Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the officials from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment: Mr. Matthew Collins, assistant secretary, natural resources and waste policy; and Mr. Eoin Deegan, assistant principal. We also have witnesses from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA: Dr. Tom Ryan, director, office of environmental enforcement; Ms. Mary Gurrie, programme manager; and Mr. Pat Byrne, senior inspector.

Before we begin, I have to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also wish to advise the witnesses that any submission or opening statement made to the committee will be published on the committee's website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

The role of the Minister is to provide a comprehensive legislative and policy framework through which the relevant regulatory bodies, such as local authorities and the EPA, operate. Waste management planning, including with regard to infrastructure provision, is the responsibility of local authorities under Part II of the Waste Management Act 1996, as amended. It is also important to recognise that, under section 60(3) of that Act, the Minister is precluded from exercising any power or control in relation to the performance, in specific cases, by a local authority of their statutory functions under the Act.

National waste policy is set out in the policy document, A Resource Opportunity. European, national and regional waste policy is predicated on the waste hierarchy, as set out in the waste framework directive. Under the waste hierarchy the prevention, preparation for reuse, recycling and recovery of waste is preferred, in that order, to the disposal or placing in landfill of waste. Ireland’s waste management practices, infrastructure and regulation have improved radically over the past 20 years. Since 2012, there has been a clear Government policy focus on waste as a resource, and the reduction in the use of landfill. Ireland has made significant progress in improving its recycling and recovery rates and we are now among the top performing EU countries.

The share of managed municipal solid waste, MSW, that is disposed in landfill fell from 41% in 2012 to 26% in 2016. That means that about three quarters of MSW was recycled, used as a fuel or as cover material, instead of going to landfill. More residual waste is now used as a fuel, through energy recovery, than is disposed of in landfill. There are now only four landfills actively accepting municipal wastes in the State; whereas 18 landfills accepted waste in 2012 and 89 landfills were accepting waste in 1995. Similarly, almost 1.5 million tonnes of MSW were placed in landfill as recently as 2010. By 2016, this amount had been more than halved, to approximately 700,000 tonnes.

Thermal recovery activities sit on the recovery tier of the waste hierarchy and have a role to play in reducing our dependence on the disposal of waste to landfill. Thermal recovery activities include waste to energy, co-incineration, pyrolysis and gasification, where the principal use of waste is as a fuel to generate energy. The most recent iteration of regional waste management plans set out how waste generated will be managed over the time period 2015 to 2021, in line with national and EU waste management policy. These regional plans support the development of up to 300,000 tonnes of additional thermal recovery capacity nationally, which includes waste to energy, out to 2030. This figure was determined, first, to ensure that there is adequate and competitive treatment capacity in the market, and second, to ensure the State’s self-sufficiency requirements for the recovery of municipal waste are met. Furthermore, that level of thermal recovery capacity takes account of the requirement to achieve a recycling rate of municipal waste in excess of 60% by 2030, which is in line with new EU recycling targets for MSW.

Good waste management planning aims to maximise prevention and recycling and minimise the quantity of residual waste arising. It also recognises the need for sustainable infrastructure to deal with residual waste that we cannot prevent or recycle, as we move away from the less sustainable than the use of landfill.

The European Commission published a communication on the role of waste to energy in the circular economy in January 2017. The Commission acknowledged that the transition towards a circular economy requires striking the right balance when it comes to waste-to-energy capacity for the treatment of non-recyclable waste. The communication advised that waste-to-energy processes can play a role in the transition to a circular economy provided that the EU waste hierarchy is used as a guiding principle, as is the case in national and regional waste management policy in Ireland.

Dr. Tom Ryan:

I thank the Chairman for inviting the EPA to contribute to a discussion on waste policy and incineration and on the role of the agency. I am joined by Mary Gurrie, programme manager, and Patrick Byrne, senior inspector.

We represent the leadership team in environmental enforcement in the EPA. We will be pleased to address any questions committee members may have on the EPA's role.

As the committee is aware, the EPA is an independent statutory body, established under the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992. We have a wide range of responsibilities, including the regulation of large-scale industrial and waste facilities. There are just over 800 such facilities licensed by the EPA.

The EPA's specific role in the regulation of the waste sector includes authorisation through licensing and the enforcement of licences issued. There are 207 waste activities licensed by the EPA, including landfill sites, the larger waste transfer stations, incinerators and other activities such as compost facilities. The EPA attaches conditions to each licence to ensure that, properly operated, the activity will not cause environmental pollution.

As the focus of this session is incineration, the committee will be interested to note there are two commercial waste incinerator facilities licensed by the EPA that accept municipal waste. In addition, there are nine facilities in the pharmaceutical manufacturing sector that are licensed to operated hazardous waste incinerators for the treatment of waste generated by their facilities. Three cement production facilities are licensed to co-incinerate certain waste material as alternative fuels. A summary of the licence details of each of these plants is provided in our written submission for the information of the committee.

