Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Éamon Ó Cuív and Martin Kenny. I remind members, witnesses and the people in the Gallery to turn off their mobile phones because they interfere gravely with the sound system. I ask everyone to take a moment to check their phones.

The committee has included road connectivity and, in particular, rural transport among its priority policy issues for 2018. This is our third meeting on rural transport. We met officials from the National Transport Authority, NTA, on 28 March last and we met officials from Irish Rail on 23 May last. We also met officials from various agencies on 23 May to discuss the flooding problems at Ballycar on the railway line between Galway and Limerick. We will return to this topic in November 2018 to consider the progress that will have been made by that date. The programme for Government, the rural development action plan and the national planning framework address the need for quality rural transportation, including bus services within regions and connectivity with long-distance rail and bus services. Such forms of transport benefit rural communities and make them more sustainable and help to address social exclusion. In addition, increased use of public transport helps to reduce the effects of climate change through reduced carbon emissions.

Today we are joined by representatives of the NTA and Bus Éireann, both of which are heavily involved in the implementation of rural transport policy. After they have made their opening statements, I will invite the members of the committee to put questions to them. I suggest that members should limit their questioning to between three and five minutes. They may come in more than once.

I will now read some formal notices for the information of witnesses. I draw their attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise the witnesses that any submissions, opening statements or other documents they have supplied to the committee will be published on its website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Anne Graham, who is the chief executive officer of the NTA, Mr. Tim Gaston, who is the NTA's director of public transport services, and Ms Margaret Malone, who is the NTA's rural transport manager. I also welcome Mr. Ray Hernan, who is the chief executive of Bus Éireann, Mr. John Sheridan, who is Bus Éireann's operations manager, and Mr. Robert O'Mahony, who is Bus Éireann's public service obligation network works manager. I ask Ms Graham to make an opening statement on behalf of the NTA. She was here at the end of March and she is very welcome back to the committee today.

Ms Anne Graham:

I thank the committee for inviting me to attend today's meeting. I understand it wants me to address the topic of rural transport. To assist me in dealing with subsequent questions, I am joined by Mr. Tim Gaston, who is our director of public transport services, and Ms Margaret Malone, who is our rural transport manager.

Before I deal with the specific areas of focus, I would like to set the context by providing a brief overview of the NTA's remit in respect of rural transport services. Public transport in rural areas is provided in various ways. Iarnród Éireann provides rail services under contract with the NTA. Any changes in rail services require the approval of the NTA. Bus Éireann provides a variety of services through its commercial Expressway services, which are licensed by the NTA, and through a network of subsidised public bus services under a direct award contract with the NTA. Both services serve many rural towns with frequencies varying from weekly to several times a day. Any changes in subsidised services require the approval of the NTA. Other commercial operators provide a number of town-to-town services and intercity services across the State without any State subsidy. If Bus Éireann or any commercial operator is required to withdraw any of its commercial services, the NTA works to ensure communities are not left behind.

The bus services that are provided under the rural transport programme are contracted by the NTA and are managed by 17 Local Link offices throughout the State. Although some 80% of these services are demand responsive, regular scheduled services between towns are also provided under this programme.

The rural transport programme is now known as Local Link. Its objective is to provide a good quality nationwide community-based public transport system in rural Ireland which responds to local needs. Key features of the rural transport programme include the completion of 1.9 million passenger journeys per annum, with 900,000 of those journeys provided for free travel passengers. These figures include 200,000 million passengers who required assistance. We also provided an average of 150,000 service trips annually. Local Link services travel over 11.8 million kilometres annually. More than 400 private operators provide the services, using the services of almost 900 drivers. The programme funds the provision of once-off trips for individuals and community and voluntary groups to help address lack of transport as a factor in social exclusion. Some 62% of service trips are defined as either fully or partially accessible.

Over the past two years, the authority has supported the expansion of rural transport services to include regular commuter bus services. Operating at least five times per day over a five, six or seven days per week schedule, these services are specifically designed to ensure connectivity with other public transport services. This connectivity facilitates passengers to make onward journeys typically to access education, employment, health, recreational and other opportunities.

The authority recently produced its Rural Transport Programme Strategic Plan 2018-2022 which sets out nine key objectives for delivery over the lifetime of the plan. The key priorities of the programme continue to include addressing rural social exclusion and the integration of rural transport services with other public transport services. The authority is implementing one of the listed actions in the strategy under objective area eight - encouraging innovation in rural transport service provision - regarding the provision of evening and night services to address unmet transport needs in rural areas. Twelve of the 17 Local Link groups applied for funding and proposals were assessed by the authority, having regard to evidence of need, previous experience in delivering evening and night-time services, value for money, geographical spread on a national basis, range and mix of proposed modes of transport, connectivity and integration with existing transport options while not representing a displacement risk to existing services, and potential for the mainstreaming of pilot projects

The outcome of the assessment process was that a total of 53 additional services were approved for funding. The details of those services can be found in the appendix attached. The key characteristics of these new services include the fact that 19 of these services are extensions to existing regular public transport services. There are 34 demand-responsive services. The services will be provided nationally across 19 counties, and will run on average from 6 p.m. to 11 p.m., typically on Friday and Saturday evenings. All 53 initially approved services will be operational by late June or early July 2018 and will run until December 2018 on a pilot basis. In terms of reviewing the usage and patronage levels on these pilot services, the authority will closely monitor usage patterns and trends over the six-month period and advise the Department accordingly.

