Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the delegates from the Irish Sport Horse Alliance, namely, Mr. Barry O'Connor, chairman, and Mr. Greg Broderick and Mr. Ger O'Neill, who are members. I also welcome economist, Mr. Jim Power. I thank them for appearing today to discuss the report on unlocking the economic potential of the Irish sport horse industry.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If, however, they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official either by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. O'Connor to make an opening statement.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

I thank the committee for the invitation to make a presentation. We appreciate members' time and interest. I will summarise my opening statement due to time constraints. I am sure everybody wants to get on with their evening. I am a producer, seller and trainer of showjumping horses. I am based in Malahide, County Dublin, and have a stable of 20 horses. I have eight staff. I mentor young riders. I have lectured at NUI Maynooth on occasion. I run training programmes for Teagasc young breeders and the Showjumping Association of Ireland.

I am accompanied by Mr. Greg Broderick from Tipperary. He is an Olympian and a breeder and producer of horses. I am also joined by Mr. Ger O'Neill from Kilkenny. He is also a breeder and producer. He produced and rode two of the gold medal winners at the recent world championships for young horses in Lanaken, Belgium. I am also accompanied by Mr. Jim Power, whom I believe is well known to members.

The Irish Sport Horse Alliance is a voluntary body comprising a group of businesses, individuals and sports bodies directly involved in the sports horse industry. The sport horse is anything other than a thoroughbred. The sector is driven mainly by eventing, showjumping and dressage - mainly by the Olympic disciplines. That is where most of the professional economic activity is.

Our group represents 3,000 jobs because our members include breeders, producers, trainers, owners, vets, blacksmiths, feed companies and equipment companies. Most of the major companies in Ireland are members and contributors to our alliance. Our goal is to sustain an increase in jobs, exports and inward investment in the sector and to grow the sector. We believe there is potential to double our output in jobs, exports and inward investment. We are not here to look for any subsidies, price supports or tax breaks. We will look after the price of our product. We just want investment from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

We are here to present our report. When we came together as a body two years ago, we found there were numerous reports on our industry, amounting to four or five over the past 15 years, but none had definitive information on the contribution of the sport horse sector or, indeed, its potential. Therefore, we commissioned Mr. Jim Power to produce an economic report on our industry. It has been circulated among members and he will elaborate on it. His remit was to inform public policy-makers of the economic footprint of the sector and identify measures that can be taken to unlock its potential.

The stand-out point in the report is that the industry is worth €816 million to the Exchequer and employs 14,000 plus. We did not make up those figures. They come from a UCD report, which was commissioned independently. They are not from any sport or breeding body or from us. They are altogether independent of our group. Another stand-out point in the report is that each horse results in average expenditure of €7,000 per year in the local economy. I refer to expenditure through vets, blacksmiths, feed, forage, bedding, subscriptions, travel, equipment and training. The report also states there are 20,000 active sport horses in Ireland, which means €140 million invested in the rural economy. That is outside the M50 in all the rural constituencies from Dingle to Donegal. In my stable alone – I am based in County Dublin – the feed comes from Kilkenny and the bedding from Ballina. My vet is from Kildare and my blacksmith is from Meath. I do shows around the country and my hay and any straw I use come from County Carlow. Those in the industry spend right around the country, benefitting every village and rural area.

There is a lot of good news in our sector. We are not here to complain and whine. In the past 18 months in the sport alone, we became the European senior gold medal winners. This happened in Sweden. At the world championships in Atlanta, America, this year, we were the silver team medal eventers. We had an individual silver there. We were the gold medal individual winners at the under-14 and under-18 competitions in Fontainebleau in France, with one competitor riding Mr. Ger O'Neill's horses. We are second in the world breeding statistics for eventing horses. Therefore, our island produces the second best eventing horses for export all around the world. We won three medals this year at the world breeding championships for young horses in Lanaken, Belgium. This is against all the other breeds from areas that are way stronger than us in terms of investment and numbers.

In our report, we envisage that we need €100 million in investment over the next five years to sustain our employment level, double it and increase our worth to the Exchequer. As a group of businesspeople, we realise the realties of budgetary allocations owing to a series of competing demands. I have watched a few of the reviews of people coming in here giving presentations and I realise everybody is looking for money at the same time.

Brexit will have a serious effect on the lower end of our market because England takes approximately 40% of our exports. The movement of horses is worrying for us because any slowdown in the movement of horses is where much of the expense arises. If the product is easier to get in Europe, those concerned will get it there instead.

We ask for €100 million as a group over five years. That is the figure we produced in the Jim Power report. Horse Sport Ireland put in a budget submission to the Government asking for €30 million. It wanted to spend it over the four new departments: high-performance sports; sports and recreation; breeding and production; and coaching, education and training. Unfortunately, in the budget we got an extra €500,000, which brings our annual funding from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to €3 million.

That is completely inadequate. I do not know how people think we can sustain 14,000 jobs and grow the economy with that level of funding. I cannot see the thinking behind it at all. That is one of the requests we have today. If our potential is to be realised, it is critical that realistic multi-annual funding is established so that we are not coming back every year and wondering what we are going to do next year, what programmes we can open and can sustain and what we can do over the next couple of years.

We have written to the Minister, Deputy Creed, to ask him to establish a high-level group to identify and secure sustainable funding streams for our sector. Without such an initiative the sector will have a high level of ambition, but no growth. With the committee's permission, my colleagues will now give a brief synopsis of what they do.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine.

