Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 4 December 2018
Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach
Estimates for Public Services 2018
Vote 13 - Office of Public Works (Supplementary)
2:00 pm
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We are resuming our consideration of the 2018 Supplementary Estimate for Public Services, Vote 13 - Office of Public Works. I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, to make an opening statement.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I thank the committee for the time afforded to my officials and me to provide the additional detail on the papal visit, as requested last week.
My attendance at this committee as Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform with special responsibility for the Office of Public Works and flood relief is to propose a net Supplementary Estimate of €20 million. This is to cover costs incurred by the OPW for the papal visit and an estimated additional spend of €4 million on new works, alterations and additions for a number of projects including emergency work, ancillary works on energy retrofit projects, lift replacement programme, work on Leinster House and the Department of Justice and Equality rationalisation programme.
The main part of this Supplementary Estimate, at €18 million, relates to costs of the work undertaken by the OPW on the visit of Pope Francis to Ireland. On request from the Taoiseach's office earlier this year, the OPW fully committed to providing its resources to plan and assist in organising this event. However, it should be noted that there were no funds allocated to the OPW within its 2018 Estimate for an event of this magnitude. There was an understanding that additional funds would be provided on completion of the work by the OPW and I am here to request that the committee approves this Supplementary Estimate.
A number of queries arose at the last meeting regarding the procurement of goods and services for this event. The first aspect that needs to be acknowledged is the extremely short timeframe from the date the Department of the Taoiseach requested the OPW to plan for this event to the actual date of the papal visit. Hence, the OPW used a combination of tendering competitions where possible and existing multi-year frameworks for a number of contracts that had been put in place, together with the Office of Government Procurement for the decade of centenaries. All suppliers on the existing framework had successfully been through the rigours of a public request for tender process and have to date fulfilled all obligations as laid out in their respective contracts.
At the last committee meeting, Deputies were very considerate and complimentary of the excellent work carried out by the OPW on this event. I would like to reiterate my thanks for the hard work the OPW put into ensuring that this event was carried out in a highly professional and effective manner. To put into perspective the magnitude of the event, it was viewed by 1.1 million viewers from 159 countries, with 1,200 journalists from 31 countries accredited for the event. We, as Deputies, and our colleagues in government can be proud of how Ireland was portrayed nationally and internationally by this event. Hence, it is my opinion that we should support
Before I conclude, I remind members that the OPW is consistently available to Government to respond to these large-scale infrastructural projects and will do everything in its power to obtain value for money in carrying out its function, which is a very wide remit spanning from flood risk to estate and heritage management. I am happy to recommend this Supplementary Estimate for approval by the committee and to answer any questions that may arise. We circulated answers to the questions put to us last week. I have also circulated the figures required by the committee. I am happy to take questions relating to that.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thank the Minister of State but, unfortunately, the information came in very late. We got the more detailed information requested after last week's meeting only a couple of hours ago. Can I confirm that the €16.7 million we are talking about now plus another €800,000 that was mentioned last week, which brings the figure to €17.5 million, is not for items that would be usual for a State visit by a Head of State in terms of gardaí deployed in front and behind the car and so on and that they relate, overwhelmingly, to the mass in Phoenix Park, event management and logistics relating to stewarding? Is that the case?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It is, yes.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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If a concert organiser were to organise a concert in Phoenix Park, and I understand there has been a concert by Ed Sheeran in Phoenix Park, who would pay for those equivalent aspects such as stewarding, event management and logistics? Would the State pay for that?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No. However, I would point out that the money in the Supplementary Estimate for the areas the Deputy mentioned is not just for the event in Phoenix Park. It is to do with the events at Knock, Phoenix Park, Croke Park and what took place on the streets in Dublin during the papal visit. With regard to concerts etc., I believe all concert programmes involve ticketing and the costs in respect of ticketing is put onto the people attending. The people literally pay for the event, and the stewarding company.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes, because they are private events organised by private organisers. However, the event in Phoenix Park was a private event. It was open ticketing - there was no charge for the tickets - but it was a private event organised by the Catholic Church. Why is it appropriate for the State to spend close to €18 million of public money on a private church event in any case, not to mention the very substantial moneys that are owed by the church to the State?