Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 20 April 2021
Select Committee on Justice and Equality
Counterfeiting Bill 2020: Committee Stage
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all members to the Chamber. It is good to see we are getting some use out of it, even if we are not here regularly. We have apologies from Deputy Costello, communicated to me earlier; otherwise, we have almost a full house.
The meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the Counterfeiting Bill 2020. I welcome to our meeting Deputy James Browne, Minister of State at the Department of Justice with special responsibility for law reform. We will proceed with consideration of the Bill. Before we take it section by section, I invite the Minister of State to make a brief opening statement to put the Bill in context.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputies for facilitating the Bill through Committee Stage today. I wish to take the opportunity to inform the House that I expect to bring forward some amendments on Report Stage. They are in respect of sections 1 and 6 and a new section to be inserted. The new section under consideration is in respect of the recovery of costs by the Central Bank of Ireland regarding the operation of the Coin National Analysis Centre. This amendment arises from the ECB opinion on the Bill and is being worked on by the Department of Finance and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, OPC. The other amendments being considered are in respect of section 1, to make the commencement arrangements for Part 4, and section 6, to further refine the elements of the offences relating to possession and manufacture of materials.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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We will now proceed to the Bill proper. If any member wishes to speak on any section, please indicate and you may do so.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Martin Kenny sends his apologies.
Regarding section 9, the defence seems to be the same as that put into the money laundering and terrorist financing Act, which I think we have discussed before. We are not opposed to this defence per sebut we feel we should not leave it up to the courts. We may wish to come back on this on Report Stage. Obviously, we need strong legal and policy safeguards against white-collar crime, given the interaction with other forms of crime. I am just flagging that we reserve the right to table an amendment on Report Stage.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. That is in order.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is this the section that the amendment is to be made to?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There are amendments in relation to sections 1 and 6, and a new section to be inserted.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Where will that new section be?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We do not have a place for it yet. It is only being flagged. The new section under consideration is in respect of the recovery of costs by the Central Bank of Ireland in relation to the operation of the coin national analysis centre. Effectively, the coin national analysis centre cannot come directly under the finances of the Central Bank and it has to be recovered. It is a technical point that was raised by the ECB.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As a matter of interest, what does it do?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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As far as I know, it weighs and measures coins to make sure that they are accurate, and what they are made out of. That is my understanding of it. There is probably a far better and more official definition than that to it.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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From whom is the money to be recouped?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Is that as in where is the accounting for the coin national analysis centre?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No. I thought the Minister of State was saying that the cost of the centre is to be recouped and that is the import of the section. Is that what Deputy James Browne is saying?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Who is to pay?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to get that clarified for the Deputy.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have that specific answer on it. It is that it cannot come directly out of the Central Bank.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I was wondering, in a counterfeiting Bill, who exactly is the charge to be levied upon? Anyway, the Minister of State can come back to me on it.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to the Deputy.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is referring to a new section that the Minister of State has indicated will be inserted but the comment came under section 12 in terms of the debate here.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is just a number - section 12.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I recall we passed a Bill a couple of years ago here on hallmarking which, it strikes me, has some similarities to the type of analysis that is being referenced in that agency or new agency. The Minister of State will come back to us with some clarification on that for the purpose of the role of that authority.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I reserve the right, similarly, to come back to this in relation to subsection (2).
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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This refers to the national analysis centre on which we had a discussion. Section 27 is designation of a national analysis centre for euro notes and coin analysis.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I can give Deputy Howlin the clarification on that matter now, if it helps. In effect, what the ECB has stated is that the coin-related tasks conferred on the Central Bank of Ireland, CBI, do not form part of the functions of the euro system and that coins in euro are issued through the CBI as agent for the Minister for Finance. In effect, instead of coming out of the Central Bank of Ireland, it will come directly from the Minister for Finance.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Central Fund.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Central funding, yes.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for the clarification.