As five Local Link groups did not make an initial application, the authority advised in mid-May that it would consider any further proposed services from these groups should a need or demand exist in the transport co-ordination unit, TCU, area. A revised closing date of Friday, 1 June was set for receipt of applications, and all five Local Link groups subsequently submitted applications. These applications are being assessed by the transport planning team within the authority and a decision regarding funding is due shortly.

The authority is continually working with Bus Éireann to provide improvements on its contracted services and is looking at expansion of those services given that the budget for public service obligations has increased since 2016. The authority also promoted the improvements in regional cities, which have seen phenomenal growth in passenger numbers. These improvements cannot be sustained unless significant improvement work is carried out by the city authorities in providing bus priority measures, particularly now as car traffic congestion is growing rapidly. The work in enhancing the services provided by Bus Éireann has been delayed significantly as it has had to prioritise the changes required as part of its business recovery plan. It is expected that Bus Éireann will complete that work shortly and that we can recommence the service enhancement work.

The authority recognises that there are many gaps in our services provision. We have focused on the lack of service in our main towns and are prioritising the provision of new town services in Kilkenny, Carlow and Mullingar, all of which have a population in the 19,000 to 26,000 range.

In exercising its functions, the authority seeks to achieve the provision of an integrated public transport system of services and networks for all users. Wherever appropriate, we seek to integrate and co-ordinate services to provide for seamless travel options where change of bus and-or mode is required. This includes the operation of rural transport services - Local Link - which can facilitate connecting to mainline interurban services, irrespective of the provider of those services. In fact, the National Transport Authority, NTA, is the only body that can bring modes and operators together in an integrated service pattern that provides the best service for rural communities.

There are a number of key infrastructural items that support public transport which are required to increase the attractiveness of public transport, especially in rural Ireland. These include bus shelters, accessible bus stops and information at stops. The provision of additional shelters has been very constrained in recent years due to a lack of funding. The contract for the provision and maintenance of bus shelters now rests with the NTA rather than with each individual operator. We are well placed to deliver a comprehensive shelter programme.

Our ambition is to deliver high-quality public transport in rural areas. It is expected that funding will improve from 2019. The authority needs to be in a position to put in place the staff resources that can deliver on our ambitious programme of improvements. I trust that we can answer any queries that arise.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

I thank the committee for inviting my colleagues, Mr. Robert O'Mahony and Mr. John Sheridan, and me to discuss the topic of rural-based public transport, rural connectivity, and the role that Bus Éireann plays in providing those services. As the largest operator of public transport services, we recognise the key role we have and will continue to have in providing a range of public transport services outside Dublin in close partnership with key stakeholders.

Bus Éireann operates a fleet of approximately 650 buses, providing 6,500 services on more than 220 routes every day to people in towns and villages throughout Ireland. Within our road passenger network we have more than 1.2 million different origin and destination combinations, and more than 10,000 bus stops are serviced in both urban and rural settings. We provide city services in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, but we also provide town services in Sligo, Athlone, Dundalk, Drogheda, Navan and Balbriggan. We provide urban and rural services that link practically every town in Ireland, which is particularly important in locations where there is no rail link. Last year, Bus Éireann transported almost 38 million passengers on our scheduled services, while our school transport services carried in excess of 115,000 students every school day on almost 6,800 routes to more than 3,000 schools.

As a person from a rural background, I am well aware of the challenges faced every day by rural communities throughout the country and the ever-increasing level of commuting to work, college and other locations. The fundamental principles of our approach to delivering public transport is to provide a reliable and punctual service that provides value for money to our customers. Bus Éireann is not just the largest public transport provider but also a significant employer, providing direct employment to more than 2,500 employees across 17 locations. Bus Éireann works closely with its large base of suppliers in communities throughout Ireland. We contract in more than €110 million from small, locally based private transport service providers, mainly for school transport services, meaning that Bus Éireann is the largest customer of the indigenous private sector in Ireland. This school transport scheme is a very good example of rural mobility and rural modal shift, providing sustainable employment in both urban and rural settings.

We believe that there are some basic building blocks that are fundamental to the integrated backbone network of services that we provide. Each journey that begins from village to town to provincial city and possibly on to Dublin and beyond is important to us, and it is the network of services provided within available funding and resources that makes mobility possible for all our rural or urban-based passengers.

