Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 18 March 2021

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport

Appointment Process for Chair of Irish Aviation Authority: Engagement with Department of Transport

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the second part of our meeting is to discuss and examine the procedure and appointment process for the chair of the Irish Aviation Authority. On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the Department of Transport, Mr. Fintan Towey, assistant secretary, and Mr. Ronan Gallagher, principal officer.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Therefore, if the statement of a witness is potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction. Witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus should note there is some limitation on parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses physically present. Witnesses participating in this meeting from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I wish to remind members joining the meeting remotely that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House campus. In this regard, I call on all members who are participating remotely to confirm prior to making their contributions to the meeting that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I call on Mr. Towey to make an opening statement. He has approximately five minutes.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I understand committee members want to discuss the appointment of Ms Rose Hynes as chairperson of the board of the Irish Aviation Authority. I thank members for their time and I trust they have had a chance to consider the briefing material that has been provided.

I will begin by explaining that the appointment of Ms Rose Hynes is on an interim basis. A vacancy for the chair of the Irish Aviation Authority occurred at short notice last December. The Minister decided it was important that the vacancy be filled by a suitably qualified person as quickly as possible.

As members will be aware, the IAA is in the midst of a reform process that will result in significant institutional changes. The Air Navigation and Transport Bill is currently before the Houses for consideration. It was published in November last and passed Second Stage in the Dáil in February. It is hoped the Select Committee on Transport and Communications Networks will have time to consider the Bill soon.

The Bill provides that the commercial functions of the IAA will be separated out into a new company called the Irish air navigation service while the IAA will continue to have its primary role as the regulator for the aviation industry. As part of the reforms, the IAA will also absorb the regulatory functions of the Commission for Aviation Regulation to form a single national regulator with responsibility for all aspects of aviation regulation. To support that process a new chief aviation regulator was appointed in January following an open recruitment process.

Extensive internal work is under way within the IAA on all of the practical measures necessary to divide the existing organisation into two parts in anticipation of the Bill becoming law. This is no small task given that the IAA employs more than 700 staff and has net assets of almost €216 million. In 2019 the authority had a turnover of more than €197 million. Its functions include the regulation of civil aviation safety, oversight of aviation security and the planning and implementation of air navigation services.

Apart from restructuring, the effects of Covid-19 on the aviation sector generally, including on the IAA, clearly present extraordinary challenges. All the authority's operations have been deeply affected by Covid-19. Important strategic and business decisions are being progressed in the early part of this year to prepare the ground for the restructuring. In that context, the Minister for Transport was unwilling to risk leaving a vacancy while a more permanent chairperson was being sought for this crucial period. Keeping up the momentum for progress that had developed in 2020 with the assistance of the previous chairman was an important factor as well. On this basis, the Minister made the decision and, with Government approval, appointed an interim chair. Ms Hynes has extensive experience in aviation and in leading State agency restructuring programmes. This was a key reason for her appointment as the interim chair. It was noted by Government that the interim chair would appear before this committee.

The Minister intends to initiate the formal recruitment process under the State boards appointment guidelines for a permanent chair at the appropriate time in parallel to the consideration by the Houses of the Air Navigation and Transport Bill. Formal processes will be put in place to recruit a permanent chair for the newly restructured IAA and the proposed new Irish air navigation service. I trust that this information is of assistance to the committee and I am happy to take any questions that arise.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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My thanks to Mr. Towey. Please be careful with your delivery as it is coming in and out. Maybe it is the microphone or whatever, but please be careful. We can hear you but it is inclined to be mixed at times.

