Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 3 April 2019

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government

Update on the National Emergency Co-ordination Group: Discussion

Mr. Seán Hogan:

I will respond to the question about radiology first. I have a keen personal interest in the issue of nuclear safety and so on. I would go so far as to say the system we have in place now derives from our experience of the national emergency plan for nuclear accidents and its development. The idea of a national emergency co-ordination group first emerged from this national emergency plan. That became part of our Department's remit at a certain stage. The national emergency co-ordination centre was put in place at the request of Ms Renee Dempsey from our Department. She was the principal officer at the time dealing with the national emergency plan for nuclear accidents. We have strong links in this regard and we undertook a review of the plan. It was recently passed to our colleagues in the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and the EPA. We work very closely with the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, RPII, as it was formerly titled, and which is part of the EPA now, on the issue of radiological protection. We have our own guidance on dealing with radiological emergencies. One guide is developed under the national steering group for major emergency management. There is a guide for the principal emergency services in dealing with such incidents should a nuclear event occur. Our colleagues in the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, I have no doubt, would convene a lead Department, as we do for severe weather events. In March 2011, when the Fukushima nuclear disaster occurred, we used the National Emergency Co-ordination Group to deal with issues arising. Despite the event occurring on the far side of the world, there were issues for us here that we needed to deal with at the time. As I said, I have strong and fond memories of this work, and much of what I have learned I learned from the national emergency plan for nuclear accidents and the experiences arising from it. Some of them were very bad experiences in the early days but they certainly provided the basis for what we have now.

I refer to Deputy Boyd Barrett's questions about fire services, specifically Dublin fire services, and the fleet there being substandard compared with European standards. He referred to alarming stories and mentioned the Deloitte report undertaken on procurement. I am aware of some of the comments made on this because they were made publicly. I do not necessarily agree with them. Everything we do in our field we do for a particular reason. We ask people who work in the fire services and other emergency services to do a difficult and sometimes dirty and dangerous job on behalf of society. Everything we do to co-ordinate and develop the service is designed to support these people in undertaking these roles. This is the main motivator of the people with whom I work closely and the people who lead the fire service across the country. We have our 218 fire stations and they typically respond to approximately 30,000 incidents per year, or perhaps slightly fewer. The number of incidents they attend is falling. There is a steady downward trend in this regard. As I said, our service and all the issues and aspects of it are described in the various fire services reports that have been done over the years.

Regarding procurement of fire engines, our Department supports local authorities in the purchase of fire engines. The typical fire engine that can be seen driving around is called a class B fire engine and would typically cost somewhere between €350,000 and €400,000. There is a programme in place. I do not have exact figures for Deputy Boyd Barrett but I would suggest that under each of the programmes relating to the Dublin fire service, there would typically be 20 front-line fire appliances in Dublin. The service would get three in each of the programmes and would have got three in each of the past two programmes. We are part of an Office of Government Procurement, OGP, framework in place for the procurement of fire engines. Specialist fire appliances such as turntable ladders are extremely expensive not just to purchase but also to maintain and operate, depending on the crewing arrangement. They are infrequently used. Firefighting in high-rise buildings is generally done from the interior now, as distinct from the exterior.

We have a fleet of aerial appliances used for firefighting. I would not have information on particular appliances in Dublin at present. Normally, there would be two aerial appliances in Dublin, and probably two spares available if needed. One does not just wait for these appliances to break down. The hydraulics in them are subject to routine maintenance problems so they are taken off the run routinely. They are like aircraft so they are taken off the run routinely, serviced and maintained.

With regard to stories about appliances and difficulties with drivers, Dublin Fire Brigade will manage its own side. I would not be aware of the detail of what goes on. Management difficulties and issues sometimes arise in fire services, not just in Dublin but right across the country, but we are not involved directly in those.

We use such grants as we have available to support the priorities of the authorities themselves in terms of what they want to purchase. We do not purchase everything everybody wants. Authorities need to prioritise periodically what they want to buy. We rely on the judgment of the management teams of Dublin Fire Brigade and Dublin City Council regarding their priorities for their area.