Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 26 September 2018

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs

Tackling Childhood Obesity: Discussion (Resumed)

9:30 am

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses to this meeting where we continue our hearings on the topic of tackling childhood obesity. We will have presentations from representatives of the Departments of Children and Youth Affairs, Health and Education and Skills. I welcome to the meeting Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks, principal officer, early years policy and research, Department of Children and Youth Affairs; Ms Ruth Doggett, Ms Kate O'Flaherty, director of health and well-being programme, and Mr. Liam McCormack, assistant principal officer, Department of Health; and Mr. Eamon Cusack, principal officer, and Ms Rita Sexton, assistant principal officer, Department of Education and Skills. I welcome members and viewers who may be watching our proceedings on Oireachtas television to the public session of this committee.

I will read the note on privilege, which the witnesses may have heard before. Before we commence, in accordance with procedure, I am required to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones, which may interfere with the sound system and television coverage which is being streamed.

I advise our witnesses that any submissions or opening statements they make to the committee will be published on the committee's website. I am sure they are familiar with that fact. After the presentations there will be questions from members. There is a lot going on inside and outside the Houses today so unfortunately a few members are unable to attend this morning but the witnesses can rest assured the rest of us will have plenty of questions and we will have good interaction.

I call on Dr. Brooks to make her opening statement.

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

I thank the committee for this opportunity to present to the committee today on the matter of tackling childhood obesity. The committee will be aware of Better Outcomes Brighter Futures, the national policy framework for children and young people, which was launched in 2014. This whole-of-Government policy framework identifies a range of measures to improve outcomes for children and young people, including measures to address childhood obesity. Since its publication and through its implementation structures, childhood obesity has been identified as a priority for cross-sectoral action. The Department of Health leads on this with the support of other Departments, including the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. Better Outcomes Brighter Futures has facilitated new opportunities to strengthen cross-sectoral engagement and buy-in, in particular through the children and young people’s services committees around the country.

The Department of Children and Youth Affairs is committed to supporting the Department of Health with this and its wider work in the area. The Department was delighted to be able to assist the Department of Health in the development of the obesity policy by facilitating children and young people to input to and shape its content. The Department of Children and Youth Affairs is represented on the oversight group that has been established to oversee the implementation of this policy. It is also represented on the healthy eating sub-group.

I will concentrate on areas relevant to the Department, which it has progressed. As the Department with lead responsibility for early childhood education and care, ECEC, we recognise we have a role to play in ensuring that publicly funded ECEC services seize the opportunities they are presented with to positively influence children’s outcomes. We know for children attending these services on a full-time basis in particular that ECEC provides a very significant proportion of a child's daily food intake, as much as 70%. We also know that the universal free preschool programme, ECCE, is availed of by 96% of children in this country from the age of two years and eight months and provides a very significant opportunity to influence healthy eating habits from this early stage.

We have in place regulations, which stipulate that services must ensure that all children in attendance at ECEC services receive a nutritious diet, which takes account of individual needs and preferences. The Tusla early years inspectorate inspects against these regulations. Under these regulations, ECEC services are required to develop a policy on healthy eating in line with resources developed by the Department of Health, the HSE and Safefood, specifically food and nutrition guidelines, serving size guidelines and a sample three-week menu plan.

Síolta, the national quality framework for ECEC, also recognises the importance of proactively promoting the development of healthy eating habits in children while supporting their enjoyment and appreciation of eating as a positive social experience. Within these standards, services are encouraged to inform children and raise awareness with parents and families about healthy eating.

Increasing play and activity are key elements in the treatment and prevention of childhood obesity and, under the regulations, ECEC services must also promote safe physical play and activity, both indoors and out. The Department of Children and Youth Affairs has administered a number of annual capital grant schemes for ECEC services to support the purchase of outdoor play equipment to encourage outdoor play and activity.

More broadly, since its establishment in 2011, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs has supported play and recreation by establishing the local authority play and recreation network to bring a more co-ordinated approach to supporting play and recreation at local level; providing annual funding for play and recreation initiatives, including support for the annual national play day and national recreation weeks that raise the profile of play and recreation at a local level; and administering the Department of Children and Youth Affairs capital grant scheme for play and recreation to support the development or refurbishment of play and recreation facilities.

In recognition of the importance of early childhood for laying the foundations for later development, where positive behaviours such as a healthy diet and weight are established, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs has, in partnership with Atlantic Philanthropies, progressed a range of prevention and early intervention initiatives. These have added to the evidence base on how to improve children’s outcomes and, in particular, how to tackle childhood obesity. The evaluation of one particular initiative, Preparing for Life, found that at age four, children in that programme were less likely to be overweight. Of the children of families receiving this programme, 23% were overweight at 48 months, compared with 41% of children who did not receive it. Work on mainstreaming the learning from this and other initiatives is now under way with the support of Tusla.

The Department of Children and Youth Affairs is in the process of finalising the national strategy for babies, young children and their families. This ten-year strategy will focus on the first years of a child’s life. As with Better Outcomes Brighter Futures, one of the goals of the strategy will focus on children’s health and the issue of childhood obesity will be given priority. We have been working very closely with the Department of Health to identify potential actions to add to the very significant programme of work already committed to under the obesity policy. Among the areas for consideration are strengthening the role played by parents and families and the wider community, including ECEC services, where early development unfolds for most children. The strategy will be published by the end of this year.

I thank the committee for its time and attention and I will be happy to discuss any of the issues raised.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present to it on this important topic, which is a major public health priority. The committee will be aware of the Government’s national obesity policy and action plan, which was launched in 2016 under the auspices of the Healthy Ireland agenda. The policy, which takes a whole-system approach and covers a ten-year period up to 2025 was developed with a high degree of consultation, including, as Dr. Brooks mentioned, with children and young people. Childhood obesity is a key priority under the obesity policy, as is reducing the inequalities we see in obesity rates, where children and adults from lower socioeconomic groups have higher levels of obesity than those in better off groups in society.

While recent data suggest there may be a stabilisation in the increasing levels of overweight and obesity in children and adults, and any positive direction in the trends is welcome, there is no room for complacency.

Being a healthy weight is no longer the norm in our adult population and the obesity policy seeks to drive a society-wide change in norms around healthy lifestyles and healthy environments to prevent a significant range of health complications that come with obesity, and to reduce the overall burden for individuals, families, the health system and the wider society and economy.

I will concentrate on reporting to the committee some of the early progress and priorities in implementing the obesity policy. As with all our work under Healthy Ireland, cross-departmental and cross-sectoral co-operation is fundamental to our approach to implementation. This involves in particular working with the other two Government Departments, representatives of which are here today, and also with the Department of Rural and Community Development, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, as well as local authorities, the health services, the education sector and, increasingly and most important, engaging with citizens and communities across the country.