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I totally disagree with the Deputy. In 1979, when a previous Pope came here, the State got very much involved in delivering that for the people of Ireland. In regard to the Pope's visit for the Gathering of Families, we worked closely, as we have done in the past and continue to do so, to make sure that everything was properly in place in terms of security, safety and all the works involved in that for the people who came to this event. The people looked for the Pope to visit Ireland. We stepped up to the mark as requested by the Taoiseach to ensure there was a whole-of-Government approach to making this visit worthwhile and to showcase Ireland abroad.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The Minister of State believes it is a good use of public money that, for example, the public spent €1 million on stewarding alone for what was a private Catholic Church event?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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When the tickets went online, half a million people applied for them. Once that number of people applied for the tickets, the OPW took on the task of running the event. A management plan was put in place. We then set out how we would run the event. In terms of that event or any event we host, security is of vital importance to the people. There are two different types of stewarding involved in that - one outside and one inside. The people inside took care of what was going on. The people on the outside took care of what took place on the street but the most important point to make is that we looked after the safety of the people attending the papal visit.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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There is another €600,000 for stewarding, giving a total of €1.6 million. The State will not look for the Catholic Church, as the organiser, to pay for any of the costs of event management, infrastructure, camera platforms, closed circuit television, temporary toilets, stewarding, etc.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The way in which we run these types of events is set out in the estate management plan. We are obliged to work with those plans. This is not something that just happens. It involves a great deal of organisation. A management plan running to 1,200 pages was put in place to cover this event. We have to adhere to that. We work with the Garda, fire service, local authorities, the HSE and various other agencies as part of the plan. While people were talking about the Pope coming at the end of last year, we only got official notice of that in February. A considerable amount of work needed to be done and we needed to do it perfectly. No unforeseen events, injuries or anything like that occurred in the Phoenix Park that we could not control. It was a very well run event.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I am not questioning the quality of the work done by the OPW on the event management. However, I will not support the Vote and we will see how the division on that goes. Members of the public are being asked to pay event management costs of €100 for each person who attended these events around the country. The public would not do that for a similar private event by a political organisation, social movement or the organisers of a concert or football match. In the cases of all those major events, the costs would be covered by the private organisation in question. This raises a fundamental question about the relationship of church and State. The public is made up of Catholics and non-Catholics, and everybody has their absolute right to practise their religion. However, the public is being asked en masseto pay for a private religious event of one private religion, in this case the Catholic Church. It seems to be completely at odds with any notion of a secular society and of the separation of church and State.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The Taoiseach made a request to the OPW in relation to holding the event. It was estimated that 500,000 people would attend. The OPW put in place a management plan for the event. I will not be drawn into a discussion on church versus State or anything like that. My job, as Minister of State, was to fulfil the request of the Taoiseach and that is what I did.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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How much did the Catholic Church in various guises, for example, the World Meeting of Families, contribute to the organisation of these events?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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At this time, I am not up to scratch on that.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Do we have any idea?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I will get the figure for the Deputy and send it on to him.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The additional information we received refers to an Actavo procurement-type contract. What does that mean?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I ask the Chairman to repeat the question.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Apparently, there was procurement of €4.9 million. This is referred to as a procurement-type contract. What is that?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I will ask Mr. Buckley to answer that.
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
I will explain the procurement for all the contractors, including Actavo. We used a combination of existing framework contracts and an individual procurement where time allowed. Fifteen different headings were involved. We reviewed the procurement timetable with the Department of the Taoiseach, the Office of Government Procurement and the Office of the Attorney General. We decided that 13 of the 15 areas of activity were procured under existing framework contracts, meaning the suppliers had already gone through the checks and balances of public procurement. In two cases, an additional procurement competition was run - very tightly in the time involved. These were for CCTV and security. In the case of Actavo, for the camera platforms, media risers, trackway and much of the fencing on both sites, we already had a framework contract in place and we contracted the work out under the terms of that framework contract.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On what date was that framework contract in place?