We will now go to members. Senator Timmy Dooley has five minutes.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the guests. I will dive into the questions. When did the Department become aware of the resignation of the outgoing chairman of the IAA?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I am happy to take the questions on a one-by-one basis - it is a question of whatever suites the committee best. It was close to mid-November. I think 9 November was the date on which the chairman notified his intention.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Was that the first the Department heard of it? Was there some inkling? Did this come completely out of the blue to the Department?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

There were some discussions with the chairman in early November. It was evident in early November that the chairman was considering his position and he confirmed it on 9 November.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Was that a direct conversation? Was it initiated by the chairman? Was it something that came from the Department or the Minister?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

There were discussions between the Department and the chairman in the context of a range of ongoing issues in respect of the IAA and the reforms to which I have referred. It was in the context of those discussions that the issue of the chairman indicating that he would resign arose.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Was it an indication that he was not happy with procedures or not happy with the impending legislation?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

The chairman resigned for personal reasons. I am not in a position to set out what they were. This arose in discussions that the Department had with him around various issues and challenges for the IAA. He indicated in that context that he was not in a position to continue.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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What meeting or meetings took place internally to discuss a process for finding a replacement?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Following the indication that the chairman intended to resign, we began internal arrangements towards initiating a public process - a call for applications - and we had some discussions with the Minister in that regard. That way forward was favoured by around the end of November. In parallel with this, there was continuing engagement with the chairman in respect of several issues that were being resolved or dealt with by the board to resolve preparatory measures for the restructuring of the organisation. It became evident in the course of those discussions that the board would continue to have an intensive role in the preparation for restructuring. It, therefore, became evident that it would be problematic and risky to have a vacancy for the chair on the board while that was ongoing.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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There was a discussion about finding a replacement and it became evident that the Department needed to move. Is that correct? At what point was the decision taken to select an interim chair?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

It was the middle of December. I think it was 16 December.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The Department had various different chats and talks and decided on it. Whose idea was it to go for an interim chair?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I am not actually sure.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Were there any minutes taken of those meetings?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

No, these were internal discussions on the challenges being addressed by the IAA and the need to have an appropriate chair in place as quickly as possible. It was in the context of those discussions that the acknowledgment arose that there would be a difficulty in not having a chair. I am reluctant to claim credit for the proposal that we should appoint an interim chair though I do not deny the possibility. It may well have been the Secretary General or Mr. Ronan Gallagher.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The decision was taken at some point to select an interim chair. Which existing members of the board were considered or approached to fill that role?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

We did not consider appointing an existing member of the board. Our view was that, given the challenges the board was facing, we needed to find a suitable candidate who had a deep understanding of the public sector in Ireland, State bodies and how they operate and of implementing change in State bodies.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The Department did not consider anybody who was on the board of the IAA, with their significant experience, to be worthy of consideration.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Clearly, all the members of the board had expertise as board members and in relation to the business of the IAA but the focus of the expertise we were looking for was driving and delivering change.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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What process was followed to select the interim chair? The Department knew what it needed so how did it go looking? Where did it start?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

It was a process of discussion. There were discussions between myself and the Secretary General and between the Secretary General and the Minister on the question of identifying a suitable person with a strong track record and expertise.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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How many names did they come up with?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

We did not produce a list of names as such but some names were considered.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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How many?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

In total, about three.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Where did the name of the proposed interim chair come from?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

It arose in discussions between the Minister and the Secretary General. I am not sure who identified Ms Hynes as a suitable candidate but I know both of them had worked with her before.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Did anyone within the Department, including the Minister, receive any expressions of interest from any party once it was clear there was a vacancy? Was there any communication in writing, orally, by phone or by text, with any person who wanted to be considered, as far as Mr. Towey knows? Obviously he cannot speak for the Minister but if it got to Department level at some point there would be a record of it.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I am not aware that any party expressed an interest in the position.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That is fine for the moment.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Rourke has four or five minutes. I am conscious of the other members. We have to be out of here by 1.30 p.m.