The Department of Health has established an obesity policy implementation oversight group comprising officials from a range of other Departments as well as key academic and health agency representation. Sub-groups on reformulation of food and drink and on healthy eating have been established as initial priority areas for action. Work has commenced on a roadmap for reformulation of foods and drinks to reduce their sugar and fat content and engagement with the food and retail industry is and will be a key factor in delivering on that.

In addition, a voluntary code of practice for food and beverage promotion, marketing and sponsorship has been developed involving representatives from the food industry, advertising sector, statutory agencies and various Government Departments. The code was published in February and work is under way to operationalise it.

The committee will be aware that a sugar-sweetened drinks tax commenced on 1 May 2018 and work is under way between the Department of Health and the Department of Finance on the evaluation framework for that measure.

New healthy eating guidelines and food pyramid resources for the population from age five upwards have been published and widely disseminated, and continue to be disseminated, including to all primary and post-primary schools.

The three Departments represented here, along with the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, developed new nutrition standards for the school meals scheme that are being implemented. Work has commenced on developing healthy eating guidelines for the one to five year old age group, which will be a valuable resource for parents, carers and the early years sector in the coming years in terms of nutrition.

In the HSE, the Healthy Eating, Active Living programme is supporting work in the education sector as well as with parents, families and communities in delivering a more co-ordinated approach to prevention and early intervention in child obesity. This includes a five-year communications campaign called START, which is being delivered in collaboration with the HSE and safefood with a focus on supporting parents to make healthy choices around food and activity. The committee might be aware that we launched the next phase of the campaign, which is around screen time, yesterday. A first clinical lead for obesity, Professor Donal O'Shea, was appointed in 2017. Health assessments, including weight and height checks, were introduced in the GP under sixes contract. The HSE is also implementing a national breastfeeding action plan, which is very important and relevant in terms of the prevention of child obesity.

Under the broader Healthy Ireland agenda, a number of other major initiatives support the obesity policy. The national physical activity plan is one of the key developments arising from Healthy Ireland, and implementation of that plan is well under way in collaboration with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and a range of other stakeholders, including the two Departments represented here today. The Healthy Ireland 2018 communications campaign aims to encourage people to make a small, healthy change under three themes, healthy eating, physical activity and mental well-being, which are all very relevant to obesity prevention. We are working with a range of national and local partners to deliver a range of communications and citizen engagement activities. The Healthy Ireland fund, which was initiated in 2017, has supported a range of actions at both national and local level, many of which are targeted at children and which aim to support the obesity policy and the physical activity plan. A very important and innovative strand of that has been co-funded by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in terms of providing funding to the children and young persons' services committees to help deliver activity at local level.

I am pleased to advise the committee that in July, the Government agreed to establish a Healthy Ireland office in the Department of Health to build on the progress to date and to strengthen further cross-Government collaboration on the implementation of Healthy Ireland. This development will bolster our collective efforts to implement key policies, including the obesity policy, that are all aimed at improving the health and well-being of our population. I hope the members find this brief update useful. We would be pleased to answer any questions that they may have.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I invite Mr. McCormack to continue.

Mr. Liam McCormack:

I am with Ms O'Flaherty-----

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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It is a joint presentation and Ms O'Flaherty is speaking for both witnesses. I invite Mr. Eamonn Cusack to make his presentation.

Ms Rita Sexton:

I will be making the presentation on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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That is okay. The women are speaking today.

Ms Rita Sexton:

I thank members for the opportunity to contribute to the committee's discussion on childhood obesity. Schools and the wider education sector have a vital role to play in promoting healthy lifestyles. The Department acknowledges the commitment of schools in promoting healthy lifestyle choices for students in a number of ways such as the curriculum, for example, physical education, PE, and social, personal and health education, SPHE; through schools policy, including healthy lunch policies; and the use of resources and programmes chosen by the school. Work by the Department of Education and Skills in this area aims to equip students with the skills and knowledge to enable them to make the right choices for healthy lifestyles throughout their lives.

PE is one of the seven core curriculum areas within the primary school curriculum. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, which is the body designated by the Department to assess and implement curriculum change, is conducting a review of structure and time allocation in the primary curriculum. In the framework for junior cycle for 2015, the importance of PE is reflected in one of the eight principles which underpin the framework, namely, that of well-being. Since September 2017, all schools must offer a programme of well-being to their first year students. Well-being crosses the three years of junior cycle and builds on substantial work taking place in schools in support of students' well-being. A well-being programme will include learning to enhance the physical, mental, emotional and social well-being of students. The junior cycle well-being programme began with 300 hours of timetabled engagement in 2017 and will build up to 400 hours by 2020 as the new junior cycle is implemented fully in schools.

PE, along with SPHE and civic social and political education, CSPE, will form the core parts of the well-being programme in schools. Among the 24 statements of learning under the framework for junior cycle are statements that the student is a confident and competent participant in physical activity, is motivated to be physically active, and understands the importance of food and diet in making healthy lifestyle choices. One of the eight key skills requirements for the junior cycle programme is that a student will stay well and be healthy and physically active.

At senior cycle, a new specification for leaving certificate physical education has been published and allows students to study physical education for the leaving certificate examination. A framework for senior cycle physical education has also been published. This framework provides a structure for PE teachers to plan a broad programme in PE for students who do not intend to take PE as a leaving certificate subject. The framework will support learners in developing confidence, competence and creativity in a range of physical activities. The new subject and framework was rolled out to 80 phase 1 schools in September 2018.

The Active School Flag, ASF, is a Department-funded initiative supported by Healthy Ireland. The ASF is awarded to schools that strive to achieve a physically educated and physically active school community. The investment being made under the national development plan, NDP, will also support the promotion of physical activity in schools. The NDP provides for an €8.4 billion investment in school buildings over the period 2018 to 2027 to deliver on NDP and national planning framework objectives through addressing the twin priorities of catering for demographics and ensuring a strengthened focus on refurbishment of existing school stock. This investment will result in an almost doubling of the capital budget for school buildings: €540 million in 2018 rising to an annual average of circa €1 billion in the second half of the NDP period. The strengthened focus on refurbishment of existing school stock will have different strands, including a PE hall build and modernisation programme that ensures that students in all post-primary schools have access to appropriate facilities to support PE provision, particularly also in the context of the roll-out of PE as a leaving certificate subject.

The Department of Education and Skills works closely with the Department of Health and the HSE on the Healthy Ireland agenda. The Department is represented on a number of groups, including the national physical activity plan implementation group and the obesity policy implementation oversight group. Healthy lifestyles guidance issued to post-primary schools in 2015 and primary schools in 2016. This guidance was drafted in consultation with the Department of Health. I am happy to answer any questions members may have.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I will now take questions from members.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I have a number of questions for all the witnesses. I will start with the witnesses from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. The witnesses spoke at length about early childhood care and education, ECCE. My question is about full-time versus the three hours and the fact that only 30% of children attend crèches on a full-time basis. The rest attend at home, so there are only three hours where we know there is over 90% attendance in the early years sector. What is the Department doing in respect of a targeted approach to capture the 90% attendance? What is it doing for everyone who uniformly gets the same approach? Some of the children who attend ECCE come in with their little lunches, so how does the Department work with regard to the healthy eating policy in educating parents and staff and, most important, informing the children?

