Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are meeting with Caranua about its financial statements for 2017. We are joined by Ms Rachel Downes, chief executive officer of Caranua. She is very welcome to this first meeting in her role as chief executive officer. We are also joined by Mr. David O'Callaghan, chairperson, Ms Sinéad Dwyer, director of services, and Mr. Michael Fitzpatrick, director of finance and corporate governance. From the Department of Education and Skills, we are joined by Ms Aoife Conduit, Ms Catherine Hynes, Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa and Ms Ann Gorman. I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery that all mobile phones should be switched off or put to airplane mode. Merely putting them onto silent will still interfere with the recording system.

I advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 186 that they shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy. While we expect witnesses to answer questions put by the committee members clearly and with candour, witnesses can and should expect to be treated fairly and with respect and consideration at all times, in accordance with the witness protocol.

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Board, better known as Caranua, was established in March 2013 under the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Act 2012. Caranua is responsible for overseeing the use of substantial funds pledged by a number of religious congregations to support the needs of survivors of residential institutional child abuse. The Act provides that the funds received from the religious congregations were to be used to pay grants to survivors in order that they may avail of approved services. The types of approved services for which grant funding is available are housing support services, health and well-being services and education, learning and development services. The Act also permits the use of the fund to pay for expenditure incurred by Caranua in the performance of its functions.

The financial statements for Caranua before the committee today relate to the financial year 2017. At December 2017, cash contributions amounting to €101 million had been received into the fund. Interest earned on deposits amounted to €321,000. As at 31 December 2017, the status of the amounts received was as follows: €66.8 million had been paid out by way of grants to survivors of residential institutional child abuse; €7.6 million had been used to fund Caranua’s administration costs and there was a net balance of €26.9 million remaining in the fund. Caranua’s expenditure in 2017 totalled just over €17 million. Almost €15 million was expended in respect of grants to survivors. This included €10.7 million on housing-related grants and €3.7 million on health-related grants. Administration expenditure charged to the fund in 2017 amounted to €2.06 million.

My audit report in respect of Caranua’s financial statements for 2017 draws attention to the statement on internal control, which discloses weaknesses in the board’s control over grant payments, which created a risk that in some cases grant expenditure might not be used for the purposes intended. During the audit of the 2017 financial statements, sample-based examination of the controls over grant payments found that: evidence was not available in respect of 56% of the sample cases examined that required pricing quotations were received by the board in advance of grant payment; evidence was not available in respect of around 50% of the sample grants examined that required invoices and receipts had been presented following payment of grants and; evidence was not available in respect of 55% of a sample of housing support grants examined that claimants had provided the required proof of property tenancy or ownership. These grant control findings are similar to those of previous years’ audits, to which I had also drawn attention. The statement on internal control sets out the steps being taken by the board to resolve the control weaknesses identified. Fieldwork on the audit of Caranua’s draft 2018 financial statements has been completed. I expect that the financial statements will be certified in the coming weeks.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I thank the Chairman and the committee for giving Caranua the opportunity to come before it today to discuss the 2017 financial statements. Caranua was established in 2013 as the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Board, under the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Act 2012. Caranua is responsible for the management of a limited fund to improve the quality of life of people who, as children, experienced abuse and neglect in institutions and who have received an award or settlement as referred to in the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002. To date, €106.9 million has been received from the religious congregations and an additional €1.38 million in interest. There is just over €3 million outstanding in contributions, which is expected to be received in full by December 2019.

Caranua commenced accepting applications in January 2014. Since then, Caranua has received applications from 6,543 people. Of these, 5,987 were survivors who were eligible to apply for funding supports. By the end of September 2019, Caranua had made over 54,000 funding supports payments to the value of €91.3 million. At 30 September, the highest area of provision of funding supports was home improvements at €65.1 million, followed by health at €24.5 million, education at €1.4 million and exceptional needs support at €0.28 million. In carrying out its function, Caranua has tried to distribute the fund provided in the fairest way possible to all eligible survivors. The legislation sets out that all operational costs must be met from the fund. To the end of September, €11.5 million has been spent on operations. The board of Caranua and management have worked determinedly to minimise operational costs and continue to do so during the wind-down phase.

As part of enhanced reporting, we have improved our accountability and transparency through our monthly updates on our website. Our website has information on board minutes, monthly updates on applications and spend, information on complaints and feedback from survivors and other news items are published regularly. Caranua has to strike a balance between working with survivors in a person-centred and compassionate manner and our obligations as a public body with regards to our fiduciary responsibilities. While at times the process can be seen by some survivors as too bureaucratic, it has been necessary for Caranua to respond to the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Following recommendations of the 2017 audit, we invested a lot of time reviewing and improving our internal policies and procedures, aiming to combat the issues raised, while still focusing on delivering an accessible and person-centred service for survivors. Since the beginning of 2018, our internal controls are reviewed at every board meeting and actions are implemented and updated at the following meeting. Our risk register is also reviewed at every audit and risk committee meeting and updates are provided at each board meeting. Since December 2018, Caranua has been at 100% compliance with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies. The board of Caranua has established a wind-down committee to manage the orderly wind-down of Caranua. This committee met the representative of the Department of Education and Skills tasked with drafting the wind-down legislation required. The committee will continue to engage with the Department.

In order to combat discrepancies between the confidential payment system and the case management system, a complete change of practice was undertaken in 2018. Monthly reconciliations are now undertaken and a full report from 2018 shows the two systems are now fully reconciled. Public procurement guidelines are complied with in all instances of purchasing goods and services since 2018. For purchases prior to 2018, where the guidelines were not complied with or documentation was not retained, we have undertaken a process of market testing to ensure value for money. As Caranua is currently in wind-down, a decision was made not to re-tender for the existing suppliers. Since September 2018, we have introduced purchase requisition order documents. Evidence of tax clearance certificates are now obtained for all relevant suppliers. On travel and subsistence claims, supporting documentation is obtained for all claims made. The rate of subsistence for staff is in line with Government circulars.

On prepayment documents, a simplified acceptable quotations document is provided to survivors so they are aware in advance of the standard of quotation required for audit purposes. We have also introduced additional internal checks to ensure the paperwork is of the required standard prior to payment. We implemented a best effort approach with regard to post-payment requirements. During the course of their application, the application advisers ask that survivors send in their receipts for all funding supports received. In addition, we wrote to survivors requesting return of any outstanding receipts from 2018. Caranua has received 66% of receipts from funding supports made during 2018. While this may seem like a straightforward task, receiving the letters was upsetting for some survivors as they felt we did not trust them, which was not the case at all. It can be a challenge to meet both the needs of survivors and the audit recommendations.

Our 2018 audited accounts are currently with the Comptroller and Auditor General and we hope to have them finalised in the coming weeks. As Caranua operates with a limited fund, which is now nearly expended, we are nearing the end of our remit and are currently in the process of winding down the organisation. On 31 May 2018, the board of Caranua announced the decision to cease taking new or repeat applications from 1 August 2018. As legislation prevents Caranua from making first contact with survivors, we were dependent on raising awareness of the cessation date through a variety of methods, including outreach events, poster campaigns, media advertising, word of mouth and working with survivor support and other stakeholder groups.

As a result of this work, Caranua received 289 applications between 1 May and 1 August 2018. After 2 August 2018, Caranua received 378 applications. Except for in exceptional circumstances, Caranua has not provided funding supports to these survivors, but we have offered advocacy supports and some survivors have availed of them. In the past 18 months, Caranua has adopted a targeted approach to outreach events by focusing on a number of specific survivor groups, including survivors who required additional supports in managing their applications and those who had received limited or no funding supports. This targeted approach has proven to have excellent results, as survivors are provided with an opportunity to discuss their applications in person with their application advisers.

I will outline some examples of our outreach work. More than 100 survivors have opted to come to Caranua's offices for meetings with their application advisers. Outreach days have been organised in conjunction with the Christine Buckley Centre for Education and Support, Right of Place, the Cork Deaf Association and in the UK with the Cáirde survivors group, the Coventry Irish Society and the Disabled Survivors Support Network. Caranua commenced a programme of outreach for survivors in prisons across Ireland. In addition, 2019 marked the 20th anniversary of the State apology to survivors and the tenth anniversary of the publication of the Ryan report. I was delighted that the Christine Buckley Centre for Education and Support invited Caranua, along other survivor support and counselling services, to join the organising committee to plan two events to mark the anniversaries. We organised a conference, Facing the future together - Ireland's lifelong responsibility to the survivors of institutional abuse, on 11 May in Trinity College. In the afternoon, a celebration event was held for survivors.

Through our work, we have found that social isolation is an issue for a number of survivors. Many survivors contact Caranua on a regular basis for a chat as this communication is the only social contact they have. Survivors outside of Ireland often mention that Caranua is their only link with Ireland. We aim to assist survivors by linking them with survivor support groups and other organisations that may be able to offer support and befriending services in the longer term.