Bus Éireann services connect with a significant number of Local Link services nationwide, and I believe that the provision of improved and enhanced services will further the opportunity for greater connectivity throughout Ireland.

In the past year, Bus Éireann, with the financial support of the NTA, implemented a completely revised and enhanced town service in Athlone. Service enhancements like this have resulted in a 91% increase in passenger numbers within the first 12 months and will continue to facilitate and drive modal shift. Significant service enhancements were also implemented along the M3 corridor in quarter 3 of 2017. This year further investment will see further service enhancements in the cities of Galway, Limerick and Waterford, the towns of Drogheda and Sligo and local services in Mayo, west Cork and west Clare. The enhancements outlined, which total approximately 50 changes to frequency or entail new services, will provide new services in the next three months, will provide greater access to local educational, employment and health facilities within the wider region.

In appreciating the value of connectivity, Bus Éireann is supportive of a proposal to facilitate a "town hub and spoke" approach where Local Link would interchange into the backbone network provided by Bus Éireann. This would make best use of the NTA investment in Bus Éireann services in recent years and would be focused on increasing efficiency and effectiveness in the overall public transport offering outside Dublin. While 86% of the Bus Éireann fleet is wheelchair accessible, I acknowledge that to facilitate the further roll-out of accessible services to our passengers, further investment is required at bus stops nationwide.

Again, with the assistance of the NTA, a significant investment in fleet will result in more than 135 new vehicles entering the Bus Éireann fleet over the next 12 months. These new vehicles encompass a variety of fleet types, all of which are low floor and wheelchair accessible and will be distributed across our nationwide network, including the improvements I referenced earlier. In order to service this ongoing expansion of the national network, Bus Éireann is now at an advanced stage in a recruitment campaign that seeks to recruit an additional 190 employees, made up primarily of drivers and mechanics. These new positions will be required in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Mayo, Waterford and many other locations across the country.

Building on the steady growth of public transport usage outside the Dublin metropolitan area that has occurred in the past two to three years, Bus Éireann welcomes all initiatives that will increase public transport usage across Ireland, including the recently launched BusConnects and looks forward to its roll-out outside of the greater Dublin area, GDA, at the earliest possible opportunity.

Congestion is no longer a Dublin city issue as many regional cities and towns are experiencing longer journey times, most acutely in the morning and evening peaks. In recent years, congestion has had a significant impact on the average speed of Bus Éireann services and subsequent journey times. In order to ensure efficient journey times, timetable adherence and subsequent modal shift, it is critical that large-scale bus priority measures are put in place. That will ensure the most efficient use of our fleet while ensuring reliable journey times for our customers.

I wish to re-emphasise to the committee that Bus Éireann remains committed to providing as many inter-regional services connecting rural communities to the main population centres. This applies also to our Expressway commercial services. It will be appreciated by the members here today that we do not receive any public subsidy for providing these inter-regional and intercity services.

In summary, Bus Éireann is steadfastly committed to providing a safe and sustainable public transport service to all communities outside Dublin in partnership with the NTA and our other stakeholders. Most of these services could not operate without public subvention. In this context I welcome the increased subvention provided by the NTA in recent years and its commitment to provide further funding this year and going forward. We are aware of our responsibility, as Ireland's largest operator of public transport services, to ensure our operations are provided to the highest quality in terms of reliability, punctuality and value for money.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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As a number of members are indicating, I will call them in groups of two. I will call on Deputy Michael Collins and then Deputy Penrose.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for attending this morning and affording us this opportunity to raise some issues - some of which are positive and others which are not. I will start with the night time rural transport service the Minister announced recently. Initially, the sum of €200,000 was mentioned but that was never going to cover all rural areas. However, it was a start in the right direction.

Ms Graham stated:

As five Local Link groups did not make an initial application, the authority advised in mid-May that it would consider any further proposed services from these groups should a need or demand exist in the transport co-ordination unit, TCU, area. A revised closing date of Friday, 1 June was set [by the Minister].

Were any other groups entitled to apply for the extra money or was it just the five specific groups? I would appreciate it if Ms Graham could clarify that for me.

I will start with Local Link but I prefer to call it rural transport. I acknowledge the great work the rural transport service is giving to the people I represent in Cork South-West. It is a phenomenal service and it is managed very efficiently throughout the entire county of Cork, which is a massive undertaking. The service has worked very well. If it is not broken, why fix it? The service is funded at the moment through the NTA but local boards run the transport service. Is it intended that it will continue that way or are changes contemplated?