What is the strategy for the ECCE sector? Guidelines are in place for children in full-time childcare, with meal plans, the three-week menu rotation and so forth, but I am very concerned to ensure that everyone is getting adequate information.

Reference was made to the capital grant. Is it adequate? Is there enough funding available to the early years sector? A sum of €4.4 million is provided on an annual basis but not all of that is for outdoor play. Many childcare facilities are expanding to meet additional demand which is eating into their outdoor space. Is it a question of providing adequate outdoor space or ensuring that children move from a sedentary position to one of movement within the room? Is there a way of monitoring that? Not all physical activity has to take place outdoors but children should be moving every hour within the hour.

In terms of the national strategy, what is the witnesses' view of weighing children in early years settings?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

I ask the Deputy to clarify her final point about the national strategy and our view on-----

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Weighing. We have to be able to measure children. What is the view of the Department in that regard? We have met primary and post-primary teachers and they all have a particular view on weighing children at school. I have asked the same question of everybody. I would like to know the Department's view on measuring children. I am not only referring to weight, but to height and everything else including their fitness and mobility.

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

I will deal with the first question on children attending the free preschool programme. All services contracted to deliver this programme must comply with various regulations. Under regulation 22, there is a requirement to have a healthy eating policy in place and to support children's awareness of healthy eating. The Síolta quality framework for early childhood care and education sets out quality standards for the delivery of ECCE. This includes standards relating to educating children on healthy eating choices and engaging with parents, in a partnership approach, on healthy eating and healthy choices. In terms of regulations, that is what is done on a universal basis. There is also another programme delivered under the Healthy Ireland programme - the Healthy Ireland Smart Start programme - which is being rolled out nationally to preschool services and which is currently focused on children aged three to five. It has been delivered to 20% of services so far. The programme focuses on promoting healthy eating and engaging in physical activity. It involves the preschool practitioners, children and their families.

On the issue of the capital grant, in 2018 over €1 million was provided in capital funding for outdoor space provision. Every year a decision is taken on how to prioritise the capital allocation. We engage with the county childcare committees and Pobal and try to identify priorities. This year, outdoor provision and enhancing outdoor play facilities was prioritised. Under regulations, every service registered with Tusla from June 2016 must have access to outdoor facilities on premises. Those services that registered before that date must give children access to outdoor space on a daily basis. Tusla inspects for compliance with these regulations.

In terms of the national strategy for babies and young children, we identify children's health as a priority. Under the free GP care scheme, children are weighed at ages two and five and undergo a range of developmental checks. My colleague, Ms O'Flaherty, can elaborate further but in terms of weighing children in preschool, there is no policy on that.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interject but I think what Deputy Rabbitte is asking is whether the witnesses have a view on it. There has been some controversy regarding whether it should be done in GP practices, in schools or in other settings. If Dr. Brooks or Ms O'Flaherty do not have a view on it, that is fine.

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

It is not something that we have explored to date.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It has not been explored?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

No, it is not something that we have considered.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

Under the free GP care for children under six scheme, children are weighed and measured at ages two and five. I do not have the exact percentages but we do know that the take-up in respect of that scheme is very high. It is in the early stages but part of the point of having those weights recorded is that it gives us a national profile of the population. There are also issues around interacting appropriately with parents and not doing anything in a stigmatising manner. Great care must be taken not only with regard to the setting but also in how to approach the weighing of children. Even the GPs who are doing it now for younger children need training on how to broach the subject and discuss the results with parents, particularly if a child is showing signs of being overweight at an early stage. GPs can refer them on or advise them on the supports that are available which may be helpful. There is an issue around that. I know that the committee has heard from others who have suggested that children should be weighed in schools but that is not something that we have considered because of the question of how that could be done in an appropriate manner. Furthermore, all children have free access to GPs, who are already doing that weighing. Part of the approach we are taking cross-departmentally and under the new strategy to which Dr. Brooks referred and our joint campaign, START, is about providing supportive messages to parents. Several witnesses who have appeared before the committee previously have pointed out that many parents, for various reasons, do not recognise that their child may be overweight or understand the implications of that. We must work in a supportive manner in terms of determining where parents are at and outlining the small things they could start doing which would be helpful.

In response to Deputy Rabbitte's first question, we are developing new healthy eating guidelines for one to five year olds. The Food Safety Authority's scientific committee is close to finalising the scientific guidelines for that and we will develop a new suite of resources for one to five year olds. That will be useful not only to parents at home but also in all early years care settings, regardless of the time spent there by children. We have nutrition standards in schools but there will be more clarity on nutrition and supportive suggestions on how to have a healthy diet. Sometimes people know what it should be like but find it difficult to attain it in real life.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Brooks and Ms O'Flaherty for their replies. There are 4,500 crèches registered for the ECCE scheme and €1 million is spent on capital funding for outdoor spaces, which works out at €222 per facility. I know that is not how the money is divided but €1 million is not nearly enough. Capacity is an issue and outdoor spaces are being used to increase capacity. ECCE providers are telling me that they are not getting enough support in terms of outdoor space provision. In that context, we need initiatives to inform people that children can move around in a class setting. Is there a policy on children moving every ten minutes within the hour? Sitting down is our new killer. We have to teach children to get up and move. If we are not investing in outdoor spaces, are we educating staff on mobility in an indoor setting? I do not think €1 million is enough.

In terms of weighing and measuring children, my view is that we must develop a database, perhaps as part of the GP contract. We should be normalising what we are doing, regardless of the setting.

However, we need to start gathering data. The best way to gather data, if we are talking about the early years sector, is among the 97% take-up in the ECCE. Surely we should be starting at the first point of entry. That should be with the GP, but there should be a mechanism for continuing it.

One of the presentations referred to which socio-economic groups are more likely to include levels of obesity. If everyone is attending an early childhood setting, is that not the most normal way, with the policy document and everything else that is being launched, to be able to engage with the parents and provide feedback? If it is done in a normal setting, to be quite honest, it is no different than holding one's pen.