The two incinerators licensed to accept municipal waste are the Indaver facility in Carranstown, County Meath, which commenced operations in 2011 and is authorised to accept 235,000 tonnes of residual waste per annum, and the Dublin Waste to Energy incinerator in Poolbeg, which commenced operations in 2017 and is authorised to accept 600,000 tonnes of waste per annum. The licences for both incinerators contain more than 100 conditions to control the environmental aspects of the activity, including the quantities and types of waste that may be accepted, the control and abatement infrastructure required to reduce emissions and limit values for air, water and noise emissions. While the licenceholders are responsible for complying with the licence conditions, the EPA enforces the conditions through an annual programme of inspections, environmental monitoring and assessment, the identification of non-compliance and, where appropriate, the prosecution of non-compliant operators. In this context, it can be noted the EPA successfully prosecuted Dublin Waste to Energy for breach of licence conditions relating to instant notification in 2017.

Both facilities are required to monitor emissions to atmosphere for a range of parameters, including continuous dioxin sampling and analysis, which is reported fortnightly. In addition, the EPA conducts its own independent air emissions monitoring of the facilities. All monitoring results over the past two years for both facilities have been compliant with the licence conditions.

The EPA is aware of the public concerns regarding emissions from the Poolbeg facility in particular. For additional public assurance and information, the EPA installed an ambient air quality monitoring station in Ringsend in July 2017. Real-time monitoring results are available on the EPA website. Results to date show that the air quality recorded in Ringsend is compliant with national air quality standards and is consistent with air quality elsewhere in Dublin.

I assure the committee that the EPA continues to closely monitor operations at all incineration facilities to ensure a high level of environmental protection. I thank committee members for their attention.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I have some brief questions before I call on members. Will Dr. Ryan expand on why the EPA classified the incident at Poolbeg on 7 June last year as a lime release when, in fact, it was a release of flue gas treatment residue, which included dioxins and heavy metals and not just lime? My next question, on the climate action fund, is for the Department and the EPA. Funding was given to a district heating system as part of the climate action fund in the Dublin area. Is it a pilot project? Will we see district heating systems rolled out?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

On the climate action fund, my understanding is that it is not a pilot fund. The Dublin Waste to Energy facility built in Poolbeg was integrated so it could accommodate district heating being developed in the local area, and it is to support that development that an allocation has been made from the fund. It will be a contribution towards the cost of that district heating. It is for an operational district heating system in the new area that will be developed in that part of the south dockland area.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Will future projects be rolled out through the climate action fund? Is part of the plan to look at other possibilities?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

A lot of it will depend on whether there is a suitable facility, such as the Dublin Waste to Energy facility, close to a residential area that can use the heat being generated. The facility already produces power that goes into the grid but for the heat we need to have a community nearby to benefit from it. It would probably depend on the actual project being proposed. The Dublin project is probably the best case in Ireland given that it is built within a city, which would not be unusual in a European context.

Dr. Tom Ryan:

I acknowledge there was an incident at the plant last year. It involved one of the abatement filter systems that uses lime to clean the exhaust emissions. There was a breach of the hatches in the system and a spill of the lime that contained some of the substances filtered in the exhaust. They were contained within the facility, treated as hazardous waste, dealt with in that manner and exported for disposal.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. My first question is for Mr. Collins on the legislation and the role of the Minister. He stated the Minister's role is to provide a comprehensive legislative and policy framework but then the Minister is precluded from exercising any power or control with regard to the performance of local authorities and their functions. It is 22 years since the legislation was introduced. Does Mr. Collins believe that lack of control or power from which the Minister suffers under the legislation has been good or bad? Why was it introduced? It strikes me that the most controversial move after the introduction of the legislation was the building of the incinerator in Ringsend, which was strongly opposed by the local community, local councillors and the council in general. I was a councillor and three times we voted against it going ahead, rightly or wrongly. It meant we had no recourse to Parliament to ask whether it could do something about it. Instead, the city manager made the decision, first under John Tierney and later under the current regime in Dublin City Council. The power the Minister has to listen to the democratic wishes of the people was totally removed. I assume Mr. Collins will say it is a good thing that we have an incinerator up and running and working and that the people did not get their way. Does he not think there is a democratic deficit in how waste management policy is structured? I will come back to another reason I believe it does not just apply to incineration.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

As for the role of the Minister under the legislation, the legislation is set by the Oireachtas and that is what the Minister operates under. The Minister does not have a role in stating what are the EPA's functions and the local authority's functions. From an environmental perspective, the establishment of the EPA as an independent agency was a foundation stone of environmental protection in Ireland. It is probably one of the strengths of the system that the EPA is an independent agency that is able to go about assessing, issuing and enforcing the licence requirements under European legislation. I am not sure but it might be a requirement of the European legislation to have this independence.