Is it possible for Bus Éireann and Local Link to interact more closely? It is not always clear that it happens. It is most important that a relationship would be built between the two services and that it could be further enhanced. In future could Local Link consider the provision of public transport services for people with disabilities aged over 18? If one has a severe disability and one is 17 years and 364 days old, one will get a transport service from the door to whatever institution one needs to access on a daily basis, but once one reaches the age of 18, one is given a free bus pass. It is possible that 50% of people with disabilities can use the bus pass but the other 50% are not and there is no service for them in west Cork. Such people are left stranded in their homes. Elderly parents are driving them for up to five hours a day when there are up to three buses in the area providing a service to young people up to the age of 18 yet those who are 18 will not be picked up by the bus. There is a breakdown in that regard which must be addressed because it is a very serious issue in the constituency I represent. I cannot speak for other constituencies.

School transport is a big issue in rural communities, in particular the catchment area. One shoe does not fit all. It can happen that a brother or a sister has gone to a school of the family's choice at an earlier stage but when the youngest sibling is starting school, CIÉ may state it will not take the child to the school in question but will take him or her to the nearest school. I could argue about this until the cows come home and I might not get anywhere with it but in some cases there is very little difference between both sides of the argument. When CIÉ measures distances, it operates on the basis of the nearest way one can get to the nearest school but that is not the route the bus takes. When measuring the longest route the distance is based on the bus route. CIÉ is taking every short cut it can to prove the point that the mileage is shorter. The basis for its calculations is totally incorrect and I know it is happening.

It should quite simply be the bus route from the house to the nearest school or the bus route from the house to the school that is furthest away. That is the fairest way. They cannot be taking big buses up boreens. That is not the way it works. Measurements can be very tight in some situations. Parents want their children to go to the nearest school rather than to the one that is furthest away. That issue needs to be looked at.

The cost of transport for young people, under-18s and students, is an issue that comes up on a regular basis. The cost of transport from my parish of Goleen to Cork is frightening. It turns young people off. They are looking for some alternative to the excellent service in Goleen, which I commend. It is at 7.30 a.m. every morning. It is great to have a service that goes to Cork but quite a lot of young people who would like to use the service cannot afford to do so. They are students. I am not sure of the exact charge but I think it is over €30. It is a lot of money for a young person who might want to commute a couple of times a week. It is not feasible for them.

The other issue is rail. I have been fighting for rail to west Cork. They are all laughing at me. They were able to bring it to west Cork in the 1850s but we cannot bring it in 2018. Obviously things are not getting any better but have moved back a good bit. The one thing we could be looking at is providing a bus service to link with the rail service in Cork. Bus Éireann needs to look at that more closely. As we are not going to get rail to west Cork, we need to have a bus service that leaves west Cork every morning and links to the train service. While we may not have rail in west Cork, at least we would have a linking transport service to rail. It is very important. We need to look at it in more detail, if possible.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for their excellent and very informative presentations. The provision of public transport services is extremely important in the context of the environment and the reduction of our carbon footprint. The more public transport services we have, the less dependence we have on cars to get to work or various services and appointments. Fitting that in is the important thing. I come from a very rural area and the rural transport programme is one of the most important programmes operated by the NTA. I urge that additional resources are provided to ensure that the expansion of a sustainable rural transport programme across rural towns and villages is achievable. I acknowledge we cannot have it in every corner and every place we would wish but it is extremely important. I and my colleagues support the provision of important financial resources by way of subvention to enable Bus Éireann to provide a maximum level of coverage across rural areas. It is an essential service. The big drawback is when people have a service and only a small number of people use it, it is withdrawn fairly sharply. I understand the economic situation and valuation that has to be done on that but it has a significant impact on people.

School transport is extremely important. It is an issue Ms Graham or Mr. Hernan might not want to talk about. Eligibility criteria have to be reviewed and re-evaluated in the context of current demand and the current situation. It is outmoded. Deputy Michael Collins is correct. When we talk about the nearest point, it seems to be the nearest point as the crow flies, which is an awfully silly method of evaluation. Unless a young lad or young girl gets wings, he or she cannot go the way the crow flies. I have had huge battles over the years on this issue. I am in a rural area and know it very well. There would be 0.2 km in the difference but they almost want people to go across the hedges, ditches and the walls to get there. People are used to going to a place but are deprived of the opportunity of getting to the school because the other school is in the catchment area. It has to be reviewed taking a common-sense approach. The Minister of State, Deputy Halligan, was probably looking at that but I hope the NTA is too. Bus Éireann will come back and say it will do whatever it is directed to do, which is grand and dandy, but does not butter any parsnips for people who have been deprived of the service as a result of rigorous bureaucratic evaluations of things. It has to be looked at.

The expansion of the local night services, which I welcome, is extremely important in combatting rural isolation. The significance of rural isolation has been referred to in recent reports. Very often, people can live close to other people but still feel isolated because they cannot get into the local village to meet people and talk about the various issues of the day. Have there been applications from the Longford and Westmeath areas as part of the extended application deadline? A very good service is being provided there by Noel McCormack and I expect that that service has reapplied.

