Mr. Andy Pike:

In answer to Senator Gallagher's question around holiday pay and sick pay, it is probably worth pointing out that what Fórsa is seeking is application of the same terms to non-teaching staff as apply to everyone else in a board of management school. It is really just making sure there is a level playing field because teachers employed in those schools are paid and have conditions of service determined by national circulars from the Department of Education and Skills. What we are seeking is the extension of the system to non-teaching staff. A basic point of fairness is where we start from.

On Senator Ruane's question about the effect of some of these issues on the day-to-day running of a school, there are some governance problems because school secretaries are now involved in complex areas of work that are at the very heart of the administration of the school system. Unlike teaching colleagues, there really is no governance around their employment as would apply to public servants. If one is a public servant working for a Department or an organisation that has a code of ethics or a code of standards, that goes alongside the benefits of public service status. School secretaries and caretakers would be bound by the local contract of employment but they are not in the governance tent in same way as other public servants who are dealing with issues like bank lodgments and audit queries, which regularly crop up as issues of concern in the public service. There is an issue around governance and who is exposed to what risk on both sides of the employment relationship.

One of the other effects is that people do resent having to commence work on new projects, such as the post-primary online database, P-POD, and the junior cycle profile of achievement in certain schools, alongside teaching colleagues. This is a new development. They are not public servants themselves and they are administering a lot of this and participating in working groups in Marlborough Street with the Department on this issue, as is Maria Dunne, who is here today and who is chair of our school secretaries branch. They are good enough to do all of that, yet they are not good enough to get holiday pay or be considered as a public servant. It causes something of an atmosphere but the main thing is it causes embarrassment to school secretaries. When waving goodbye at the end of summer term to colleagues, invariably, the school secretary is not going on holiday but is going down to the employment office to sign on.

The other point is that this is hidden. Parents are not aware that the person who rings them up to say their child has a cold, or has fallen down and needs to be collected - the face of the school to many parents - is not a public servant and does not have the same status as everyone else who works in the school, although it is a problem for caretakers as well.

We could spend a lot of time talking about conditions of service for SNAs. On the NCSE review, we would not criticise the Department for lack of engagement with Fórsa or SNAs as a staff group because the Cabinet decision on implementing some of those recommendations was only made last week, and it is only when the Cabinet decision has been made that we have been told engagement can start.

We would criticise the NCSE very strongly for conducting the biggest review of the role of the SNA since the scheme was introduced without talking to any SNAs themselves. They have not been involved in any of the consideration around the 14 recommendations. The issue of the 72 hours is worse in terms of secondary school SNAs having to be onsite in June, when there is no teaching and no work for them, which is a separate problem. Some of the other issues around the 72 hours could perhaps be addressed through a new role for SNAs, which is what the NCSE review suggests in terms of a focus on inclusion and a national training programme. If there are problems around the 72 hours not being used properly, there is a national training programme whereby the training can be offset against the 72 hours. We are of a view that we need to have a look at that again in the context of the "what happens next" piece around the NCSE review.

The chairman referred to recruitment difficulties. The labour market is tightening and employers are finding it more difficult to recruit as the economy continues to improve. Notwithstanding what might happen over the water in a few weeks or, hopefully, a few months, that process is going to continue and schools will find it difficult to recruit unless they can offer things like year-round employment, some form of sick pay and some form of paid holidays.

Our estimate of an audit is that 98% or 99% of school secretaries are women. This would not necessarily be happening if there was a large group of well-organised male employees. It certainly is a gendered issue. I would not go so far as to say it is unlawful discrimination but it is very unfair treatment of a group of women workers.