While working in Caranua, I have had the privilege of meeting and working with some of the most resilient and empowered survivors and I have also met survivors who are still very much impacted by their childhood experiences who will require supports for the foreseeable future. Caranua will continue to work in support of survivors until our closure. I thank the Chairperson and the members for their attention. We are happy to answer any questions that the committee may wish to raise.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Downes. The speakers have indicated in the following sequence. The first speaker will be Deputy Connolly. She will have 20 minutes. The second will be Deputy Munster and she will have 15. The other speakers, Deputies Cullinane, Catherine Murphy, MacSharry and O'Connell, will have ten minutes each.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na daoine a bhí anseo cheana agus roimh Ms Rachel Downes, atá anseo don chéad uair. Our guests are very welcome. Ms Downes was not here before, but the board has been here. I thank her for the briefing documents and the financial accounts. I have read them all. It was indicated on the risk register that money was still outstanding from the Christian Brothers. Is that still on the risk register? Yes or no.

Ms Rachel Downes:

It is. It will be downgraded.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is okay. It is still on the risk register. I imagine it is very difficult for the board to make decisions because it does not know how much money it has. What has the Department said about when Caranua will get the money? What is the total amount outstanding?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Just over €3 million is due at this stage.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is it exactly €3 million?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

It is €3.3 million.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was it due last May? It was due at various stages. When will it be handed over?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

In November and December. A schedule of payments has been agreed with the Christian Brothers.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has Caranua come to an agreement? Is it with the Christian Brothers predominantly or is there anybody else involved?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

No, it is just the Christian Brothers.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The sum of €3.3 million has been outstanding for quite some time. Is it correct that the agreement goes back to 2009?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That is right. Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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From 2009 to 2019 is a period of ten years. Is it correct that Caranua has agreed a schedule of payments with the Christian Brothers and that will be done in November and December?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

We received €3.6 million in the past six weeks and there are two further payments to be made, one at the beginning of November and one at the beginning of December.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Will that be it? Will the Christian Brothers be paying more to Caranua than is needed in order to comply with the legislation?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That is right.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the excess going to the national children's hospital?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That is right.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is there something else as well?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

The sum of €430,000 will be going to the children's hospital. Caranua can have an upper limit of €110 million plus the interest accrued.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand all that. Caranua gets up to €110 million plus the interest.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That is right. It is €1.38 million.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And the other surplus from the Christian Brothers is going to the national children's hospital.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That is right.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Why did it take so long?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

The Christian Brothers had said that some of the money was contingent on the sale of lands at Clonkeen and there was a significant delay.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the Department discuss with the board the difficulties created by the fact that it did not have the total amount and could not plan?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

Yes, the Department regularly meets the board under the performance delivery agreement. There were three meetings this year. Three meetings were held on an annual basis.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I saw all that. My question is how the board and the Department handled that difficulty when they did not know how much money they had. Caranua is in a wind-up situation and it is only getting the money now.

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

Perhaps I could assist. As chairman of the board, I was directly involved in that. It is true that there were moneys outstanding and I wrote to the Minister at the time in May 2018. We were concerned at that stage but we have got reassurances since. We never reached a situation where we ran out of money.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is okay. I understand that.

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

That is why I put it at the top of the risk register.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am glad he did. I have recognised that. I have read the minutes. I saw that it was discussed and that the board took it seriously. It was a very sensible thing to do, but it is not a good way in which to have to run an organisation. I am not getting a clear answer as to why the money was not paid over beforehand. In any case, that is fine.

My questions to Ms Downes are not personal in any way. The salary and administration costs are all set out. Was there a period when two CEOs were being paid? Can anyone respond to me on that? Did it ever happen that two CEOs were being paid at the same time; the acting CEO and the non-acting CEO.

Ms Rachel Downes:

There would have been a short period of overlap.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What period of overlap?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It would have been for two months, from October to December.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So for two months, two CEOs, one acting and one not acting, were paid.

Ms Rachel Downes:

One was on sick leave.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not going into the personal details. I reassure Ms Downes of that. This arose previously. It is none of my business. What is my business is value for money. For a period of two months, two salaries were paid to two CEOs, one acting and one not acting, for various reasons.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

Just to clarify, there was no additional salary being paid to the acting CEO during that period.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I did not ask that question. I asked if two salaries were being paid. Perhaps Ms Downes might come back to me when the confusion has been clarified. It is a very specific question about an acting CEO and a non-acting CEO. I am not making any comment on it.

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

Again, perhaps I could offer to assist.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want just a "Yes" or "No" answer that I require.

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

We will send Deputy Connolly a note.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want just a "Yes" or"No" answer as to whether two salaries were being paid for whatever reason. It is very simple. I am not going into the reasons. The board can come back before the end of the session to indicate whether two salaries were being paid. Mr. O'Callaghan might get that.

Ms Rachel Downes:

We will come back.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are there any board vacancies at the moment?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Not at this time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was there a new appointment?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There were two. Mr. Michael Fitzpatrick is our new director of finance.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How long has Mr. Fitzpatrick been in situ?

Mr. Michael Fitzpatrick:

Eight weeks.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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He is very welcome.

Mr. Michael Fitzpatrick:

I thank Deputy Connolly.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was there a period of time with no financial director?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Not since I have been CEO.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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After dealing with the board, I will move on to questions specifically relating to the accounts. The board is in a wind-down situation. I will come back to what that means in terms of accountability when I inquire about the accounts. Perhaps Mr. O'Callaghan might clarify in due course if there will be a board to come before us for the 2018 accounts and the 2019 accounts. How do we manage that accountability? When does he envisage that the board will be gone?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I would say June 2020 at the latest, but I am perfectly happy to come back. It is my duty to come back if asked by this committee to answer in respect of the 2018 and 2019 accounts.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Mr. O'Callaghan. I appreciate that. We might discuss it later, Chairman. We need a board so we have accountability to ask about those accounts. Perhaps that is something we can decide. Mr. O'Callaghan envisages the board being gone in 2020.

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It was noted in the context of the accounts that it should have been a wonderful and positive news story that there was €110 million to give out. I will not go back over that matter because I am here to discuss the accounts. However, there have been many problems with the administration of the fund. Does Mr. O'Callaghan accept that?

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

There were problems in the early days. There is no question about it, but I am very happy with the service we are providing.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Absolutely, but this was under legislation from 2012 and the first payments were only made from January 2014 onwards. There were many difficulties in the administration. Mr. O'Callaghan accepted that previously.

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

I have, yes indeed. Does Deputy Connolly remember that we did not open for business until 2014. I was not there at the time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Absolutely. I have no interest in personalising anything.

Mr. David O?Callaghan:

That is all right. I know.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am looking at a board administering €110 million, which is a very positive news story, and how that came to pass.

There were certainly major problems. Mr. O'Callaghan might not agree but he is agreeing there were certain problems.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

There were problems in the earlier days; there is no question about that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let me quote the Comptroller and Auditor General. The background to this, of course, concerned the previous redress board and all the money. I am subject to correction but I believe the estimated cost of the previous redress board and commission of investigation was €1.5 billion. I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General produced many reports but I am referring to the one from 2015. My point is for him and also the Department. Page 11 of the summary sets out the setting up of a redress scheme. It is stated that lessons learned should be identified, in addition to improvements that could be applied to any future redress scheme. Redress cost €110 million and we were supposed to have learned lessons.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

To what document is the Deputy referring?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am referring to the Comptroller and Auditor General's chapter on-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The special report.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is from 2016.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not going to quote it but about what was recommended as a learning exercise prior to what we are talking about. It is stated the design of any scheme should be "to reduce litigation costs", in particular. Reference is also made to "accountability arrangements". This is very important and highlighted. Reference is also made to "expenditure forecasting methodology", to which we will come back. I am referring to the forecasting of expenditure over time. Also mentioned is "effectiveness in meeting intended objectives and outcomes". Did anyone look at those recommendations at board level from day one to determine how improvements could be made?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

On the four recommendations, the first was to reduce litigation costs. What were the others?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Accountability arrangements, expenditure forecasting methodology, and effectiveness in meeting intended objectives and outcomes.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I was not there at the start so I cannot answer the Deputy's question on whether they were considered in setting up Caranua but I can tell her litigation has been kept to a minimum. There has been very little.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many cases are pending?

Ms Rachel Downes:

None.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No cases pending. There is no notice of any litigation or letter to that effect.

Ms Rachel Downes:

No. There is no litigation at all at the moment.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has there been litigation?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Most recently eight cases were taken against the independent appeals officer. Caranua joined as a notice party because any outcome may affect its operations.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that case ongoing or finished?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It would have been completed in May 2019.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

The judge found in our favour.

