to market, that seems to be a no-brainer for the State. I noticed that Ms Westbrook mentioned that the target is 7.5% organics by 2030 and that Europe is moving so we should move and not stick with the 7.5% target. I do not know whether she meant all elements of organics or whether it was one element in particular. Dr. Oliver Moore from University College Cork, UCC, wrote recently about how organics could take off in Ireland. He mentioned that 12% was being achieved in Normandy or Brittany in France. He was speaking about dairy farming. Does Ms Westbrook think this level is achievable in Ireland within the decade? What are the policy barriers to getting there?
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I might let in Mr. Meredith. He has been looking to get in for a while.
Mr. Stephen Meredith:
On Deputy Leddin's points and going back to issue of needing a package of measures, we have an organic strategy that sets out a roadmap for where we need to go. Obviously, we need to build on that and on the new EU organic action plan to make sure it is aligned. It is then that we need to look at the nuts and bolts of the different schemes that are offered to organic farmers.
The schemes are very important in sending a signal to farmers about the way the Government wants to see agriculture develop over time. The EU has been clear on that in respect of the European Green Deal. In the programme for Government, Ireland has set out the 75%. It really comes down to the schemes that the Government wants to put in place. Much of the focus was placed on the organic farming scheme in the last session. We would agree with much of that. Some points to highlight include that the scheme must be attractive and reliable. In the current CAP period, the scheme has only been opened four times, whereas the scheme is usually opened regularly across different European countries. That allows farmers and food businesses to plan in advance. That is key. Conversion to organic farming does not happen overnight. It is a two-year process before farmers can start to use the symbol. Therefore, a scheme needs to be put in place which farmers know is going to be open regularly. It also must be open for an extended period. An opening period of two months is better than what was provided in the past. There needs to be a more regular opening so that farmers have time to plan. In some cases farmers will try to plan the system themselves, and in others, they will ask for advisers. Those are the points I wish to make on the organic farming scheme.
I am aware that the IFA mentioned that there needs to be an increase in payment rates. If we compare the current rates with the EU member states, we are well below the EU average. That sends a very strange signal to farmers. The organic farming scheme is definitely the starting point. However, it needs to go further than that. The Deputy touched upon the issue of environmental performance and climate. The Government can use organic farming as a tool to move further into and build on the green reputation that farmers have, as many of the Deputies mentioned. That is where we see the combination of organic farming and agri-environment schemes as a win-win for developing further organic and making it more attractive, but also achieving those environmental targets. Currently, there are problems with GLAS because organic farmers have priority access to GLAS but some of the farmers have to forego their organic farming payment, despite it not being a requirement of the organic regulations. That sends a strange signal. There are situations, for example, where farmers may want to manage a traditional hay meadow or a low-input permanent pasture, or even farm land birds, and they are told they can do that but they must forego their organic farming payment to do so. That means that a farmer has to make a strange decision at a time when he could deliver both elements.
The land management schemes are important. We saw a lot of promise with the new REAP scheme. Many of the objectives go beyond the standards of organic farming in terms of improving species variety, managing hedgerows, etc. However, organic farmers were excluded from the scheme. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine is on record as saying that it is double funding. For us, it is not clear that that is the case. The outcomes that are pursued under that scheme are precisely what organic farmers can deliver if they are given the right incentives. The objectives of the scheme go beyond the organic standards, as I stated. We know that it is a pilot scheme. We would hope that organic farmers will be prioritised in the roll-out of the full scheme and the new CAP. It is also very important that we move beyond that and think about the eco scheme. If we are really serious about targeting organic farming, we need to link the schemes to a budget.
In the current programming period since 2014, there has been a 42% increase in organic land. However, we have still not reached the 5% target set in Food Harvest 2020. There seems to be a disconnect between the budget that is allocated for the CAP and that available for the organic farming scheme and also for agri-environment payments, etc. Land management is definitely a big area.
Deputy Carthy spoke on the issue of advisory services. It is fair to say that Teagasc has a number of basic advisory services for organic farmers. They tend to be mainly relevant to farmers doing conversion. It is fair to say that the services are quite basic. The farming associations have pointed to the fact that are only two organic advisers. One was recently hired. We understand that there are a number of general advisers who also focus on organic farming but we are yet to find a list of them. We want to see a certain percentage of the accredited farm advisers being organic. Perhaps it needs to be 7% to represent that target. We need to think about ensuring we have advisers who understand that organic farming is not simply about reducing the use of fertiliser - it is about completely changing the system and thinking about how the land and farm management and animal health and welfare work. Advisers are needed to do that. As well as the advice, knowledge transfer is required. That was touched up by the farming organisations. That could work hand in hand, with advice being provided by Teagasc or the private adviser and the use of facilitated group meetings that allow farmers to share their knowledge with others. Such knowledge transfer could be within sectors or cross-sectoral.
