Mr. Joseph Musgrave:

I agree with Ms Deane's comments. That is why we must grapple with the technicalities. On the Senator's point about HSE's cost, I would reiterate that other than FOI requests, I do not see how we can get the information. They have not met with my organisation or non-profits since April which for an operational forum design to get to the heart of a range of issues is unacceptable.

I also would not over-egg the agency recruitment of staff but it does go to the heart of the conflict of interest in the commission of care and hiring staff. I have been told by members that packages seem to be launched almost on a pilot basis in some areas and once the HSE establishes that the packages can be run regularly, they then hire staff which leaves my members and others in a difficult situation, perhaps having to let go carers if they cannot find other work for them. While the specific issue of the recruitment of staff may not be the most burning issue, the conflict of interest is one to which we must return.

As Mr. Dunne noted, weekends and bank holiday work is something my members are required to do, and do provide. They provide 24 hour care. I am aware from my own family circumstances of people who are on call having to leave at all hours from family functions to provide care. I have seen this in action.

To get people into home care in the workforce will take a combination of capacity building and improving conditions. HCCI submitted to the Economic Migration Policy Unit a proposal to allow non-EEA workers into the country. We could do this and be innovative in how we do so. We could take an approach where we look at where capacity is low in each CHO and establish how many more staff we need and their availability. The mechanism to do that does not exist and, even if we did have it, we do not have the tools to increase the workforce. That is what we are seeking. Following Mr. McLoughlin's point, we need a step change in how we view the workforce, and career path and professionalisation is key to this.

On capacity, HCCI is working on a submission to the forum for social protection. The social protection system is not currently designed for careworkers. Instead of a tapering system where it is possible to work a certain number of hours and keep entitlements, it is calculated by day. If someone provides a block of hours of much-needed care, and wants to do this, they will be penalised by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection which will tell them they cannot have their entitlement for that day. I am encouraged by the early signs that the Department is wiling to listen but I must work with others on a submission that puts the case, and I hope to get the committee members' support on that. That would release more capacity and more people who want to provide care, but are currently penalised.

Commissioning is very important in this. It is difficult to provide meaningful work for carers. Part of this is rostering where, as Mr. Crotty noted, one can provide care in what would be a sensible way. One would not send a delivery man half way around an area, he would be sent on a route. I am not suggesting we send people on routes but if we had a more holistic system and planned more effectively we could give carers a better quality of life and improve the quality of their work.