Mr. Greg Broderick:

My stable is based in Thurles in County Tipperary. I am an international showjumper and spend approximately half of my time in Ireland and half in Europe at international shows. That is because of the unfortunate lack of facilities to compete at international shows in Ireland. To give a comparative statistic, when I was an under-21 rider at the European championships in Athens in 2006, there were five riders on the under-21 team and another five on the under-18 team. From those ten riders, I am the only one left in the business in Ireland. All the others have left and set up in England, mainland Europe and America. That is mainly because the facilities in Ireland are not up to scratch and it is hard to produce horses to a top level. It is a very upsetting statistic to think that all of my colleagues when I was a young rider have had to move away.

In total, I have 18 full-time and five or six part-time staff and 70 horses riding out every day in my stable. We breed up to about 40 foals every year, have about 250 horses on the farm and, like Mr. O'Connor, all our investment is in Ireland. I mention hay, straw, feed and farriers. I love being based at home in Ireland. Unless things improve, however, when we are putting so many young horses on the ground - if we do not have better shows, prize money, and, most importantly, better facilities around the country to produce our horses - in the next three years I see myself closing my operation in Ireland and moving to mainland Europe, as all the people I grew up with have done. I am not asking for subsidies, I am happy to drive my own business forward and to look after that side of things.

Mr. Ger O'Neill:

I am a director at Castlefield Sport Horses. It is a business I started in the last seven or eight years in what were challenging times. I have been lucky to win gold medals at the world championships and my rider has just won a gold medal at the European championships this year. I am in a similar situation to Mr. Broderick. We are trying to push forward and improve our horses here. Some of our expensive horses are worth up to €1 million and yet some of the facilities that we have to ride in here are not safe for the horses we want to compete with.

For the last six weeks, I have based some of my horses in Belgium. There are good facilities there that are up to speed with what we are trying to do. I have a young family in Ireland and I hope not to have to move. Ireland has ten of the top 100 riders in the world but only one of them is now based in Ireland. I would love to try to stay here but at the moment it is not viable for us to do that and operate at a high level. We are asking that the facilities be improved. Perhaps the committee could also have a broad look at the sector and see what we are doing and how much it is worth to the economy. We feel we are being overlooked somewhat. The racing industry is very good, as is the greyhound sector, but we are the poor relation. We really want to be taken seriously. We are serious people and we are committed to what we do. There are great people in Ireland with great love for the horses but we do not feel like we are getting much back from it at moment.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Mr. Power.

Mr. Jim Power:

I want to summarise briefly the report I did. I spent some years doing this report and I interviewed many stakeholders involved in the industry at all levels, from the top-end professional to the lower level of activities. It is a broad and diverse sector. The sport horse is at the centre of it all. Mr. O'Connor threw out some of the statistics. There are 14,830 active breeders in the country. More than 46,000 people are engaged in the industry, with more than 14,000 full-time equivalent employees, and it makes an economic contribution of €816 million, with an export value of €48 million. All that is achieved with support of about €3 million from the State.

In comparison, the thoroughbred sector makes an economic contribution of €1.84 billion and gets about €65 million in funding from the State. The question that must be asked is if anything like the same level of funding was provided to the sport horse sector, what sort of potential could be realised? The issues I kept coming up against as I did the research were the lack of support structures and the lack of a strategic plan. The industry has traditionally been very fragmented and that was reflected in the whole structure and board of Horse Sport Ireland.

That issue, thankfully, has now been addressed and there is a much tighter and more focused board in place. That is good. The general funding for the industry, particularly in the area of prize money, is very weak. The tourism potential of the sector is not recognised and it certainly is not being exploited. As previous speakers have mentioned, many of our top breeders and riders are being forced to leave the country, which is a great loss of a very talented group of people. The facilities are not up to scratch and there are also issues with maintaining the quality of the breeding stock.

Significant investment in the infrastructure and facilities is needed to try to bring up the level of competition. There has to be a strong focus on education and knowledge transfer. A key part of that is to try to create a career for young people in the horse sport area, so that it is not just an activity that they do in their spare time. It should be made a professional career. There also needs to be a strong focus on the whole breeding framework. Importantly, there needs to be a higher standard of competition available for Irish riders and breeders. If we do not have top quality competitions, we will not have the top quality people participating here and we will continue to see that brain drain.

As part of my research, I visited the Netherlands and viewed some of the facilities there, including the Equestrian Centre de Peelbergen. That is covered in the report. A number of things struck me about that centre. The first was the level of professionalism, the second was the quality of the infrastructure in place and the third, importantly, was the local authority was a key funder of that equestrian centre because it recognised the economic and tourism potential that centre brought to a rural area of the Netherlands. In my experience, the facilities in Peelbergen were up there with the best in class and it is the utopian vision of what the Irish industry can become.

I looked at the potential - and I am not sure if this is a forecast or if it is a target - but if the correct structures are put in place the economic contribution of the industry could be increased by at least 50% very easily.

We could create an extra 700 jobs and it would certainly double the export potential from €48 million to close to €100 million.

Two points stand out in my view. First, the sport horse industry is an incredibly important contributor to rural economic activity. It makes a strong rural economic contribution. Importantly, it makes a strong social contribution as well and it is a key part of many communities. My final point is crucial. Ireland has an incredibly strong reputation for the horse. We need to mind and nurture that reputation. We are going the wrong way about it at the moment. If we continue to go in the direction we are going, one half of the whole horse tradition of Ireland is going to be wiped out. That would be a great pity.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will put a question to the group. Mr. Power mentioned the fact that we are not attracting competitions. I presume that is because of our infrastructure. Will the Irish Sport Horse Alliance members give the committee an idea of the type of infrastructure in place at the moment and what would be required to bring it up to a standard that would attract competition?