Ms Rachel Downes:

It was in relation to the authority of the board to implement the 2016 guidelines.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand that was a settlement. I understand there was an agreement in relation to the-----

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

There was a judgment.

Ms Rachel Downes:

No. There would have been a previous case, which concerned the independent appeals officer to Caranua. Unfortunately, our only recourse under the legislation if we do not agree with a decision of the independent appeals officer is to take a High Court case.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What are the two cases?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was a case in 2017 in which Caranua appealed a decision of the independent appeals officer. Following that, eight survivors took a case against the independent appeals officer and Caranua joined as a notice party. That was resolved in May 2019.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was the original case about the limit being set?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And the payments prior to that limit being set were now being taken into the count.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Correct.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That had not been set out clearly at all in the criteria, according to the appeals officer.

Ms Rachel Downes:

That is what the appeals officer felt but when he actually looked into it and took legal advice, it was found that it actually was set out.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am sorry but that is not correct. What is correct is that there was a settlement and the appeals officer acknowledged, under legal advice, that the previous payments had to be taken into account.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I suppose that led to the next case, in which the judge found that was correct.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The criteria were not set out clearly for applicants. When the cap was set, applicants were not aware of them, nor were they told at that point. It is a matter of accountability.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I think the applicants would have been told. As I said-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I think they were not.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Every applicant, when working with Caranua, works with an application adviser. Applicants would have that relationship and that conversation would have been taking place all the time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This occurred prior to Ms Downes' time. What she said is not accurate. There were many problems and the appeals officer was quite strong. In the end, the matter was settled. The point I am making is that accountability was absent in that clear criteria were not set out. Mr. O'Callaghan is fully aware of this because it was dealt with on the last occasion, at the previous relevant meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

The judge found in our favour. The judge found that we were quite entitled to change the criteria. That was the core item.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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First of all, the judge did not find it was in agreement. I am not going into the specifics of the case. The point I am making is that the appeals officer agreed with the board in the end, in an agreed settlement. Before Ms Downes was involved, a cap was set.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

That is right.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Applicants were not told clearly that the previous payments would be taken into account. That is the point I am making.

Ms Rachel Downes:

That is why they then got a letter notifying them of that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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With regard to letters Ms Downes mentioned, when letters are sent out to tell an applicant his or her application is valid or otherwise, is it set out clearly that there is an appeals mechanism?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes, every letter sets it out clearly. Applicants also get an attached leaflet with information.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me ask the question. Ms Downes will be aware of the background to this. The reason I am asking my question is that what was described was not happening and caused great distress.

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was a case in 2016, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were quite a number of cases. It did not happen so Caranua had to change its practice. The practice has changed to the extent that every single person who applies and whose application is deemed either valid or not valid gets a letter setting out that he or she can appeal the decision and how to appeal it.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Downes.

With regard to page 29 of the accounts, I wish to ask a few practical questions. I am sure Ms Downes will be able to clear this up quickly. Cancelled payments recoverable comprise quite a sizeable sum. Could Ms Downes explain what that means?

Ms Rachel Downes:

This is one of the complexities of Caranua. We provide numerous funding supports on an annual basis. We find that, on average, about €2 million in funding supports actually come back to Caranua again, including through cancellation. A survivor may choose not to go ahead with a certain supplier or may decide, for one reason or another, that he or she no longer wants the service. It can also happen that the cheques provided go out of date. There is a huge-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Caranua have a breakdown of the cancelled payments?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We have that. We keep that on our system.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chair might get that for us.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I will check what level of detail exists. Obviously, some of the data are quite personal. What level is required?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chair might take a note of this. We might come back to it and decide before the end of the meeting.

I am trying to establish the position on these cancelled payments. Might they be where somebody got a cheque for €1,000 or €15,000 but did not spend it, for one reason or another?

Ms Rachel Downes:

That could be the case, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many of them died?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I am not be aware of that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Ms Downes have a breakdown? It is a very sizeable sum and its not being spent should be a very positive story.

Ms Rachel Downes:

To clarify, what usually happens is that the money goes back out again. Most of the money, while it would come back to Caranua, would be reissued to the same survivor.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be recycled.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes, to the same survivor or to another, depending on what is needed.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, let us be clear. I am talking about the person who gets the money, not about recycling to somebody else.

Ms Rachel Downes:

That would be usual as well.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very good. Ms Downes will have a breakdown for us. She will be able to see how many people-----

Ms Rachel Downes:

The information we could provide is what we call cancel-and-reissue information. Cheques are sent back to us for cancellation and then reissued.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At this moment, can Ms Downes tell me how many-----

Ms Rachel Downes:

I do not have that information.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I said €400,000 or €100,000 was not spent, we would not know at this point whether------

Ms Rachel Downes:

I do not have that information. We could provide it, though.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important, given the length of time it took to process applications. Would that have been considered?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Regarding the cancel-and-reissue cases?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I will outline what we do to make sure that does not happen on a monthly basis. Obviously, cheques go out of date on a six-monthly basis. Every month, a member of our finance team looks at any cheques that have gone out of date and the survivor in question is contacted to find out why it happened. We do that on an ongoing basis monthly.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The breakdown would be very important.

I have a practical question. The 2017 accounts were signed off on 13 December 2018. Is that normal? Why did it take a year to-----

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was a delay.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why was there a delay?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was a combination of factors, the main one being sick leave.

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was a combination; sick leave was the main area, to be honest.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When would Ms Downes have expected those to come before the board as a matter of good practice?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I can only speak for this year, in that the accounts were with the Comptroller and Auditor General by the February date which is assigned.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what is important, is that right?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We have the financial statements for 2018.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where did the delay arise in respect of the December meeting of the board approving it?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It was not necessarily that it was delayed at board, I think it was just an internal delay, unfortunately.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Downes will have to clarify for me.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Sick leave unfortunately delayed the accounts for that year.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Again I do not want to go into a personal matter but the previous year, when did the accounts come before the board?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I do not have that information in front of me.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. O'Callaghan have it?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

As far as I know, they were on time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were on time? What time was that?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I do not have that information.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Somebody should have it really, it is financial.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It is obviously back in the office.

Ms Rachel Downes:

What I can say is that we have acknowledged past mistakes in respect of that and we have worked extremely hard to ensure-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just one second. Would the Comptroller and Auditor General have any knowledge of this?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not have the detail with me but I can certainly get it for the Deputy.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The delay was not on the side of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Partly it probably is because we do not get to all the financial statements when they are submitted to us. Caranua has been providing us with the draft financial statements.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So I am being a bit unfair.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We only get to them in the second half of the year so there could be delays. Once we carry out the audit fieldwork, if there are supplementary queries there may be a bit of to and fro while the matter is being dealt with. Once we clear them, the financial statements go back to the board.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General. That is clarified. When he is given the note, the Chair might clarify when the previous financial statements were presented to the board.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Is the Deputy asking in respect of 2016?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would suggest someone here might look up the financial statements on the Caranua website now. That question can be answered in five minutes. Is there a staff member who can do that?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We will find that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That can happen now in a few short minutes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On page 5 of the accounts, at the bottom, it is stated that the board commenced a self-evaluation of board effectiveness, an evaluation review, in December 2017, which was to be completed in 2018. Was it completed, is it available and what was the cost?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There is no cost, it is part of the code of governance for State bodies.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The board evaluated itself.

Ms Rachel Downes:

It is a self-evaluation as part of the code, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is self-evaluation part of it? Did the board evaluate itself or was there an outside influence?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was not an outside influence.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was there any cost?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When was it published? When was it completed in 2018?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It is an annual piece of work that is done so-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Ms Downes just answer? I am sorry but the Chair will be stopping me and I just want to ask a number of questions.

Ms Rachel Downes:

No problem.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is stated here on page 5 that it was to be completed in 2018. When was it completed in 2018, is it available, what showed up on it and what did the board learn from it?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I am not sure when it was completed, it is just part of the normal governance of the board in accordance with the 2016 guidelines. It is done annually. I am not sure when it was done.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is an important thing, effectiveness and evaluation. Organisations do it and learn from it and highlight what is good and what is bad. Caranua can share that with us. Over the years we have seen different problems in terms of the administration of the fund by Caranua. In fact, the Comptroller and Auditor General in his opening statement refers to the weaknesses in internal control that recurred every year. I am asking a very simple question. Was the effectiveness of the board discussed at board level? What was learned?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Certainly it would have been discussed at board level, I think under the heading of governance, which an item on the agenda of every board meeting.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All right, that is not a good enough-----

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

As Ms Downes said, we are now 100% compliant with the 2016 guidelines on governance for State bodies.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua may well be. Every organisation that comes in here tells us it is compliant. I am asking when it was completed, if it was discussed, and what was learned. I am not getting an answer so I am going to just leave that for the moment and go on to page 7 of the accounts. At the bottom of the page there is a reference to consultancy costs, which came up in the committee's general discussion this morning. The legal advice went up to €51,000. Why was that?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There were two cases, one was an overhang from 2016, a judicial review that was taken against Caranua and the second one was in respect of the independent appeals officer, which I mentioned earlier.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next heading is human resources. In 2016 it was €80,000 and then it went down to €16,000. What was that?