My main questions for Ms O'Flaherty relate to how the Department of Health measures and collects the data and the buy-in of the GP contract. How many data have been gathered? Has the Department analysed the data that have come in and what percentage of them have been collected? It is now we should be doing this. That was all I have for Ms O'Flaherty.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

I do not have the exact percentage but the uptake is very high. We do not yet have the following data. The key ones would be the numbers of children who have undergone the aged two and aged five checks. We understand that they are doing that and recording that. There is a time lag in terms of those data being able to come back to us for analysis. The Deputy is correct that it would be a key baseline, not only in terms of having the satisfaction or the assurance, shall we say, that parents and children are undergoing the assessments but also of what that tells us about the weight of the children as a population.

There is a study, the Childhood Obesity Surveillance Initiative, COSI, which is a global project in which Ireland participates. We have results every couple of years from that for our children and our key data on levels of childhood obesity come from that. The latest COSI is nearly finished in the field and we will have up-to-date data on that. In the trend data - it weighs seven and eight year olds, that is, first class and second class children - we have seen a stabilisation in that the levels of overweight are not increasing. There is a disparity between boys and girls, girls being more overweight, and not the same narrowing of the gap in terms of stabilisation in DEIS schools.

The data that we will have in the coming months will be helpful. These are objective measurements. It is weighing and measuring children in Ireland. Under the obesity policy, that is the key data point that we will be using to measure success against the target, not only in terms of getting a reduction and stabilisation but also narrowing the gap among the inequalities.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is very welcome. If Ms O'Flaherty does not mind, I will follow up with her on that particular point. Would every first and second class in the country have participated, was it a snap view or how many schools were involved?

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

It is a population representative sample. It involves a number of thousand of children. Apologies that I do not have the exact figures but I can certainly send on more detailed information.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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If Ms O'Flaherty does not mind.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

It is a nationally representative sample.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms O'Flaherty see where I would love to see it in the early childhood setting, and if the Department were to do it again at the seven-year mark and again later on, the Department would be gathering the data? Ms O'Flaherty herself knows that it is in later years that we will reap the rewards.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

Completely; the earlier that we are able to intervene.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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And keep it as normal as possible.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

Normalising, yes. I would not disagree with Deputy Rabbitte in terms of how we normalise. We said there are many behaviours that we need to normalise but we are a little way off that in terms of people's understanding about being able to explain to them their child is overweight and what that means for them, and in a supportive way what they might do about it. There are challenges in terms of moving that norm forward, but I would not disagree with the Deputy that the ECCE setting is more open.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The norm I talk about is the setting. The other representatives we had in, for example, from the various teaching unions, stated they felt the stigmatisation, the bullying aspect and all of that. I believe that if the normalisation starts at the early intervention years, it is just normal. It is part of the data. It is the collection of it. It is no different. We are one of the few countries that do not do it. That is where I was coming from.

The fact that I have three children in post-primary means I have much to say to Ms Sexton and Mr. Cusack on the education system, PE, sports halls and investment. As part of the junior cycle, they mentioned SPHE, CPHE, well-being and PE, and it is all in the one tranche. Years ago, when we talked about PE, a child got a certain number of PE classes a week and at least it was known that the child was physically engaging. The child might not want to participate in sports at home, but it would be known that he or she was participating in school. Will the witnesses explain in how many hours or classes of PE a week, under Department guidelines, are children supposed to participate?

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

Ms Sexton is on the curriculum side and she will answer that query.

Ms Rita Sexton:

At primary level, it is one hour of PE per week. At post-primary level, what is recommended is two class periods per week. That, typically, is 80 minutes per week.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is that every week of the 38 weeks in the year or is it diluted by being part of the SPHE and CPHE so that it works out being for a quarter of the year?

Ms Rita Sexton:

Certainly, at the senior cycle, it would be the PE class every week. As Deputy Rabbitte points out, there is change happening in terms of the well-being programme but, typically, it would be PE every week.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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How is recruitment and retention of PE teachers? Is there a shortage at present?

Ms Rita Sexton:

I am not aware of that in terms of PE teachers.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There was reference to sports halls and the witnesses spoke eloquently about the €8.4 billion under the NDP. If we were to link on from the early years, primary and post-primary, many of the schools on the western seaboard do not have gym facilities that we talk about. I talk about the leaking roof in my school in Portumna, but it is classroom spaces we are supposed to be talking about. Below in New Inn where they are trying to buy a sliver of land, when one goes to the Department, it says it is looking at classroom spaces. How do we marry it to balance the physical well-being of the child and his or her academic needs? How do they view that in the Department of Education and Skills?

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

I will take that one. We have to balance it with classroom spaces. Our priority is to provide seats for bums, if the Deputy knows what I mean. Also, as part of any building project that we deliver, be it a refurbishment project or a new school building, we provide a sports hall or, in primary schools, a general purpose, GP, room. In the schedule of accommodation that is given for post-primary schools or primary schools, the biggest single piece of infrastructure is the PE hall or, in the case of a primary school, the GP room. We look at PE as an important part of all new buildings or major refurbishments we are providing, and we bring the facilities in those schools up to the norm we provide for any new school.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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How much funding is left aside every year for older schools that need to make refurbishments solely in sports halls or outdoor space areas? Up the road from me, Tynagh national school had lumps of stone in its field, as in its safe play area, and it could not get it included under the minor works scheme. I am trying to figure out where physical activity and safety are balanced against putting bums on seats?

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

We did not have the resources. We have putting the bums on the seats over recent years, but given the extra funding that we have, especially coming in the latter half of the NDP, our focus will be to provide PE facilities.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The latter half of the NDP is 2027.

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

It is starting in 2023.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We will have lost a complete cycle of children before we ever start.

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

We are providing sports facilities in halls. There are also facilities within the summer works scheme where we allow schools to apply for funding to upgrade play facilities and outdoor areas.

We are looking at the last tranche of works applications and there will be an announcement before Christmas on schools that will receive funding for the upgrading of their play areas.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I have questions for the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the Department of Education and Skills. I will be begin with the development of a strategy for babies, young children and their families. I am aware that the LGBTQI strategy was launched and that it runs from 2018 to 2020. The national youth strategy runs from 2015 to 2020. Is there capacity in the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to deliver on these strategies? Not all of the actions are deliverable by the Department. In many cases they are across government. Is there capacity within the Department to deliver on the actions outlined in all strategies? For the LGBTQI strategy there is an oversight committee, the youth advisory group, with an independent chairperson. Will the officials from the Department speak to us about the process through which the national strategy for babies, young children and their families was developed? I am sure the work of the committee was of benefit. What is the cost of developing these strategies? Is all of the work done internally, or are there consultants involved? I do not need the exact numbers, but I am interested in ballpark figures for how strategies are developed in the Department.

With regard to the active school flag, as mayor of South Dublin County Council, one of the most joyous activities was dealing with the green schools initiative. I presume the active school flag is a physical flag, as I had not heard of it. Is the initiative gaining traction? Do the officials from the Department of Education and Skills know the number of schools involved and, if so, will they share the statistics with us?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

I can come back to the Senator with separate data for the development of the LGBTQI strategy and the youth strategy. I will concentrate on the strategy for babies, young children and their families.