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
The contract runs from 19 February 2016 to 19 February 2020. We were very fortunate that because the OPW was centrally involved in much of the decade of centenaries commemorations, we had put in place a number of framework contracts for a succession of events and they allowed us to deal with these items. What we did-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The expenditure of €4.9 million was spent on the basis of a framework contract dated 19 February 2016.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The next one refers to "procurement" and "framework". What is the difference? What is the framework?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I gather that. The first one is a contract. The framework is dated 2016. Here we were spending €2.021 million and the reference is to a framework. Was that a separate framework for the suppliers involved or was it the framework of 2016?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In that case, it was a 2018 framework.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The framework for the expenditure of €2.021 million was from 17 December 2015.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There were multiple suppliers providing all sorts of things. The document refers to "procurement various". What method was used to employ these various contractors at a cost of €1.881 million?
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
For many of the smaller contractors, we would use the best procurement method available to us on a case-by-case basis. Some of these items would have been covered by framework contracts and some would have been under existing contractual relationships. As there was no time to do individual procurement, our focus was to ensure that the prices quoted and charged to OPW stood up to scrutiny and had been checked and vetted to public procurement standards in recent times.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, they were under this 2015 or 2016-type framework.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Do they date back that far? The event took place in 2018 and the OPW went back to 2016 for one framework and 2015 for another framework.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does it go back as far as 2015 and 2016 again?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The next one is a contract for €1.207 million.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I just want to get the dates for the frameworks the OPW was using.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How was-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was it a real-time procurement process or was it a framework process?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many bidders were there?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The next company is Eventus. What type of contract is involved? Was it a real-time process?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Some €1 million was paid to Pulse Security for stewards.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many companies tendered for that contract?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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ETAV was awarded a contract to provide electrical services. How many tenders were received for that contract or was it a framework?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The next item deals with a framework spend of €801,000 on logistic site management and signage.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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One contractor was awarded the contract at a cost of €647,000.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The contractor then subcontracted the work.
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
Yes. Firms such as Actavo and EOBA which were awarded the bigger contracts used multiple subcontractors. At the committee meeting last week, the question of whether small and Irish suppliers got their fair share of the work was raised. I can confirm that they did. Many such suppliers worked as subcontractors for the bigger companies. We checked that the concessions in the Phoenix Park took on an appropriate amount of work through the various contract arrangements. Many of them were small companies which were only capable of taking on a certain amount of work.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did Ailesbury provide services under a framework?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Over what period?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did the contract with Eventsec involve a framework?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On the day.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Some €344,000 was paid to CFA Construction Limited. That was procured by a structural engineer.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is what it states in the documentation. Was there a tender process? Was it under a framework?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did ION Solutions provide services under a framework or a contract? How many tenderers were there?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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There were six or seven contractors.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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PJ Hegarty & Sons is an existing framework involving €250,000, again dating from 2016.
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
That is a wider general framework contract that we use for a significant amount of building maintenance. The Chair also asked about civil engineering works. The framework contracts we are examining are linked to events in 2016 or State visits. However, because the OPW is responsible for the maintenance of all State buildings, we have another range of procured services for the maintenance function and in some cases are able to make use of that.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When was that existing framework put in place?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It dates from approximately 2014.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Arcana provided administrative staff at a cost of €100,000 under a framework dating from 2016.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The next item deals with the painting of railings, which was procured by BMS.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Part of the OPW.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was that a tender?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many suppliers tendered for the contract?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Three suppliers.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Banqueting Food Systems was awarded a contract at a cost of €76,000.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Critical Healthcare was awarded a framework contract worth €66,000 by the HSE.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Conex Developments undertook road works at the Papal Cross at a cost of €61,000.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Some €1.3 million remains to be paid by the OPW. It has not received invoices for those services.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for missing the start of this session. The third item involves multiple suppliers. I presume that none of those are items are listed more than once. The third item refers to multiple suppliers and works on the gates of the Phoenix Park gates and another entry refers to PJ Hegarty & Sons carrying out work on the gates of the Phoenix Park. I want to ensure that two separate suppliers undertook those works.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Each supplier is listed once.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What necessitated works being carried out twice on the Phoenix Park gates for the papal visit?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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As we know, it was necessary to take down the gates of the Phoenix Park for reasons relating to the management and control of the papal visit. Temporary gates were erected. For crowd control purposes, the temporary gates were taken down before the Pope arrived and put back up when the event was over. That is the source of that approximate cost of €200,000.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Stewarding services are listed twice, coming to €1.64 million.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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As the Deputy can imagine, it would have been very difficult for one company to provide sufficient stewards for the event. The services were divided into a contract for stewarding outside the event and another for inside.
