Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before addressing correspondence, I will address our work programme. A number of members have sent suggestions to the clerk and I propose we address these this day next week. Later today, the Comptroller and Auditor General will publish the 2019 appropriation accounts, which are the accounts of Government Departments and offices. The Comptroller and Auditor General will publish his 2019 report on the accounts of the public services which identifies issues which, in his opinion, merit consideration by the Committee of Public Accounts in the interests of transparency and accountability. A briefing note will be circulated to all members and I ask members to identify their priorities in relation to the publications. Members can read those and if they identify issues, they can bring them to the clerk's attention no later than next Monday. I ask members to pay particular attention to their priorities in relation to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Finance, as these will be the first Departments to appear before the committee and that is what is in our work programme. The secretariat will compile a list of the bodies and issues that have been identified by members for consideration. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I will move on to correspondence. At our meeting last week, we agreed we would deal with correspondence categorised as C which was received since the last meeting of the previous committee, held on 12 December 2019. I have reviewed the correspondence and a list of the correspondence with proposed actions was circulated to members last Friday. Members were requested to highlight for further discussion any items they wished and to determine a course of action on them. The committee has agreed that the decision of the committee in relation to all items of correspondence will be published as part of the committee minutes. Correspondence from private individuals or personal details must not be published, only decisions of the committee in relation to the subject matter of the correspondence.

I will move on to correspondence from and related to private individuals. The first is No. 2666C from an individual dated 13 December 2019, a complaint regarding rail services provided by Iarnród Éireann. The matter is not within the remit of this committee and I note the correspondence is also copied to a number of members, including the chairman of the transport committee. I propose we note that item. Deputy Catherine Murphy wished to raise this issue.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I felt there would be merit in seeking an update from the National Transport Authority, NTA.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are members happy that we receive an update? Agreed.

The next item of correspondence is No. 2668C and 2669 dated 16 December 2019 from an individual relating to the student transport scheme. The correspondence provides information obtained under freedom of information. The previous committee considered correspondence from the Department of Education and Skills responding to its queries regarding the uncommitted reserve element of the transport management charge of the cost of school transport and related financial reporting. The Department has stated that there is no profit and the uncommitted reserve in the transport management charge element of the cost could only be used for the school transport scheme. My understanding is that the last committee obtained useful information by taking the matter as far as it could. I propose to forward the correspondence from the Department to the correspondent and advise him that the committee's consideration of the matter is closed. Deputy Carthy, who is not present, and Deputy Catherine Murphy have flagged that they wish to comment on this.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The net point was that the accusation was that Bus Éireann made a profit on school transport and it was not reflected in their accounts. The particular individual sent us a sizeable amount of information over a period of time. Perhaps we could take that course of action and wait to see if the person corresponds with us again, with a view to looking at it if further points are raised.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Murphy. The next piece of correspondence is No. 2676 from Deputy Catherine Connolly, dated 18 December 2019 regarding the Charities Regulator and the Galway University Foundation. Deputy Carthy is not present so I propose we note the item for discussion.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We could hold it over for him in case he asked specifically. That was what we would have done in the past.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will hold it over for next week.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If a member had to pop out or be at another committee then we would keep it for them.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, we will keep it in play. The next item of correspondence is No. 2678 from Deputy Catherine Murphy, dated 20 December 2019 in relation to including the Office of Government Procurement on the work programme. Does Deputy Murphy wish to speak on this item?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We will be dealing with the work programme next week so it is an item we could consider at that point.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. The next item of correspondence is No. 2698C from an individual, dated 9 January, providing information that was also sent to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach in relation to the management of public property assets by the OPW. Deputy Hourigan has proposed the committee request that the OPW provide further information on the Hammond Lane site of the family courts. Is this proposal agreed, Deputy Hourigan?

