Dr. Larry O'Connell:

We have not examined New Zealand in the context of the just transition and the work on agriculture. We have looked it more widely in terms of the work it is doing on using well-being and indicators.

I wish to make a point, and it connects back to Deputy Bruton's question. We are very sensitive about framing the challenge as being, on the one hand, a slow process of engagement with people and, on the other, sweeping urgent changes. If we refer back to agriculture, what one must grapple with is the complexity. Nobody disputes the overall scale and urgency of the challenge. Carbon budgets move us on and help to quantify the challenge, but we are still left with the complexity of exactly how we do it. That is where one needs to engage with the people on the urgency. I do not believe that engagement with people should be characterised as slow. It must be enthused with ambition. However, it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, at some point the top-down idea of even a carbon budget does not deliver because it does not engage with the actual complexities of the problem.

It was interesting when Ms Finegan spoke about the Taoiseach's Department's point of view.

The crux of the issue is often the fact that we must look at implementation, really grapple with these complexities and not assume they can be glossed over. This is where we really must make progress. That kind of framing needs to be front and centre. It is about the complexities and the ambition to deal with them rather than an either-or scenario. This is really important, particularly in agriculture.