Those are some of the measures that we would like to see put in place. It really needs to be tied to a very strong budget.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for attending today and for their submissions. I have a few questions. Some of what I intended to ask has already been covered and dealt with efficiently.
On the organic growers' submission, I have a question concerning the sourcing of organic seed for the sector post Brexit. I ask for more elaboration on that. Could there potentially be a future for Ireland in becoming an organic seed producer now that we have identified that there is a gap in the market? We had a similar issue with the organic and inorganic seed potato post Brexit. It has been addressed. A big drive has been undertaken with a view to us becoming producers. Is there an opportunity there?
The other question I have is more a discussion point in respect of organics in the current climate action debate and the traditional regulation and certification of organic farms. The consumers really see the emphasis as being on the quality of the food coming from the lack of pesticides, herbicides and artificial fertilisers; and in the meat products, from the lack of microbial intervention, etc. In the current debate, is there enough emphasis on the sustainability side and the actual carbon footprint of the produce and the food? I could be an organic farmer tomorrow morning and tick all the boxes, have the organic packaging and the stamp and meet all the criteria. However, I could be using the biggest diesel-guzzling tractor in the world on the farm and nobody would even be aware of that. Therefore, do we need to tie the whole sustainability side of organics into it and give farmers a better chance to become organic if they can prove that they are environmentally-friendly and have low carbon emissions, which they could achieve by tying in some microgeneration as part of their overall farm process?
In the research I have done and the material I have read on organics, nearly every article opens with the positive of the increased demand for the product, but the number of farmers who want to become organic is not keeping pace with that increased demand. "Why so because", as they say down in our country?
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
I will take some of the questions. I will leave the one on seeds for Ms Maher, if I may, as it is her area. Climate action was raised by Senator Paul Daly and Deputy Leddin. We see there is a clear advantage in the climate argument for organics, namely, that, as identified in the Ag Climatise document, approximately 40% of nitrous oxide emissions are associated with chemical nitrogen fertilisers. I point to that alone and note that , which does not take into account the manufacturing footprint of the fertiliser. Obviously, removing that 40% nitrous oxide completely would be very beneficial. That is just a back-of-the-envelope calculation that stands out. Not that we put an awful lot of emphasis on carbon sequestration but that has a big part to play and carbon farming is becoming more and more apparent. We think organic farming has an awful lot to offer in the context of climate action. That is why the EU is supporting it as well, which is worth pointing out. There is a reason it is in there with the European Green Deal and that is to answer many of these challenges society is facing. That is why it is being supported and there is a myriad of research to support that. Various evaluations have been done and one of the Scottish systems, for example, was showing just what could be done in that it found organic farming had the single highest emission reduction opportunities. There is a huge amount of supporting information and as I said, that is why it is being supported by the policy.
The Senator referred to the quality of food. It absolutely is quality food. One of the reasons the food sells so well in the EU is because it is associated with Ireland and the whole artisan side. The organic one is often the one that actually gets there first and onto the shelf. There is a massive reputation in that regard. It is a quality product and we need to be proud that it is. Consumers, as supported by Bord Bia, have no problem spending at least 10% extra on organic products. Thus, organics should not be knocked for that but should instead be supported. On the sustainability package, I absolutely agree; the sustainability is actually in the regulations. These regulations have been developed since 1991. They were around before but were never formalised and legislated for until 1991. Sustainability is actually enshrined through the regulations. That is why the whole sustainability package and organics is certainly part of the European Green Deal.
