Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the meeting but I was watching on the monitor. I thank the witnesses for appearing before us this morning. My questions are pretty much directed at all of the witnesses. My first question concerns rates of pay.

We know the rates of pay that are paid to home help carers directly employed by the HSE. I am curious to know the average rate of pay for home carers. I think pay and conditions are central to the recruitment issue to which the witnesses have alluded.

The average number of hours per person is going down but the number of hours allocated is going up. The Minister for Health often loudly proclaims the percentage increase in the number of home help hours but, in real life, people come into my clinics saying they cannot get home help hours. There is a disconnect there.

Ms Dean mentioned calls that last only 30 minutes. Have the witnesses encountered a 15-minute call? I have heard of that happening and it shocks me. Collectively, those agents who provide home care should be telling the HSE, with one voice, that there is a minimum standard and number of minutes that should apply. The minimum should be an hour. Half an hour is not right but 15 minutes is beyond even that. I have heard of that, so perhaps the witnesses could comment.

Mr. Dunne mentioned that it is possible to game the numbers in the tender process. I would like him to elaborate on that because we need more information about that.

I ask the witnesses individually if they would subscribe to a national minimum standard in terms and conditions. To put my cards on the table, some of the witnesses may be aware of the fact that I used to represent home helps in the HSE and voluntary sectors, though regrettably not so much in the private sector. There may have been improvements in that since I moved on. One issue that was raised by our members was about stability. I could never get my head around the fact that the work was there and there was a demand for the service and yet the contract could not reflect that. I believe that, if there was standardisation in terms and conditions, a standard minimum rate of pay and standardised contract, we would not have the issue with recruitment because very often when people leave the home care sector it is not to go to jobs with a dissimilar rate of pay. The rates are often very similar but the difference is stability. In the new job, one might work on a changing shift pattern but would work for only eight hours a day. They are some of the most flexible workers in the workforce, as both I and the witnesses know. They are looking only for stability of income and the capacity to plan in a small way. Oftentimes carers leave for shift work so the awkward times are not the problem, it is more being able to know how much work they will have. I could never understand why the HSE would not commit to that contract in the context of rising demand. I would be interested to know the witnesses' views on a standardised contract and guaranteed minimum numbers of hours, given we know there will be an increase in the demand for home care.

Mr. McLoughlin mentioned that funding for the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland, ASI, over a long number of years, had gone from €11 million to €11.2 million. Perhaps the other organisations might be in a position to comment on their funding, or their contracts with the HSE and what direction that is going in because it does not seem to be moving very fast. I would be interested to know that.

Finally, is there a role for HIQA, or a similar agency, in providing the regulation? We know that regulation is very tricky for any lone worker who deals with the public. Do the witnesses see a role for HIQA in bringing in that regulation? Do they see a role for another agency? I see the difficulty with the HSE being the regulator and the commissioner and provider of services. That would cause some issues. HIQA is already in place, so do the witnesses see its remit expanding, or do they think that there might be a role for another body?