Ms Rachel Downes:

In 2016 Caranua received sanction to increase its staffing numbers from ten to 24.6, I think. There was work done on that. We did not have the same output into 2017.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Ms Downes see that figure of €80,000? Does that refer to extra staff in 2016 or to what does it refer?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No, my understanding is that there was a review done to determine the number of staff required to give an optimal service to survivors.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know what Ms Downes is saying, I am sorry. What does €80,000 mean spent on HR?

Ms Rachel Downes:

That was consultancy fees. This was in respect of increasing staff numbers and a proposal for that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just to be fair, does that mean the €80,000 went to a consultant or that it went to staff? What does that figure mean?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It was not to staff, it was external.

Ms Catherine Hynes:

If I may intervene, as I have been around since before Ms Downes was CEO, when Caranua started its operations it was heavily reliant on agency staff. That had issues in terms of very high turnover of staff, a lack of consistency. There were some staff who were possibly only working there for a month at a time. The quality of service that was delivered to survivors was not optimised. Caranua commissioned a firm to carry out a study on workflows, application timelines and so on to see how they could deliver an optimal service for staff. I think the human resources figure referred to for 2016 was that study.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The €80,000.

Ms Catherine Hynes:

I think so. I would have to verify that but I think that was the reason.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would appreciate it if that could be verified.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We might verify that with a note in due course.

Ms Catherine Hynes:

We can verify it with a note.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Again it is down to €16,000 in 2017. What was that for? Was it more consultancy?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was a small amount of consultancy work done and also an internal investigation piece of work that needed to be done which involved an external company.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Again, Ms Downes might get a list and breakdown of all this in due course. I do not see it here. What is business improvement?

Ms Rachel Downes:

This is a piece of work that was done. The Deputy may remember that at the last committee, they were looking for improved and enhanced statistical reporting, so a piece of work was done on our case management system to allow that to happen, as well as some other small pieces.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am thinking of the sum of €110 million that is there to go to the most vulnerable as a right once they have a valid application. Then I look at the accounts each year. I know Ms Downes is relatively new. I see business money, I see public relations.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I suppose it is one of those things where we have spoken about the difficulty of balancing. At the last committee there was a lot of talk about enhancing our statistics, making statistics more available in our work. This piece of work was done to enable that to happen. It is the balancing between our operational costs and ensuring that the biggest balance goes towards services for survivors.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to get the details of that.

I will move on to outstanding cases. The board is going to wind down and will be gone by June, is that right?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

June at the latest.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What contingencies have been made?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We are still working with about 300 survivors at this time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many survivors is Caranua working with?

Ms Rachel Downes:

With 300.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it exactly 300?

Ms Rachel Downes:

In the round. It is about 320.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will give them a figure. It is very important to be precise in relation to these-----

Ms Rachel Downes:

Some survivors we are working with are not necessarily getting funding supports from Caranua. We are providing advocacy services as well. For some survivors who are working with us, we are looking at other supports they may need outside Caranua.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Ms Downes to stick with me for a moment. How many open applications are there to access what remains of the €110 million, plus interest?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There are 317.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they all new applications?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No, there is a combination. Some have beem open since 2014; some are new.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the breakdown?

Ms Rachel Downes:

The majority - probably about 95% - are initial applications. Some are repeat applications, which means that the applicants have previously made an application to Caranua and that they have come back with a second.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some 95% are new.

Ms Rachel Downes:

In the sense that the applications may date from 2018. We stopped taking applications from 1 August 2018. Anybody with whom we are working we were working with prior to that date.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand, but they are new applications.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes, they are not repeat applications.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Therefore, 95% of them have come forward for the first time to Caranua.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the oldest application?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We have worked with people aged 26 to 99 years.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the oldest-----

Ms Rachel Downes:

The oldest is in his 70s. I cannot give an exact figure.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important to know because as time passes people are becoming more vulnerable.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I agree completely.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but I was actually asking what was the oldest application.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I do not have that exact figure, but I can find out.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very important as we are looking at value for money from a limited fund. We are looking for effectiveness and to have things dealt with quickly. Of the 317 new cases, what is the oldest?

Ms Rachel Downes:

To put it another way, given the nature of the group of survivors, we cannot rush their applications. We need to give them time. That is why there are people with whom we have worked since 2014. They need that time and space in order to-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree totally with Ms Downes, but I am focusing on Caranua's effectiveness. I understand people need time and flexibility to a certain extent, but I have a difficulty with the Comptroller and Auditor General's insistence on looking at post-work payments, receipts and so on. Of course, flexibility is needed in that regard. However, it is a simple question. Of the 317 new cases, what is the oldest application?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We can get that information for the Deputy.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the range of payments to date?

Ms Rachel Downes:

In what way?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the range of payments Caranua has made to each applicant? Some receive €1,000, while others receive €100,000.

Ms Rachel Downes:

The average payment is about €13,500.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not ask that figure. I asked for the range of payments.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the average payment?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It is €13,500.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The average payment is €13,500, but I asked Ms Downes for the range of payments.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I do not understand the Deputy's question.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are the lowest and the highest payments?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I am sorry. They range from zero to €100,000. Obviously, we have had some cases that have been overturned on appeal. That drives up costs much higher than what we expected.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not talking about the cost but about the payments made to individuals, from the lowest to the highest. What was the highest payment made to one individual?

Ms Sinéad Dwyer:

It was €100,000.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the lowest payment?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We are probably talking about a couple of hundred euro. We are also looking at having a needs-based fund, depending on what a survivor needs. That will dictate how the application will go.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely, it should be a needs-based fund. That is why it was set up. Unfortunately, at some stage the board decided for practical reasons to cap the amounts of money, but it was done mid-term with little consultation. We have been through all of this before.

Ms Rachel Downes:

There is a difficulty when one is working with people who have unlimited needs and one has a limited fund.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not see a difficulty at all in working with people. I see a difficulty in the administration of the fund as I have read all of the accounts and complaints. I am not putting the focus on the people who are accessing the fund, rather I am putting the focus on what is in place in terms of accountability. It seems that when the board was set up, it was obvious that there was a limited fund, a limited amount of time and that a limited number of people would come forward. All of these decisions should have been made. Going back to the chapter in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, there should have been learnings from the previous one and predictions about the expenses involved and what would be necessary. It seems that was not done.

Ms Sinéad Dwyer:

I will come in. As Ms Downes was just saying, each application is individual. Despite there being a cap in place, there is flexibility, depending on the survivor's individual circumstances.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The flexibility came afterwards, after many complaints had been received.

Ms Sinéad Dwyer:

My understanding is there has always been flexibility, but initially there was no cap in place. Therefore, we did not need to look at exceptional circumstances.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not my understanding from reading the reports of the appeals officer and the many representations we have received. The cap was introduced arbitrarily because the board realised it had a limited fund and it applied a limit. People were told, "You have got that amount. You cannot get any more." There were all sorts of problem, as Ms Downes knows. Letters were sent without explaining things to people. How much is left in the fund?

Ms Rachel Downes:

About €5 million. The remaining fund will be about €8 million.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will that €8 million be for the 317 new applications, plus the repeat applications?

Ms Rachel Downes:

There is a combination. The majority will go towards them, but we need to carry out a review. In the piece of work we are doing we are looking at the needs of the people with whom we are working. Our intention is that there will be no money left at the end. The remaining fund needs to be distributed. That is something at which we will be looking also.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is happening in the wind-down? Is there a wind-down committee?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who is on the wind-down committee?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Who?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Is the Deputy asking for their names?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Patricia Carey chairs the committee which includes Francis Treanor, Frances Harrington and Katherine Finn.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are all board members.

Ms Rachel Downes:

They are.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They form the wind-down committee.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the vision in the winding down? What is the plan?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It is to ensure there will be a smooth transition. We make monthly projections in looking at what is left in the fund and how it is being distributed to see if there is a possibility to look at doing additional work with survivors. As part of the work, we are looking at making exceptional needs payments. A big piece is recognising that there are a number of survivors with whom we are working who will need long-term support. As I mentioned in my opening statement, at this stage there are a lot of survivors who ring us just to a chat. We are working with other groups, Alone in particular. We are looking to having a project with it and link survivors with it. Whether it is through the access services or the befriending service-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua may well be doing all of that work, but its primary purpose is to administer the fund in a fair, just and equitable manner.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Having listened to Ms Downes and read all of the stuff, it seems that has not happened on a consistent basis. We have received many representations and complaints about the fund. I am still trying to figure out how Caranua is going to use the remaining funds in a fair, consistent and equal manner. I have not heard a plan for the wind-down.