Photo of Darren O'RourkeDarren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Towey for the update. I raise the issue of the type of aviation industry the IAA will be regulating in the future. In Mr. Towey's position, does he have concerns about the future of the aviation sector? To what degree is he concerned about the decisions of Aer Lingus and Ryanair, which seem to be strategic ones? In the last 24 to 48 hours I have been contacted by scores of staff regarding moves towards the North, moves to Manchester and redundancies of ground staff. Does Mr. Towey share those workers' concerns about the future of the Irish aviation sector, which the IAA will be regulating? Has the Department met with the airlines or union representatives from the Irish Air Line Pilots' Association, IALPA, Fórsa, SIPTU, Connect Trade Union or other unions? What proposals are there at a departmental level to recover the aviation sector? For example, will a task force be re-established?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

The state of the aviation industry is deeply concerning. It is a well-known fact that it is an industry that is susceptible to economic cycles and downturns. This particular shock to the aviation industry goes far beyond any setback that has previously been experienced and all of the industry is experiencing enormous difficulty, with the sole exception of a small part that is primarily focused on freight. Outside of that, airlines, airports, lessors and maintenance firms are all experiencing enormous difficulty and in turn that means there are huge impacts for the workers across all those firms and industries. Many of those firms have already had to take significant cost-cutting measures, including staff redundancies, which have brought a huge amount of hardship and, of course, many workers have experienced extensive pay cuts as well. The state of the industry is deeply concerning.

The key challenge or question for the industry is when will it be possible to get back to business. As everybody in this virtual room will be aware, that is deeply intertwined with considerations of public health and continuing measures that are necessary to counter the spread of the virus, and that obviously has to take priority. While the industry has been going through this turmoil there have been significant support measures in place, mainly through the general employment support frameworks that have been implemented by the Government, and they have been availed of across the industry. There are then some sector-specific supports as well.

Throughout this crisis we have had very close engagement with the industry. We have maintained intensive engagement at official level because clearly we need to have that coalface knowledge of the impact on services, supply chains and so on, which are critical to our economy. That is something we have monitored very carefully. There has been close ministerial engagement both bilaterally with a number of the major players and in multilateral settings. For example, the Minister and the Minister of State-----

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of time.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

-----met with the task force last year. They also met a few weeks ago with the National Civil Aviation Development Forum and just last week the Minister of State chaired the inaugural meeting of the Labour Employer Economic Forum, which is a framework that brings together representatives of IBEC and ICTU to discuss-----

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr. Towey to conclude.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I am sorry.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy O'Rourke wish to come back in briefly?

Photo of Darren O'RourkeDarren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to make the point that we had an aviation recovery task force which reported last year. However, the circumstances have changed completely since it reported. There is a need for the Minister and the Department to get their heads around the scale of the impact on this essential industry and also to look at the moves being made. We need to react to them quickly or there will be no aviation sector to recover. I fully support the public health measures that have been implemented, and I actually called for mandatory hotel quarantine to go further, but at the same time we need the types of supports that will sustain the sector through this period. It is not just a matter of recovery. There might be nothing to recover if the Government and the Department do not take action.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We, as a committee, will do a follow-up body of work around aviation as well. I call Deputy Carey.

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Towey explained in his opening statement the significant institutional change that is proposed for the IAA.

Could he take us through those significant changes?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

The Irish Aviation Authority was established in 1994, pursuant to the Irish Aviation Authority Act 1993. That took the functions of air navigation service provision and regulation of the aviation industry out of the then Department of Transport, Energy and Communications and into an independent commercial body. That was a significant change and that was in keeping with the trends at the time towards the establishment of dedicated agencies for air navigation services and aviation safety regulation. In the period since the IAA was established, European policy has begun to put an enormous focus on the importance of the independence of regulatory bodies. This served to highlight that the Irish Aviation Authority, as a body with dual roles that are somewhat related, has internal conflicts. Those conflicts are out of kilter with best practice in the implementation of independent regulation. The background to this is to ensure that we are fully compliant with European legal requirements for independence, that we establish the regulatory function on a stand-alone basis and that we establish the commercial service provision function on a separate basis. We will also integrate with the safety regulation function undertaken by the IAA with the economic regulation function that is undertaken by the Commission for Aviation Regulation, which was established as an independent body in 2001. It is to bring us in line with the best international practice in the regulation of aviation.

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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On the appointment of an interim chair, can Mr. Towey confirm the status? Has Ms Hynes taken up her position or is there another step in this process?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Ms Hynes has taken up her position. She has been appointed as the chairperson. In her letter of appointment, the Minister made clear that it should be considered a chairperson-designate position, pending her appearance before this committee. While the appointment has been made and while Ms Hynes has full powers as chairperson, the position is not secure until the required appearance before this committee has taken place.