It also took into account the other areas the Pope visited.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have any idea how many personnel we are talking about with regard to stewards?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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There were 2,916.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is 2,916 in total, inside and outside.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That was for the whole three-day visit.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I might come back to the Minister of State on that, I just want to do the maths.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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That includes Knock and those areas also.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On the outstanding invoices, are they outstanding because the companies are slow to submit them or are there issues with the costs?
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
It is a combination of both. There are a number of steps to consider, the first of which is procurement in advance to make sure the agreed rates are correct and acceptable, and meet procurement guidelines. Then, when the invoice is lodged we check the invoice against the work done. Some of this is quite complicated because there is so much detail involved, as the members can see from figures such as 2,916 stewards. There are many queries, checks and cross-checks until we are satisfied that the invoices can be paid. In some cases we are dealing with multiple small suppliers and the main contractor cannot invoice the Office of Public Works until it in turn is invoiced by multiple smaller suppliers, some of which are voluntary organisations. It can take a bit of time. This is why there are quite a few outstanding invoices. The visit was on 26 August, and even though it is now early December we will get quite a significant number of invoices over the next week or two
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The sum of those invoices is €1.3 million outstanding.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So there might be others?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked about the gates and there was some discussion about it at the last meeting of the committee. Three figures were mentioned. There is one figure in the Estimates, which the Minister of State has explained to Deputy O'Brien, of €244,000. This was for taking down gates and putting up temporary gates. What are the other figures with regard to these gates?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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There is another estimated cost of €700,000. First, we had to go out to tender for the gates. This does not come about by just sending out a tender; there were different people involved in heritage issues from other Departments to look at how we would go about this. The gates are a protected structure and are part of the Phoenix Park. In order to get the gates properly in place for the event and afterwards, and for money to be spent on them, it is not just a case of repainting the gates and putting them back up. I shall outline what goes along with that. In taking the gates down originally, some stonework and pillars had to be removed. They had to be rebuilt and put in place. Steelwork had to be in place. We also had to incur costs on tarmacadam and archaeologists because to put these gates back into place we were interfering with the road works. Included in those costs are the collective costs in putting the gates back where they belong. As members are aware, the park has won awards and gold medals recently and is vital to the people of Ireland. It is hugely important to the people and we had an opportunity, when doing those gates and bringing them back, to put them into use again that will do for centuries to come.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The two figures are €244,025 to take down the gates and to put up temporary gates. The €700,000 figure is for-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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That is to take down the gates, to put up temporary gates, to take down the temporary gates and put the proper gates back up when the papal visit was over. The other cost of €700,000 was put out to tender for getting the gates sprayed, done up and getting them back to their original use.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They were the original gates.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes. On top of that there are other costs such as the steelwork, stonework, pillars and tarmacadam. Those works are required for the gates also.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that but is the €700,000 included in this Estimate? This came up at the committee last week
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is included in this Estimate. Is there any other figure? The Estimates refers to conservation architects and gate works where the OPW is waiting for an invoice for €6,150. What is that for exactly?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It is for the architects who supervised the works.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any other estimate in here that relates to gates?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is €244,000 and €700,000 and €6,150.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will return to the issue of the stewards. Pulse Security had the higher figure of just over €1 million. A breakdown is given of all the areas where that company's personnel provided security, namely, Dublin Castle, the papal route, the Pro-Cathedral, the Capuchin Day Centre and Knock. They were not involved in the Phoenix Park event according to this breakdown. There is reference to car parks and there are two aspects that the Minister of State might be able to explain. One is the combined services-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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One was for outside the Phoenix Park.