Ms Rachel Downes:

The Deputy is right. Our remit is to distribute funding to survivors-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In a fair, equal and consistent manner.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Almost €91.3 million has been spent.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have read all of that, but I am talking about the wind-down.

Ms Rachel Downes:

As well as that, I appreciate the Deputy's point about complaints. It is something into which we have very much looked. I think the Deputy will agree that the number of complaints has dropped and that the number of representations has also dropped. We have tried very hard for the last couple of years in working with survivors to ensure improvements in our service.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will come back to the complaints made in the second round of questions.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Perhaps I might come in to address the Deputy's question directly.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Callaghan can do so. Because I am about to be stopped, he might also speak about the issue of rent. While he is addressing the previous question, I ask him to clarify the position the position on rent, the nature of the agreement-----

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

First-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me finish my question.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

First, on the wind-down-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please let me finish my question.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I am sorry.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When does the agreement Caranua has with the Office of Public Works come to an end? If the board is out of business by June at the latest, when will it stop paying rent?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I will take the question about the Office of Public Works. The OPW has the lease and we have an agreement with it. We will need to give six months' notice.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has Caranua given notice?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We have not, but we have met it and indicated. We have also had a conversation in which it has been indicated that as our staff members are winding down, we will be happy to co-locate or move premises, as necessary.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not know which of the witnesses is answering my question about the rent. I have finished, but I would really like the two questions to be answered. Mr. O'Callaghan was taking a different one. The specific question was about rent. How much is Caranua paying in rent? How much did it pay last year? How much is it paying this year? When will it be leaving the premises?

Ms Rachel Downes:

In total our rent payment is €279,402 per annum.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is €279,000.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

As I said, we need to give a six-month notice period. We had that discussion with the OPW, which is aware of our circumstances.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has Caranua given notice?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We have not given notice yet. We have not needed to give notice yet but the OPW is aware. We had a meeting with it to explain our circumstances.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

With regard to the wind-down, our objective is to make sure that we use up the remaining funds - the €8 million Ms Downes referred to - and make sure they all go to our survivors. That is number one because our survivors are number one.

The other things that this committee is looking into are the nuts and bolts of winding down an organisation, such as redundancy of staff, the surrendering of the premises and archives. Things like that all have to be discussed and done in an orderly fashion. As well as that, of course, the Department will be introducing legislation to wind down the body. There is not a lot of experience of winding down a State body.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does that require legislation?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes. I gather so.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How long does that take? That is another issue.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Sorry, I have confirmed-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has nothing to do with Mr. O'Callaghan.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I share the Chairman's views on the delay in legislation generally. I have confirmed that there is nothing stopping us from spending the last of the money, surrendering the building and switching off the lights. We do not have to wait for the legislation to do that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The average payment so far was approximately €8,000.

Ms Rachel Downes:

No, the average is approximately €13,500.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many claims has Caranua on hand?

Ms Rachel Downes:

At this moment in time, we are working with just over 300 survivors.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What is the figure?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It is 317.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When we multiple €13,000 by 300, we get approximately €4 million. Caranua will have €8 million in funds between now and its wind-down. Based on the cases to date, the average payment is €13,000 per case. Caranua has received 11,500 applications. Some payments will be higher than €13,000 and some will be lower. However, if the average remains roughly as it is, what will happen to the other €4 million?

Ms Rachel Downes:

This is something we are looking at at the moment as part of the wind-down committee's work. We are hoping to look at other survivors who may still need supports. Our intention is that we will not hand any moneys back at the end anyway.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine but Caranua is closed for applications. Will it double the payment for the last applicants to use up the money?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Of course not, but Ms Downes is not giving me an explanation. Based on Caranua's experience to date and its administrative costs, it should cost approximately €4 million to deal with the final 300 cases if they are similar to the previous several thousand cases, which they should be. Did Caranua close it off too late? I will ask the chairman of the board. Let us say Caranua makes average payments in these cases and pays out €4 million. If it ends up with €2 million unspent, where will it go? Will it go to the children's hospital?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I appreciate the point the Chairman is making.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Callaghan can see it is very simple.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I can tell the Chairman that we have no shortage of exceptional cases - well-deserving cases - that we will revisit. There are several hundred other cases.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are into a new situation. Caranua has closed its files and has 317 cases left. It is clear, based on past experience, that it will not utilise most of the remaining funding. Will Caranua re-advertise or reopen for applications?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We have enough cases on hands of a deserving and exceptional nature. We will go back and visit them. Our objective is to spend every single cent on our survivors.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We understand Caranua will write the cheques. That has been said four times.

Ms Rachel Downes:

We have received applications since we closed the fund on 1 August. Since then, 378 survivors have applied to us. We have made some payments under that for exceptional circumstances. This is the group we have also offered advocacy supports to. These are survivors who have not yet availed of the fund and who have applied.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua has 317 live cases.

Ms Rachel Downes:

The figure is 378.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It also has a big box with another 300 cases in it.

Ms Rachel Downes:

We need to look at need. We know now we have a very limited pot of money. We now need to look at what we can provide to the survivors who are still remaining. We cannot say that one size fits all or we will definitely give X amount because do not know that yet. We need to know what needs the current survivors we are working with may have and what we may be left with. It will then be a matter of ensuring that the remainder of the fund is put to good use with the survivors who are still waiting for it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Caranua has 378 cases on file that are not live, open cases. They are late applications.

Ms Rachel Downes:

They are late applications.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If, when Caranua winds up in June 2020 and the board is no longer in place, cases are taken against it or appeals are made and there is a tab to be picked up, will that cost fall on the Department? As we all know, residual issues can arise.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

Any assets and liabilities would revert to the Minister.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will it come out of the funding earmarked for the children's hospital? Will it come out of the moneys from the Christian Brothers - the excess moneys beyond the €110 million or whatever the figure is - that are to go to the children's hospital?

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

There is no connection between these Caranua moneys and the children's hospital money. If there are any residual funds left over, it will be a matter for the Government and, I suppose, the Oireachtas to legislate for what will happen to that money. The Christian Brothers' excess money is earmarked-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is going straight to the children's hospital. I would hate to think that would be clawed back if there are any residual costs to the Department.

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

There is no connection between them.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department will have to carry the cost. Is that what Mr. Ó hAonghusa is saying?

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

The intention, hope and expectation are that Caranua will finish its work with no liabilities and no assets.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The board is closing shop at the end of June. We have never seen its annual financial statements completed on time. Based on the experience of this year, last year and the previous year, Caranua's final financial statement will not come until several months after the date on which it is expected to close. I do not know how that will work.

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

There have been a couple of examples of organisations that have closed down. Without pre-empting what will be in the legislation that we are working on, usually some other organisation takes on the responsibility for submitting final accounts. It could be another State body or a Department. I presume, in this case, it is more than likely that it will be the Minister who would have to close off the final accounts and submit them in the normal manner. We have not yet got into that level of detail in the draft legislation.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are six months away.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

The heads of Bill are under consideration at the moment.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is a big list of such Bills. It is difficult to see the timeline being easily met because we do not know which Government will move the Bill next year. I apologise to Deputy Munster for delaying her.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In the annual report we received last night, under the heading of applications made after 1 August 2018, which was the cessation date, Caranua had received applications from 175 individuals. Of these, 95 had been previously dealt with as such or had previously applied for funding supports.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It appears these individuals were not satisfied given that they made further applications. Caranua indicated that 54 of the remaining 80 individuals were not eligible and did not qualify, while four were exceptional needs cases. This left 22 applicants who, I presume, were eligible for funding.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Were it not for the cut-off date, would they have been eligible and entitled?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I was curious when I read that.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Can I explain what happens? Every time an application comes in under that process, it is reviewed. This is how we identify the exceptional needs from it. It is not that applications come in and that is the end of it. They are reviewed.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are 22 eligible applicants but Caranua has not included them.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they included in the figure of 317?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No, that is separate.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Previous speakers referred to Caranua's duty of care. Caranua hopes to use the remaining €8 million in funding by June but there may be a surplus. It did not know for certain that it would use all this money, although that is its aim. Given that Caranua has a duty of care and given Mr. O'Callaghan's comments a few moments ago that "survivors are number one", why would Caranua not have included those 22 applicants who were deemed eligible for funding?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We did not know we had €8 million until very recently. At the time of the applications, when this piece of work was done, we were working with 2,000 survivors.