Mullingar is a town of 24,000 people. I come from close to it. A town service is absolutely vital and I am glad to see it included as part of the expansion programme for the current year. I appreciate resources are always a constraining factor, I do not live in an ivory tower, but it is an important strategic town at the centre of the country. It should not have been put on the long finger for so long. We are delighted to see Athlone getting an enhanced service in the past 12 months or so but we want to see that service put in place for Mullingar. They are of similar size and as Mullingar is the administrative capital of Westmeath, it is important that it is put in place. I want to emphasise and promote that and ask that it would be done as quickly as possible. It is very important.

The bus service is excellent. Buses are becoming more comfortable and I note Bus Éireann intends to upgrade is fleet. That is great. I hope the NTA continues with that because it is important. A lot of people who use buses to go to work use their laptops to do work and they want Wi-Fi. We have to modernise to meet the demands of the consumer who is always right. As that is important, continuing that operation will be important.

In the past, trying to get bus shelters in place was one of the greatest curses. I am sure my colleagues share that opinion. I remember trying to get a bus shelter for the Downs outside Mullingar on the N4 for people travelling to Dublin. If the IDA and Enterprise Ireland paid more attention to Mullingar, we would not have so many people migrating on the bus services or trains. We are where we are, as they say. Hopefully the IDA will redouble its efforts in Mullingar industrial park and get industry in. Trying to get a bus shelter was an issue in areas such as Ballinalack and Rathowen where people would travel either west or east, depending on where they were going. The National Transport Authority will probably be able to deal with that now as there is more integration. A few years ago, people would win the lottery more quickly than they would get a bus shelter. Bus shelters are important because people like convenience and accommodation. The last thing one wants to do is step onto a bus to go to work or school having been drowned by heavy showers.

Wheelchair accessibility is important. I acknowledge what Mr. Hernan just said about 85% of the fleet. I am sure all the new fleet will accommodate wheelchairs. It is extremely important. We must be inclusive and ensure there is maximum availability for all people. I support Bus Éireann very strongly. It was an easy target for many years but it provided a lifeline to many rural areas. Unfortunately when the financial recession hit, it was impacted heavily and withdrew a number of services probably because the services were not paying. One cannot speak out of both sides of one's mouth. I do not mind paying extra tax to provide the necessary subvention for Bus Éireann and public transport services in order that they can provide services in rural areas and other places like that.

We cannot have our loaf and eat it. We must provide the money, and that comes from taxation or borrowing, although probably less from borrowing. If we have to do that, then that is what we have to do but we cannot be roaring and looking for services. There is a lot of duplication around. A person looks for additional services and then says that additional money will not be provided. Some want additional services and lower taxation. It does not work like that.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and look forward to their replies.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will call the witnesses to address the various questions posed.

Ms Anne Graham:

Ms Malone will address the LocalLink services and I will pick up the rest.

Ms Margaret Malone:

In relation to Deputy Collins's questions on the additional call for the evening services to the LocalLink groups, this was a restricted call to the five groups that did not submit initially. We subsequently received applications from all five and there is a total of 12 proposals or services being considered at the moment. We would hope to have a decision on that probably by the end of the month at this stage.

As to the management structure and the structure of the LocalLink groups operating to voluntary boards nationally, we are very happy with the arrangement that is currently in place and we work very closely with the LocalLink groups.

There is a national procurement process due to start shortly. The rural transport programme will be up for re-tendering and the committee may be aware that we are having a meeting with the managers and chairs of the boards of the LocalLink groups tomorrow in Portlaoise. Several members of the authority will discuss what that procurement programme might look like. It has not been finalised but we will be giving a high-level view of what the procurement programme will be like. The request for tenders will probably commence by the end of this summer.

The interaction of LocalLink services with Bus Éireann's services is a key consideration in relation to any proposal that comes in from a LocalLink group. We have a transport planning team which will closely assess that. We would also be very aware that a lot of the LocalLink team managers and support team have built up good relationships with their equivalents in Bus Éireann around the country. We rely on those working relationships to inform the development of a route, before it comes in to us as a proposal. We look at it in terms of how it scores from an integration point of view when it does come in to us.

Ms Anne Graham:

The issue of no services for people over 18 years of age was raised where they have had a service. We try to deal with that with the LocalLink managers on a case-by-case basis. If there is an individual who requires a service, he or she should contact the LocalLink manager and see if we are in a position to provide a service.

On west Cork having a bus service to link with the rail service, that is something that we can look at, and perhaps Bus Éireann might respond on that issue.

On Deputy Penrose's question, unfortunately the NTA has no role in school transport. We are specifically precluded statutorily from having any role in relation to school transport. On the expansion of the local night time services, we got proposals from Longford and Westmeath and we are assessing those services. Were they in the first batch?