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I saw in the note that it had been sent to other committees but I do think it is an issue for this committee. Some of us have been watching the saga of the Hammond Lane site for a number of decades at this stage so it is worth a bit of scrutiny.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Murphy has indicated.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I think last week Deputy MacSharry went through the issue with Miesian Plaza and I cannot see any scenario where the OPW will not be on our work programme. There are a variety of issues that need to be considered so maybe it is not just that it is on the work programme but we might sketch out what aspects we want to deal with and whether we can we deal with it next week.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy MacSharry.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with that. Given the new format with the two hour meetings, in situations where we might be bringing in the OPW, the Irish Prison Service, An Garda and others, it is going to take a number of meetings. Two hours is not going to cover it and I would rather we did not have only a cursory glance over what will be very important issues, because of limitations on time. That will also work very well with our legal advice about the accuracy of the invitation, what is going to be discussed and so on. We need to split them up and the organisations will have to be told we are going to need them perhaps four times. When we get up and running properly, perhaps we will be in a position to sit more often if there are rooms available. On Hammond Lane, apart from the need to get the family courts up and running, which is more a matter for the justice committee, a peculiar thing happened when we had them here before. The project did not go ahead and it would have fallen due for a vacant site tax but instead of paying that they leased it as a builder's yard. I asked if there was a change of use in planning permission for that and we did not get any answers. There is no doubt that there are people hoarding land nationally but in some instances we will probably have developers who are very hard-pressed to try to get a project off the ground and having to pay their vacant site tax while agencies of the State are doing the three-card trick to duck out of their financial obligations. That is an aspect of it as well.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

There seems to be consensus that we include it in our work programme as one of the items we want to address with the OPW when it appears before the committee.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I note that the individual who is corresponding has a lot of experience as a former employee. A lot of documentation was received by the previous committee and this committee. We could usefully go through that and maybe pick out up to half a dozen key items that we want to pursue with him.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Agreed. No. 2700C is from an individual in regard to the wards of court. I understand that the previous committee had decided that it had taken its consideration of the matter as far as it could.

I note Deputy Catherine Murphy wishes to address this issue. I would suggest that we note the item and forward related correspondence received from the Department of Justice and Equality, 32R002645 and the Courts Service, 32R002691, regarding the Assisted Decision Making (Capacity) Act 2015 to the individual. I would also suggest that the correspondent makes any future inquiries to the justice committee which has reported on this matter and advise that the committee's consideration of the matter is closed.

Would Deputy Murphy like to comment?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will be submitting parliamentary questions on the matter. I agree it should go to the justice committee in the first instance.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No.2701C is from Deputy Catherine Murphy, dated 8 January, in regard to financial procedures at the Garda College, Templemore. At our meeting last week we had an update from the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission on the investigation regarding EU funds for training purposes for the Garda College, Templemore. We agreed to request an update from it in regard to its investigation.

I had proposed that we write to the relevant bodies, namely, An Garda Síochána, the Policing Authority, and the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF, regarding the Cabra account for an update. Would Deputy Murphy like to comment?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am happy with that Chairman.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. 049C is from Denis Ryan, dated 20 February 2020, on the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, and evidence of actions taken leading to a possible loss of millions of euro to the Irish taxpayer. I propose to request the correspondent's consent to forward the correspondence to SBCI for a response. Deputy Carthy is not here.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I think we will wait until we get a response from the SBCI. Writing to it in the first instance is a reasonable action.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. 056C is from Tony Goodwin, General Secretary, Irish Road Haulage Association, dated 09 January 2020, in regard to the Road Safety Authority. By way of background, I wish to advise members that the previous committee considered correspondence from the Irish Road Haulage Association on 13 June 2019 and it was decided to request a response from the Road Safety Authority. The response from the Road Safety Authority was considered by the committee in September 2019 and forwarded to the Irish Road Haulage Association and it was suggested that it liaise directly with the RSA on the matter.

A further item of correspondence received in November 2019 was noted. It related to the performance of the RSA in respect of functions that impact on the licensed road haulage sector. The correspondence for consideration today is a request for the committee to raise the matter again with the RSA. I had proposed that we advise the correspondent that the previous committee requested the Road Safety Authority to respond to the matters raised. At the meeting on 19 September 2019, it was agreed to forward a copy of the correspondence received from the RSA to the IRHA and it was suggested that the correspondent liaise directly with the RSA in regard to these matters.