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the term "interim". What period would that cover?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

The term "interim" relates to the period between now and the establishment of these two new bodies following the enactment of the Air Navigation and Transport Bill 2020. From now until those new bodies are established and at the appropriate point as the Bill is being processed through the Houses, we will initiate a process through the Public Appointments Service to recruit a chairperson for both of those new bodies.

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I would also like to put a number of points to Mr. Towey. I am a bit perplexed, confused and perhaps even frustrated as a member of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications Networks. Maybe I have totally misunderstood this process but I believed that this had to come before the committee for ratification and yet Mr. Towey has told us that Ms Rose Hynes is the chairperson-designate. Presumably she is leading all the meetings, taking the executive decisions a chairperson would take and being remunerated. Could Mr. Towey confirm if that is the case on all three counts?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Yes. That is the case.

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What is our function then? I have been a Deputy for the past year. This is the third occasion on which I have seen someone appointed to a State board that has a functionality in the committee's remit. If this comes back in two three weeks' time and for some unknown reason we say we are not happy, what happens then? Could Mr. Towey explain that to me? Maybe I have missed something major over the last 12 months but this is a little out of sync with what I have seen happen with other appointments.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

That is a bigger question than applies specifically to this appointment but I will outline for the Deputy my understanding of it. It is a requirement that nominees for positions as chairpersons appear before the relevant Oireachtas committees. That is reflected in the code practice of the governance of State bodies. As I understand it, it is the practice for the committee to confirm that the appearance has taken place. As a matter of practice, the committee does not express confirmation of support or otherwise in the making of the appointment.

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe the Chair or the clerk to the committee will write to the Minister to seek a tiny bit more clarification on this. It might have been October when former Deputy Liz O'Donnell was appointed as chairperson of the Road Safety Authority and she came before this committee. I remember that each member, across parties, said in their contributions that they supported her candidacy. We had utterances of support and ratification so I would be curious to see if we could get clarification on that. How long is this interim appointment for? With this new Bill that is working its way through the Oireachtas to the point of enactment, are there any memoranda of understanding that this interim chair would take on the combined bodies or anything like that? Are there any memoranda there that Mr. Towey could clarify for us?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

There are no memoranda of understanding. The appointment is on an interim basis-----

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is stand-alone.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Yes. That is on the understanding that there will be processes for the recruitment of chairpersons for two new bodies and they will be commenced at the appropriate time.

Photo of Cathal CroweCathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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This might be for another day and Mr. Towey may not have all the answers to this today but I ask if he and his colleagues in the Department of Transport would have briefed both the Minister and Ms Hynes and the Irish Aviation Authority on the ongoing superannuation scheme dispute regarding Irish Aviation Authority employees. Is there a sphere of briefing going on there that is aimed towards resolution?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

There is provision in statute on the resolution of issues relating to the superannuation scheme. My understanding is that there is a dispute that has been referred to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. It is for adjudication by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and that is where the matter stands.

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Towey has spoken about the changes in the Irish Aviation Authority becoming the single regulatory body and the enactment of the legislation. He said there are a fair amount of internal conversations and communications going on. How does Mr. Towey foresee this happening on the ground? Are there any difficulties that need to be overcome?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

There are a range of challenges that have to be overcome in the sense that the IAA is a single body with 700 employees and assets of more than €200 million. The organisation has to be divided into two parts so that they can become independent bodies and so that the safety regulation part will also prepare for the absorption of the Commission for Aviation Regulation.

Several issues need to be addressed. A new head of the new regulatory body has been recruited through an open process and is working with the Irish Aviation Authority at present. There is a series of issues regarding how to reorganise buildings, the internal systems and the corporate services supports that are provided, such as HR, finance, etc., and how to divide the assets of the company and so on. All that work is being undertaken now and is being progressed by both the new chief regulator designate and the chief executive officer of the Irish Aviation Authority who will head up the new air navigation service body.