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

I will give the question to Mr. Broderick. He will explain how many horses we have abroad, why they are abroad and so on.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What type of competitions are we talking about? The Dublin Horse Show is the biggest competition we have at the moment. What else do we have?

Mr. Greg Broderick:

We have five international events in the season altogether over the 52 weeks. Millstreet has a two-star international. The number of stars of the show indicate the prize money on offer, with five-star being the biggest, for example, the Dublin Horse Show, and one-star being the smallest. We have two-star shows in Mullingar and Balmoral. We have a two-star show in Millstreet, a five-star show in Dublin and a one-star show in Cavan in November. Basically, there are five shows in the year where people can ride at international level.

World ranking is relevant. A competitor can only win world ranking points in competitions that are 1.45 m or above and the classes have to be worth €25,000 plus. Basically, it is difficult to win world ranking points in Ireland at a horse show. There is only one ranking class in Millstreet, one in Mullingar, one in Balmoral and none in Cavan, because it is a one-star event. There are some classes in Dublin because it is five-star event. It is particularly difficult for a competitor to base himself in Ireland and stay in the world rankings.

This is something we need to look at if we are to have better show centres with better services. The price of horses nowadays that are in competition at that high standard is relevant. The last thing a competitor wants to do is jump his horse on a poor surface. If people are investing in a competitor and his horse to ride at that level, the last thing the competitor wants to do is jeopardise the investment and jump on facilities or surfaces that are not up to scratch or without the basics. Unfortunately, as silly as it sounds, the facilities and surfaces are far behind in 95% of the show centres throughout the country.

Earlier in the year, in January, I went to the sunshine tour in Spain to produce some of my older horses as well as some of my younger horses. I brought 37 horses to the show in Spain. It was a major operation to move there. I would gladly have left 20 of my horses at home to compete with some of my staff and riders in Ireland if there were better facilities and surfaces here. I am recently home from Vilamoura in Portugal. We had 22 horses at the show in Portugal. We were gone for six weeks altogether. Again, I would gladly have left more than half, perhaps 14 or 15, of the horses at home to do some of the shows in Ireland. Obviously, it costs me. It is far more expensive to put them in trucks and bring them that far. Unfortunately, the shows and good surfaces needed to produce the standard of horses I am trying to keep in Ireland are simply not up to scratch, so I am being forced to go to Europe with the horses.

These events in Europe have people who are at the shows because of the nice facilities. They include agents who are trying to find horses or dealers who have clients looking for horses. They will go to the nice show centres to find horses. Unfortunately, there are not enough of those shows in Ireland for people to bring such clients here. They opt more for Europe and the sunshine tours like those in Portugal and Spain.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will bring in Deputy Cahill presently. The Irish Sport Horse Alliance representatives referenced a figure of €100 million. Is that the figure required to bring these facilities up to five-star standard?

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

All moneys would go through one body, which is Horse Sport Ireland. That has been restructured, as Mr. Power pointed out earlier. All money would be directed into one body, like HSI, which would distribute it. HSI has four sections, including training, competition, breeding and education and infrastructure grants. That is what the money is for. We envisage it would take €20 million to resource Horse Sport Ireland and have infrastructure grants.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What would it cost to bring the venues, including Millstreet - I would have thought Millstreet was one of the top-class facilities in the country - Mullingar and Cavan, up to the level of Dublin?

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

We are talking about €30 million over the next five years. That should be spread out over the top five centres and, to a lesser level, the feeder centres underneath them. They do not have to be identified. It is not to say that if we got money in the morning we would give it out directly. There would have to be a transparent process.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. I would imagine that Millstreet and Mullingar and so on would have to come up to a given standard to attract foreign competitors and so on.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Millstreet and Mullingar attract foreign competitors at the moment but, like the business model for racing, prize money is what they need above all at the moment.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Irish Sport Horse Alliance representatives for the presentation. It raised numerous issues that we need to address. I was given a question on Horse Sport Ireland by Deputy Darragh O'Brien this morning. We met Irish Sport Horse Alliance representatives some months ago and they made a presentation to us. Horse Sport Ireland is a limited company. Will the Irish Sport Horse Alliance representatives explain the structure? Bord na gCon and Horse Racing Ireland are semi-State bodies. Why was there a departure for Horse Sport Ireland? The Irish Sport Horse Alliance has been set up as a voluntary group. In fairness, the alliance is not describing itself as being in opposition to Horse Sport Ireland. Why are Horse Sport Ireland representatives not sitting before the committee today making these points? HSI is the governing body or the ruling body for the industry. I am not questioning the bona fides of Mr. O'Connor but I am trying to get to the heart of the issue. We have Irish Sport Horse Alliance, which is a voluntary group. I fully accept that. Mr. Broderick is a neighbour of mine and I know his facilities well. He has a superb training establishment beside Thurles. It is a credit to the Broderick family.

The public perception is that our showjumping teams are starting to do better internationally. That is the perception. We went through a trough when we were unable to compete at the highest level. My perception is that now we are becoming successful. I read somewhere that a large number of jockeys or riders rode internationally for Ireland last year. There could be five or six per team at a show, yet the teams had multiples of that number riding internationally. Obviously, the riders all have their own horses. How many of those horses are Irish-bred? There was a time when almost every horse in a show with an Irish rider was Irish-bred. What percentage is not sourced here?