The roles of the local authority system and of the Minister are established under legislation. The executive functions are set by the Oireachtas in the Waste Management Act and that provides for the statutory responsibility of the local authorities to carry out certain functions. The Minister's role under the legislation is to provide the policy framework and to bring forward legislative proposals. It derives from the Oireachtas as the Parliament itself established that framework for decision making and enforcement.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I understand that Parliament passes the legislation but my question is whether, 22 years after it was passed, Mr. Collins sees it as a help or a hindrance that the Minister has no power or control regarding the performance of the EPA or the local authorities in respect of this.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

It is a strength of the system that the EPA has clear independent powers to carry out its functions.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is it a strength that the Minister has no control or power over it?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

It would not be appropriate for a Minister to have control over an independent agency. That is the issue with licensing.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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However, there is no accountability in that case, is there?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

We are here today to answer any questions.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is one question. It extends to another one, and it is close to my home. On my doorstep there is a site belonging to Thorntons Recycling, which has the contract for all the brown bins in all the hospitals, colleges and McDonalds branches in the greater Dublin area. A large amount of brown bin content is going to that site, which is no more than a quarter of a kilometre away from one of the most densely populated working-class areas in Dublin. Thorntons Recycling processes all of the rotten, smelly food in that plant. It bales it and brings it to a site in County Meath. It has been a bone of contention for the residents of Ballyfermot for a long time and probably once a week, I have to email the EPA to complain about the smells, either on my behalf or on behalf of other residents. It depends on which way the wind blows. Fair play to the EPA it always responds to me quickly to say it is sending out an inspector, but by the time an inspector arrives the smell is usually gone. The inspectors seldom find odours. There was a reference earlier to a prosecution of Covanta. Thorntons Recycling has been prosecuted on several occasions but the maximum fine that can be imposed on the company is €3,000, which is like lunch money for a company that is making so much profit. Does Mr. Collins, as a representative of the Department, think there is a weakness in the legislation both in the Minister not having oversight and the lack of penalties for companies that breach the parameters set down by the EPA?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

It is governed by both the planning and environmental legislation. The complaint is that events have happened that local residents are unhappy about-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The EPA deals with the complaints but the maximum penalty the company suffers for breaching the odour bar set for it is €3,000. The company has been in court two or three times and it has paid the fines, but it is like lunch or pocket money for the company compared with the profits it makes and the money it saves on diesel, location of workers and so forth by being on the doorstep of a big working-class estate such as Ballyfermot. My argument is that it should not be there. It can operate where it wishes but not on the doorstep of an area that is densely populated by families, children and old people who have chronic chest and other illnesses.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

I can understand that local residents would have concerns, but the facility would only be there if it has met all environmental and planning legal requirements, has planning permission to be there and the proper authorisations for whatever activities are taking place. It is not that the activity is taking place in an uncontrolled manner. It is operating within a regulated framework. I will have to check the details relating to the fines. We are governed by separate legislation that deals with fines and penalties and what can be imposed by a court. That would be dependent on the nature and class of the offence that has occurred. We operate under that framework in terms of legislation. I presume the fines could be higher depending on the severity but that is related to what the judge has determined is the appropriate level of fine for the offence that is being prosecuted.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Chairman, I wish to put my question to the representatives of the EPA as it has not been answered. Do they think the penalty is strong enough to prevent this type of breach of regulations? I do not believe it is. That is one question for the EPA, but I have a few more questions for Mr. Collins about the incinerator. He describes how the level of-----

Mr. Matthew Collins:

The reason I say it depends on the nature of the offence is that it could go from what would be considered a minor offence with a class A fine to, depending on the event that occurred and the nature of the prosecution, a fine of up to €15 million. Imprisonment is also available. Again, these would always be related to the nature of the offence that the prosecution has succeeded in prosecuting.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I did not realise there was the capacity to fine companies so much. Obviously, it is up to judges to make that decision. I did not realise that. I was told by the city manager that the maximum a company could be fined is €3,000.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

If it is a summary conviction and depending on what the offence is, that is the fine applied. Again, however, there is a maximum of up to €15 million and ten years in prison-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Somebody would probably have to be killed or die from a disease.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

It is the nature of the prosecution in the case that is taken.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I will put the same question to the EPA, but I also have questions about the incinerator. I am representing people in the Ringsend area who have asked me to say that people living around Dublin Bay often see the smoke coming out of the chimneys and are concerned about its condition. It is thick, dense and incessant. They worry about what pollutants are going into the air they are breathing. What guarantees can we give them, beyond what has been said here? Is it similar to the situation with Thorntons Recycling whereby if somebody makes a complaint an inspector is sent, or are there EPA people on site constantly monitoring what happens in the incinerator?

In addition, there is residual waste from incineration. I understand a dump in Drehid, County Kildare, was recently given planning permission to take that waste. Can the witnesses describe how toxic, dangerous, safe or otherwise it is and what happens to it? Does it suffer if there is extreme rainfall or bad winds? How is all that managed? I am asking many questions but I represent ordinary people who want to know this stuff and who do not appear to understand or have a communications or consultation method that reassures them that all is well.