In terms of increased demand, there is a massive increase in demand but what is more important is where the projected demands are going to be coming from. We in Ireland hover around at between 1.6% and 2% organic farmland. The rest of Europe is gearing up. We can try to sell it under some other sustainability package but members should also bear in mind there is a massive amount of marketing and support going into the EU logo put on organic foods. When all that is tied together as a package, sustainability is at the heart of organic production. It always has been. It has been a driver of it. It has been used by others since then and sometimes in an "almost organic" or "organic lite" form, or whatever one wishes to call it, but organics is very much the real thing and that is because it contributes to our environment, our climate, etc. in a positive way. We can look at other means of assessing carbon footprints and sometimes there tends to be a bit of cherry-picking in what we use. In other words, do we use the input from a contractor, or if the farmer does not use one then are we using that carbon footprint? Overall, however, I would say that organics comes out on top of all of these.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will be brief because I am conscious of time. We have had a really good debate. One might call it one of the great frauds or whatever but we have the clean, green Ireland image yet we are the second lowest in Europe for organic farming. That is really being hammered home today. I thank the various guests who have highlighted that but it is a real challenge to everyone involved in agriculture. I have one question. It is for Ms Maher and it is on the subject of organics in horticulture. We did not have time to cover it as much as I would have liked. I am a professional horticulturist and have studied horticulture. I was involved in organic trials in Kinsealy in the 1970s and 1980s, mostly the 1980s. Ms Maher highlighted the need for internships, partnerships, learning and knowledge transfer. I note by the way that though it was said that the Department does not fund the OGI it does supply funding for training. The witnesses may correct me if I am wrong to say that. In just a few sentences, will Ms Maher outline how she would like us to develop the training, internships and knowledge transfer training specifically in relation to organic horticulture?
Ms Grace Maher:
I thank the Senator for the question. I am only here to speak on organic horticulture but I concur with much of the sentiment that is being expressed at this meeting. We do not receive funding as an organisation; we are a voluntary organisation. Certainly the OGI operates on a shoestring in that context. We do, however, receive funding for an internship programme that we developed in 2014. That was really to react to a lack of training opportunities within the sector. It is running seven years and 48 interns have gone through the programme, with many of them gaining employment opportunities directly on organic farms so that is a success story.
I will also address Senator Paul Daly's question on the seeds. The whole area of organic horticulture is actually a success story. Sales are growing exponentially and producers are finding it very hard to keep up with market demand. This is an issue, as Senator Paul Daly raised, of running into barriers where we cannot supply what the market is demanding. Going back to what Deputy Leddin said earlier about emissions, at the moment in the horticulture sector we are still importing 70% of organic fruit and vegetables sold in Ireland. Thus, when we talk about climate and emissions, that is something that really needs to be addressed. We have under 200 members. Per the statistics from the Department on organic growers, there are 385 certified organic growers in the country. They are supplying every aspect of the retail chain. They are supplying the big supermarkets, the major multiples, the catering sector, independent specialists and stores, online sales, market sales and importantly, they are dealing directly with consumers. Consequently, they are very much on-trend with consumer needs and what consumers want and Irish consumers want more local organic produce. The stats from Bord Bia indicate that in 2020 sales of organic fruit and vegetables in Irish multiples increased by 38%. As a result, it is a huge opportunity in terms of markets. As Deputy Leddin said, it is a no-brainer, and the embarrassingly low level was mentioned earlier by Deputy Carthy. We really need to address this issue. The opportunities are there and from the OGI's perspective, we would like to see more support for training.
Senator Paul Daly mentioned the whole seeds area. We are seeing opportunities there. We have some interest from some of the indigenous seed companies which see that Europe is serious about organics; whether Ireland is or not is another matter but Europe certainly is. If 25% of land area is certified organic by 2030 all of those organic farmers need to use organic seed, so we in OGI would certainly like to see some national funding being directed towards organic seed development and to organic seed breeding programmes specifically. That could be through public private partnerships but ideally we would love to see participatory programmes. These happen in other European countries and consist of farmers, growers, plant breeders, seed companies, researchers and everybody involved along the way in developing seeds and varieties which are suitable to the Irish climate. Unfortunately, most of the research we are dealing with at present tends to come from other European countries.
We need more research and more education. You cannot do a third level degree in organic farming in Ireland, and in this day and age asking people to go into an industry when they cannot get a third level qualification in it is something out of the dark ages. We need to get real on education. The market opportunities are there. The problem in the organic horticulture sector is that growers simply cannot keep up with demand. If you grow good-quality organic vegetables and fruit, they will sell. That is not only the anecdotal experience of small growers but also the message coming from the buyers at multiple levels. Put Irish-grown organic produce on the shelves and it will sell.
Some of our growers are involved in the EIP project to which Ms Westbrook alluded earlier. That has been a phenomenal success in improving on-farm efficiencies and supplying more product into the sector. Collectively, we just need to see some support. As I outlined, many OGI members are not in receipt of any payment, so something like the small farmers scheme, which is adopted in other EU countries, may be an option. We need support right throughout the supply chain, from training and research to marketing opportunities.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak, Chairperson.