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Towey aware of any issues with small and regional airports regarding the lack of air traffic controllers impacting on training?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I know that issues have arisen in the past and arise from time to time in the sense that it is sometimes difficult for small regional airports to recruit air traffic controllers because of the opportunities that exist in the bigger airports and in the bigger air traffic control centres. I know in those circumstances the Irish Aviation Authority has previously provided assistance to the smaller regional airports where necessary. However, I am not aware of any specific problems right now.

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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One has been brought to our attention. I will ensure correspondence is sent to Mr. Towey to see if it can be resolved.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions for Mr. Towey. Today we are discussing the process of appointment. Did Mr. McGrail, the previous chairman of the IAA, resign or was he asked to resign? I ask Mr. Towey to give me a "Yes" or "No" answer. Did he resign of his own accord or was he encouraged to resign?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

He resigned of his own accord.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I did not see it in the public domain, and it was not in the press statement on the appointment of the interim chairman. If my memory serves me right, we got correspondence indicating that the appointment was for one year. Is Mr. Towey saying there is no deadline on the appointment? I ask Mr. Towey to give me a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I will have to check the papers. I think the expectation is that it will be about one year. I am not sure whether it is written down as one year, but clearly it is linked to the progress of the Air Navigation and Transport Bill.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Typically, how long does the public appointments process take to appoint a new chair?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I would say it is three to five months.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. McGrail resigned in early November. It has now been virtually five months since then. Why did the Department not consider a process of public appointments to appoint a new chairman designate for the IAA?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

We did, and it was discussed with the Minister. While the former chairman indicated his intention to resign on 9 November, it was actually 16 December before his resignation took effect. Towards the end of November we looked at the alternative of a process through the Public Appointments Service, but given the normal timeframes and the fact that in this case it would span Christmas, there was a view that it was necessary to move more quickly and to fill the vacancy. Following approval by Government on 12 January, Ms Hynes was appointed and has had the responsibilities of chair of the board since then.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many board meetings have taken place since Ms Hynes's appointment as chair of the board of the IAA?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I do not know the answer to that. I know there have been a number of board meetings. I think there may have been board committee meetings also, but I cannot say the number.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have two questions. Who ultimately made the decision to appoint an interim chair rather than go through the Public Appointments Service?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

The Minister.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Why would the Department not now start the public appointments process to appoint a formal chair designate of the IAA board in parallel with having an interim chair, based on the reasons Mr. Towey has put forward?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

In that scenario it would be a process to appoint a person to become chairman of the combined entity that is the Irish Aviation Authority right now. I suppose the question then would be whether that person would continue as chair of one of the new entities or whether we would have a process for the two new entities. In the hope that the period to enactment of the Air Navigation and Transport Bill would not be that long, I think it was felt that appointing an interim chair to hold the position until the Bill was enacted was sufficient. We do not have visibility on the timeframe for the enactment of the Bill. If it can reach Committee Stage quickly, we might have better visibility on the process.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Towey will appreciate we are not questioning at all the qualifications of the interim chair; it is the process that we are questioning.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am in Leinster House.

Mr. Towey has not given us a definitive answer as to how long the appointment will be for, which is disappointing. My remarks do not in any way cast aspersion on the appointee. Given the background of the chairperson designate and her involvement with Shannon Airport, does Mr. Towey believe she has a conflict of interest given that this is a national authority, serving all airports?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

No, I do not believe there is a conflict. She has concluded her business with Shannon Airport. It is well known in the public domain what her role was. This is a new role.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is a new role that affects all airports. Following the separation of Shannon Airport from the DAA, it was projected that 3.2 million passengers would travel through Shannon when in fact it was only 1.7 million passengers. That does not augur well, does it?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I think that is a separate question. The role of the Irish Aviation Authority in respect of Shannon is to ensure that it reaches all the necessary safety and security standards. That is the focus of the IAA. The board has broad oversight responsibilities for regulation across all airports and airlines. Therefore, I do not see issues there.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am a former chairperson of an Oireachtas committee. Would Mr. Towey accept that this process today and the appearance of any chairperson designate is a clear act of folly because we, as an Oireachtas committee, cannot say we have no confidence and cannot say we should not appoint and therefore there should be a review of the whole process whereby the person or persons should come before the committee to be vetted properly, not in a personal way but based on their policy, their approach and their qualifications?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