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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They were outside the Phoenix Park, but it shows a figure for the Phoenix Park event as zero.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Eventsec provided services inside the Phoenix Park.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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When we are looking at the figure for the Phoenix Park event are we referring to the inside event and not the outside?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The stewarding was done externally as well as internally. It was combined for the event.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to establish how much the security cost for the day of the Phoenix Park event if security was being provided outside. I have all the figures for the other events such as Dublin Castle and the Pro-Cathedral. There are then the other two figures, one of which is security and one of which is combined services. It is for just over €600,000. Could we get a further breakdown of exactly where that €600,000 was spent?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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That is the figure of €630,000.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Where was that spent?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Inside the Phoenix Park.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Inside the Phoenix Park. Does that refer to Pulse Security? The figure for Pulse Security in this breakdown is for €1,005,270.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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That is a different company.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What does the Minister of State mean that it is a different company?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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That is events. There were two different companies providing stewards.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I just need to clear this up for myself. We have a list of the spending to date that shows a figure of €1,005,270 for Pulse Security for steward services. This was a tender, as far as I am aware. The contract procurement information is for Pulse Security, with a contract reference number and a total of €1,005,270. I believe there is a 21 cent difference between the two documents. It shows a zero figure in the breakdown for the Phoenix Park event. When I asked the question the Minister of State said it was for services outside the park but then said it was for security services inside the park. I am just trying to get a breakdown of exactly how much was spent by Pulse Security on the Phoenix Park event. I have the figures for every other location it was working.
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
We must break it down. Pulse Security would certainly have worked on Sunday, 26 August, when the mass was taking place in the Phoenix Park, on the roads outside and in managing the people.
What we will have to break down concerns the total of just over €1 million, which would have included Knock, Dublin Castle, Saturday morning, the papal visit to Dublin on Saturday afternoon and the outside event on Sunday. I do not think we have that figure to hand.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have the figures for Dublin Castle, the papal route, the Pro-Cathedral, the Capuchin Day Centre, Knock and the car parks. There are two other figures. One is €387,000 for combined services, while the other is security for €246,000. I am looking for more detail on these two figures because we know some of the security was subcontracted to G4S.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am happy to return to this matter if the officials can source the information.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will flag that. We can come back to it when the witnesses have the information.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for arriving late; I had to attend another meeting. The Minister of State or his officials may have answered my questions already. On the last occasion, I asked questions about the events co-ordinator. There were two positions there. Did we get some clarification about that? How much did it cost?
Mr. John McMahon:
There were four event managers, three of whom were on site and one of whom was in Dublin Castle. There were three event co-ordinators. I know the terminology is a bit confusing. The event co-ordination was handled by the OPW's the event management unit. It depended on the locations. We have site-located event controllers and event co-ordinators co-ordinating their activities so it was a combined effort of seven different parties overseen by the OPW's event management control unit.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the OPW needs to have those people when it is expecting large crowds and that it cannot leave anything to chance. I want to query one other figure. The figure for training in crowd safety is €10,000. Again, I presume the OPW has to do that type of thing in the lead up to an event. Did a private company carry that out?
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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What would have been involved there? Was it a half a day, a day or two days?
Mr. John McMahon:
I will have to come back to the Deputy about the specifics of that. Volunteers provided by the church and others were stewarding on the day. They would have been largely untrained in certain skills such as crowd control and possibly health and safety aspects. In respect of the stewarding we would have engaged, we would have insisted upon a level of capacity and competence. Training would have been necessary for those who did not have the right competence in order for them to acquire that competence.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I see Mr. McMahon answered the question I put on the previous occasion about ATM hire.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Were most of the other services carried out by Actavo?