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Maher has covered most of what I was going to say. To come back on what Senator Boyhan said, it is no wonder Ireland ranks second lowest in Europe for organic farming when the research into organic crop production is being done by the groups themselves and there is no funding for it. No supports are being given in order that potential suppliers can grow. I wonder about the research end of this. Ms Maher mentioned the small farmers scheme in place in 15 other countries under the CAP. Have the witnesses priced an overall package? How much would it cost a government to get involved in this? I imagine that in the overall scheme of things it would be very little money, but the potential to grow that sector could be huge. As Deputy Leddin said earlier, it is a no-brainer that the Government should come on board with the witnesses such that groups such as theirs should not have to depend on doing any kind of research themselves. Have the witnesses a ballpark figure for these kinds of schemes being supported like that?
Ms Grace Maher:
I will come in briefly on that. Bluntly, the answer is "No". Again, we have not done any kind of financial measurement of this, but the committee should note that, as I said, there are 385 certified organic farmers in the country. That number has grown from 300 in 2017, so we have seen a 30% growth in the number of organic growers coming into the sector. While overall there is not a lot of movement, there certainly is the will from growers to get involved in the sector because they see it as a growing sector. We would love to see some indigenous research carried out in the context of organic horticulture in Ireland.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Westbrook or Mr. Meredith want to make a final comment?
Ms Gillian Westbrook:
I echo what Ms Maher has just said about research. We do not have a final figure. We have done a European innovation partnership and done our own crop trials and things like that on heritage wheat. We publish all our information. We collate an awful lot of information across the EU to share with farmers and publish that in order that they can learn from it, but we do not really know about the costing side. We are talking to various parties about getting more involved. We see that an awful lot of research institutes are looking more towards researching organic here in Ireland because the funding will be made available through the Horizon funding stream. An awful lot more are coming on board and they are certainly needed. We can do an awful lot here. Interestingly, in some of our promotional videos and other things we did we promoted farmers growing heritage wheat and so on in the likes of the Monaghan and Cavan area. It is interesting that apparently people were told over many generations that they could not grow cereals there. Well, they can, they have done a really good job and it is a fantastic product. There is a massive amount of opportunity here to add value to output in some cases. The beef and lamb sector is a huge one for us, but there are also an awful lot of opportunities for cereal growers, be it for their own livestock or for the bakery and distillery industries. Research is greatly needed. I do not know if Mr. Meredith wanted to come in on that.
Mr. Stephen Meredith:
The point we really want to get across today is that we have an organic action plan and we need to update it to link it with the European Green Deal and the action plan relating to it, but that means putting money behind actions. We can no longer be in a situation in which you have the best will in the world with an organic strategy group but there is no real money behind it. We really need to understand how much CAP money will be used to develop organic farmland and to maximise the environmental performance organic farmers can deliver. Ms Westbrook and Ms Maher have mentioned the research. Then we need to look at marketing. Bord Bia does some really good stuff for the agriculture sector overall. There are a number of interesting initiatives for organic but we need a coherent strategy behind them. It can no longer be a case of initiatives here and there. We need a clear strategy as to how Bord Bia will push organics market development further in Ireland. Also, we need to draw down the funds that are available. Looking at the promotional programming, not a single amount of the money drawn down in Ireland went to organics, whereas in Denmark and Austria, for example, at least a third of that money went specifically to the organic sector. It is really about looking at the national funds and the EU funds and having a clear package that we can link. We can have nice words and action plans and strategies, but if there is not money behind them, we will not reach the 7% target, or even 12% and beyond. We really need to capitalise. The markets are there and farmers are interested but they need to have a clear pathway to make that move. As I said, it does not happen overnight.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of the committee, I thank the representatives of the Irish Organic Association and the Organic Growers Ireland for attending today and sharing their views on organic farming in Ireland.
I propose that we hold a private meeting on Microsoft Teams at 9 a.m. on Friday, 18 June. Is that agreed?
Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I will not be able to make it.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I have my morning clinics on Fridays.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I have just looked at my calendar and that does not suit me either.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We will meet on Monday at 9 a.m. instead as that suits members better. The next public meeting of the joint committee will be held on Tuesday, 22 June, at 3.30 p.m., when we will continue our discussion of the topic of organic farming with Teagasc, Bord Bia and others.