That is how I also understand it.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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At the moment, we have no function other than to tick a box and that should change. The power rests with the Civil Service and the Minister and the members of the Oireachtas committee may as well be out in the field directing traffic in this case.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Clearly, it is within the discretion of the committee to express what-----

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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What is Mr. Towey's view on it? Would he like to see that position changed?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

It is a bigger question than my remit, but essentially it is a procedural question about what the role of the committee should be and whether appointments should be made on the basis of a formal ratification.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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That is what I am asking about. What is Mr. Towey's view on it?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I am not in a position to express a view on that today.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Why is that the case? Mr. Towey is the senior civil servant before the committee today.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

It is not something I have looked at or weighed up all of the arguments in terms of finding the balance between the role of Parliament versus the role of the Executive. It is a bigger question than the appointment of this particular chairperson and it is a much bigger question than my opinion on it.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I accept that. However, the IAA remit includes civil aviation safety regulation, aviation security regulation and inspection and air traffic management, which is a fairly wide remit and a very onerous set of functions. Given that, surely we as parliamentarians, independent of Government, should have a more substantial role in vetting people to be board members or chairpersons. Let me add that I am not talking about any particular individual, but a person designate.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I note the Senator's position and the view he is expressing. I will not express an opinion on it. It is a fundamental question in relation to both Parliament and the Executive.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Towey. I appreciate his candour.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Senator Dooley can come back in very briefly.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Towey for answering the questions as frankly as he could. However, the average punter looking in will ask why two or three people sat in a room, tossed around a few names, did an eeny, meeny, miny, moe and picked an individual. That does not look good in terms of transparency at the level we are dealing with it. Quite frankly, it looks appalling because there is a broader question. There will be two boards at the end of this interim chairmanship. Can Mr. Towey tell us that the interim chair will not be in a position to compete for either of those two boards? I will hear his answer before my next question.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

I suppose it will be open to Ms Hynes to compete for either or both, if she so chooses.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Towey for his frankness. Does that not cast a level of favouritism on the interim chair because they will be given access to intimate knowledge that nobody else will have access to in a competition for the new positions? Did Mr. Towey not consider that the interim chair be appointed on the basis that they would not go forward for that role? A route has been opened up here which does not look good. This does not in any way question the capacity or abilities of the interim chair. We can have all those discussions if or when the individual comes before the committee. However, it is a major lapse in good governance by a Department around something so serious, considering the work Mr. Towey talked about which needs to be done. Quite frankly, the legislation has not gone through yet.

Furthermore, I cannot for the life of me understand why there was no approach to somebody on the existing board who would have known about the discussions and debates and had access to all the information. I have to put to Mr. Towey that it is absolutely flabbergasting.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

The process by which Ms Hynes was selected is one foreseen in the guidelines on appointments published by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. It is recognised as a process. The process to appoint the-----

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It is recognised in exceptional circumstances.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Yes. These are exceptional circumstances.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That is open to-----

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We need to conclude.

Mr. Fintan Towey:

The process to be applied by the Public Appointments Service is dependent on the recruitment process carried out in accordance with the Public Appointments Service procedures for recruitment and best practice.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Towey but we need to conclude.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Since we could go on about this for some time, would it be possible for Mr. Towey to respond to additional questions from the committee sent through the secretariat?

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Towey agree to that?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Yes, of course.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will follow up on any additional questions members have which the secretariat will forward to Mr. Towey. Is Mr. Towey agreeable to that?

Mr. Fintan Towey:

Yes, absolutely.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate we are caught on time due to Covid. I thank Mr. Towey and Mr. Ronan Gallagher from the Department of Transport for attending today and engaging with the committee. The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private virtual one at 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 March.