The process of developing the strategy commenced some time ago. An expert advisory group was established with representatives from children's services and academia. It reported on recommendations made for the earlier strategy, Right from the Start, which was published in 2013. It was one of the key inputs into the development of the strategy. A separate consultation process was undertaken with children aged from three to five years. That report also fed into the development of the strategy. Separately, we had two open policy debates to inform the strategy. They involved a range of academics, service providers and organisations with an interest in various aspects of children's lives, including health, education and welfare. The debates took place this year and December 2016.

Separately, an interdepartmental group was established comprising officials from the Departments with a key interest or role in delivering actions under the strategy. The group sat this year. We have also engaged in bilateral discussions with Departments and agencies on finalising the strategy, with the actions and content informed by evidence. The development of the strategy was led by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, with significant contributions from other Departments. There were some consultations with children.

On the capacity of the Department to deliver, it is a whole-of-government strategy. Therefore, we will have actions to deliver under it. It is a ten-year strategy. We will have an oversight role in implementation, but other Departments have signed up and will sign up to deliver actions over the period of time of the strategy.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Will the Department of Children and Youth Affairs hold them to account for their actions?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

We will have an oversight role in implementation. We are agreeing to the implementation structures.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Apart from the strategies mentioned, are there other ongoing strategies?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

There is also a participation strategy. They are all constituent strategies of Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures, the policy framework for children and young people.

Photo of Denise MitchellDenise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the officials for their submissions. On regulations to be put in place by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs which stipulate a service must ensure children attending an ECCE scheme will have a nutritious diet, what food types are provided for? The Department also states mechanisms are in place to monitor implementation of this measure. With the officials outline to us what are the mechanisms involved? Are there penalties for those service providers who do not follow the guidelines?

For the benefit of those viewing these proceedings, will the officials go into detail on the Preparing for Life programme?

My next question is for the Department of Education and Skills. As a parent who has two children in primary school, I acknowledge the work being done at that level. Every parent watching these proceedings knows about Super Troopers, Food Dudes and the walk to work scheme. Fantastic work is ongoing at primary school level, but it is when children move from primary level, where all of this hard work is done, o secondary school, that we see difficulties arise. We have educated young minds to think about eating healthily and participating, but when they move to secondary school, there is a contradiction. We are educating children, but the environment does not send a good message. I know that it is not the Department that looks after them, but there are vending machines in schools. What is the opinion of the officials on their use? We educate children about lunch boxes, but when they go to school, they see vending machines.

We have received many submissions on water fountains. Has there been an audit of water fountains in schools? Has there been an audit of PE halls? How many schools do not have adequate PE halls and canteen facilities?

There has been much talk about making home economics a compulsory subject. What are the views of the officials in that regard? If it were to be made a compulsory subject, how much would it cost the Department to kit out all schools?

What are the opinions of the officials on no fry zones? There has been a lot of talk about them. What is the opinion of the Department on fast food outlets being located near schools?

I have a few brief questions about health issues. Yesterday The Irish Timesreported that the Departments of Health and Finance were delaying the code of practice governing the marketing of junk food to children. What is the status of this voluntary regulation? We are all aware that the sugar tax has worked. The industry had begun to reduce sugar content before it was implemented. Are there other initiatives that could be taken in respect of fat and salt content? Has the Department of Finance been spoken to about ring-fencing some of the money coming in from the sugar tax to tackle the problem of obesity?

Ms Rita Sexton:

We are conscious that in primary schools there is much more flexibility because the same teacher is with students all day. That is why there is so much change in post-primary schools. The junior cycle framework is significant in that regard. It is not so much focused on the content of the curriculum, rather it is about learning outcomes. It is about teaching students to be responsible citizens, competent and confident in order that they will have good decision-making skills. Part of the junior cycle framework is the well-being programme. At post-primary level well-being might have been seen as coming within the remit of the guidance counsellor.

However, the emphasis now is that the well-being of students is the responsibility of all staff in the school. The well-being programme is a whole-school initiative. Within that programme there are the subjects we mentioned already, namely, physical education, PE, social, personal and health education, SPHE, civil, social and political education, CSPE, and guidance is also included in it. There is a good deal of flexibility in the well-being programme for schools to include whatever they consider is necessary to meet the needs of their student cohort. They could bring in a person to talk about bullying or healthy eating and there is a real emphasis now on the well-being student. As part of the junior cycle framework, the emphasis is on moving away from the strong focus on the terminal exam. There is a focus now on the classroom-based work of the student, which lifts a certain level of stress off the students.

In terms of vending machines, it is not really an issue at primary school level. Our life skills survey in 2015 showed that practically no primary schools have vending machines. It showed that 27% of post-primary schools did have vending machines.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte took the Chair.

Ms Rita Sexton:

The position of the Department of Education and Skills is that it does not intend to instruct schools to end the practice of having vending machines. As I mentioned in my opening statement, the Department has issued healthy lifestyle guidance to schools. Part of that is about schools having healthy eating policies and looking after the well-being of students so a school in having a vending machine needs to balance that. Schools could have vending machines that would have healthy snacks. My colleagues will address the Deputy's other questions.

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

Deputy Mitchell mentioned the availability of drinking water in schools. As part of any school project at primary school level, a drinking water tap is provided in every classroom in a school and also at various different locations such as the general purpose, GP, room, servery and so on. In post-primary schools drinking water is provided in the sinks in some of the meeting rooms and drinking fountains are provided around the school. There is at least one for every 150 pupils up to a maximum of six points within the school and up to a maximum of four points outside the school.

Photo of Denise MitchellDenise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Is that in every school?

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

Yes, in every school. We have sought correspondence from the Irish Heart Foundation regarding a small survey it carried out which we have read. It stated that 40% of schools did not have free drinking water. The Department does not accept that and we are happy that every school has a free supply of tap drinking water. It is open to any school that does not have that to apply to us for funding and we will be more than happy to provide funding under our emergency works scheme or our summer works scheme to assist it in providing that. Since that announcement was made we have been contacted by only one school. It was not the case that it did not provide drinking water but it was concerned about the number of drinking fountains it had in the school. The Department is satisfied that all primary schools have a free supply of tap drinking water on their premises.

The Deputy also mentioned PE halls and asked about the number of them. We are not that well placed to give that information. The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport published its strategy during the summer and as part of that it is proposing to carry out an audit of all sports facilities around the country. We will liaise very closely with it to include schools as part and parcel of that.

Photo of Denise MitchellDenise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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How often will it do that?

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

It will carry out one every two years. We have set up a meeting with them early next week to get the ball rolling on that.

Deputy Catherine Noone resumed the Chair.