Ms Margaret Malone:

They were in the first batch. We have approved a service for Longford and Westmeath.

Ms Anne Graham:

Perhaps Mr. Gaston might pick up on the Mullingar town service.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

On Mullingar we have developed a list of times that were noted in Ms Graham's statement. We are looking at Mullingar as being high up that list. The planning team has met with the local officials and some local representatives in Mullingar and some ideas are coming forward. We will move that one forward as fast as we can. We need to determine how to procure those services as well, and who is going to provide them. It is on our list and it is our desire to see towns like Mullingar - as we have done in Athlone and as we will be doing in Kilkenny shortly - getting a much-enhanced service. I completely agree with what the Deputy is saying about encouraging people to use public transport more. There are so many benefits both in terms of health and the environment. Mullingar is on our list and on our horizon.

Ms Anne Graham:

On the question of bus shelters, we do not underestimate the job there is in trying to put together and meet the deficit there right across the State. We are in a position now - we have a provider - to centrally roll out a programme, subject to funding being available, across the State. There are also local difficulties when one tries to put a shelter in place, particularly in towns, because they are not always acceptable in certain locations. We will do everything we can, however, by working with local authorities to improve the bus shelters and wheelchair accessibility at those stops.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There were some questions there for Mr. Hernan.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

On LocalLink, I accept that there has to be greater interaction between us, and perhaps greater co-ordination and planning, which will be facilitated through the auspices of the NTA, as it undertakes its review of the route network and the implementation of new services.

Accessibility is something we are all extremely conscious of. In respect of a person's age and when one reaches 18 years of age, it is a question of trying to get a co-ordinated response through bringing the various parties together on this. As the committee will understand, the Department of Education and Skills co-ordinates everybody under 18 years of age, in respect of providing transport services to the school or the location for people with accessibility and mobility issues. This responsibility goes to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport over the age of 18. I am not aware of any direct engagement with either Department on changing those rules. We are just implementing policy as it currently stands but I am happy to bring attention to it and raise it as an issue in any direct engagement we have with both Departments.

On schools, I do not wish to try to pass the buck on this, but I believe the committee would have a good idea of my answer on this. We operate the service on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills, and all policy issue relating to the provision of that service are set by that Department. The rules of eligibility and distance from the school, etc., as well as the family entitlement to go to the same school are ongoing issues for many rural communities. Those are issues that have been raised and about which we have had numerous discussions with the Department of Education and Skills. I understand is considering all of these aspects to try to streamline this and make it easier. Unfortunately, we can only implement the policies that we are given and we do apply them rigidly. If there are any disputes, there is an appeals process to cover that. We try to strictly apply the rules that are provided to us by the Department of Education and Skills.

On the question of fare structures, I might just hand over to my colleague, Mr. O'Mahony, particularly in the context of Goleen and west Cork.

Mr. Robert O'Mahony:

I will deal with the fare structure and linkages to rail services in Cork. At the moment, in conjunction with the authority, we are reviewing the west Cork network and there are a number of prime issues that we are looking at, one of which is connectivity to and from railway services. The concept we are developing at the moment includes operating all of west Cork services to both the bus station and the rail station in Cork. It will not just be in the morning peak, it will be throughout the day.

As part of our planning process, where there is a rail hub, wherever we are redesigning a timetable, the priority is to make sure that an early morning bus, as far as possible, meets the first train which will allow people to make a day trip to Dublin that is, within a 24 hour period. We are doing that in August in Ennis, where there will be early morning services from Kilkee and Doonbeg.

The fare structure we work with is an historic one that was developed in the 1940s and 1950s and was based on the distance a person travelled and based on the longer distance, the fare tapered off. It is not suitable to a modern transport environment and we are working with the authority to revise that. In December of last year, as part of the fares determination that the authority approved, we reduced the number of stages, which is the price that is paid for the distance travelled. This had a significant impact in certain parts of the country.

We rolled out Leap nationwide. One can get a 30% discount on one's single fare. We accept that the fares that currently exist in west Cork, while they reduced slightly last year, are still at a level that is prohibitive, particularly to students.

We are about to start discussions jointly with the authority in terms of the fares determination for 2019 and west Cork is high on the agenda in terms of coming up with a proposal to deliver better value fares for our customers in west Cork.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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On a service for people with disabilities, Ms Graham said we should talk to the local manager. There is no better person to talk to in Cork but the problem is too widespread for him to cope with. We could be talking about 150 or 200 individuals. I cannot put a figure on it but I know that a huge number of people are affected. We have had discussions on this and the HSE needs to come on board in this regard. It cannot sit on the fence because it is funding much of this transport service but it is all over the place, and that is the view of many people in west Cork.

Mr. O'Mahony said he is reviewing the possibility of linking the rail service from west Cork. Who is involved in that review?