That work was done in terms of looking at the applications that we had on hand at that stage and what the possible projected spend might be. Only recently did we get to a position where we can get projected figures. This is where we are now hoping-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Caranua flag it up with the Department that 22 individual applicants were eligible? They came after the cessation date all right but they were eligible and perfectly entitled to redress. That was their right. That is the purpose of Caranua. That is what it was set up for. The body has not included them. Ms Downes said Caranua was unsure whether it was because the body had enough in the funds. Did Caranua contact the Department? Was the body concerned that there were 22 survivors of institutional abuse in this State who were not being taken on board?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We have had regular engagements with the Department in respect of contributions.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What did the Department say when Caranua made contact about those 22 applications?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It would not necessarily have been in respect of the 22 applications. It would have been about funding in general.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Caranua did not think it important enough that there were 22 victims or survivors of institutional abuse in this State who were entitled to, and eligible for, the supports. The body set up for that purpose had a duty of care towards them but Caranua did not think it worthy to raise that with the Department. Is that correct?

Ms Rachel Downes:

That was not the case at all.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So Caranua did raise it. Is that correct?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No, we raised the question of the outstanding moneys.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are talking about people here. We are talking about 22 survivors of institutional abuse. My question to Ms Downes calls for a "Yes" or "No" answer. Did Caranua flag up with the Department that 22 people were going to be thrown to one side and that Caranua was not giving them money? It was money they were entitled to. The body set up with a duty of care to those survivors took the view that the Department need not know. Caranua should have made it known. The body has a responsibility to make it known to the Department that those 22 people were getting zilch. I am looking for a "Yes" or "No" answer. Ms Downes has said Caranua did not. Is the answer "Yes" or "No"?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We would have provided updates to the Department.

Ms Catherine Hynes:

The redress board closed for applications in 2011. That was eight years ago. My most recent query relates to a survivor who was in St. Joseph's School for the Deaf in Cabra. The most recent query in terms of this person's eligibility to access redress was within the past week. Unfortunately, with everything, including all schemes of redress, there is a closing date.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that an administrative date?

Ms Catherine Hynes:

It is a statutory limit that was set in 2011. The redress scheme was in operation from 2002. It was supposed to end in 2005. It was open for late applications until legislation was passed in 2011. Between the period from 2005 to 2011 there were an additional 2,000 late applications. Unfortunately, it is simply a fact that all schemes have an end date.

I agree with Deputy Munster, but we have to take into account that she is talking about 22 survivors. Let us consider the numbers. A study was done on the possible number of people who were still alive who could apply to Caranua. That figure was in or around 12,000. Of that, approximately 50% of the people who were eligible to apply actually applied to Caranua. Caranua has conducted extensive outreach and publicity on its closing date. Ms Downes may wish to comment on that.

It is an unfortunate fact-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not unfortunate. it is shameful.

Ms Catherine Hynes:

There is always going to be an end date for schemes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Hynes made reference to outreach. The Caranua report states that while it would have preferred to place advertisements in all relevant and national newspapers, it was mindful that all operational costs, including advertising, must come from under the fund. Caranua had already spent €11 million on operations and administration. Surely, the survivor comes first. Caranua undertook to outreach to get to as many as possible. It has a duty of care to each survivor. Surely, Caranua should have held back on nothing to ensure that every survivor could be informed about the closing date. It seems to me that Caranua cut back.

Ms Rachel Downes:

We did major work on advertising the cessation date. We went to all the Sunday newspapers in Ireland, the UK and America. Unfortunately, advertising is cost-prohibitive. I completely understand what Deputy Munster is saying about operational costs. We have tried. Many of our operational costs go towards survivors. We have a free telephone service and a free post service. We undertake outreach to ensure we get out to meet survivors. That is part of our work as well. We tried to ensure that we used our networks, and a poster campaign was run. That would have been in every general practitioner office, social protection office and Garda office. We used as many extensive networks as we could to get the word out.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Had it been more thorough, would Caranua have reached out to more survivors? I have listening to what Ms Downes has said. To be honest, I am still completely shocked. I read a report last night about the responses to some of the victims two years ago. They discussed how they were treated or how they perceived themselves to have been treated by Caranua. I am in total shock that there are 22 survivors of institutional abuse and that Caranua did not see fit to inform the Department or flag it up at any stage that these 22 survivors were going to get nothing. I will leave that with the witnesses.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I wish to come in.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The fact is I asked the question. The answer is that Caranua did not flag it up. As an organisation, Caranua did not flag it up. Caranua was fully aware that 22 people were falling through the cracks and it did nothing about it. I have asked the question. We have spent five minutes on it.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I do not think the Deputy has got the full information. I do not think the committee has been given a proper answer.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are 22 applicants who were eligible and who have got nothing. There were 22 applications of 175 after the cessation.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

They are included in the figures that we mentioned to the Chairman.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have just asked the question. They are not in the figure of 317 open applications.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

They are not in the open ones pre 1 August, but they are in the second number of 378.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are in reserve.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes, they are in reserve. It is Caranua's responsibility to deal in the best way it can with the survivors. We would not be going to the Department on any sort of regular basis about Caranua matters or to say that we have 22 people. I misread where the 22 survivors came from. They applied late, but they are part of the 378 that we intend to revisit. There is no question-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In answer to Deputy Connolly, Mr. O'Callaghan has said Caranua is still working with 320 cases.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

That is right.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A total of 317 are open cases.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

They applied before-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua made no reference to that in the annual report. It simply glazed over them. The report said four cases were exceptional needs, 95 of the 175 had previously applied for funding, and 54 were not eligible. The report glazed over the fact that there were 22. Nowhere in the opening statement did the Caranua representatives say that it had included those in the other figures. I have asked the question three times now. They are not included.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

There is no question of Caranua casting aside 22 of our survivors.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua has not mentioned that in the annual statement. It did not refer to the 22 who did qualify after the cessation date and say they will be included. Why would Caranua not put that in the report if that was factual?

Ms Sinéad Dwyer:

There was communication with anyone who applied after the cessation date. It would have been their preferred method of communication, whether e-mail, letter or a telephone call. Basically, we would have advised them that we had received the application post cessation. We would have said that, in the interim, if we did not get the chance to review it within a week but if there was an exceptional need, then the person was invited to come back and contact us and we would review the case urgently.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of 175 cases, four were deemed as being of exceptional need. Seeing as the Caranua representatives said they would not leave them to go off without any support or anything else, did the body write to those 22 applicants and tell them that they would be part of the remaining group of open applications that would receive funding?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No, because we are only at the stage now where we are in a position that we will know whether we will have outstanding funds available.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was between August and December, so from December last year to October this year, Caranua did not write to them. There are only 22 applications.

Ms Rachel Downes:

No. The Deputy has to remember we are working with 2,000 applications at the same time. We are only now at a stage where we have 300 applications. This is brand new this month. Caranua has always worked with-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many applications was it dealing with last December?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I think it was 1,950. It is always constant-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It did not get a chance to deal with the 22 since then.

Ms Rachel Downes:

There was no point in raising false hope for people if the funding supports are not going to be available. We need to be very careful. We have made commitments to a number of people and we need to ensure-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Therefore, there is no guarantee that those 22 people will get anything because there are a number of people Caranua has made commitments to, and it is not sure or does not know.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Unfortunately, when working with a limited fund, we are in a very difficult position.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That was my point from the very start. There are 22 survivors of institutional abuse who are not going to be dealt with in the way they deserve and have a right to, although Caranua, as a board, has a duty of care to them.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

That is-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to move on.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Sorry, Deputy. We are not going to let 22 of our survivors-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have asked the question three or four times.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We have been in touch with them, as Ms Dwyer said. We have written to all of them.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did Caranua tell the 22 applicants who were deemed eligible that they will qualify?

Ms Rachel Downes:

No, because that is under review at the moment. We are in a position where, as we do not have the funding supports, we cannot make commitments.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They are left there. In regard to the funding, the final fund was €111.38 million and as it is capped at €110 million, that leaves €1.38 million. Is that €1.38 million going to the children's hospital?