Deputy Verona Murphy has indicated she wishes to discuss this item and I invite her to do so now.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wish to disclose to committee members who may not be aware of it that I was president of the Irish Road Haulage Association when this correspondence was issued. If the committee wishes, I can excuse myself from any decision that it might make on how the correspondence is dealt with.

Is there a precedent for that?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the committee happy enough for Deputy Verona Murphy to be present when the matter is being discussed given the fact that she was the president of the Irish Road Haulage Association, IRHA?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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At the time.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We are in public session.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy MacSharry is happy enough. Do other members want to speak on it before I allow Deputy Verona Murphy to speak again?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would like to hear the opinion of the Comptroller and Auditor General on it, if it is appropriate. The accounts that will be discussed are those for 2019, from the perspective of the correspondence.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Hourigan and I ask her to pull down the mask as it is interfering with the microphone.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I want to be clear that if we are speaking about something on which Deputy Verona Murphy would have to give evidence or come before the committee, it might be in public session but it is different if someone is contributing to the conversation. I want to be clear about how it would all work. It is one thing to know what is happening in a room and be watching it because it is in public but it is another to contribute to proceedings. In what context would that happen?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand with regard to conflict of interest but it was a non-executive position heading up an organisation and it is in the public interest. All of us have been in contact with the Irish Road Haulage Association in various capacities over the years to raise issues. I know exactly what Deputy Hourigan is saying, and it is appropriate that it is said, but there are 12 others of us of whom, were Deputy Verona Murphy going off the reservation, it could be said we had a vested interest. She has declared an interest. Obviously she is involved in the transport sector. She was a non-executive president of the organisation. We have all had previous outings, whether it was architecture in Deputy Hourigan's case or beef exports for me. Of course, we state the interest but it is not a conflict.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In response to Deputy Hourigan, I would not be giving evidence on it as the complaint is that of the association. I was the president at the time and it is the new president who would come before the committee, were there to be an issue.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to come in briefly on this and give a view on it. Unfortunately he cannot hear us as we have lost the connection.

The previous committee considered correspondence from the Irish Road Haulage Association and it was decided to request a response from the Road Safety Authority. In September 2019, it was agreed to forward a copy of the correspondence received from the RSA to the Irish Road Haulage Association and it was suggested that it liaise directly with the RSA on the matter.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Part of the issue was a lack of communication or no communication between the RSA and the IRHA at the time. These issues had been addressed readily to the RSA, in which case there was no response. This is part of the reason it was referred to the committee in the first place. Perhaps the solution is that if the Department of Transport is coming before the committee, the RSA also would be requested to attend.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Having read the correspondence dated 9 January, I am of the opinion that some of the issues are more for the Department of Transport than the committee. Mr. Tony Goodwin is stating that the nature of the reply was unsatisfactory to the Irish Road Haulage Association and it appears as though there are various interpretations of the RSA's position on the matters raised.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Department of Transport issued correspondence stating the RSA was a stand-alone entity and that it did not have a remit over it regarding the matter about which we, that is, the Irish Road Haulage Association, were inquiring at the time. That can be clarified by the Department of Transport.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Deputy happy to leave it until the Department of Transport comes before the committee?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I return to the point Deputy Hourigan made regarding Deputy Verona Murphy. If I am incorrect in saying this, please let me know. The road hauliers made a complaint about the RSA. The road hauliers were not being investigated. It could be compared to any of the grievances I might have dealt with in my clinic last week. I may have written to the Committee of Public Accounts in the past about it but I then also have the right as a member to raise them here. If Deputy Verona Murphy was subject to correspondence relating to an organisation that she was heading up and which was being questioned, that would be very different. It is important to state that. Deputy Murphy is carrying on the work she carried out beforehand, which she is quite right to do because all of us come to public life with grievances about things we would like to change.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We have mandates.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Hourigan is correct in saying that if Deputy Verona Murphy was the subject of correspondence and that was related to a public body, I would be uncomfortable with Deputy Murphy contributing in that case.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Verona Murphy is out of the loop of her previous incarnation. Are we happy enough with that?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It comes down to the invitation thing again. There are other issues with the RSA, independent of Deputy Verona Murphy's. I mentioned one last week. When we get to the work programme, we will call them in. Let the Department's witnesses bring representatives from the RSA with them if they want. We are entitled to call the RSA in its own right, as far as I am aware. The Department will do that. They will say, "Well now, as the Deputy knows under the 2004 Act that is a matter for so and so and not me." We want to avoid that.