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

The idea is that we will have a whole-town approach as opposed to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport providing community-based sports halls and schools also providing that. The idea that facilities could be shared would save taxpayers' money. If there is one in a town the idea is to question if there is a need to put three or four PE halls in schools in that town.

The Deputy also asked about ensuring there would be no-fry zones around schools. It is open to any school or individual to object to a planning application that is made. The Department is not keen to see fast food outlets opening up close to schools. As in the case of any other facility, if the person who is interested in opening up a fast food outlet submits a planning application, it is up to the schools in the area to object.

Photo of Denise MitchellDenise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Department of Education and Skills support a local school is making such an objection?

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

Of course it would. If any school were to approach us to assist it with making an objection, we would certainly give it that support. That would not be a problem.

Photo of Denise MitchellDenise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Department's view on the point I raised about the subject of home economics?

Ms Rita Sexton:

There have been some calls for home economics to be made a mandatory subject. As the Deputy will be aware, we have a challenge of a curriculum overload, so there are no plans to make it a mandatory subject. Many first-year students are offered a taster menu and would have the option to study that and that may give them the interest to carry on with that subject. The transition year programme also includes a cooking module. The whole area of healthy eating and nutrition is very well addressed in the SPHE curriculum.

Mr. Eamonn Cusack:

The Deputy mentioned the costs involved. The cost of kitting out a home economics room is about €50,000 based on the Department's equipment list for a home economics room. If we were to build a stand-alone facility, the cost of providing a PE hall would be approximately €277,000. As part of a 1,000 pupil school, four home economics rooms would be provided as part of the accommodation for a school of that size.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

We have a few more points to address.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Apologies, I had to briefly step out of the meeting and I thought all the questions had been addressed. I ask Ms O'Flaherty to proceed.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

I will respond to Deputy Mitchell's questions in reverse order. She asked about ring-fencing the tax take from a sugar tax and other measures. The current Government policy and that of the Department of Finance is not to hypothecate the tax take for particular reasons. A point regarding such a tax is that if it is as successful as we hope, it will be a diminishing tax over time. However, as I mentioned in the opening statement, since 2017, the Government has initiated a Healthy Ireland Fund, specifically for us to drive some of that cross-sectoral partnership work. At this time of the year when discussions on the Estimates are under way, we in the Department make a very strong case for increasing that Healthy Ireland Fund to support that work.

On the point regarding the question on reformulation, work on the reformulation has been prioritised under the obesity policy. There is an interest in the industry in doing that and we have had engagement with people. We set up the reformulation subgroup as a priority which will set out a roadmap specifically around sugar and fat content. We work quite closely with industry and keep a watch on what is happening UK because England has strategies and targets particularly around sugar and fat reduction and related reductions in portion size. Many of the products that come into the Irish market are in the UK market. Our committee has done good work. It has the bones of a draft roadmap on the way forward. We had quite a large workshop with industry, which was well attended, in terms of setting, and getting consensus on, the targets which we can support and keep the process moving. At an industry level there are complications in terms of moving their products. In anticipation of measures being introduced, and the sugar tax is a good example of this, the industry often will start to make moves in that direction and some of that is influenced by consumer attitudes.

Regarding voluntary codes of practice, we have a number of stakeholders who are interested in getting that up and running. They were launched in February. Our commitment was to have this progressed this year. We are making progress on that. We have had good and positive engagement from the industry on that, from food manufacturers, retailers and advertisers. There are some complex issues around how we would monitor certain aspects of the codes. There is an element in the codes where retailers have signed up to make bigger efforts around promoting healthy food and making healthier food, for example, fruit and vegetables cheaper and, therefore more accessible to people. There are issues around how we procure the monitoring of that. There is the aspect of moving forward with implementation. We are engaging with the industry in terms of setting up a register of all companies so that we would know everyone who has signed up to this.

Some of the challenges are around monitoring. For example, there is no obvious statutory body that monitors media, especially non-broadcast media. That is one challenge we are working through. It is a question of how to set up to get all the parts moving. We intend to have significant progress made before the end of the year on that.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Is there another comment?

Ms Ruth Doggett:

The preparing for life programme is community-led prevention and early intervention programme led by Northside Partnership. It was initiated in 2007 with funding from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and Atlantic Philanthropies. In the main, the focus was on improving school readiness for children in the area who were found not to have the appropriate skills for starting school. The initiative was developed as a five-year home-visiting programme. It is joined with the positive parenting programme, PPP. The holistic definition of school readiness includes physical health and well-being, social and emotional development, approaches to learning, language development and cognition. One finding of the health study relevant to the discussion this morning was that the programme had a positive impact on childhood obesity. I suppose that was in the broader context of improving school readiness. The contributing factors included the home-visiting programme. Those involved went into homes and spoke to parents about how to support their children with healthy eating and being prepared for school. It is a programme that focuses on supporting parents in a positive way to get their children ready for school and to have the skills and knowledge to support their children to achieve good outcomes.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Ms Doggett. Did you want to comment, Dr. Brooks?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

There was a question around healthy eating in preschools and regulation. I had mentioned that there is a requirement to have healthy eating guidelines in registered services. The recent Tusla publication on the quality and regulatory framework sets out guidance on what should be incorporated into a healthy eating policy. The publication sets out that the policy should be informed by the food nutrition guidelines for preschool services. It sets out guidance around serving sizes and how these should be promoted and on display for parents to see. There is guidance on that. The regulations are inspected by Tusla. The agency goes into preschool services and inspects against the regulations. That is one of several regulations.

Photo of Denise MitchellDenise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Are there penalties?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:

The Tusla inspections are published online. If there are issues identified in the course of inspection, guidelines are given to address any issues that have arisen.

Photo of Tom NevilleTom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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My apologies for being late. If any of these questions has been asked already, the officials might let me know and I will look at the transcript.

I am seeking the thoughts of the Department officials on the system. Do they believe the changes that have happened in the past ten years since the introduction of smartphones have had an effect on physical activity? Do they believe that the system or facilities that we are providing via the curriculum is moving fast enough? Are we behind the curve? How much behind the curve do the officials envisage we are at the moment? I understand infrastructure takes time to catch up so I am not beating anyone with a stick. I am simply keen to get the thoughts of the officials.

What are the thoughts of the Department officials on the anecdotal feedback we have heard? I have heard myself that insurance in schools is stopping kids from running around the place. Do the officials have any thoughts on that, if it is happening? I have heard the usual stock answer that it is up to the schools to provide their own insurance or insurance provider but I would like to know the views of the Departments, because if children are being prevented from playing by insurance then that is a major issue. I am trying to get some concrete evidence because anything I have heard is anecdotal.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Do you want to come in on that, Ms O'Flaherty?