Dr. Tom Ryan:

I will start with dealing with complaints and fines. The EPA has no control over the fines set in the legislation and imposed by the Judiciary. Our general enforcement approach has been to respond quickly to complaints about sites. We send out an inspector to make an assessment and if we can impose some requirement on the licensee to carry out abatement immediately or after a while, we find that to be the quickest and most effective way to get the best environmental outcome and try to improve the quality of the environment or to abate the nuisance that has been reported to us, if it is verified. That is our general stance in dealing with these matters. However, we take prosecutions where and when we consider it appropriate, and we have a record of doing that.

Turning to the emissions from the incinerator plant in Poolbeg, we are all familiar with the white clouds that emerge.

The process within the facility is that waste of a certain prescribed type is brought into the plant, burnt on the incinerator grate and the exhaust fumes are taken through a series of abatement measures that scrub out the pollutants and clean the exhaust air with the best available techniques. The residual that goes out through the stack is water vapour and small quantities of whatever residual materials have come through the system. All our measurements on and off site show that any residual materials coming through over the past couple of years have been within safe environmental limits. The plumes that are seen are to a large extent water vapour. We continually monitor that. The monitoring of the emissions is a defence in depth where there is monitoring on site by the operator, by us and off-site ambient monitoring by the EPA.

With regard to our presence on site it is a facility that we visit very frequently, this year alone we have been there 13 times. It is a site that we pay particular attention to.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Thirteen times out of 365 days in the year does not sound like an awful lot to me. I assume it works every day.

Dr. Tom Ryan:

The primary responsibility for the safe operation of the facility is the operator. We take a risk-based approach to our regulatory oversight. That number of visits this year we would consider to be appropriate to the issues raised with us or that we identified during the year.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The tone of the presentations is that we are getting to grips with our waste, we are one of the best recyclers, the best at waste reduction in Europe, landfill is becoming a thing of the past etc. The tonnage, 600,000 tonnes in Ringsend and 250,000 in County Meath, going through waste to energy sounds like good news. If we are so good at reducing waste why do we need more incinerators, such as the application for one in Ringaskiddy and there is talk of another one in Limerick? Does Mr. Ryan think they should be given permission to build? If we are so good at reducing and getting such great results where will all this waste come from to keep all those incinerators going?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

Incineration is widely accepted in Europe and the European Commission has said that incineration can have an appropriate role in the circular economy. It is one of the tools to achieving our goals in the circular economy. For example, the EU has recently adopted a new legally binding target, which will apply to Ireland, that only a maximum of 10% of municipal waste should go to landfill by 2030. We are continuing to reduce the amount of material that will be going to landfill. That is in line with the waste hierarchy which sets landfill as the least preferable option. Ahead of that there is recovery, where waste to energy facilities would sit. In that context there is a role for incineration in helping us achieve our targets and to move further up the waste hierarchy. My understanding is that the regional waste plans developed by the local authorities the Deputy referred to have used assumptions of achieving the new recycling targets for 2030. They have identified an additional need for further incineration and waste to energy facilities in Ireland for the full attainment of those targets in line with the circular economy package. On the one hand, we want to move to 10% landfill, a dramatic reduction in the material going to landfill and on the other, we want to achieve the 70% recycling target for packaging as well as the recycling targets for municipal landfill as well. Those assumptions are built into the regional waste plans. The rationale is that even meeting those goals, there is still an additional requirement for a thermal treatment in the Irish system.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I understand the argument for Poolbeg as per what Mr. Collins has laid out here but additional thermal treatment does not make sense. We are trying to reduce plastic, to recycle more, we already use Poolbeg and Meath, why do we need more waste incineration in the country? If Mr. Collins cannot answer that and it is part of the local authorities' plan we should have them in here to question them about their plan and where they get these assumptions from.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

I also mentioned their continued reduction in landfill. We are continuing to eliminate and minimise all landfill. Some of the material from municipal waste is not to go to landfill in the future and thermal treatment is higher up the waste hierarchy, is completely in line with EU waste policy and has been endorsed by the European Commission. That is why we need more thermal treatment, so that we do not rely on landfills around the country.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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What is the process for the incinerator in Ringaskiddy? I take it has not been licensed by the EPA yet as it has not been built. Dr. Ryan mentioned there were more than 100 conditions for Poolbeg. Were they planning conditions or conditions coming from the EPA? What is the process for getting the licence? Is it a public process, does it take submissions, is it an individual process between the company and the EPA and where do things such as a district heat system come into that project? Are they considered at that stage or the planning stage?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

As we understand it from the planning process Ringaskiddy has planning permission which is in judicial review at the moment. We do not have any application for consideration but I can talk generally about the process. There would be an application to us, that is a very public process where there is a role for public participation and submissions. The process is set down in legislation. Any plant would have to comply with European standards and best available techniques. There is an environmental impact assessment where required. All submissions from the public would be taken into account. This is standard practice, different legislation applies and there is specific legislation on incineration.