Mr. John McMahon:
No, there was a multiplicity of suppliers. There was a subcontracting arrangement relating to those that were provided by Actavo. It engaged more than 60 subcontractors that were working under the Actavo umbrella but that would have engaged by Actavo. There were about 330 individual contractors working on the events. While the headline figures might seem very high, with Actavo at over €5 million beneath that, a large number of subcontractors were engaged by Actavo.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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That is all I wanted clarified.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Eventsec security contract for €635,000 was only for inside the Phoenix Park. It did nothing else while Pulse Security looked after security outside the Phoenix Park. Could Mr. McMahon come back with those figures if he has them? Is it fair to say that the overall cost will be more than €18 million because, obviously-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe not to the Minister of State's Department but in general, will it cost more than €18 million? Obviously there is a Garda bill.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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There will be additional costs relating to that.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is a Garda bill that the Department of Justice and Equality must meet. Perhaps this is an unfair question and if it is, the Chairman can pull me up on it. What is the total cost of the papal visit across all Departments?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I would not be in a position to give that answer based on what we have regarding the cost to the OPW. That is what we are looking for-----
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The figure of €18 million is just the OPW bill.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Other costs have been mentioned such as additional gardaí. Deputy Burton mentioned the Army personnel. Is that paid by the OPW or does it come out of the Army's own budget?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We applied and got stewards in and also had volunteers. We did not have enough volunteers so An Garda Síochána brought in the army.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who paid them? One hears about police being paid for extra-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The Department of Defence.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is all separate. That is not billed back to the OPW's cost centre.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So An Garda Síochána and the Department of Defence are separate.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes. There was €500-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The point Deputy Jonathan O'Brien was making was that it is €18 million plus. Is that-----
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Multiplied-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will the OPW see those costs? Is it informed about the costs?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any further questions?
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Who operated the ATMs? Did two banks operate them?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I have done my own work on this matter. These ATMs are brought in for most concerts and other events and are paid for by whatever company is running them. Seneca was one company that provided while Power Solutions was the other.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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That involved providing the ATMs but who operated them? Was a bank or banks involved?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Companies provide it.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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They do the whole lot.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We have to provide a service. As the Deputy knows, most people travel around with debit cards. They do not carry cash.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I am not questioning that at all. I know the service must be provided. I was just curious to know.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In his opening statement, the Minister of State went through the OPW. We received an explanation last week regarding the Leinster House spend. The Minister of State spoke about the Department of Justice and Equality rationalisation programme. What is that?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The figure for the Department of Justice and Equality rationalisation programme was €1.5 million. The cost of restoration is €2.5 million.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What will the €1.5 million be spent on?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I will ask Mr. McMahon to answer that question.
Mr. John McMahon:
I will consult my note. The rationalisation of the accommodation of the Department was required as a result of a lease expiring on 94 St. Stephen's Green and the Department being compelled to move. The project involved the relocation of staff across three properties while maintaining business as usual. The project required multiple staff moves as a result of the complexity of phasing of works. In addition, out-of-hours work added to the project cost. The provision of a high-security secure file storage area was not included in the original brief and was subsequently included. A fire integrity upgrade was also required in one of the properties. To sum it up, it involved the costs incurred in moving the Department from a property where a lease was being surrendered to other property.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In the other paperwork we received, there is a flood risk management estimate for 2018. Is that part of this?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is reference to €4 million.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The €4 million is in regard to Leinster House.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is no Supplementary Estimate for flooding.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No, I am spending a lot of money but I would like to spend more.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Supplementary Estimate for 2018, Vote 13, refers to flood risk management.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No, that is not part of the Supplementary Estimate.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am looking at the 2018 Estimate and the actual outturn. The difference between both is included in this Supplementary Estimate. Therefore, for estate management there is a greater outturn than what was estimated. What is that put down to?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, some of these figures have nothing to do with today's meeting and are just part of the information that was given.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any other questions?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I asked for information, although the witnesses can come back with it after the meeting.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We have it available.
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
I will deal with that. For Pulse Security there was a total cost of €1 million covering all of the events and the security on the Sunday outside of the Phoenix Park. Out of that total cost of just over €1 million, the Phoenix Park proportion for the Sunday was just under €200,000.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This relates to the two figures for the payment of contractors, first, €1.005 million, and, second, €635,347, which gives an overall amount of approximately €1.64 million.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This was questioned by Deputy Jonathan O'Brien.