Mr. Robert O'Mahony:

The review is being done by Bus Éireann central services, our local people on the ground in Cork and the authority.

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Recently, Dr. Eimear Cotter, director of environmental sustainability in the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, said Ireland is locked into a trend of rising carbon emissions. She was referring to the transport and freight sector. The freight line between the Port of Waterford and Ballina recently ceased. Currently we do not have a national freight policy, yet freight is an environmentally sustainable way to transport bulk products. Why did that link cease? At a time the United Kingdom and other European partners are developing the rail freight networks, why are we closing them? Further, if that line is currently closed to freight, is there any plan to open a rail service, for instance, between Rosslare and Waterford, and Ballina? That would be a great link. The line between Rosslare and Waterford has been closed. We are going in the wrong direction because using the railway system is one way of mitigating congestion in areas but we are not doing that. We are closing the services. What is the witnesses' reaction to that?

With regard to low emission vehicles and bus lines, last year I visited Nijmegen in Holland where most of the public buses are zero-emission. What is Bus Éireann doing with regard to procuring diesel vehicles? Is there a policy to move away from diesel to zero emission buses? That is not new age talk. The infrastructure is in place in other countries, and they are using it. What is our policy on that and are we moving in that direction? What are Bus Éireann's plans to phase out older diesel buses and move towards using a more environmentally fleet?

Congestion has been discussed. The sooner we operate an efficient and effective public transport system, the better for the country for many reasons. I refer finally to a bugbear of mine. I live in Tramore, County Waterford, and my daughter attends NUI Galway. Every time she takes the bus from Galway to Limerick to connect to another bus to Waterford, the bus meets congestion in Limerick and she misses the onward bus to Waterford. There is connectivity according to the timetable but that is not the reality. I am hearing about this from other people. In terms of efficiency, my daughter is losing time but she is only one of many. What is Bus Éireann doing to adapt its timetables to offset congestion at peak hours in different cities?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses. It is great to get an opportunity to discuss issues with them. Coming from a rural area in Galway, we have issues with school transport, which is a major bugbear. One issue that comes up frequently is that when a new school is built, it distorts all the school transport rules and families end up being split as a result of that. That is not helping the students in terms of their education. We need to take a common-sense approach to that issue. I hope that, working together with the Department of Education and Skills, we can come up with sensible answers to address the problem.

Senator O'Sullivan mentioned rail freight. I would also like to know what is happening with the Ballina to Waterford line.

The other issue the Senator raised was the type of buses being used by Bus Éireann. It will add 135 new buses. Are they diesel buses? If not, what type of buses are they? Is Bus Éireann moving towards the new thinking in that area, which we have not implemented here yet, which is to do with carbon saving and more efficient buses in terms of maintenance?

On the Local Link service, I am glad to see that the other five Local Link groups have put in their submissions. One of the reasons I have a concern about rural transport links is that they are not being properly resourced. They are taking on more areas. I am concerned that Bus Éireann is now talking about the new procurement programme, which will place a huge workload on the Local Link manager. In many cases, they are managing the service themselves because they have no staff. We can cod ourselves all day about everything we are doing but we have to provide the Local Link groups with the proper resources. I recall that on the previous occasion the witnesses were before the committee they mentioned that the NTA uses a system whereby buses co-ordinate with rail services or whatever. That software is not available to Local Link operators but it should be to help them in terms of the planning. I was told that would be looked at but we need to put it in place.

On rural transport, Bus Éireann has Dublin to Galway bus link or local bus links but the problem is that the pick-up points are so far apart, people use their cars to drive to the bus stop but when they get there, they keep going. They do not bother using the bus. There seems to be a conservative approach to setting up new bus stops quickly. I am aware that private operators have also had the problem of trying to get additional bus stops or additional routes licensed. However, the approach to the application of that is fragmented in that they have to go to the local authority and here, there and everywhere. We need to tighten that up because we want to take people off the roads, out of their cars and on to public transport.

I have a question about Galway city and the provision of commuter rail services into the city from towns such as Tuam and Athenry.

Galway city is congested. Despite what has been done to try to resolve this, apart from the outer bypass, buses still cannot drive over the bridge. Buses do not go that route, which is mind-boggling. They cannot go that route for whatever reason and this has been the case for years. They cannot go from, say, Newcastle across the bridge to the Headford Road and then on to Parkmore. They must go through the city. The other thing that is wrong, and which we need to put right collectively, is that we talk about providing park-and-ride facilities, but the big obstacle to local authorities doing so is that we do not have the bus lane network to make the buses run more efficiently within the city. The net result is that people from Loughrea, Gort and Tuam drive into the city, clogging up the place to go to work and spending perhaps three or four hours in their cars every day, when there is a solution. The problem is that no one is taking this by the scruff of the neck. The NTA needs to do this, bring all the agencies together and say we have a problem, this is the solution, and how are we going to do it?