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

I will address the overall question of physical activity. The current data is rather old so we are repeating data from the Children's Sport Participation and Physical Activity Study, which was done in 2009 and published in 2010. That is why we have low figures of 9% and 12% around the number of children in primary and post-primary level meeting the physical activity guidelines. Our Department and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport are funding a re-run of that to see whether the numbers are more up to date. When we get that we will perhaps get a handle on whether the figures are a little better. That is a main part of the work across all our strategies. We have to get up-to-date data to inform us of how we are doing and where we may or may not be making progress. Certainly, we have a sense perhaps that there is more participation in sporting and physical activity in the population but it is more difficult to get an objective measure of that sometimes because it is self-reported. Then there is the question of how active people are, whether they meet the guidelines and how important that is. The question is how we have a measure of some activity, including play and so on. These things get a little technical but when we have the results of that in 2019 it might give us a better and up to date handle on how active our children and teenagers are. That study will be important.

Deputy Neville asked about the role of smartphones. I suppose there are always technological advances and things that make us more sedentary, whether cars or more people working in offices where they are sitting. That applies to smartphones as well. We are running the START campaign now with the HSE and safefood. Earlier we launched the new phase of that. It is not only a matter of physical activity and healthy eating; it is a question of supporting parents around other key drivers like sleep and screen time. There are no specific guidelines around encouraging people to reduce screen time but we do guide on the number of hours at certain ages to reduce excessive use. The key message is to have balance in a child's life. Obviously for young children there is no particular value in it, but certainly for older children and teenagers there is a great deal of educational and entertainment value in the things they do on their smartphones. It is about having the balance between physical activity and other social interaction that is good for their normal emotional and social development. It is something that we keep an eye on. Again, we have to go to parents with a supportive message about making some changes. It is not about cutting out screens or banning screens and what they should do instead. It is about supporting people to be aware of the detrimental effects of overuse. It is about balance in the child's life. It is about telling them about tips from other parents on how to introduce a regime in the home about hours spent watching television or screens. The idea is to give them positive suggestions and supports about things they may do instead. Much of that is direct interaction and play or other activity with their children. Again, our message to people is about how they can do that in a simple way without costing money. I hope that answers the question.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Do you want to come in, Ms Sexton?

Ms Rita Sexton:

Reference was made to bringing in physical education at leaving certificate level. There is a positive effect of smartphones in that work is ongoing on a PE app. It will help leaving certificate students to monitor their progress and physical activity.

Deputy Neville referred to the other issue around insurance and children not being able to play. We have little evidence that this is a significant problem in schools. We hear of this idea of a no-run policy such that children cannot run at break time but we believe that is the case only in a small number of schools.

Photo of Tom NevilleTom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Is it happening?

Ms Rita Sexton:

We have no concrete evidence of it – it is anecdotal. If it is happening, it is on a small scale.

Photo of Tom NevilleTom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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That is the problem. There is anecdotal feedback. I am getting too much of it for this not to be happening. If it is happening, then it is a major problem. What kind of message is that sending out? It is now on the verges or extremes but when does it become the norm? I do not want to be having a conversation here in five years time – if I am here – such as the one we are having a conversation today about car insurance. That started happening five years ago in 2013. The effect of that on children will be detrimental.

Ms Rita Sexton:

It certainly would not fit with the healthy lifestyle policy that schools should have in place.

Photo of Tom NevilleTom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Has any study been undertake by the Department on what schools may be coming under this regime?

Ms Rita Sexton:

No. We are issuing the next life-skills survey in 2018. We will issue it before the end of this school year and we can include a question to schools about it.

Photo of Tom NevilleTom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I cannot understand why it has not been done already, to be honest. If the Department is aware of anecdotal feedback about this, then why has it not been identified?

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

I was involved in the previous life-skills survey because the Department of Health works closely with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. If I am not incorrect, it included a question on a no running policy. The finding was that the number of schools that have such a policy is tiny and diminishing. It is practice in approximately 3% of schools that provided feedback but it is decreasing over time.

Photo of Tom NevilleTom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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There are still schools where it is happening. We are trying to fight the issue of childhood obesity and my point is that even one school is one too many. I cannot understand why the Departments have not identified the schools involved and engaged with them to try to fix the problem. If the issue is one of a lack of political pressure, I ask the witnesses to say so. If it is a departmental issue, this needs to be nipped in the bud. If there is nothing else achieved from our interaction this morning, I would like these schools to be identified and an immediate stop put to this practice.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I second that proposal.

Photo of Tom NevilleTom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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This practice needs to be guillotined. I am sure it can be done. If it is a provider issue the Department should assist the schools to find a new provider. There are obviously other insurance companies out there that are okay with children being allowed to run around playgrounds.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am from Galway and I regularly hear about this issue. Deputy Neville is from Limerick and the Acting Chair, Senator Noone, is from Mayo. This is happening across the board.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I have a couple of questions for our guests. This issue regarding running in schools has been a particular bugbear of mine for years, and I have done some work on it. I am convinced that it is in place in more schools than are willing to admit the fact, for whatever reason. It seems crazy that schools would prevent children running but I have been told by a few parents recently that it is happening. The Department needs to issue a directive on this matter. This is about one of the risks in life. We cannot allow the insurance industry to hold us to ransom when it comes to children running in school. This is a matter I am passionate about and I hope that, following on from this meeting, our guests will do a little more work on it.

The policy on obesity was put in place in 2016. There was supposed to be an annual report on the policy but, to my knowledge, there has never been such a report. Perhaps our guests will explain why that is the case. We will have to be very patient in tackling the issue of obesity because it took a long time for the patterns and habits to be established in society. It will take time to make progress but it would be welcome if we could get some indication of the work that is being done and any progress being made. At this time of year, there is much talk about fiscal space. The fiscal space would be a lot larger for services and our citizens if we get on top of this issue. I am sure our guests are well aware of the huge health cost to the Exchequer resulting from people's lifestyles.

Reformulation was mentioned, which I find interesting. There is meaningful interaction with the food and drinks companies. Ms O'Flaherty spoke about the reduction in the amount of tax from the sugar tax because a lot of drinks companies are now putting less sugar in their drinks and thus removing them from the higher tax bracket. Reference was made to an evaluation framework. What is the timeframe for it? Again, I would not like it to be years before we know if it is having an impact. Deputy Mitchell referred to ring-fencing, which is an issue I have been hammering the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, on but I do not think he is for moving. There is a precedent for it in the context of the plastic bag levy. Even if we do not ring-fence it, there should be a commitment to that money being spent in this area.

Deputy Rabbitte referred to funding in respect of early childhood years. In general, I do not believe there is sufficient money being invested in tackling obesity. It is an issue of monumental proportion and I do not think society has fully come up to speed with how serious it is in terms of the future generations and the possibility of a first generation of parents who will outlive their children.