Mr. Maurice Buckley:
I will explain. One of the companies, Eventsec, costing €655,000, dealt with security within the Phoenix Park only. Pulse Security, which received the larger amount of just over €1 million, dealt with Knock and the events on the Saturday at Dublin Castle and other events around Dublin city. On the Sunday of the papal mass in the Phoenix Park, it dealt with security outside of the Phoenix Park, in other words, crowd management around the city with regard to traffic.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What of the €200,000?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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To follow up on that, we now have the figure for Dublin Castle, the papal route, the Pro-Cathedral, the Capuchin Day Centre and Knock. I will put down the Phoenix Park event as €200,000 because it was outside. I presume the reference to car parks is to car parks around the Phoenix Park, which, again, is outside.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was looking for information on two figures. I now know that €200,000 of this is in regard to the Sunday. There is a combined services figure of €387,000 and a security figure of €246,000, which comes to approximately €630,000. We now know €200,000 of that was in regard to the Sunday event. What does the other €400,000-plus relate to? I am trying to get a breakdown of the combined figures.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It is for the non-Sunday events.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Where were they?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Other events took place, for example, the Saturday night in Croke Park and in the streets of Dublin related to the papal visit.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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However, they are not listed as individual events. Therefore, we spent €400,000-odd on stewarding on Croke Park.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We were not involved in Croke Park.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Where did the €400,000 get spent?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It was on the papal route.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We already have a separate figure for the papal route of €73,000.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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It does not say which page, but it is halfway through. It is contract and procurement information on overall cost for the company, Pulse Security. It gives us a list for the two subcontractors, G4S and SecuriGroup. It then gives us a breakdown of the costs, which is the €1.006 million and tallies with the overall figure. It gives us a breakdown of where all the money was spent at the different events, except for combined services and security. I am trying to find out what those figures relate to. I now know €200,000 is for the outside event on the Sunday but that still leaves €400,000-odd.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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If it helps, we can write to the Deputy with a full, detailed list in this regard. I do not have the figures he requires from me.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, they can write to the committee so we all have the information.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the total figure?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The total is €387,000 plus the €246,000-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is looking for an explanation of both of those figures.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I know what €200,000 was spent on but I do not know where the other €400,000-odd is.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, the Deputy requires information on roughly €400,000.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is €433,000.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If members have no other questions, I will make a comment. We went through this in detail today and on the previous occasion. The Minister of State will see from the engagement with members that a significant amount of information was not provided in a way that was clearly understood at the first meeting. To go back to Deputy O'Brien's query, we have to accept that the witnesses will write in to us and explain the €400,000, even though that should have been dealt with as part of the Estimate. I am saying that to the Minister of State's colleagues as much as I am saying it to him. On another occasion, if that were to happen, we might ask that we would not deal with the Estimate on the day we have it, and that we would come back again. I believe in having all of the figures here but, on this occasion, we have spent two meetings at it and I certainly would not be satisfied that all of the information was here. I ask the OPW to reply to the committee on that as soon as possible and to note that, in future, we expect all information to be provided early and previous to the meeting itself.
I raised the issue of Durrow Abbey with the Minister of State last week. I want to put on record that I had a casual meeting with the Minister of State where we spoke about it, and I spoke to Mr. Buckley. I will not go into the matter now because I am going to leave it for another day and ask members for their views as to how it should be handled. In the meantime, I am asking again for all of the information relative to that issue, including dates, times, facts and figures, dating back to the time when this was first discussed with the Arts for Peace project. I intend to suggest to members, when I get that information, that we have a special meeting with the OPW, and to include the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, who was then Minister of State in the Department with Deputy Moran. I want to put on record that I attended meetings with the OPW and officials and it was my understanding that we were discussing the surrender of the lease of Durrow Abbey back to the State for a figure. At one stage, at a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and officials, a figure of €600,000 was mentioned.