The Irish Sport Horse Alliance representatives did not mention eventing too much in the presentation. Does the market for eventing horses have the same issues as showjumping? At the trials in Badminton and other places we see the odd Irish competitor. The Irish team completed successfully internationally there in eventing recently. Do the same problems arise with eventing in terms of structure and prize money, being able to compete at international level, and the breeding of the horses?

Let us go back to funding and the hub of the issue. For Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon there is a 4:1 split in what the Government gives. The Irish Sport Horse Alliance produced a graph in the brochure given to us.

It shows the horse industry in Ireland at €64 million, the greyhound industry at €16 million, and the sport horse sector at €3.96 million.

Both of those industries would make the point that they have a betting tax that generates income for the Exchequer. They argue that is why they are getting this money back into their industry and that it is self-financing. The Irish Sport Horse Alliance does not have the vehicle to do that. Is Horse Sport Ireland looking for some of that 80:20 split to make it a three-way split rather than a two-way split? No one can argue with the figures the witnesses have given for the number of people employed, the generation of income and the potential of the industry. The other two industries would defend their position very vigorously. Is that where Horse Sport Ireland wants to source the income to promote its industry?

The Dublin Horse Show is world-renowned and we all go and enjoy our day out. It is probably the only day most of us will go to a showjumping event. Mr. Broderick said he was in Portugal for the past six weeks. Will the Irish Sport Horse Alliance be able to attract the top-flight riders here if there are these four or five top events in the year? Horse racing tracks such as Punchestown and Leopardstown have grade 1 races which will be targeted. I suppose it is down to our success on the racing front that not many horses come across the water to run in Irish races irrespective of how valuable they are. It may be that we have become so successful - we are able to go over and win 17 races in Cheltenham - that there is not much point in them coming to try to win races here in Punchestown. Will the Irish Sport Horse Alliance be able to attract the top-flight riders here when they have their own European circuit?

I fully appreciate how the Irish Sport Horse Alliance is trying to promote its industry. Will the witnesses flesh out some of the things said so that we can try to put a structure in place to get agreement on a way forward?

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will have all the questions first, if that is acceptable.

Michelle Mulherin (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses. I am delighted that the Irish Sport Horse Alliance has taken this initiative and has commissioned this report. Mr. Power outlined the challenge with the industry being fragmented. In the view of the public it is also fragmented in the value that it brings. I come from a part of the country where horse sports are all around. However, what it is delivering to the local economy is not immediately obvious by comparison with other farming, such as beef farming. Therefore, this is a very worthwhile exercise. I can see great potential. There is a labour of love when dealing with sport horses, as is very evident in my part of the country. This is a good start.

The Chairman asked some very pertinent questions which explained some of what is being requested. The witnesses have pointed to the need to upgrade facilities which are substandard and pose a challenge to those involved and to the well-being of the horses when they compete there. The witnesses spoke about education, training and upgrading facilities. When they speak of prize money, are they suggesting they should get money from the State to provide prize money for competitions? Is that how it is done in the Netherlands? Is that the sort of model needed to attract international showjumpers?

On the education and training side, how much interface is there with current systems like apprenticeships? There is a big debate about apprenticeships at the moment. Are Irish Sport Horse Alliance apprenticeships formally recognised and supported by the Department? Does further work need to be done to flesh out these things?

The witnesses named the top five, but how many show centres are there? Where is the one closest to the west? Does the plan focus on strategic regional centres to develop, or is it more widespread?

We have been given figures for the number of people involved in the industry, but how many people are involved in the alliance? How many people subscribe in an active way to what is being proposed here? While I am sure they would all welcome it, how many people have come together to give the Irish Sport Horse Alliance a mandate to go for it? This spills out on the ground, so to speak, to politicians. If I go to a horse show in an area, for example, in Mayo, will all people say that this is what they need for their industry? Does such cohesion exist?

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses. What is the corporate buy-in for all this? If the Irish Sport Horse Alliance had the money in the morning, is there potential for matching funding from the corporate side? Although it is not specifically a requirement of State funding, the industry will never get a handout unless it has some form of matching funding. Where does the Irish Sport Horse Alliance envisage getting the balance of what it needs even if it got what it is seeking? How does it envisage additional funding being generated if its request for Government input were to be met?

While the presentation indicated the Irish Sport Horse Alliance did not want comparisons, the horse racing side has betting tax and the tote. It has what I call matching funding. If the Irish Sport Horse Alliance got the infrastructure it deserves and desires, what additional income could be created beyond what it is generating at the moment?

This study has been done by people who are ensconced in the industry. How is it funded in other countries? We are talking predominantly about showjumping. I would probably only watch the Aga Khan trophy competition. Countries such as Brazil, USA, Canada, the Netherlands and Germany participate. What kind of model operates in those countries? What state funding do they get?

I have an interest in horse breeding and the thoroughbred side of things. How is the lack of funding affecting our breeding and our reputation? Ireland is a world leader in horse breeding across the board. From what I have heard today, it cannot be helping the cause. How can that be turned back to where we would like to be as a horse-breeding nation?

We are talking mainly about showjumping, but the Irish Sport Horse Alliance represents all horse sport. Does that include harness racing? Is that on the thoroughbred side or is it somewhere in between? Representatives of harness racing have appeared before the committee in looking for a piece of the pie. Does the Irish Sport Horse Alliance work with them or are they under the Irish Sport Horse Alliance umbrella? I know they are not under the HRI umbrella. Is harness racing a third entity?