If any application like this is granted it is granted on the basis of conditions which are aimed at the protection of the environment and set against the best available European technology, techniques and local situation is taken into account. All this is focused on protection of the environment and safe operation of the plant.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I take it the conditions the EPA would lay down would be environmental conditions. In Poolbeg there was a reference to heat and the use of heat afterwards. Was that a planning condition or was it an afterthought? Where did that come into the remit?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

As I understand it that was in the planning process.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for missing the presentations. I think I got the gist of it. Deputy Smith mentioned the Drehid landfill which is in my constituency of north Kildare, or it was until the boundary changed but it is still local to me.

One of the issues regarding it is the haulage routes. The landfill site is one issue but the haulage routes are problematic because a significant volume of HGVs and trucks use local backroads and travel through the towns of Sallins, Clane and Prosperous to approach the facility. When planning permission was granted there were four or more haulage routes identified to access the facility but I understand only two of those are being used. All the haulage routes are on the local rural roads. The county council has done its best to reinforce those roads and do some road upgrades but they are still not suitable for that volume of truck traffic. It occurs to me there might be another route. There is the Edenderry Road which passed through Kilshanroe. That might be an option to approach the back of the Drehid facility. It would be a higher class road and it might be a more appropriate avenue to access the plant. The representatives might comment on that suggestion or they might want to consider it and communicate with me later.

The other issue relates to the hierarchy of planning. I was involved in a local matter recently, which was a potential EPA issue. There was confusion about it and I attended a meeting of the county council. There is a hierarchy in terms of the waste permits, waste licences and the granting of planning permission. A group of disgruntled residents had an issue with a particular site, and the matter could have been referred to one or three bodies or none of them, in terms of whether it was an EPA issue, a county council environment issue or a county council planning issue or, arguably, a fourth body, An Bord Pleanála, depending on the nature of the facility. I do not know if there are any legislative or other reforms considered in that area. It seems the county council licensed the smaller ones, namely the waste permits, and that the EPA licensed the more significant ones. I am not sure what level of co-operation exists. A question raised at that meeting was whether, if the council had a concern, it would pass it on to the EPA. Is there communication to and fro regarding those types of sites or is there a silo approach to them? How does the process work currently? Is it cumbersome? Do issues arise? Are there any plans to consider streamlining or addressing that issue?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does Dr. Ryan want to respond to that first?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

I will ask my colleague, Ms Gurrie, to address that.

Ms Mary Gurrie:

Regarding the roads, that is a matter for planning. The EPA licence only covers the site, not the surrounding roads.

In terms of the hierarchy, as the Deputy said, the planning consent process is completely separate from the waste regulation process. There are two tiers, namely, the waste facility permits which are issued and enforced by the local authority and, for specified activities, an EPA licence is required. The responsibility for enforcement for a waste permit sits with the local authority but considerable work is being done on improving local authority enforcement and regional waste enforcement lead authorities have been set up. Dublin City Council would be the relevant one to deal with the east midlands. The EPA chairs the NIECE network, which is the network for the enforcement of all environmental regulators. There is support and assistance available to try to improve it. The EPA has a role in the oversight of the statutory performance of local authorities. If somebody felt that a local authority was not conducting its statutory duties to enforce a licence, they could make a complaint to the EPA and we would follow up to check if the local authority has taken the necessary action to examine the matter. There is considerable work involved in terms of co-operation and statutory oversight.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Eamon Ryan.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I apologise for arriving late but I was at an earlier meeting. I read the presentation and I am glad I have an opportunity to ask some brief questions. My first question relates to the Poolbeg incinerator. I understand a recent EPA inspection showed that some of the material which was used in the incinerator should not have been used in that it came from a two-bin - rather than a three-bin - collection area. In other words, there is a concern that such practice will undermine our ability to recycle and develop a sustainable waste stream system. I understand in that inspection there was evidence that material had been returned from the site as inappropriate but that the logging, recording of and accounting for what happened there was not appropriate. Can Dr. Ryan confirm if there was an EPA inspection in that regard and, if so, what sanctions were applied to the company?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

Yes, I can confirm that we were on-site. We observed the waste issue and it is currently under investigation. There is an open non-compliance investigation on that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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How many infringements have been recorded in that facility since it started operations?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can ask another question while they try to find that information.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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An incident occurred in the early stages of its operations when workers were exposed to ammonia, if I recall rightly, within the site which they were painting from an explosion from one of the values. I cannot remember the full technical details. We asked questions about that almost two years ago and sought to bring in the company and the EPA but we have not heard anything further. What was the outcome of the that incident as well as other infringements?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

I will take that question. We discussed that earlier. The issue was that the seals on one of the hatches of the filtration system were not appropriately installed which led to a breach of the hatch and a spill of lime into the facility. This was in 2017. Lime is used as part of the cleaning process. That was contained within the facility and we carried out an investigation. There were workers in the vicinity as well. The Health and Safety Authority investigated the matter from a health and safety perspective and we produced a report following the investigation, which is on our website.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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What were the consequences for the company of that breach of safety, the fact that the valves were in the wrong place or that the weldings were not right?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

It was shut down for a significant period until it remediated the technical issues. It did not commence operations again until we were satisfied that all the issues that were identified as a result of the investigation were addressed.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No fine was imposed.