Ms Rachel Downes:

It is going towards operational costs.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister had said recently that €449,000 of the Christian Brothers moneys-----

Ms Aoife Conduit:

Some €430,000 will go to the national children's hospital.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The religious orders were not instructed to give over money to correct the injustices they were responsible for only for it to go to the national children's hospital.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

It is set out in the legislation.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is set out in the legislation. Even if it is legal, it is terribly wrong. What is happening is that money is being taken from the mouths of survivors of institutional abuse in this State and going, not to the national children's hospital, but to a contractor to make up for the overrun and the Government's incompetence. That is what is happening here. Money from the mouths of survivors of institutional abuse is going to a contractor as opposed to going to the people it ought to go to. That is a disgrace. Did the Department ever flag that with the Minister?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That was a Government decision that was taken in 2011.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is it something that could be changed with an amendment to the 2012 Act? Could that simply be amended and that injustice corrected?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That was just putting into effect a Government decision.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Department ever recommend that the Government would amend that? I would have no confidence that Caranua had asked that but would the Department have said it is possible to change that so we could ensure that, for example, those 22, who it appears are getting zilch, get this money, if it were to go to the people who have a right to it instead of going to contractors for overspend?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

I cannot comment on the 22 cases.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, but I want to know the Department's position on an amendment.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

The agreement with the congregations following the Ryan report was that they would make a voluntary cash contribution of €110 million. That is not like the terms of the legal indemnity that was agreed in 2002; this is a voluntary contribution. The agreement at the time was that €110 million would be disbursed to survivors and any additional moneys forthcoming from the congregations would go to the national children's hospital. That was put into effect-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As I said earlier, just because it is legal does not mean it is right. It is terribly wrong.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That was the agreement, there was a Government decision and it was put into the legislation.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Department did not seek to amend that at any stage.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

No.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am finished. I am quite sickened, to be honest.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

To clarify, we are going to get our total of €110 million plus the interest, and there is no question about that. I want to confirm that we will be reviewing all cases that we received after 1 August 2018. We have communicated with them. Obviously, the way the fund is shaping up at the moment, there is a good chance-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That some will. We know about the applications Caranua received up to Tuesday, 1 August 2018. However, 378 have come in since Wednesday, 2 August 2018. I want to know how many came in that week, from the Wednesday. For example, somebody might have sent a letter from England and just because the post arrived two days late----

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

The Chairman can take it that we took a very benign view of all of that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is great. What we are asking is that Caranua demonstrates that. I want to get an indication of the timing of the 378 that have been received since, for example, how many came in during August, September or the following month. Ms Hynes said earlier that Caranua received an inquiry in the last week or two, so they are still coming in. We have already established that €8 million is probably significantly more than needed to deal with the outstanding cases. At the end of the day, we do not want to find that there are, as the case may be, 200 requests on file for funding from people who were abused, and because their application came in after Wednesday, 2 August, decades after they were abused, they were told they were a day late, a week late or a month late. That would be a travesty when the process is over. We have had many difficulties with Caranua. We do not want a situation where there are 200 people we can do nothing for. It is an issue that will not go away. While it will probably be for the Department to take up, long before the wind-up we need an assessment or report from Caranua in regard to the cases where it has been notified, and also an estimate based on its experience as to how much it will cost to settle those cases. If it is a question that the Department or somebody has to find perhaps another €5 million, €2 million, €6 million or €8 million, or perhaps no money, in the context that not just 22 cases but 378 cases have come in late, we cannot leave several hundred people out there.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Chairman, if I could-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does Caranua understand where we are coming from?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I completely understand. The survivors are people we are working with every day and we know exactly where the Chairman is coming from.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Of those 378, I know 100 have come into the Caranua offices. Many of them must be in a panic because they were a month late or whatever.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Some 64% of those have applied to Caranua previously and they have previously received funding supports from us, so it is not that all 378 have not-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If it is 64%, about 120 of those are new people.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes, and that is something we are very mindful of, all of the time. As I mentioned earlier, we do not want to be saying to a person, "You can apply for X, Y and Z", if we know we cannot meet that. It is about ensuring we are not going to a person and asking them to go to the trouble of getting quotes and doing all this work that we require to meet our audit requirements, and then coming back to them to say we have no money. That would put them in a difficult position.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are going to ask Caranua to come back with some indication. If it is planning to be gone in six months, it must be in the middle of its planning process at this stage. I am just doing the sums off the top of my head. If there are 100 people out there and the average payment to date has been €13,000, that is €1.3 million, which is within the fund we think Caranua is going to have. Maybe it cannot promise them anything but it should immediately start working on those cases in order to give people some indication. I know Caranua has its live cases to process but it is clearly going to have excess funds.

Ms Rachel Downes:

As Ms Dwyer said, we have contacted everyone. Every time somebody applies to us, we contact them, we ask them to raise exceptional needs and we ask them if there are any advocacy supports we can give. It is not the case that applications are coming in and we are not doing anything. We are definitely coming back-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Caranua should be able to give an estimate of the cost. Will it be giving priority to first-time applicants or is it irrelevant that somebody has had a previous claim?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Again, this is what needs to be reviewed.

Ms Sinéad Dwyer:

The priority is on need.

Ideally, it would be a first-time applicant but, because each application is individual-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Need is the priority.

Ms Sinéad Dwyer:

Yes.

Ms Rachel Downes:

We also need to say that we are waiting for funding. We cannot make commitments because, although we know the money is coming, it is not in our bank account.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are satisfied that the Department says that money will be coming very shortly. Caranua will soon be in a very clear position and will be able to estimate what will be needed to deal with the cases on hand and what will be available. I encourage it to get on with making its own estimate in order to avoid leaving people high and dry. It is in the interests of Caranua for this to wind up on a good note rather than a sour one.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I assure the Chair that we do that at every board meeting.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will start with the Comptroller and Auditor General before moving on to Caranua. In his opening statement regarding the 2017 statements, Mr. McCarthy drew attention, not for the first time, to "weaknesses in the Board’s control over grant payments". He cites a number of examples of such weaknesses in the context of pricing quotations, a lack of evidence of invoices or receipts and issues relating to proof of tenancy or ownership of properties. These comments relate to 2017, had Mr. McCarthy reported on similar failures in the past?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We had.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In what years?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In 2014, 2015 and 2016.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McCarthy has been reporting failures, lapses or weaknesses in the board's control for four years.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I referred to weaknesses in the implementation of the controls that had been put in place.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In his opening comments today he said, "The statement on internal control sets out the steps being taken by the Board to resolve the control weaknesses identified" for 2018. Is that correct?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, that is correct.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Were similar statements on internal control set out for 2014, 2015 or 2016?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I recall that there were indications that action would be taken. In 2014, the first year, and probably in 2015, because of delays in completing the audit, most of the subsequent year had passed before the board was in a position to address-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will deal with the examples in front of me, namely, those included in the opening statement. Mr. McCarthy has categorised them into three areas. He states, "evidence was not available in respect of 56% of the sample cases examined that required pricing quotations were received by the Board in advance of grant payment", "evidence was not available in respect of around 50% of the sample grants examined that required invoices and receipts" were received, and evidence of the required proof of property tenancy or ownership was not available in respect of 55% of housing support grants examined. Were the weaknesses in those three areas the same weaknesses that were flagged up in 2014, 2015 and 2016?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, they were the same problems.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In the statements of control set out by Caranua, were the steps it would take to deal with those weaknesses identified?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not have the statements for the previous years but my recollection is that it was indicated that steps would be taken.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will now come to Mr. O'Callaghan, who is the chair of the board. When will Caranua be winding up?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

June of next year at the latest.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Callaghan still has to be held to account because the board has a responsibility to ensure that when weaknesses are identified, they are resolved and addressed. It is not good enough that year after year we have to deal with issues of compliance with public procurement rules and failures of bodies to present accounts. If a body is receiving taxpayers' money and, having carried out his work very diligently, the Comptroller and Auditor General publishes a report identifying weaknesses in governance, and if the organisation, in its own set of internal control statements, sets out that it will take steps but fails to do so, it must be held to account. One of the places where they can be held to account is at this committee. When, over the course of four years, the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out lapses in controls in the organisation, why did the board and Mr. O'Callaghan, as chair, fail to deal with them?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I have to accept the Deputy's criticism that it looks very bad.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is not criticism; it is a fact. I am not dealing with personal opinions here.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I know.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am dealing with facts. The committee deals with factual statements and audited accounts from the Comptroller and Auditor General, not the opinion of myself, Mr. O'Callaghan, or anybody else. The facts are that, over four years, Mr. McCarthy and his team set out failures. Mr. O'Callaghan's organisation said it would remedy them, but it failed to do so. Why did it fail to remedy those weaknesses?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I will have to start off with 2014. I have reported to the committee on this before. Caranua was set up hastily. The scope of its responsibilities and its remit were not fleshed out or specified in any shape or form. Events have shown that it did not have enough staff or computer systems. It had nothing. There was pressure on us to open for business. I accept that in 2014, 2015, and 2016, our controls were not up to specification. We have to accept responsibility for that. It is not the case that we ignored any of the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We did the best we could. Our approach is that we have to be very flexible with survivors. They are a particular group and we accept-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I must interrupt Mr. O'Callaghan. I will not allow him to use the survivors as an excuse for the organisation and the board failing in their responsibilities. The survivors have nothing to do with it. There is-----