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. They have brought us some very interesting information and provided more detail than we would normally have. I was brought up in the little village of Belmont in west Offaly. There was horse breeding going on there so I was aware of the potential of the sector. Darragh Kenny is from that area and is doing very well internationally.

I will stick with the local. The entrepreneur, Emma-Rose Conroy, founded Euro Stallions and it is fantastic to see all this happening. The information is disparate and making it hard to focus and see how much information is there. The Irish Sport Horse Alliance has done a great service in producing its report. Has the alliance sent this report to Horse Sport Ireland?

Undoubtedly, such a sharing of information would be of assistance to Horse Sport Ireland.

Who is the driver of investment in additional facilities? The various venues at which showjumping takes place have been mentioned. Who would spend the funding were it provided?

Why is there such a disparity in the funding for the Irish Sport Horse Alliance, Horse Racing Ireland, Bord na gCon and Horse Sport Ireland, particularly given the pride that we all take in their successes? In terms of developing elite athletes, what relationship do our guests have with Olympic Ireland? Is there a special funding stream to help someone who has been identified as a potential Olympic gold medal winner to reach his or her potential?

Mr. Broderick mentioned the facilities in Belgium. If he had a magic wand, what would he create here? Would it be a single amazing facility or several facilities throughout the country?

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of the progression of young riders, I am intrigued to know how far down the chain the Irish Sport Horse Alliance goes, for example, to pony clubs. How much involvement or input into, and how much money would it invest in, the development of young riders who start on ponies and work their way up? A friend of mine whose daughter liked ponies told me once that a pony was just a stopgap for her between toys and boys. What plan does the Irish Sport Horse Alliance have to bring her beyond the boys and keep her interested in the pony before moving on to the horse?

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I also have a question. Who owns the five venues, including Millstreet, Mullingar and Cavan, that were mentioned? Obviously, we know who owns the RDS. Are the others private-----

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

They are privately held.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Mr. O'Connor can reply to the other questions when he is ready.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

I will start with the couple of questions on Horse Sport Ireland. When we initiated our contact with the Minister and the Department, the first job of work that the former said he had to do was examine the structure of Horse Sport Ireland, bring it up to date and modernise it as a body. We liaised with Indecon on the restructuring of Horse Sport Ireland, making it more fit for purpose and making it more transparent where Government payments to it were concerned. The Minister appoints three members of the board as well as the chairperson and is responsible for signing off on the hiring of the CEO.

We work and liaise with Horse Sport Ireland constantly. We are all involved in various training programmes with it, so we are not in any way split from it or against it. There is no rivalry whatsoever. Before it was reorganised, we came together as a group to put together an economic mandate, which was missing from the sports horse industry for years. That was our fault as well. We are not here to try to find Ministers, Governments or Departments on which to place blame. Our industry has since been organised and our structure is up to date. Horse Sport Ireland asked for €13.1 million to start its education, breeding, prize money and infrastructure programmes. We got an extra €500,000, bringing us up to €3 million. I do not know what we can do with that.

As to whether we want, or it is feasible for us, to be covered by the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund, where the Minister gets the money from is up to him, but we would not want to be seen to be taking money from bodies that are established in that fund. Getting into it is not one of our goals, but we do need money from somewhere. That is a question for the Minister.

On a relevant point, we are trying to emulate what the racehorse industry has done. It is an unbelievable product and, as Irish people, we are not proud enough of it. We hear stories about so and so being worth so much and winning this or that money or about there being three main owners, but those are problems that will only last for a couple of seasons and then it will be something else. It is one of Ireland's three best products. As three showjumpers, we are immensely proud of what Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine have done with racing. It is incredible. When we are abroad, people ask us about it. We are an island off the coast of Europe that has the best trainer in the world, the best racehorse in the world and some of the leading studs in the world.

The Minister and civil servants at our meetings were adamant that they would pay one body, which would then distribute all of the funds, namely, Horse Sport Ireland. Any funding stream will come from it. That is important, as we need to tie the high-performance sport into breeding, centres, pony clubs, statistics and databases. It should all be in one place, as the sector is not big enough to have separate bodies. That is why we support all funding going to and coming from Horse Sport Ireland.

There was a question about Irish-bred sport horses and eventers. I would like to hand that over to Mr. O'Neill, who is more qualified to discuss whether they have the same problems as showjumpers and whether investment in prize money facilities would have a return for the economy.

Mr. Ger O'Neill:

I used to event up to a world cup level. Events around the country have a different structure. For example, they do not need the same facilities as us because many of their events are held on grass. However, they definitely need a greater prize fund. For the first time, Irish riders on Irish horses have won medals at a very high level. We have been exporting many of our best horses around the world. For 19 years, they have been number one in eventing. As such, eventers are like showjumpers in that they need more money. A greater prize fund is something that they could do with as much as facilities.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

We were asked whether, if we had the prize money and facilities in the morning, international riders would come to Ireland. I will hand that question over to Mr. Broderick, who has a number of international clients with him for training.

Mr. Greg Broderick:

We would of course get more international riders coming to Ireland if the prize money was better. More importantly, if the facilities and surfaces were improved, we could produce our horses to a higher standard. We are lacking in that respect at the minute. If that happens, the horses will be worth more money. Having better facilities available raises the bar for everything, for example, production and the standard of riding. It would have a domino effect.