I know this is coming up under correspondence. In the past we wanted to talk to the chief procurement officer of the State. Imagine the Committee of Public Accounts not being able to talk to the chief procurement officer of the State. The Secretary General came in and decided he was the Accounting officer and that he was the only one answering the questions. It does not embrace the spirit of why the committee exists. I think they should be brought in.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Deputy Verona Murphy happy enough with that?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes, and whatever the committee deems necessary.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. 061C is from an individual dated 2 April 2020 enclosing correspondence on a previous Committee of Public Accounts sub-committee inquiry into DIRT. We will note this item. Deputy Carthy wanted to discuss this item but unfortunately he is unavoidably absent this morning.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Can we hold it over for him?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will hold it over to next week.

No. 074C is from an individual dated 15 July 2020 regarding the transcript of the Committee of Public Accounts meeting on 18 May 2017 with Bord na gCon. It is proposed to request Bord na gCon to respond to the matters raised by the correspondent. Is that agreed?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What was the issue?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The issue related to evidence given here when representatives from Bord na gCon were present.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did the issue relate to something they had said in evidence?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The person alleges that what was stated on the record to this committee was incorrect, not that it was recorded incorrectly in the Official Report. What was stated by a member of the Irish Greyhound Board in this committee put that person in a bad light. There were false allegations and they were looking to have that corrected. The secretariat has looked at this and the committee is not in a position to change the record of a meeting. It must be recorded as per the transcript. That cannot be changed. The only way we can see it being done is to propose that Bord na gCon would respond to the matters raised in No. 074C. Members will see it there in their correspondence. The person wrote "I believe that under Data protection law and common decency my name should be removed from the records and the records should be amended."

However, the Official Report is the record. It is transcribed exactly from what is recorded here. It is for Bord na gCon to respond directly to that. There is no other option for the committee to take. It cannot move on what is there in black and white. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes the private correspondence. We have dealt with and concluded a significant backlog of correspondence in the past two weeks. We will resume dealing with current correspondence at our meeting next week. I thank members for their co-operation and forbearance with this matter.

Our next meeting will be tomorrow, when we will meet representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE in respect of Special Report 110 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the nursing homes support scheme, often referred to as the fair deal scheme.

Does any member wish to raise any matters under any other business? I call Deputy MacSharry.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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While I know that we will deal with it next week, I refer to an issue that features on the front page of the Irish Examinertoday. It would be remiss of the committee not to acknowledge the gravity of the situation with regard to utterances made in the Committee of Public Accounts being ruled by a Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, adjudicator to have been the reason for an agency nurse, who was allegedly sexually assaulted in the course of her work, being penalised by having her role cancelled as a direct result of her case being rightly brought into the public domain through this committee. There are grave consequences arising in this regard. The implications of the ruling are that one should keep things in-house and play by the rules or there will be punishment. What is remarkable is that this happened on the very evening that the case was mentioned in the committee. Obviously, there is a victim in this situation, who rightly should be compensated, but beyond that, it should be noted that this is not the first issue that has arisen. Despite the hardworking people we have at all levels in the Prison Service, including prison officers and contractors who are dedicated to their jobs, there is a serious dark side that needs to be rooted out. This committee has a clear role to play in this work and we should acknowledge the articles that are in the public domain today, prioritising them to be dealt with next week.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the matters raised, I have not had an opportunity to read up on the issue as I was preparing for this morning's meeting. In fairness to the members of this committee, they should have time to consider the issue, which can be addressed at a future meeting. However, perhaps members will review the issue and apprise themselves of the facts of the case.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I have circulated the judgment handed down in the case. I request that the committee considers the two articles that have appeared in the media today and they should perhaps also be circulated to members.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We can discuss the issue once members are fully apprised of the facts. Is there any other business? No.