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Without the survivors, Caranua would not-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The survivors have nothing to do with failures of controls in Mr. O'Callaghan's organisation. He should not suggest that the survivors or their needs are the reason his board failed in its duty to correct the weaknesses the Comptroller and Auditor General outlined every year. At the start of this response, Mr. O'Callaghan stated that the weaknesses lay in the way in which the organisation was set up. That may well be the case. It may well be the case that it was not staffed properly and that it was set up hastily, but the reality is that it was set up and was in place and, over the course of four years, failures in controls were identified but not dealt with. Notwithstanding the failures in how it was set up, Mr. O'Callaghan has said that the board was not ignoring the Comptroller and Auditor General's opinions, but it certainly did nothing to correct the issues he identified. Why was that the case?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I am sure the Deputy will find that we improved the situation year on year. We are a lot more compliant-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. McCarthy of the same view?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not have the percentages for earlier years in all cases.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It must have been very high. If the percentages for this period were 56%, 50% and 55%, they must have been very high previously.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They were. My recollection is that the percentages were similar in previous years.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The percentages were similar. I am trying to understand why the organisation did not deal with those lapses in controls. That is what we are here to discuss. We are here to ask these questions.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

The Deputy will accept that no moneys have gone missing or unaccounted for and that our accounts are in order. We will definitely have to take responsibility for not pursuing receipts robustly.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will go back to Mr. McCarthy because I am not satisfied with this response at all. It is completely disingenuous to respond that no money was misplaced. Nobody is suggesting that money was misplaced.

Ms Rachel Downes:

May I respond?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry, but no. I will return to Mr. McCarthy. His job is to make sure that processes are robust, that money paid out is properly accounted for, and that the processes stand up to scrutiny so that he can say that money spent was spent for the purposes for which it was intended. In these areas, he is saying that the processes were not robust enough for him to say definitively what happened. Is that the case?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is not sufficient evidence that money was applied for the purposes intended.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He is not saying that money was not spent properly.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. We have not found such a situation. We could not do so because, without going to someone's house, we would not know that improvements funded by Caranua had or had not been carried out.

We are not in a position to do that.

Ms Rachel Downes:

The main area we are talking about here is the quotations received from survivors and the receipts received after payment support has been made. I completely appreciate from where the Comptroller and Auditor General audit is coming. We set out very stringent criteria. If funding support is under €1,000, we look for one quote; if it is between €1,000 and €5,000, we look for two quotes; and if it is over €5,000, we look for three quotes. Where we have challenges is the number of survivors with which we are working and the difficulties they have meeting that criteria, complying with those quotations and getting three quotes. There are a number of instances where we have made a decision that we will accept fewer quotes than we have set out in our criteria in order to facilitate that survivor availing of the service. This is constant challenge that we encounter each year.

We have constant challenges between trying to work with survivors to ensure they can avail of the services with as little difficulty as possible. It is very difficult. We are asking survivors to meet the audit recommendations, to go to three different shops to get three different quotes and come back to Caranua. They might then be told that the quotation is not correct and they need to go again. We will hold our hands up, I completely get-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms Downes saying that the Comptroller and Auditor General was unfair because he was not taking into account-----

Ms Rachel Downes:

The Comptroller and Auditor General was doing his job.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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-----that the survivors were not able to comply with the guidelines that are in place? Is that what she is saying?

Ms Rachel Downes:

The Comptroller and Auditor General's job is to challenge the outcomes of the service that we run and I do not think the Comptroller and Auditor General is being unfair at all. His office is obviously going by the guidelines that are set and the guidelines we have set in Caranua to ensure compliance but there are challenges associated with that.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I have no problem whatsoever in accepting that we are dealing with very difficult circumstances here, with individuals who were victims of institutional abuse.

Ms Rachel Downes:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In some or all cases, I understand there may be difficulties in the presentation of evidence. I am saying that, in process terms, the percentage of cases for which evidence was unavailable was not 5%, 10%, or 20%, it was 56%, 50% and 55%. That brings me to the point that Deputy Munster was making. There are a number of survivors who may get nothing.

I come to those 22 survivors who applied outside the statutory timeframes, and I accept that, but that said, these are people who were the victims of abuse. They got around to applying outside the statutory timeframes. Mr. O'Callaghan talked about weaknesses when the fund was set up in the first place. When we previously looked at this, there were issues on how the first tranche of money was spent. Perhaps mistakes were made in how that money was spent because a small number of survivors got money very quickly meaning that the pot of money available for others may not have been what it should have been. There were issues about that.

There have also been issues about lapses of controls in many areas, including the 56%, 50% and 55% to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred. We are now left in a situation where there are some people who may not get any compensation whatsoever.

Can I come back to these 22 people? Mr. O'Callaghan said that Caranua will be reviewing all of these cases. Can he tell me what that means?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

When we introduced the limit of 15,000 applicants, we did a forecast which took account of the number of cases that we had on hand. That forecast showed that we had a deficit of money even if we got the entire €110 million. That was from where we were coming. It now transpires that we are going to have a surplus which will enable us to revisit the 378 applications we received after 2 August, including the 22 that the Deputy mentioned.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How much is the surplus?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It looks as if it will be in the region of-----

Ms Rachel Downes:

We do not know that for definite yet because we are still working with a number of survivors. We do projections on a monthly basis.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Is that number of survivors more than 300?

Ms Rachel Downes:

Pardon?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

How many cases are still being looked at?

Ms Rachel Downes:

We are working with 312 people at the moment.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Are the 22 to which I referred included among that number, or are they a separate category?

Ms Rachel Downes:

They are separate.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly.

Ms Rachel Downes:

At the moment, we are working with people who had their applications in to Caranua before 1 August 2018.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Are those 312 people also dependent on the surplus money?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

No.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it that the surplus money might well be available?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am trying to figure out to what extent that money will be available.

Ms Rachel Downes:

That is the question we also need to look at. We take at face value that the 378 applications we received after 2 August are all from survivors but we have not done eligibility checks yet because we do not want to put people through that process if we were not going to have support available to them.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Ms Rachel Downes:

If we go ahead, the next phase in the process will be looking at those applications and seeing how many are eligible for Caranua services.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will offer an opinion on this. I appeal to the chair and to Ms Downes to look favourably on those 22 cases. Caranua should do what it can for them.

Ms Rachel Downes:

The Deputy needs to bear in mind that there are more than 22 cases. That total was to the end of 2018 and we have had more applications since.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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However many there might be, I think that some discretion must be used. If we need to come back and amend legislation in the Dáil, so be it, if that is necessary.

Ms Rachel Downes:

I need commitment on that before I tell people they are definitely going to get support. I cannot do that without commitment.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am saying that, if that is needed, Caranua needs to tell the Department what is required so all victims actually get the supports that they need. There is an opportunity for Caranua to make an argument here. It may or may not be able to provide the necessary support through surplus funds but, if it is unable to, there is an obligation on it to say that it cannot. The legislation would then have to be reviewed and it may be that more money is offered.

I want to come now to the issue of the overall funds. Was €110 million the total amount that came from the religious congregations to be used for supporting survivors?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

That is correct.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Under law, any surplus money from the religious congregations would then go to the national children's hospital. I thought there was also a figure of €1.38 million.

Ms Rachel Downes:

That was interest that was made on the €110 million fund.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Bill state that only the surplus money from the religious congregations should go to the national children's hospital or does it state that interest earned on the money should also go to the national children's hospital?

Ms Rachel Downes:

I will defer to the Department on that question.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

The interest accrues to the statutory fund. It does not go to the children's hospital.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Pardon?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

The €1.38 million interest that has accrued goes to the statutory fund. It does not go to the children's hospital.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It goes to the statutory fund. What is the total figure that will go to the national children's hospital?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

Some €430,000 of the final outstanding contribution from the Christian Brothers will go to the national children's hospital.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does that mean that €1.38 million of interest will go back to survivors and the operation of the fund?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I am not sure the interest is quite as much as €1.38 million.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

It is.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It is pretty near that figure.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Is it?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

The entire €111 million-odd will go to the survivors.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not disputing that, I am trying to get clarity on what will be the overall figure. The figure of €110 million was the cap on whatever money would come in from the religious institutions. That is to be spent on Caranua, supporting the survivors and their running costs, I imagine.

Ms Aoife Conduit:

That is right.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Do we now have €110 million plus the €1.38 million in interest?

Ms Aoife Conduit:

Yes.

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

The €1.38 million is interest that was earned before Caranua was established so that money was transferred to Caranua on day one. Caranua already has that money.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to establish if that €1.38 million is separate from the €110 million.

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

It is. The maximum amount that Caranua will have available to it is €111.38 million.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

Anything over the €110 million goes to the children's hospital and that includes the contributions from the Christian Brothers.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the money from the religious congregations.

Mr. Aongus Ó hAonghusa:

That is correct.