I finished at the Vilamoura Equestrian Centre ten days ago and then spent eight days in Holland, Belgium, Germany and France looking for new horses. When I visited some of the very good breeding stables, I noticed that they were working with many international riders. When one tries to buy their best bred horses, they do not want to sell them. They are happy to keep them because the animals are working alongside Belgian or French international riders and the stables will sell them to those riders when the horses are old enough. Thanks to a considerable amount of investment, there is a network of good show facilities within two or three hours of the stables where they can do a great deal of their work. Many international riders are basing themselves around that infrastructure because it allows them to train well and work alongside breeders. When international riders take on horses, the better riders base themselves around those facilities.

They can produce the horses to a higher standard. When foreign customers come from places like the Middle East, the United States or Canada, they do not want horses that are not produced well. They want horses that are well ridden and well produced, and they want the facilities there for them to do that. Those horses are being sold for a lot of money and the money then trickles down the line to the breeders, who are able to invest in better mares and better stallions, and pay better stud fees. As the horses are being well procured to a higher standard, this raises the bar of everything else, so they are able to use a better type of mare or stallion, and to hold tough and give the horses international riders.

Unfortunately, the problem in Ireland is that the facilities and better prize money are not available, so the riders we see winning gold medals in the European championships on ponies or at junior level, like myself when I was 21, are all leaving Ireland and are in Europe and America, where horses are being produced to a higher standard. There is a bit of a breakdown between the breeders and those international riders, which is definitely affecting the business. If we had better facilities and better prize money in Ireland, we would keep a better standard of rider and produce horses to a better standard, which without question would have a domino effect down the line.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The issue of prize money comes up regularly. Who provides the prize money at the moment? What is the typical prize money for a main event in Millstreet or Mullingar and how does that compare with a similar event in Holland or Belgium?

Mr. Greg Broderick:

At those two-star shows we spoke about, at Mullingar, Balmoral and Millstreet, there would be a prize fund of €25,000 just for the Grand Prix. I competed in some two-star shows in Portugal in recent weeks and throughout the week, from Thursday to Sunday, there were three €25,000 classes at what was the same type of two-star show. In Ireland a rider just gets one bite at the cherry as there is one €25,000 class, which shows the difference. I asked how it is funded in Portugal and they said the tourism board and the Government help a lot in providing the money because it brings many riders to the show and there are spin-offs all around the area.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who provides the prize money here at present?

Mr. Greg Broderick:

It comes from the show organisers.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is sponsorship.

Mr. Greg Broderick:

Yes.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

The Chairman asked about corporate buy-in. I would see any grants for infrastructure as being on a 50:50 basis. Prize funds are done in the same way as for racing, in that one would have to come up with a percentage oneself. I will ask Mr. Power to talk about this shortly.

I was asked about apprenticeship schemes. We do not have apprenticeship schemes or a cohesive training programme at the moment, although some programmes are run by Teagasc and different colleges. We have a very good training programme for riding skills but if a farmer wants to diversify income on a small holding, there is no business course they can do which is similar to the green certificate that is done when inheriting a farm. We do not have any of that type of education such as there are in different areas of agriculture.

Mr. Power is best placed to answer on where the Government has used public funds for infrastructure grants to private individuals in a way that has trickled down into the local economy.

Mr. Jim Power:

It is important to point out, when we are comparing ourselves in an international context, that Ireland has obvious geographical disadvantages. It costs more to transport horses here whereas, on the European circuit, for example, in Belgium, Holland, Germany and France, it is easy enough to get around and is relatively cheap. That places us at a disadvantage and means we have to run a lot faster to try to catch up or to stay up with the others. As I see it, we are not doing that and we are slipping back.

If we accept there is potential for this industry to make a significantly greater contribution, which from a rural and economic development point of view is very important, the State would be justified in intervening where there is this sort of market failure. Facilities are the most important thing. If we create the correct facilities, we will get the top riders here. I was going to use the analogy of the horse before the cart, but it would probably be inappropriate. If we are running top quality competitions with top facilities, we will get top quality riders and that will feed into the generation of the revenues that will fund the prize money. Developing the facilities and creating top quality competition are very important.

I was asked where the State has intervened in similar areas. I would point to the investment by the IDA in facilities which it provides to multinationals in order to create employment. It is the same sort of structure in that one facilitates businesses that will generate economic activity that will generate employment that will generate tax revenues.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With regard to the breeding area, why was Horse Sport Ireland set up as a limited company rather than as a semi-State body?

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

I do not speak for Horse Sport Ireland. I believe its new chairperson, Mr. Joe Reynolds, will be making a presentation, so it would be more appropriate for him to answer that question.

We have meandered with our purposes for years. I have never heard a Minister, a Department official or a head of any administrative body talk about jobs and exports, which is interesting. I did some research and watched some old tapes of people making presentations here. Most people have those figures. We are a very old industry but we have done it ourselves, as individuals. It is time for us to come together and harness that for the good of the Exchequer and of all the people involved. We have talked about the high end of sport, high-end international show jumpers and high-end prize money. High performance sport encourages local activity and encourages people to get involved and to participate. However, if one is granting money to a centre, there is a tie-in. In the Netherlands, when the local authority gave money to the local centre, it had to employ local people and give jobs locally, for example, the part-time jobs that arise when there are events. There was buy-in from the centre to the local area and from the local area to the centre. That would be very important going forward.

Michelle Mulherin (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Mr. Power looked at a possible funding stream under the rural development programme?

Mr. Jim Power:

No, I have not.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

We have heard this a few times. We have been asked why we do not ask the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport or some other Department. This is a bit of a problem. It is like passing the ball or passing the parcel.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The rural development programme comes under the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine due to CAP reform.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

As a body, it should all go to the one place. When we are talking high performance, we are thinking how we can get jobs and exports. Every euro the Department gives to us or to Horse Sport Ireland should be converted into inward investment, jobs and exports, and nothing else. It is not for people's enjoyment. It is to create the multiplier effect for the good of the Exchequer.