Dr. Tom Ryan:

For the particular lime spill incident, not directly. No.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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How many other incidents of breaches of compliance or conditions of operation were there?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

We are just looking for the numbers. We have prosecuted that facility for breaches of conditions. We successfully prosecuted it in the courts this year for a breach that occurred last year.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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On the first question I asked about where inappropriate material was used in the incineration, which had come from a non-three bin system, what is the next stage where there is an inspector's report raising a concern? What happens next?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

The facility operates on the basis of certain waste acceptance criteria. The waste coming in has to meet that criteria to be processed by the plant. The operator of the facility has to have a process in place for periodically checking the categorisation of that waste. When the EPA is on site it will often check what is coming into the facility and have it tipped up to ensure it is appropriate. On one occasion it was noted the wrong type of waste was going into the facility. A non-compliance investigation was opened on that. The process is about making sure that the acceptance procedures are improved and that only the appropriate materials are accepted on-site.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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There is not likely to be fine or a consequence for the company other than warning it not to do it again.

Dr. Tom Ryan:

It depends on the particular case.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Regarding a second incident, which I believe has been recently reported, where material was returned from the plant as being inappropriate, there was no recording as to where that material went. Is that a fair summary of what happened?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

I need to check the detail. We will have to take a look at it.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The delegates may come back to us on it in writing.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I understand the company has applied another 200,000 tonnes of waste material per year and that it is looking for an extension of its licence to allow for it. What is the role of the EPA in considering such an application and who decides on it? Is it the council, the EPA or another body?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

I can speak only from the EPA's perspective. One understands there may be a proposal for a figure of 90,000 tonnes, but there is no proposal before us. I will speak to the generality of the process. Such a proposal would trigger a licence review with a public participation dimension. Submissions from the public and public representatives would be taken into account as part of that process.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I apologise for the series of detailed questions, but it is a major issue in my constituency. The Climate Action Fund has available €20 million, I believe for the use of heat from the wastewater at the facility in the district heating system. Does the EPA have any involvement with it or does it have any understanding of what could be developed? What is its role in considering the use of heat from wastewater?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

Is the Deputy referring to community heating?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes. It is about using heat from wastewater at the plant.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Collins addressed that issue earlier.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

It is a proposal that is being funded by the Department. It is a project under the auspices of the city council.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is related to the plant.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

Yes. It is a waste to energy plant. The waste is being used to generate electricity. The next phase will involve using the heat from the process to provide heat in the local community. There are proposals from the local authority to develop that quarter of the city.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I presume the Department was involved in considering applications under the Climate Action Fund. Would it be possible to send members details of what exactly is proposed? To be honest, I am totally in favour of using heat from wastewater. It is my understanding of a report from a number of years ago by Dr. David Connolly at a Danish university that half of Dublin could be heated with the amount of heated wastewater going into the River Liffey. It might have some significant environmental benefits. I would appreciate it if we could get the details. Would it have any effect on the operation of the plant? I presume it would not.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We might get the details in that regard.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

We have no role in the licensing of or planning conditions for the plant.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Mr. Collins would have a copy of the details of what is planned or know how much of the heated wastewater could be used and so on?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

I can certainly find out what information we have on the application made to the Climate Action Fund.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Perhaps Mr. Collins might forward it to us.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

The infrastructure proposals would probably have been part of the original project under Dublin City Council.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I have a policy question. There is to be additional capacity of 90,000 tonnes at this facility, while there is capacity to deal with 235,000 tonnes at the Indaver facility in County Meath. Are all three cement plants engaged in the waste incineration process? That must mean that there is capacity for a further 400,000 or 500,000 tonnes.

Ms Mary Gurrie:

There are three licensed cement facilities - the Platin works, Quinn Cement and Lagan Cement. They have capacity to deal with approximately 340,000 tonnes of waste. The throughput is expected to be approximately 250,000 tonnes this year. They do not necessarily operate to full capacity.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The proposed plant in Cork would have capacity to deal with another 250,000 tonnes.

Ms Mary Gurrie:

I understand that is what is included in the application for planning permission for the Ringaskiddy site, which is subject to judicial review. It is in the order of 240,000 tonnes.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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In the presentation there is reference to the European Circular Economy document which I have in detail and which notes waste incineration as a possible technology. I read about giving up on incineration as a circular economy would lead us to recovering materials such that we would not have to burn our waste. Why, therefore, are we considering further expansion of capacity, with an additional 90,000 tonnes at Poolbeg, a cement plant in Limerick and a further 250,000 tonnes in Cork? Why are we going against European policy with this major expansion of incineration capacity? Clear recommendations are made in the European Circular Economy document.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Collins has answered that question. He might briefly outline his response again as I am conscious of time.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

The European Commission has stated waste energy processes can play a role in the transition to a circular economy provided the EU hierarchy is used. That is mentioned in the communication.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I do not have the paper in front of me, but I could give other quotes. They might imply that one could do as Mr. Collins says, but the clear indication is that it is not European policy. Does the EPA agree with my assessment of what the circular economy would bring? Surely in the long term there should be a reduction, rather than rapid expansion, of the need for incineration.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

There were some questions from Deputy Smith. In the future there will be a role for waste energy processes in achieving one of the legally binding targets adopted at European level and which Ireland supports - a reduction of the amount of material going to landfill to 10%. We have dramatically reduced the amount which in the past few years has been more than halved and we will reduce it even further. There are materials that we do not want to go to landfill and waste energy is one of the processes that can be used in that regard. The waste to energy capacity identified by the regional planning authorities and in waste management plans builds in the assumption that the 2030 recycling goals will be achieved. It is consistent with them.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious that answers are being repeated.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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How does the massive expansion of incineration fit in with the strategy the Minister, Deputy Bruton, set out yesterday when he indicated that we effectively wanted to move towards a zero emissions economy by 2050? How will we do it when we are burning all of this waste?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

The use of landfill results in greenhouse gas emissions that are even more potent because the gas is methane rather carbon dioxide. In line with the circular economy concept, we are keeping the value of resources in the economy for longer by putting them through a waste-to-energy facility, rather than into a landfill.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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As I understand it, the Cork incinerator project has been subject to a legal challenge. That is unsurprising as the planning process was bizarre, if we look at it from a distance. It was highly unusual. Is the EPA involved in the legal process. At what stage is it at?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

As we understand it, the planning application is subject to judicial review. There is no proposal before us.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Does it need to get through the judicial review process before going before the EPA for a licence?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

Planning permission must be obtained before proceeding to the licensing process.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for being late.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There was a clash with a discussion of environmental matters.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I had to attempt bilocation in order to be in the Chamber at the same time for the statements on transition.

I welcome the officials from the EPA and the Department. On waste policy, the Minister is precluded from exercising powers in many areas. In this country we have an unusual way of collecting waste if we compare it with models used in other European states where more contro is exercisedl by local authorities. The services are either provided directly by a local authority or using a franchise model. Here we have what is termed "side by side" competition, although many householders might say there is not much competition and that it is actually side by side price fixing.

A few issues arise. Has the Department given serious consideration to other models? There are three separate trucks belonging to different companies coming in during the morning to collect waste so the issue of carbon emissions arises at a time when we are supposed to be reducing such emissions. We know the transport sector is one of the more challenging in the context of reducing the amount of energy we use. We had a discussion in the Dáil about this earlier. there is a complete clash between waste policy and our climate change targets in that three large trucks are doing the job one truck should be doing because we have side-by-side competition. That is just one effect. There is also the issue of trucks coming in and out of small residential areas at different times, which can be a bit disruptive. That is one of the issues I would highlight.

The issue of value for money also arises. If we look at the cost of waste collection here compared with other states, it does not show that this side-by-side competition is any cheaper or confers any real economic benefit on the householder.

The issue of control arises. Local councillors and the Oireachtas have no control. It is "Hands off. This is the Wild West. We'll leave it to ye lads. Have a look at it, bring in a bit of light regulation and let it run on from there". A report produced by the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, raised the question of having a franchise model where the local authority would put it out to tender, members of the local authority and officials would make a decision on the best tender to accept. It would be tendered for a period of between three and five years taking a number of things into consideration such as the ability of the contractor, price, means of disposing of waste and good environmental practice. Has this been considered at official level? The Minister should really be calling in departmental officials and making political decisions on this. I wonder whether things are decided by officials behind the scenes because some people say they constitute the permanent Government. I do not know. I have never been in government so I do not know whether this is true. I have a suspicion that there is a grain of truth to it. Are officials having those conversations?

In the context of incineration, waste gas is being burnt off at landfill sites. It has been burnt off at the site in Kyletalesha in County Laois for 12 or 13 years. I remember raising the fact that they were going to put a flare on it at a council meeting. I asked if it could be captured and harnessed for natural gas and maybe used to generate electricity or used another way. Our guests from the EPA referred to monitoring. What are their views on that because a number of these old landfill sites, some of which are very large, particularly those in the commuter belt, generate significant amounts of methane? Do our guests from the EPA have any comments about that? From the agency's perspective, what are the challenges with those old landfill sites?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I might bring our guests from the EPA first.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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My apologies; that was a question to the Department. I will come to the one directed at the EPA in a minute. I have two questions for the Department.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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So that question is for the Department.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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In the context of one of them, the officials from the Department referred to governance, local authorities and the Oireachtas. Perhaps they might revisit this matter briefly?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

Controls are in place in respect of waste collection services. Local authorities are the statutory bodies with the power to issue permits for waste collection services in their areas. There have been a number of reforms in local government to consolidate that service being provided to ensure that-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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It is one county council that-----

Mr. Matthew Collins:

It provides that service on behalf of all local authorities as a shared service so it ensures a better quality of regulation and consistency in regulatory decisions. There is a role for local authorities in issuing permits. It is illegal for other operators that do not have permits for particular areas to collect waste in those areas.

I thought the Deputy's question about landfill was for the EPA. It was about emissions being released from old landfill sites. There is probably a number of technical issues here. These are historic landfill sites. The goal is to capture the methane that is being released as a natural process from landfill sites as the material decays. It is being captured and converted by flaring into CO2 so that has a less damaging impact on the climate. That is the purpose of the process so, in a sense, it is mitigating the damage being done by waste landfills. If one thinks about what we are doing with waste to energy, one can see that it is the same thing. We are-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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My point is that we are burning off energy. It is going into the atmosphere.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

The challenge in terms of using it as a potential energy source is that it is not an engineered process. The landfills in question were designed many years ago. It is probably an engineering question that I am not qualified to answer in terms of the ability to provide an energy source that could be used for electricity generation. The more modern, purpose-built waste-to-energy facilities are designed for that purpose from the outset. For example, the Poolbeg facility already generates electricity so rather than the materials going to landfill, we are reducing the number of landfills and the amount of material going to them. In line with the principles of the circular economy, we are using the material and trying to keep the value of materials in the economy for longer by extracting the energy value.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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What about side-by-side competition and the franchises for waste collection?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

That is the current policy. I forgot to-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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It is a crazy policy.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

-----come back to the Deputy on that. A permit system is in place. Regarding the policy issue mentioned by the Deputy, the Department will commence a review of our national waste policy this year. The reason we are looking at it now is because the European package of waste legislation - the circular economy package - and some legislation on plastics are very near conclusion and should be finalised by quarter 1. Given the long-term context and the fact that the targets we will work to meet for 2025, 2030 and 2035 are going to be set, it is an opportune time to review the policy. As part of that review, we will take on board the information from the CCPC report and the issues it raised as well as the information we received from the price monitoring group in terms of charging for residential collection services. We are looking at waste policy as a whole. There is much to consider because a great deal of it will be-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Is the franchise model in scope to be considered?

Mr. Matthew Collins:

The franchise has been identified as an issue in terms of where it might be used or where it might make sense. While I understand-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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It makes sense across the rest of Europe.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

It depends. Different countries have different approaches.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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We have looked at them. The figures are there. Most European countries use the franchise model.

Mr. Matthew Collins:

Definitely - most European countries would use it but it is not an absolute rule that must be applied. Again, there are different perspectives. Some people like to have a choice of service provider. If we are going to remove competition, can we be satisfied that we are able to achieve a more cost-efficient service for householders because they will ultimately end up paying the collection charges? That is one of the issues flagged in the CCPC report, which we are taking as one of the inputs into the policy review we are commencing.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I look forward to that being considered.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Gurrie wish to respond to the questions directed at the EPA?

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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The overall issue with incinerators relates to matters such as conditions and the type of waste going to incineration. The technology involved is relatively new to this country.

A lot of us do not like incineration, but it is used. How often are incineration sites inspected? How often is an EPA inspector on site? What control does the EPA have of the waste used for the purpose of incineration? Many people who work in the sector have asked the following questions. Does the EPA have sufficient powers? Does the legislation in place need to be changed or does legislation need to be introduced to give the EPA more powers?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

EPA inspectors have visited the Poolbeg site 13 times in 2018. We take a risk-based approach to enforcement on such sites. Our assessment is appropriate at this time. There are three levels of monitoring of emissions at the plant. Under the licence, the operator must provide for on-site monitoring, while the EPA periodically monitors on-site. The general environment is also monitored. The plant is well monitored.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Were the 13 visits announced?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

Most, or 99.9%, of visits by the EPA are unannounced.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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What about the types of waste used?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

The types of waste that can be accepted for incineration are stipulated in the conditions that accompany the licence. The waste plants are licensed, or forced, to accept includes residual or black bin waste. Plants are required to have a programme to assess waste. When EPA inspectors are on-site, they periodically assess what is going into them. We address issues when they arise.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Does the same apply to cement plants?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

They are subject to specific waste acceptance criteria.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Do EPA inspectors visit them regularly?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

It depends on their history and all sorts of other things. As we take a risk-based approach, there is not a blanket number of site visits. The number of times EPA inspectors visit each plant is available on its website, with the site reports. If the Deputy wants to receive specific details, we will be happy to provide same.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. Ryan believe the EPA, as a statutory body, has sufficient powers to carry out its work? Has it experienced difficulties in a particular area owing to the lack of legislation?

Dr. Tom Ryan:

In regulating the incinerator sector a wide range of powers is set out in the EPA Act, while standards are set out in European legislation. As we have many staff with expertise in this area, we believe we are sufficiently empowered.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegates for coming. Is it agreed that the committee publish the opening statements and submissions received on its website? Agreed.