Ms Sadhbh O'Neill:

I thank the Deputy for her interesting questions on the narrative. She is hitting on something very important. In other countries where more research has been carried out into alternative scenarios and narratives, some interesting findings have been published. For example, there is a well-known report produced in the UK by the Centre for Alternative Technology in Wales called Zero Carbon Britain, which has been updated since its first publication. This report maps out exactly what zero emissions for the UK would look like and uses that as a backcasting tool to work out what the implications are for land use. Unsurprisingly, the report found that there needs to be a shift away from livestock production, which implies a concomitant shift towards, in the main, more plant-based diets. I refer to diets that do not exclude meat entirely but which are plant-based. More land would also be devoted to the production of food for humans rather than the production of feed for agricultural livestock. Unfortunately, we do not have a similar mapping exercise available to us in Ireland which we could present to the public or to farmers to show what zero carbon looks like.

Instead, the public has been confused by different numbers, metrics and ways of describing intensity and the impact of food. The reality is that 91% of our dairy and beef produce is exported. There is no sense in which Irish people feel connected to the agricultural landscape in the same way that existed in the past. It is quite detached from local food consumption. Consequently, having that national conversation is extremely important. That is where we get to sit down and talk about food production in terms of consumers, rural communities, the variety of livelihoods that depend on farming, land management and the future of farming so farm viability is guaranteed into the future, which was exactly the Deputy's point.

Other countries in Europe, to a certain extent, have started to outsource their dairy and beef production to countries like Ireland that, on the one hand, can perhaps claim to be doing it more efficiently, according to certain metrics, but at the same time, that means the countries in question can regulate their agricultural emissions more easily. The question for Ireland is, do we want to bear that pollution burden on behalf of countries that are consuming our products? The Irish public has not been given an opportunity to answer that question.

The Deputy's second question, which was also very interesting and relevant, was about how to support farmers with diversification and whether there is enough courage in the system to take the measures necessary. The Deputy is hitting exactly on a core issue, which is that the farm advisory services and research services provided by Teagasc have been skewed in favour of what we call the business as usual, the livestock model and increasing production efficiency, as Professor Matthews said. It is very influenced by the interests of the dairy and beef industries and, unfortunately, there has been much less attention and effort put into diversification in respect of research or working with the many farmers who are actually engaged in these practices. They feel very detached from Teagasc, do not feel supported and do not feel the research is supporting their efforts to manage their land according to agroecological or regenerative farming principles. The few agencies and research centres engaged in that kind of thing are tiny in comparison to where they should be.

We should be world leaders in regenerative agriculture but the courage is lacking. We need to instigate a review of Teagasc, just as we might review other public bodies from time to time to ensure their mandate, the composition of their boards and the level of expertise available to them are appropriate for the public services those bodies are required to provide. That includes bringing on board more ecological expertise into the agronomic and agricultural sciences, because if those disciplines are so detached from each other, it is no wonder we have seen the agricultural pressures on the environment we have experienced.