Michelle Mulherin (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is part of the objective of the rural development programme to develop alternatives outside conventional farming. It would match what the Sports Horse Alliance is trying to do and it is co-funded by the Government and the EU.

Mr. Jim Power:

I am sorry. I misinterpreted the Senator's question. I thought she said "world development programme". I beg her pardon. I have looked at the rural development programme and it would definitely be a fit. There is no doubt that it works to diversify the whole rural economy and adds value.

Given the discussion we have just had about beef prices in the last session, for example, the pressure on beef farmers and what is happening on the tillage side, there is no doubt that there is a need for rural diversification. Many small farms could generate meaningful economic entities in this area.

Michelle Mulherin (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had a couple of questions to which I did not hear answers.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will get to Deputy Corcoran Kennedy now and I will let the Senator back in shortly.

Michelle Mulherin (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wanted one of these big centres in the west. That is all. Nobody told me that was part of the plan.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are over-parochial today. Deputy Corcoran Kennedy's question was on the driver of additional facilities.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And whether this report has gone to Horse Sport Ireland.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Olympic Council of Ireland.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I mentioned the Olympic Council of Ireland in respect of the identification of potential elite jumpers. If there was an ideal facility, where might it be and what would it be like?

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

With regard to Horse Sport Ireland we have used a lot of its figures in this report. One of the Deputy's question was if we had sent the report there. Yes we have and we liaise with Horse Sport Ireland all of the time. On the question about the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport gives some funding to Horse Sport Ireland for podium funding. This is for championships, world games and the Olympics. They work with them but on a results basis, in order to gain results in the sport internationally. The chairman of Horse Sport Ireland will be able to make a better presentation.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Olympic Council of Ireland recognise Greg Broderick, for example, as an elite athlete and does it prioritise him - or whoever it may be - going forward for extra facilities, extra funding or extra training as with boxers? A number of boxers are in high-level special training and get some extra facilities and funding, as do some of the athletes. Are the showjumpers not treated in the same way?

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

I do not think so.

Mr. Greg Broderick:

I have not heard of it before from the Olympic Council of Ireland in respect of showjumpers. There are initiatives from within Horse Sport Ireland, such as training days.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It had some success over the years.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a disparity between the funding of Horse Sport Ireland and Horse Racing Ireland, which is quite significant. Horse Sport Ireland gets €2.5 million, which is going up to €3 million. In contrast, Horse Racing Ireland receives more than €67 million, and Bord na gCon gets over €17 million. How do we account for that huge disparity? Has Mr. Power looked at that issue or has anybody?

Mr. Jim Power:

I have. I remember being asked a question on a radio show many years ago about the preferential tax treatment for the thoroughbred sector. For once I said that I could not answer that question because I did not know the answer. I went away and did a lot of work on it. I looked at Coolmore Stud. I grew up in the neighbouring county to Coolmore Stud, which was just across the river. Coolmore is an incredible contributor to the local economy in south Tipperary. It is amazing. It is a world-class facility and it makes a huge contribution to the local economy such as paying premium prices to farmers for hay and straw. The advantage that the greyhound and the thoroughbred sector has is that they are very narrow and well defined sectors that have always had a very united voice. The sectors work together and it is one small and narrowly defined industry in both cases, whereas the sport horse sector consists of everything from a small equestrian centre in a rural village in Waterford to what we see in the Royal Dublin Society in August, and everything in between. That is the problem. There was never a united approach or a united voice. I worked very closely with Horse Sport Ireland in the compilation of this report. I spoke with them a lot throughout the whole process. I would be very surprised if Horse Sport Ireland had a problem with anything in this report. We are all on board and there is a much more united approach now. The restructuring of the board of Horse Sport Ireland is a major step in the right direction. I would hope that with a stronger voice and with a much more united approach, the sport horse sector would be able to go some way towards emulating the world-class industry we have in the thoroughbred sector. That should be the sort of utopian vision we have for the horse sport sector, at least from an external perspective looking in.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In relation to the facilities, are the representatives thinking of something brand new or investing in existing arenas that are there already as are outlined here?

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

We discussed this earlier today before we came in. We are talking about refurbishing places that are there at the moment. One might ask why we have not done that already from an economic point of view. Horse Sport Ireland was set up some ten or 12 years ago with a promise of funding and then along came the big crash and there was no funding available and so on. A lot of people moved out of the industry to get jobs abroad. We missed a step but it is a chicken and egg situation and we have to get in front of it. I would refurbish a lot of the places that are there and maybe do some new buildings. The people we have identified have a track record of running an equestrian centre through the recession and these are the types of people one needs to carry it on for another ten or 20 years.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reason I ask this is because the sports capital grant fund that has been allocated in recent years has had large funds allocated for various regional facilities. It strikes me that potentially that could be a good way to fund.

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

We cannot access it.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witnesses cannot access it.

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

No, because privately-owned centres are on private property.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would not go along with that. I would question that.

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

It has to be on public owned property. It has been questioned by a lot of people more persuasive than me.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us check the small print there. I would beg to differ but we will not go into it here.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the group have any relationship with the Irish Harness Racing Association or are the organisations under the one umbrella? We had the harness racing representatives before the committee. They were also looking for seed funding and it had a pretty similar presentation. Does that organisation come under the umbrella of Horse Sport Ireland?