On weighing children, I acknowledge that general practitioners are weighing them or, at least, that they are supposed to do so. As a society, we need to grow up when it comes to this issue. There is something in what is being said, including here, about skirting around the issue. I understand that it is a delicate matter, particularly as I have lived it. I know that we need to be careful with children but if we are a little bit more mature in how as a society we approach it from a very early age we will make progress. I do not subscribe to much of Dr. Eva Orsmond says or the way she goes about saying it because it can be very cutting. It is not necessarily how I would wish to communicate with people but the core point is that in other countries they approach this in a more grown up way. The Irish approach appears to be focused on not saying that people are failing as parents. We appear to be unable to address the issue in a more head-on type fashion. I know it is a delicate balancing act. I would welcome our guests' observations.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

On the issue of reporting, the obesity policy was launched in September 2016. The oversight group was established a year later. We are now two years into implementation and there are two pieces of work under way. We are preparing a progress report. There are a number of detailed actions and cross-sectoral activities involved and we have commenced an exercise to capture all of this. Information in this regard is often provided in replies to parliamentary questions and via other opportunities so perhaps we have not been out there in terms of reporting on progress and the work we have been doing. We have been focused on doing the work rather than on reporting it. We have also started a piece of work with an academic team from UCC, which is the development of an evaluation framework for the obesity policy. We will be working with stakeholders and other Departments in the coming months in building a robust evaluation framework that will contemplate all the quantitative data relating to progress on actions and that will recognise the qualitative data that may suggest societal changes. We hope to have a draft framework by March next. This will be the framework under which we will annually report. As already stated, our focus at the start was on other issues rather than on reporting.

I have already responded to the question on the ring-fencing of funding. As I said, it is a matter for the Minister for Finance.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am losing that battle.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

In terms of evaluation, again, we are progressing an evaluation piece of work with the Department of Finance to measure the levels of consumption of sugar sweetened drinks. Levels of consumption are still very high in children and young adults, particularly in lower socioeconomic groups, such that we have not achieved a big change in consumption and consumer culture. We are also capturing data on behaviours and attitudes, including people's awareness of their diets and the overall levels of sugar and other ingredients in their diets.

On the issue of weighing children, we are on a journey around normalisation in the names of our policies and strategies. In our campaign, we reference a healthy weight for children rather than child obesity per se. This is important in terms of buy-in. We also have a mindset or attitude issue among the adult population in that most of do not recognise the risks of approximately 60% of the adult population being overweight.

I suppose there is a journey to go on with everyone to tackle that in a supportive way to recommend to people the small things they do on diet and being more active will all add up over time and they are worth it. They are difficult changes for people to make. It is a big decision not only to say they want to make a change but to actually follow it through.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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And have the know-how.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

Yes. We are on that journey and we need to talk about it more in a supportive way. The general approach of our strategy and policy work across Government is to work with citizens who are very engaged. People want to be healthy and want their children to be healthy. We need to find the best way we can do that based on evidence and learning to support people to do that more for themselves.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question on the vending machines for the Department of Education and Skills. Representatives of secondary schools and parents have told the committee that some schools are using vending machines to supplement income and it was an income stream for them. I was shocked and the Acting Chairman will bear me out. The witnesses have spoken about policy and everything else. Vending machines in schools should be banned unless they are dispensing water. We do not need vending machines selling sugared drinks. Ms O'Flaherty has just told us about the high levels of consumption among young people. We need to get real about it. The Department of Education and Skills should immediately issue a directive banning vending machines in schools.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Yes and in hospitals.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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And hospitals - everywhere. We should start with schools because officials from the Department of Education and Skills are present. We cannot write policy such as the White Paper and not be real about it. Schools see it as an income stream they cannot lose. We are talking about children's health and that message needs to be relayed from the top down. The children are not in control and we have to support them. That is my final message on that.

Ms Kate O'Flaherty:

On vending machines, the HSE policy is called Healthy Vending Policy. That was introduced a couple of years ago and I think we will be reviewing it shortly. That was to have a 60:40 split in terms of healthier foods which were around portion size and calories and the type of food so that there would still be choice there for people but they would be able to make healthier choices. The vending machines in hospitals and health centres no longer have branding from any of the major food or drink providers, but provide messages prompting people to make a healthier choice.

We have worked with the Department of Education and Skills starting there with 60:40 approach. A healthy vending policy for schools that still wish to have vending machines would be the place to start. I am not aware that we have maybe looked too closely at the implementation of that policy. I do not want to speak on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills, but Ms Sexton has spoken about the outcomes and helping young teenagers to make informed decisions and positive choices. The part of the path on which we have gone is about having a healthy vending policy.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thoroughly agree with every word Ms O'Flaherty has said. However, I was shocked that it was seen as an income stream on the back of children's health. We know that even if it is a 60:40 spread, the 40% will sell very fast and be replenished fairly quickly.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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There are already many opportunities for children to get junk food without putting it in their faces when they are in school as well. The Department should really issue a directive on the matter. We need to take it more seriously. It is not good enough.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I agree it is not good enough, particularly when it is treated as an income stream. That was said here by a member of the boards of management delegation or a representative of the union. I cannot remember exactly the group.

Ms Rita Sexton:

We are aware that it is used as an income stream for schools. As I said earlier, it is a matter for the schools' boards of management. Currently the Department has no policy in place to ban vending machines.

Ms Rita Sexton:

It is because it is a matter for the schools' boards of management.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Why is it a matter for the schools' boards of management? The Department does not let them teach whatever curriculum they want in different subjects. I do not think that is micromanaging schools. I think it is a really good healthy policy for us to have. I ask the officials to go away and think about this as a policy we should implement in our schools. It is not healthy for anyone to have this regardless of income streams. That is pathetic. We need to get rid of them from schools. I have been talking about this for seven years.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department have the data from the schools given that it is aware of the income stream? Is the Department aware of the schools that have vending machines?

Ms Rita Sexton:

Our last life skills survey showed that 27% of post primary schools had vending machines. We will again be running the life skills survey. I am here today to set out the current policy position. I will bring it back to the Department.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I think it will come to naming and shaming. As elected representatives, it is down to us. I will have no problem in naming and shaming the post primary schools that have vending machines in breach of healthy guidelines.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The clerk is asking us not to name.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I would name. It arises from a parliamentary question. There are many ways to skin a cat to get the information out there. It needs to be done.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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As a parting comment, representatives of the local authorities will appear before the committee soon. We have talked extensively about no-fry zones. However, it is nonsensical talking about a no-fry zone near a school when the school is providing junk food within the school. I would be very grateful if Ms Sexton and Mr. Cusack could report our comments to their colleagues and have this as an agenda item at some meeting soon. It would just take a directive from the Department of Education and Skills.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is an income stream which shows that there is a serious shortfall for schools.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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However, how are the other schools managing?

I thank all the witnesses for their very helpful and useful contributions. We appreciate them taking the time to appear before the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.18 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 10 October 2018.