There are a number of issues that need to be sorted out but they can only be addressed by the provision of the full documentation to this committee. Then we can examine exactly what is happening and understand the position from both sides of the argument.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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As the Chair is well aware, there are High Court proceedings in respect of this and papers are pending. It would be wrong for me or anybody to start investigating this matter when legal action is being pursued. It would be unfair for me to make any more statements on this matter until the outcome of those legal proceedings is known. That is only right and fair.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I suggest that the Minister of State has an obligation to protect taxpayers' money. As I explained to Mr. Maurice Buckley, the proceedings in court are a step beyond common sense for both parties. Mediation was suggested. There have been a number of issues during the course of this matter and I do not accept that hiding behind the threat of a High Court action is sufficient. The Department needs to give itself time to examine the existing documents and to reach its conclusion. Based on the fact that a commitment was given and discussions entered into by the Minister of State at the Department, Deputy Canney, I give an assurance that I will come back to this at a future date. I am asking the Minister of State, again, for the history of this matter to be provided to the members so they can make up their own minds as to what should be done.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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As I stated previously, this matter is subject to proceedings in the High Court and I will not be saying anything further.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the Minister of State to provide the information on the history of this matter to the members of this committee. That does not affect the court case.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I am sorry. It can affect the outcome.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister of State refusing to give the information to this committee?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No, I will discuss it with my team. In fairness, the Chair raised this matter with me a year ago. He said at the time that we had done nothing. I made a commitment then to the Chair to meet that person, but on the date I went down to the Chair's neck of the woods, that person was not available.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It did not suit.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Since then, I have asked my officials to go through the documentation. The best legal advice I have, as I have set out, states that there are proceedings in the High Court and I have to adhere to that advice. The Chair can understand where I stand-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I can understand-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The Chair has referred to a duty to the taxpayer, and I have a duty to the taxpayer.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking that the committee be furnished with the details of the court case. I am asking that we be furnished with the generalities of the matter we are talking about. The Minister of State is not prohibited from sharing that information.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I am sorry, but according to the legal advice I am adhering to, I cannot do as the Chair requests due to the pending case in the High Court.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is intending to go to court-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----backed by taxpayers' money.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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On legal advice, I am not saying anything further on this matter. I am sorry.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to let it go at that. I assure the Minister of State he has not heard the end of this matter. I also assure him that the commitments given by the Office of Public Works, OPW, the then Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and two other Ministers, will be well ventilated and it will not be a pretty sight for the OPW.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I am not in court in respect of the abbey but I am stating the advice I have. As the Chair is going with his advice, I am going with the advice available to me.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not availing of any advice. I just want to inform this committee. That is all.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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What previous Ministers have done is nothing to do with me. I am going on the advice available to me. I am sorry.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is grand. I reiterate that this is not the end of this matter. It is typical of the OPW.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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No. I disagree with the Chair. The OPW does very efficient work.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know that the Minister of State disagrees. He has been well briefed since our last meeting and knows damn well that he is wrong. I have every intention of pursuing this matter to the very end because I believe the person in question, or project in question, was misled. All I have asked for is clarification on all of those issues. The Minister of State can hide behind his legal advice and state he is going to court etc. That is fine. It will now be for the other party to decide where best to go with this. I am simply saying that the Minister of State can get legal advice but he can judge for himself as to whether it is correct and in the interests of the taxpayer. We are going to leave it at that.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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As the Chair said the last day, he is getting excited now. I am giving him my side of the matter. I accept his side-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am not excited.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I am sorry. This is an agenda that the Chair has raised a number of times prior to me becoming the Minister of State in this Department. Legal papers have been issued and I am going with the advice I have. I ask the Chair to let that person, whoever he or she may be-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a person.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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-----to go further with this matter. I have met Offaly County Council and various other groups regarding this matter. I am happy with what I have said and I am making no further comment.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. Let me be clear, however. I am not getting excited, at all, but I have every intention of getting to the truth. That is why I asked for the general paperwork to inform us as to what this case is about. I will get to the bottom of this issue without getting excited at all.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I do not get excited.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not talking about the Minister of State. I am talking about me.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I am just letting the Chair know that I do not either.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister of State and his officials are before this committee again, perhaps we will be able to deal further with this matter. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending.