Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 26 September 2018

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality

International Security Fund: Motion

9:00 am

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will now resume in public session. The purpose of the meeting is to consider a Government motion to exercise the right to opt in pursuant to Protocol 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, also known as the Lisbon treaty, to a measure in the civil justice area. The proposal is to accept COM(2018)472 of the European Parliament and of the Council, a regulation establishing the internal security fund.

I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality and his officials. All members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind everyone that mobile phones should be switched off.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to bring what I am sure members will agree is a good news story and a positive initiative on the part of the Department of Justice and Equality and the European Union. I am joined by my officials, Mr. Donal Kerr and Mr. Patrick McCabe. The purpose of the motion is to seek approval of the Oireachtas to exercise Ireland’s options under the 21st protocol annexed to the Lisbon treaty in respect of the proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing the internal security fund.

Events of the last few years unfortunately demonstrate that security threats have intensified and diversified across the European Union. The nature of these threats has not remained static but has evolved. We see today that the threats European citizens face are increasingly cross-border in nature, meaning that member states must co-operate. The European budget can support member states as we work to keep our citizens safe and, together, build a Union that is resilient to future security challenges and is better equipped to respond to emergencies that may arise.

The continued attractiveness of the EU as a politically and economically stable place in which to live, travel and do business depends greatly on its reputation as a genuine area of freedom, security and justice. Among many other things, this requires that we minimise the threats from terrorism and serious cross-border criminality, including the scourge of terrorism, the ongoing menace of organised crime and the new frontier of cybercrime, which can have potentially devastating consequences for businesses, individuals and IT security. Ireland has always been, and will continue to be, an enthusiastic and proactive supporter of co-operation in these areas.

The objectives of the internal security fund are based on the scope of its predecessor instruments, namely, the security and safeguarding liberties programme in the period from 2007 to 2013; the instrument for police co-operation, preventing and combating crime and crisis management, ISF-P, which was established by Regulation (EU) No. 513/2014 and formed part of the internal security fund in the period from 2014 to 2020; and the drugs policy part of the justice programme established by Regulation (EU) No. 1382/2013 in the period from 2014 to 2020. All of these imperatives require financial support for the development of closer co-operation between law enforcement authorities, and for the exchange of personnel, ideas and best practice.

Ireland participates in the current ISF regulation, ISF-P, for the period from 2014 to 2020. The current ISF fund has enabled high-volume investments, especially in IT systems, from which Ireland has benefitted, for example, Ireland’s connection to the fixed Interpol network database, FIND, for linked member countries to access Interpol’s global databases. Under the current ISF, An Garda Síochána acts as both the responsible authority and the audit authority. My Department regularly reviews expenditure under the current ISF fund in Ireland through the ISF monitoring committee. The monitoring committee is comprised of officials from both my Department and An Garda Síochána and works to ensure that Ireland achieves the maximum benefit from our allocated funding in full compliance with European Union law.

I will briefly describe the main features of the proposal. The future ISF structure will contain a single general objective, which will be to contribute to ensuring a high level of security in the Union. in particular by tackling terrorism and radicalisation, serious and organised crime and cybercrime and by assisting and protecting victims of crime. This reflects the Union's security policy. The overall objective is supplemented by the following three important horizontal objectives: to increase the exchange of information among member states' law enforcement and other competent authorities and other relevant Union bodies as well as with third countries and international organisations; to intensify cross-border joint operations among member states' law enforcement and other competent authorities in respect of serious and organised crime with a cross-border dimension; and to support efforts at strengthening the capabilities in combating and preventing crime, including terrorism in particular, through increased co-operation between public authorities, civil society and private partners across the member states.

These are important objectives for all member states and the Union as a whole. Ireland welcomes the commitment to enhancing the safety of all citizens by improving the capacity of member states to engage in active co-operation. Reflecting the increased threats faced by European citizens and the attendant increased need for member states to work collectively to fight such threats, an important development in the proposal for the future ISF is the Commission’s intention to multiply Union funding for internal security by a factor of 1.8. The financial envelope of the internal security fund in the period from 2021 to 2027 will be €2.5 billion in current prices. This increase in funding is welcome and demonstrates the Union's determination to be a place of safety and security for all Europeans.

The main challenge the proposal aims to address is the need for greater flexibility in managing the future fund, along with tools to ensure that funding is steered towards EU priorities and actions with a significant added value to the Union. The funding is implemented through shared management by the member states and direct-indirect management by the Commission. A new thematic facility comprising €1 billion will be allocated periodically allowing the funds, at the initiative of the Commission, to support targeted actions by member states and allow for a rapid response to immediate security challenges or emergencies. The programming of actions under the thematic facility would be implemented through annual and multiannual work programmes adopted by the Commission implementing decision. This new thematic facility will make it possible to address new priorities or take urgent action and to implement them through the delivery mode that is best placed to achieve the policy objective as time progresses during the funds period from 2021 to 2027.

Allocations under the future internal security fund will be based on a 60% to 40% split. Some 50%, or €1.25 billion, will be allocated to member states initially, with a later mid-term allocation of 10% or €250 million. The remaining 40% - €1 billion - will be assigned to the new thematic facility. Each member state will receive a one-time fixed amount of €5 million to ensure a critical mass at the start of the programming period, plus an amount varying according to a distribution key weighted on the following criteria: 45% in inverse proportion to gross domestic product; 40% in proportion to the size of the population of the member state; and 15% in proportion to the size of its territory.

Importantly, this proposal also sets out the general principles that expenditure under the ISF must be consistent with EU policies and priorities, must be implemented in close co-operation between the Commission and the member states, and must be subject to sound financial management. The proposal also contain provisions on management and control of the fund. The proposal makes provision for the inclusion of the European Union Agency for Law Enforcement Cooperation, Europol, the European Union Agency for Law Enforcement Training, CEPOL, and the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, EMCDDA, in the process of developing of member states' national programmes, and for these agencies' participation in monitoring and evaluation tasks under the proposal. Member states will be required to submit annual performance reports from 2023 onward. I am confident these measures and others to be further set out by the Commission in implementing acts will ensure that the future ISF achieves its objectives and delivers the maximum benefit for European citizens.

This proposal, while largely technical in nature, provides an effective foundation for the internal security fund for the period from 2021 to 2027.

This is, of course, welcome. The proposal does not present any particular policy issue for Ireland and the Office of the Attorney General advises that it sees no legal impediment to opting in. I am strongly of the view that Ireland should participate in the adoption and application of each of these proposed measures. In doing so, Ireland will be in a position to benefit from financial assistance in pursuit of the various forms of police co-operation to which the proposed measures relate. Our participation in the adoption of the measure would give Ireland a say in the final content, including on particular budgetary allocations within and between each measure. Opting in at this point does not necessarily imply that all elements of the proposal are acceptable to Ireland. Rather, it is a simple acknowledgement that we support the substance of the proposals and wish to participate in their negotiation and adoption. Opting in now will lend weight to any policy position we adopt during the negotiation process and allow us to maximise our influence over the final shape of each regulation. I hope the committee can support the exercise of Ireland's opt-in in respect of the proposed regulation.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Before I bring in the members who have indicated, I note that the process this morning is one of consideration. We do not have to make a decision as a committee; that is a matter for the Houses themselves. I call Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Aire as teacht isteach. Co-operation on security and tackling crime internationally is important. However, this is a substantial fund and one which is different in a number of respects from the 2014 to 2020 programme. I have a number of questions, which I ask the Minister to answer as briefly as he can, and I may then offer some observations. What is the expected State financial contribution approximately to the new programme?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Ireland is now a net contributor to the European Union. As such, it is difficult to specify what the Irish contribution to this fund will be as we are benefitting. The fund will be drawn down by Ireland. As our contribution must be seen as part of our overall EU contribution, it is not possible to identify how much we will contribute to the particular scheme or programme. Rather, we will draw down a benefit, which will total of €9 million over nine programmes.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is difficult to imagine that we could not calculate that. Perhaps the Minister does not have it right now. While there is a general overall allocation to Europe, I presume that if a country can opt out, the calculation of the budget of the fund can be made. If it can be done centrally in Europe, we should surely be able to figure out roughly what we will contribute to this. We may be net contributors to the EU, but will we be net contributors to, or beneficiaries of, this particular fund?

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is beneficiaries in this instance. Is that not the case? It is going the other way.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is an EU fund totalling €2.5 billion and we will benefit under the scheme. We will not make a contribution to the fund as such.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will make a contribution to the EU budget.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Which we do anyway.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Very well. The Minister said there was an audit committee for the ISF. How often has the audit committee met during the lifetime of the current programme?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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There will be two committees, including a domestic Garda audit committee, which will monitor spending domestically. As with all EU funds, there are strict EU audit guidelines. In this regard, there is a specifically designated monitoring committee, which will be chaired by an official in my Department. The committee will be charged with the responsibility of monitoring the funding and working closely in that regard with An Garda Síochána. This body will remain in close contact with the audit committee of An Garda Síochána. As such, we will have internal and external auditing and monitoring. Members will be aware of the need to comply strictly at all times with EU audit regulations.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I asked about.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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As to how often the committee will sit-----

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I asked how often it had met.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It has not sat as yet.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is a standing audit committee for the current programme. I am asking how often that has met.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It meets on a regular basis and keeps in constant contact with An Garda Síochána and any other interested body.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have the information to hand on how often it has met?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am told that it meets on at least a quarterly basis.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This fund is substantially larger than the previous fund. There is an increase in overall funding of between 84% and 112%. The increased budget is aimed partly at increasing the flexibility of the fund to accommodate targeted actions as agreed by the Commission. A sum of €1 billion will be allocated to provide that fluidity. I understand that the single rulebook will allow the interworking of this fund with other projects and programmes of the European Union. Could that include projects involving elements of the Common Security and Defence Policy, Frontex and the Integrated Border Management Fund? Is that fair to say?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We sought advice from the Office of the Attorney General on the scope of our opt-in and we are satisfied that it is in line with what we have agreed on close co-operation with our EU partners. My recommendation to the Houses of the Oireachtas is that we opt into this fund as it is entirely within the scope of our membership of the European Union and our engagement on security co-operation and defence.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure that is a direct answer to the question I asked. Is it possible to use moneys from the flexible element of the fund so that the Commission can advance projects related to the Common Security and Defence Policy, Frontex or the Integrated Border Management Fund? Is that within the scope of the Commission? As I understand it, the Commission is responsible for targeted actions under the project. Is that possible?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The ISF-P has one objective with two security specific objectives, namely better exchange of information and increased operational co-operation. While we have concerns regarding certain aspects of the proposals, we are satisfied that the use of the funding as far as we are concerned will not extend beyond Ireland's association with European security and defence.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Three specific policies have been outlined. Can moneys from the ISF be used for projects which cross over with those three projects? It is a reasonably straightforward question.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That may be as far as the entire fund is concerned, but not in terms of any drawdown on the part of Ireland.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We may be net contributors but, by opting in, we are supporting the potential expenditure of that money, either directly or indirectly. The Minister mentioned some concerns. Can he elaborate on the concerns the Department has and how they might be rectified in the negotiations? How is it intended to spend the moneys drawn down under the upcoming programme?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The proposals are at an early stage. There has been a general welcome for them across EU states. Some states have indicated they are not particularly happy with every aspect of every proposal. Ireland has no particular concerns with the proposal as currently drafted. However, we very much welcome our inclusion. The Government is anxious to become involved in the process early and that is why I hope to have the approval of the Houses of the Oireachtas by 2 October in order that Ireland can signal its early intention to become involved in this architecture. The Government is particularly keen to ensure the relationship between member states and third countries be established early and intensified. The reason for that is the impending withdrawal of our nearest neighbours, the UK, from the Union. The manner in which it operates provides for a greater development of relations between the Union and third countries, having regard to the fact that the likelihood is that the UK will be a third country. The Government has no concerns at present but it is monitoring its engagement and involvement with the roll-out of the proposals. Once Ireland is at the table, it will be able to ensure that its voice is particularly heard and its influence brought to bear. As far as the Government and the Attorney General are concerned, nothing that has been proposed is an issue that can cause any concern to Ireland in terms of its relationship with European security and defence. Any changes to that would be subject to ratification by Dáil Éireann in any event.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The second element of my question was not answered in respect of what the Government intends to do with any money that is drawn down.

The Minister has outlined that he has concerns but it is not crystal clear what they are. My concern is that the European Commission could decide to spend a substantial element of this fund any way it wishes, or to direct it be spent in any way it wishes, as long as there is a security element to it.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The thing to remember is that the European Commission could do that if the Government does not decide to opt in.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister talked about being eager to be involved in the process as early as possible. Have any Irish Ministers or officials been involved in the proposals that have been put forward to date?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Irish officials are very much involved. I am involved at home affairs level with the European Council and subcommittees thereof. As far as the monitoring of this issue is concerned, Ireland has a seat at the table and is very much actively involved at working group level and on the subcommittee on financial instruments relating to justice and home affairs through our office in Brussels and directly from Dublin.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister stressed enhancing the safety of all EU citizens and the need to minimise the threat of terrorism. Much of that threat is perceived to be coming from extreme elements from certain regions of the world. Was there any talk about the fact that the UK and France are currently arming the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, both of which are involved in one of the worst humanitarian crises on the planet at the moment in Yemen? Has that been discussed?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have not been party to any discussions on those issues. That would be an issue more particular to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. The Government gives the highest priority to the security of the State and while there is not, and has not been, a specific threat to Ireland from international terrorist organisations, there is no complacency, as I have said previously. It is incumbent on our authorities to ensure they take all the necessary security measures proportionate to any threat. That is why opting into this fund will increase Ireland's capacity in respect of the sharing of information and ensuring we are well placed, along with our EU colleagues. The Garda and the Army continue to carry out regular focused training exercises, both separately and together, often discreetly and sometimes in public, to ensure we are prepared. On the specific issue of the policy choices of our EU colleagues, that is not something to which I have been a party.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister says that if Ireland opts in it will be in a better position to have influence. That is true to a certain degree. If the Government is worried about the safety of EU citizens and minimising the threat of terrorism, does the Minister not think we should try and stop the wars that are going on around the world? If Ireland is going to opt in, it should be working for peace in order to reduce terrorism. Ireland should be challenging the UK and France who are supplying Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates with arms that are creating untold destruction in Yemen. Would the Irish Government be prepared to challenge the UK and France in this area, if Ireland did opt in?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Government maintains strong bilateral relations with the UK and France. These may be issues that form part of bilateral discussions from time to time but this is an instrument relating to internal security funding. No aspect of this relates to a defence or military purpose. The UK is not participating, as it is leaving the European Union, and, therefore, I am not sure whether the points the Deputy is making are relevant to this debate or this committee.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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What about France? France is not leaving the EU.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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France is not leaving the Union but this relates to internal security measures by way of precaution. This committee is not engaged in the broader policy issue of bilateral relations between Ireland and France in terms of advice or otherwise. That is not part of today's debate.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister has contradicted his own argument. A few minutes ago, he told us that greater development of co-operation between the EU and third countries would be a crucial factor in this. Does the Minister not think, if this fund is designed to minimise the threat of terrorism, that there is merit in looking at the fact that as long as member states, or third countries with which they might want to co-operate, are involved in untold destruction in regions not far from European borders, that will undermine the security of EU citizens? Is that not a concern for the Government?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Of course, it is a concern. The security of the EU and Ireland's domestic borders is a matter of considerable concern. The Union is putting together an internal fund for disbursement throughout member states. Ireland is opting in and it is all about internal EU security and funding.

We are not dealing with the overall foreign policy of other EU countries. However important it might be, it is not an issue for this debate and it is not an issue of concern in the putting together of this fund to safeguard and bolster the internal security of the European Union.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister said he does not want to encroach on the foreign policy of other countries, although it appears to me that this fund will bring them closer together. If the Minister does not want to talk about them, why not talk about our own foreign policy? Has there been any discussion of working towards greater security in Europe in general, including in Ireland? Has the Government considered putting an end to the US military use of Shannon in the interest of peace?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Government has no plans in that regard.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In deference to all members, we have a timeframe for discussing this matter and I ask speakers to be cognisant of it.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I support opting in. It is important we recognise there are threats to citizens within the European Union. They do not only come from terrorism but also from organised crime. Increased co-operation between member states is necessary, particularly as a result of Brexit. Many member states have significant experience of terrorism and the damage it can cause, including this country. We cannot hide away from the fact that threats exist. The fund is €2.5 billion and €1.5 billion will go to member states. Each member state will get €5 million at the outset and a sum will then be calculated based on the domestic product, population and territory of each country. How much will Ireland get from that €1.5 billion?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That will largely depend on the types of programmes we participate in. A sum of €5 million will be provided in respect of the initial schemes. Assuming Ireland engages in better information exchange and increased operational co-operation, it is intended that the allocation will increase over the period of the programme.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said in his paper that each member state will receive a one-time fixed amount of €5 million and the rest will be calculated based on 45% in inverse proportion to GDP, 40% in proportion to the size of the population and 15% in proportion to the size of the territory. That is something that can be calculated very readily in respect of Ireland. I cannot do it. Has the Department done it?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is an initial €5 million. It is estimated it could rise to €9 million and perhaps more.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister agree that we would hope to receive more than €9 million from a fund of €1.5 billion?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It will depend on the number of programmes involved. Initially, the allocation will be €5 million and the likelihood is, as we engage in further programmes in the overall scheme, the allocation will rise in the context of the nine programmes.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The other €1 billion is for a thematic facility. What is that thematic facility and where will it be based?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The level of programmes will be worked out between the Garda Síochána and the European Commission. That is why we are very keen to have this matter addressed at the earliest opportunity. Opting in now will allow us to participate in the initial €5 million portion and then the further amounts in accordance with the breakdown. As far as the thematic arrangement is concerned, it will be organised through Brussels and primarily focused on emergency responses the European Union will face.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding of the statement that a new thematic facility that be allocated €1 billion, and I may be wrong, is that there will be some new permanent European base from which funding will be derived. Where will it be based? Will it be located in Brussels?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The disbursement and distribution of the funding will be through Brussels. It is too early to say there will be a permanent operational office. This is something that may well be considered in the context of the ongoing evolution of the programme.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister outline the link with PESCO and his Department's correspondence on this matter with other Departments, specifically the Department of Defence?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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This will be a fund administered through the Garda Síochána.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Exclusively.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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There will not be a mandate for the Department of Defence. We will continue to work closely with the Garda Síochána. The Garda Síochána will prepare the aspects of the programme for Ireland in conjunction with the European Commission. There is no front-line involvement by the Department of Defence.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister mentioned the Army in one of his responses. Was he referring to co-operation with a programme led by the Garda Síochána in which the Army would have an involvement?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Would it be-----

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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What discussions have there been on that? I assume there will have to be PESCO co-operation with this programme at an EU level.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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This programme will be exclusively led by the Garda Síochána. Any involvement of military personnel or the Department of Defence will be in the context of current relations and discussions between the Garda Síochána and the Department of Defence as far as emergency planning and otherwise-----

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Surely with a terrorist response there would have to be co-operation outside of-----

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but there will not be any designated funding within this programme for military personnel or the Department of Defence. This is exclusively the responsibility of the Garda Síochána.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I read a report recently about this. Is the decommissioning of some nuclear facilities, including safety matters, part of this? Will one of the programmes provide funding towards that?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I do not have any information on that.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister give examples of some of the other programmes that this thematic facility will provide for?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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There are nine programmes being funded in the 2014-20 period. These involve the sharing of information, the application of appropriate hardware domestically and across the European Union and the appropriate software that will allow for the sharing of information and identification, for example, of passengers. Some of the schemes under the EU Prüm Convention are automatic fingerprinting, facial recognition, working closely with Interpol and other agencies and, for example, the roll-out of what will be the passenger information exchange, the increased level of advanced security at airports and facial recognition. We are very keen that Ireland will play a full role in all of these programmes. There are particular challenges for us from a security perspective in the context of Brexit. We are keen to be at the table early to ensure we can participate in what will be best practice in the fight against terror, including in the exchange of suspects' names and watch lists, all of which is required to be done at very short notice, and the availability of information on identification and fingerprinting of those persons who would come into the State.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister support the establishment of a new agency if what I described emerges from it?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am very keen, having regard to the current international situation and the changing nature of organised crime and international terrorism, that Ireland fully participates in order to ensure we are best placed to protect our people. Whether that involves the creation of new agencies or closer co-operation under current agencies is something that is under discussion as developments evolve.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister be putting in a bid, as other Ministers are doing, for Ireland to host the agency or is it too early to do that?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am always keen to ensure that Ireland continues to play a leading role within the European Union. In terms of security and defence, I am very conscious of our constitutional position. I am anxious, therefore, to ensure that our people are safe and secure, that we have the modern technological advances to facilitate that and that we keep in close contact with our European colleagues. That will involve the expenditure of funding on a national basis to ensure that, for example, we fully participate in Schengen information systems and in the Prüm regulatory framework. As I said, I am very keen that this particular fund be favourably considered having regard to the fact that Ireland will be a beneficiary of a multimillion euro budget. I am anxious to ensure we commence active engagement at the earliest opportunity.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Clare Daly who will be followed by Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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There is a frightening lack of detail in the responses that have been given so far. I am wondering what the big hurry is, given that we are under time pressure with other events today and the seriousness of this issue. The Minister made the point that he wants to be involved early to exercise influence. I would question how much influence we will have given that we are a pittance in the big picture, as indicated from the financial figures mentioned earlier. What is the big rush? What is the problem? Why do we need to have this completed by tomorrow? Presumably, it is a choice. We can join later on if we have a proper debate about it.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I would have thought it was both logical and desirable that we would participate early. Many of these programmes are only being developed. If we are involved at the initial stage of the development of these programmes, we can have our voice heard and exercise a level of influence. The preparatory work involved will be time-consuming, especially as there are a considerable number of proposals within the justice and home affairs section being pursued at the same time. The final language publication occurred last year, as far as the setting up is concerned. Accordingly, I was very keen early on in the session that we would be in a position to participate. It is not often possible to meet deadlines; we saw that last night in terms of a Seanad debate with Senator Ó Donnghaile. I always take the view that if we can get in early, we can help shape the architecture. I believe that is important. In the overall context, we need to ensure that the Garda Síochána, as the dedicated responsibility authority under the current scheme, is also fully prepared to embrace what to my mind is a very positive initiative. I ask members to do what the Chairman proposed at the outset, namely, that he would note it, but I hope that at an early stage tomorrow or next week the Houses of the Oireachtas could approve the motion. As the programme is rolled out, both I and the Garda Commissioner would be very happy to keep the committee informed of developments insofar as we can.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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To go back to the question I asked, we know the Minister believes it is logical and desirable that we would join early because that would enable us to have a greater influence. I am not sure that argument stands up to serious scrutiny given the size of Ireland vis-à-visour European colleagues and their supposed expertise in dealing with terrorism and the like. In terms of my question, we know the Minister is in a mad hurry for us to sign up to this by next week. It is on the Dáil schedule for tomorrow, to be taken without debate. Given that I am none the wiser based on the vagueness of some of the answers colleagues have been given, I am asking what is the problem. Why does the motion need to be on the agenda for tomorrow, without debate? What are the consequences of that? I believe the Parliament needs to discuss it.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As a codicil to that, for clarification, is it possible to revisit the "without debate" provision? Could time be provided to give Members an opportunity to offer their views?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That would be a matter for the Business Committee. The deadline for notifying the Council is 2 October. That is next week. We were in recess and this is the second week back. I was here last week and we could have arranged to take the motion last week but the committee had a full schedule. If the Business Committee decides to have a Dáil debate on this issue tomorrow, I will be available, but the deadline for a completion by us is 2 October.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The deadline for what?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It was not possible to bring these motions during the summer recess. The Chairman had correspondence about the matter of the summer recess, not that we would want to revisit that, but I accept that schedules can be challenging.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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This is a very busy committee. My question was whether the world will cave in on 2 October. Clearly, we can join the new body after that date. What I am asking is-----

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have already said it is my belief that joining afterwards-----

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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We heard all that and I do not agree. I am just wondering, in weighing this up, about the consequences time-wise of Ireland not joining on 2 October. I know it would make the Minister unhappy but, apart from that, what would be the actual consequences?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is not that it would make me unhappy. The consequences would be that Ireland would not be participating at the shaping of these programmes, which I believe is important because when we are at the table we can voice and amplify our national interest. There is a particular issue, as far as the relationship with third countries is concerned, that we are very keen to elaborate upon, having regard to the imminent withdrawal of our nearest neighbour and closest partner, the United Kingdom, from the European Union.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Could I clarify, as a codicil to Deputy Daly's question, if it is the case that the shaping process, as it was described, is to get under way on or shortly after 2 October?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes. These programmes are being rolled out. I believe it is important not only that we have a voice at the table early but also that we join in a way that allows us to enjoy a decision-making capacity and voting rights.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I hope if Ireland is at the table, we will be a little clearer than we are today. In terms of what I am asking, we heard that the Minister wants to participate on 2 October. Is there a barrier to the Minister participating on 17 October? Can he indicate that the Irish Parliament wants to discuss this matter and once we have sorted out the issue, we will attend on 17 October? Is it the case that if we do not adopt this by 2 October, we will have lost our chance for a year? Is there something that prevents us from doing so two weeks after 2 October?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I always believe it is important that we prepare. We want to be there for the adoption of the proposal at Union level.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I heard that but is there an impediment to us joining in a week or two later? That is the question.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think there is.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I do not think there is either.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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There is an impediment in terms of attending a week later. The impediment might be that we might not enjoy voting rights at the adoption of resolutions.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Pardon me?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am told on the one hand that I am exaggerating and that we do not have influence while, on the other hand, I am asked why we should bother attending for the initial stages of the drafting of the programme.

I do not subscribe to that view. It is important that Ireland takes its seat at the table, fully participates and has voting rights in the decision-making process and can use its influence. Although members of the Opposition may believe that influence is weak and innocuous, I believe it is far stronger than not having a seat at the table.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I did not ask why we should bother. I am concerned in regard to the backdrop of the view of the population on the Lisbon treaty. This is an opt-in in relation to the Lisbon treaty. I am very cognisant that we cannot divorce a discussion of internal security across Europe from security decisions made by the European Union such as to raise the borders and spend massive amounts of money on surveillance and security. Those decisions are a mismanagement of funding and increase the likelihood of terrorism because of our interference in other regions of the world and so on. Such decisions deserve scrutiny. I am trying to find out if the Dáil will have the opportunity to give them such scrutiny. I acknowledge the point made by the Minister. I intend to raise the issue tomorrow with the Business Committee. It would be very helpful to the Business Committee for the Minister to be amenable to answering questions on the matter in the Dáil and I will make members of that committee aware that he will facilitate that discussion. Through such a discussion, I hope to explore the consequences of Ireland delaying its joining the process, a matter on which I have not gotten any further clarity.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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There would be adverse consequences. We would not be involved in the initial stages and would not have voting rights. It would be a signal that we are less than committed to what most member states, including Ireland, regard to be a very welcome development in terms of the sharing of information, closer co-operation and benefitting from a multi-million euro fund such that the Garda Síochána could actively engage in formulating a programme for and on behalf of Ireland that would benefit our citizens and their security.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I will not say anything else on the matter. However, I do not accept the Minister's response because his argument has shifted. He stated earlier that we might not have voting rights but is now stating with certainty that we would not have voting rights.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I repeat that it is important that we participate at the earliest opportunity. Should the Houses of the Oireachtas decide otherwise, I will respect that decision. My argument to the committee is that this is a welcome development for Ireland and its security.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Senator Ó Donnghaile and Deputy Brophy to be as brief as possible in deference to our witnesses for the second session. I call Senator Ó Donnghaile.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I will be very brief. I share many of the concerns expressed by Deputy Clare Daly relating to the lack of clarity on some aspects of this matter. Although I may be wrong, it seems that in advocating for Ireland to be part of the process from the earliest possible stage in regard to the opt-out of third parties and third-party countries the Minister wishes to guard against some developments of concern which may impact on Ireland. In the context of an opt-in to the process, I ask the Minister for further reassurance that, either through the Garda or co-operation with the Commission and broader European structures, a hardening of policing along the Border will not be facilitated through this process.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Having regard to the committee's remit of engaging with An Garda Síochána on particular Garda programmes, I would rather that that issue were answered by representatives of An Garda Síochána because it appears to be an operational matter and an issue that would form part of a programme under the framework that will be designed by the Garda.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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The Government has publicly committed not to harden the Border and that there will be no additional infrastructure, a hardening of policing methods or anything else. In terms of appreciating the operational status, I ask the Minister, as a member of the Government, to give a reassurance that any opt-in to the programme will not result in its resources, whether financial or otherwise, being directed towards that kind of policing along the Border. What is the position of the Minister and his Department in that regard? I will also put that question to the Garda Commissioner.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Having regard to the public utterances of the British Government and, in particular, the British Prime Minister, Mrs. Theresa May, I am fully satisfied that there will not be a hard border on the island of Ireland consequent on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union. Neither I nor the Government are planning for such an eventuality.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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Is the Garda Síochána doing so?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I regard the Senator's question as being of little relevance as there will be no hard border on the island of Ireland. That is the view of the Irish and British Governments and the European Union.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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That is very hopeful of the Minister. My concern is that the Minister has not articulated the political position of the Government regarding an assurance that either he or the Garda will ensure that our participation in this programme does not result in greater policing of the Border or any form of hard border. That has been raised on several occasions this morning. It could arise as a result of pressure experienced domestically or applied by the European Commission.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Government will not countenance the reintroduction of a hard border on the island of Ireland, so the application of any EU funding towards such an endeavour is not an issue.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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In deference to the Chairman, I will await the arrival of the Commissioner before posing any further questions.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I call Deputy Colm Brophy, who will have the last word on this matter.

Photo of Colm BrophyColm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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If I lived in Paris, London or any of the other European cities which have been the victim of terrorist attacks in recent years or if I were the parent or family member of a person killed on a bridge or mown down by a terrorist, I would be at my wits' end listening to some of the spurious arguments being wheeled out here this morning. I ask the Minister to confirm my understanding of what he outlined, namely, that this is a measure which European Union countries wish to enact to help fight terrorism. I appreciate that some people have historical baggage about fighting terrorism but this is a measure which will enable the European Union to preserve the type of structures we want to see, such as the ability for people to go out in the evening in their own city or country and securely move from one EU member state to another, and to ensure that the security services of the European Union act and co-ordinate together and with third countries where possible to ensure that we do not have situations similar to those which, unfortunately, have occurred so often in recent years. If that is the intent of this proposal, it behoves us all to think of those impacted by such events and work towards the speedy implementation of the proposal.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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By way of concluding remarks, unless there are further interventions, I point out that the purpose of the proposal is to assist member states of the European Union to intensify co-operation on a cross-border basis. This is done to ensure that we are prepared for terrorist attacks, engaged at a high level in the prevention of such and prepared for investigations of organised crime terrorist attacks while ensuring our people are protected.

I am very keen to do this at the earliest opportunity so that our voice is heard at the table and we have our voting rights under Article 3. This is all about co-operation and ensuring we can benefit from the European architecture for information that is available. This is a fund the EU is making available to member states and Ireland can be a beneficiary of this fund. Having regard to the pressures on the public finances, particularly in the area of justice and home affairs, I would have thought this would be seen as a welcome development by this committee. I am very keen for Ireland's voice to be heard at the table at the earliest opportunity and for gardaí to be able to sit down with the European Commission and work on the various programmes that are involved. We will keep the committee involved, as far as we can, as to the nature and roll-out of these programmes, all of which have the objective of protecting our citizens.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Everyone should note that, in my view, there is no lack of resolve on the part of any member of this committee, or of these Houses, to face the challenges of organised crime and international terrorism. It is absolutely right and proper that members tease out all the elements of what is being put before us today. The Minister's opening remarks were helpful but we did not have sight of them in advance.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is the Chairman saying the committee did not have sight of them in advance?

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No, in fairness, we did have sight of them but this is the first time colleagues have had the chance to engage on this matter. It is only right and proper that they do so. If it had been possible for members to have been more informed as to some of the detail, it would have been to their benefit and it could have led to a more informed assessment. The Business Committee will make its determination tomorrow as to how this progresses. I thank the Minister for his attendance today.