John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The point that has been the thread in earlier questions and will come up later is that this discussion we are having about councillors' pay takes place in a broader context. There is political acceptance that the ad hocsituation that exists at present, namely, the basic payment plus a series of allowances and expenses, needs reform. That is why Sara Moorhead was given the task to consider this matter. The discussion will take place in the broader context of public sector pay. If we are to make the argument, and I want to make this argument in the spring of next year, that councillors should be paid using a more streamlined, clear-cut and better system than at present, and more than they are at present, then we need to jump the hurdle of public sector pay discussions in which the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is heavily involved almost all of the time.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien said it was a pity that we are not discussing the report. I remind him that this report was always going to be an interim report. I understand from discussions that took place before I came in, and my own email, as well as comments by contributors here, that people expected a figure would be stated in the report. The clear indication, as I read it, and I have had no contact with Ms Moorhead since she was appointed to her position, is that she feels that in order to put that figure, she must first do the background work. That situation is deeply frustrating for councillors in all parties and Independent councillors. All sorts of groups are now thinking and considering standing in local elections, which is why it was important to get an interim report and give an indication. This report is only an indication of the way that she is thinking and where the ultimate report will end up. I ask people here, never mind councillors, who may be watching or elsewhere, not to despair. It is absolutely the intention of the Government that what she produces will be implemented and we need the strongest report possible to do so.

Deputy Ó Broin specifically spoke about public sector pay and councillors working full-time. We must be conscious of the fact, and this was mentioned in the interim report, that quite a lot of people in local government have other jobs. However, the jobs may not be full-time but part-time.

It is a difficult proposition to try to see how we will marry meetings, times and so on. This is Deputy O'Dowd's point. Ms Moorhead has spoken in her report about other, softer supports for councillors, but one matter that will be examined is the supports that will be available to people working in private business to get the time necessary to attend meetings and do the work of a councillor.

Council chambers should be representative. This means more women. In the last local elections only three people born outside the State were elected as councillors, despite the fact that 12% of the people who live in the State were born outside it. We have open voting regulations for local elections. Basically, everyone who is resident in the State and over the age of 18 has a vote in local elections. This is not the case in many other countries. Part of making councils more representative is not excluding people who have another job. Marrying these two elements is a difficult task but, again, that is part of the task Ms Moorhead faces over the next few months.

Deputy O'Dowd spoke about family friendly hours and reducing the number of councillors. We are at the lower end internationally regarding the number of councillors per population. There was a substantial change in this regard in advance of the last local elections. A further reduction in local representation would enable local authorities to be in a stronger position to pay councillors more but there is not much merit in a high ratio of population to councillors. The role of a councillor is to be as close to his or her community as he or she can. This should not be a reason to fail to pay them correctly, and I am not using that as an excuse but I do not favour reducing the number of councillors we have.