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

I have talked with the head of that body. The Irish Harness Racing Association is a member of Horse Sport Ireland but not a member of our group, Sport Horse Alliance. It is a separate asset. To be honest I find it odd that they are with Horse Sport Ireland because I thought they should be in a betting structure such as Horse Racing Ireland. It is odd that they are with Horse Sport Ireland.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sport Horse Alliance had some communication with them.

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

Some communication such as a couple of phone calls.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am thinking on my feet here. Both groups have been here to give similar presentations and both have looked for seed funding so would the Sport Horse Alliance perhaps see the merits or potential in a joint venture? They are looking to buy a track.

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

Yes.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could there be the potential for a state of the art jumping arena in the centre of the track if the groups were to put their heads together?

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

To be honest one should never say no, but we already have five and to answer the Senator truthfully, I do not see it. There are two different breeds of horses and-----

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I can appreciate that but they are still horses. We have talked already about the thoroughbred and the sport horses, and these are a third one.

Mr. Barry O?Connor:

We want to refurbish what we have. It is very important to stay with the people and the companies that have run the equestrian centres. They have a proven track record. There have been a few investments in past years where they went on to the new people who had a new idea and it never worked. The centres that are there currently, which we have identified, have fairly good business skills to take on the funding. They know what the market needs, they invest properly and spend the money properly and sustain it over the next ten to 20 years.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that totally. At the outset, when the Sport Horse Alliance was giving its figures I thought the representatives were almost shooting themselves in the foot because if the sector is doing so well why does it need the money?

The organisation is run well. I understand its need for additional funding. It is a credit to everybody involved that the figures mentioned have been achieved with little funding. In view of the fact that no greenfield site has been identified, however, the organisation might encounter difficulties getting around some of the issues, particularly those relating to private ownership.

Mr. Jim Power:

Structures would have to be agreed before any State funding could be provided.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Prize money and infrastructure were mentioned. There are a lot of other areas that need funding, including breeder education and education databases for business start-up for young people who want to work on the sport side, namely, stable staff, grooms and so on. It is important to make the point that it is not all about prize money and infrastructure.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The infrastructure would be crucial to attract competition to the country.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Yes, it is important but spending is also needed in the context of education and training.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Connor mentioned earlier that a large number of riders jumped internationally last year.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Yes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Upwards of 20 jumped internationally for various teams.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Approximately 27 jumped in the various nations cup. Overall, however, there are probably about 40 who jump internationally. I am speaking only about showjumping because that is our area.

Mr. Ger O'Neill:

Very few are Irish-based.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

A handful are Irish-based.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Connor said that approximately 27 jumped in nations cups. I presume those riders each have two or three international horses.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Yes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many of the horses are Irish bred?

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Approximately ten.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That shows why we need to invest in and focus on this industry. There was a time when an Irish rider would always ride an Irish bred horse. I am not criticising the riders because I understand they have to go where they can source top class horses but it shows where we have slipped.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

It does. Activity funds interest and interest has a trickle down effect. Five or six high standard international shows in Ireland will attract breeders and so on.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do we have the foundation stock to breed international horses?

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

Mr. Broderick is best placed to answer that question.

Mr. Greg Broderick:

The breeding industry needs help. Breeders need more education. As Mr. O'Connor said, the trickle-down effect of better standard facilities and prize money would be fewer riders leaving the country, better produced horses, a better standard of riders and, also, horses could be sold for more money, as currently happens in Holland, Belgium and Germany. We are not able to do this as well in Ireland because we do not have the facilities available to us. If we had better facilities and prize money we would retain a better standard of rider in the country and produce horses to a better standard and this will trickle down the line.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do we have the mares to do it?

Mr. Greg Broderick:

If a person hears that a horse has been sold for a certain amount of money, he or she might ignore it. If he or she hears it twice, three times or four times, however, he or she might be encouraged to get involved in breeding the type of horses that can attract that type of money. I attend the foal sales at Goresbridge and Cavan. I can assure the committee the business is flying. Breeding showjumping horses is currently one of the best businesses across Europe in which a person can be involved. People in Ireland need to understand this and to not be afraid to invest in it. When I go to the foal sales, I meet farmers and breeders. I have noted a disconnect between them. They do not get to meet enough of the top riders because they are not in the country. Some of the foals are not well enough bred and so they are being sold for small amounts of money and this is upsetting the farmers and breeders. As stated, if we had better facilities and prize money, we would be able to keep the better riders in the country. We do have the best riders in the world. If we put on bigger and better shows, some of them will come here and that will raise the bar. There is massive potential in this area. We need to invest in the facilities and prize money. As I said, that would raise the bar. If breeders see a better standard of horse being produced and sold for more money they will get behind it.

As we were coming into this meeting there was an online auction underway in Belgium for embryos from some of the good mares in Europe. The price for one of the embryos was set at €48,000. If that happened once or twice in Ireland, people would get behind the industry and instead of all of the Irish lads riding horses bred in the Netherlands, Belgium or wherever, they could want to ride the Irish horses. Ireland is the best place in the world to raise a horse. We have the best land and we are great horse people. The industry needs a helping hand to raise the bar.

Mr. Barry O'Connor:

There is a lot of talk about market decline. We have no problem with our markets or the price of our product. The price of our product is reflective of our training and so on. We will take responsibility for that. Most other sectors need help in that area but we do not. The areas in which we need help are those outlined earlier.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. O'Connor, Mr. Broderick, Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Power for their useful presentations. We will send a transcript of this meeting to the Minister, with whom we will also engage on the matter when he comes before the committee next week to discuss the horse and greyhound industry.