One fine example of this is the bus lane into Claregalway village. It has been in place for seven or eight years. the former Minister, Mr. Noel Dempsey opened it a number of years ago, and that is neither today nor yesterday. We have been talking since then about developing a bus lane from Claregalway right into the city at Two Mile Ditch. This has not happened and still does not seem to be happening, although it is on everyone's agenda.

Mr. Hernan referred to a "town hub and spoke". What does that mean? For instance, Tuam a railway station is on a 13-acre site. It could be a fine park-and-ride facility if a commuter rail link or bus services between Tuam and Galway were opened. Could that be a "town hub and spoke"?

Ms Anne Graham:

! refer to Senator Grace O'Sullivan's questions about rail freight. Unfortunately, we do not have a role in rail freight policy. Our focus is primarily on public transport services and the use of the rail infrastructure for that. Irish Rail and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport will answer the Senator's questions in that area.

Regarding use of the existing rail infrastructure, including the closed rail infrastructure - and this would apply across the State - it is expensive to maintain and keep open. People need to use them to offset the costs associated with not only running the passenger service, but also keeping the infrastructure safe and appropriate for use. A number of years ago, the number of people using the Rosslare-Waterford rail line was not sufficient to keep it open for rail passenger services, so it was closed at that time. We identified two years ago in our rail review some other rail corridors had low usage but operated at a high cost but there are no proposals at this stage to close any of them. We believe that in some cases it is more efficient and effective to provide a bus service rather than a rail service. The former is more flexible and can provide a frequent service for a much lower cost than for rail services.

We are moving towards low-emission fleet purchases in partnership with Bus Éireann. It has been set out in the national development plan that no diesel-only buses can be purchased after July 2019, so we will be required then to move in that direction, but we were doing so. The issue we had in recent years was that our funding was constrained. To reduce the age of the fleet and to reduce other emissions, we decided to purchase as many diesel vehicles as we could with our available funding, rather than invest in a lower-emission fleet, for which a premium must be paid. The cost for a lower-emission diesel fleet or diesel hybrid fleet is about 25% more per vehicle. One can pay an even higher premium for a fully electric or similar type of fleet. This is something to take into consideration as we move towards reductions in our carbon emissions. In moving towards a fully electric fleet, infrastructure must be put in place as well for charging of the vehicles. We have commenced this process. We hope to commence procurement of a low-emission diesel hybrid fleet this year. Both Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann are proposing to trial a number of buses, and Mr. Hernan will probably refer to this. We are moving towards a lower-emission fleet as quickly as we can and as quickly as our funding allows us.

I refer to Deputy Canney's questions. Rail fleet is a matter for the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and Irish Rail. We are moving towards a low-emission fleet.

We believe the Local Link offices are properly resourced. Procurement is a requirement of our procurement laws and directives. It is just the Local Link management service that is procured. We will try to assist where we can to ensure the workload related to this is minimised as much as possible.

We have worked with Galway City Council and Galway County Council to put together a Galway transport strategy, which now needs to be implemented. Funding is set aside in the national development plan for Galway BusConnects. As soon as we have moved forward with BusConnects in Dublin, our next priority will be BusConnects in Galway and to commence that implementation with the local authorities on the ground. This will include looking at improving both bus services and park-and-ride and seeing whether we can put in rail commuter services.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

Regarding Senator O'Sullivan's comments on carbon emissions, I will elaborate on what Ms Anne Graham has emphasised. Since 2015, all buses purchased by Bus Éireann, in conjunction with the NTA, have been compliant with Euro 6 standards. Euro 6 standard emissions are 98% less than the emissions of standard diesel buses that existed even ten or 15 years ago, and, therefore, emissions have declined significantly. The emissions of a Euro 6 bus now is comparable to the emissions of a compressed natural gas bus, which is a significant reduction. As Ms Graham said, we are working with the NTA on other types of buses - electric, hybrid and compressed natural gas, CNG - which is very much the focus of the Department now. We are beginning to review these alternative bus types. The last 135 buses to which I referred will still be Euro 6 buses, but thereafter we will look at acquiring other ones. To be clear, there has been a significant reduction in emissions in recent years.

Regarding connectivity, particularly in the context of congestion and timetables, congestion has had a significant impact on our ability to align ourselves with the timetables and connectivity with other services. This is something we face daily, to such an extent that we have put a large team together internally to work on this. This year, more than 80% of all our routes will have new timetables implemented to very much take cognisance of connectivity not just with our own bus services, but also with train services.

In response to Deputy Canney, the issues surrounding school rules are noted.

It is something with which we continue to deal with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. As a bus operator, I very much promote the concept of BusConnects, possibly as a greater and more flexible option than rail. We can provide better value for money than a rail option, and probably a speedier way to market as well, in terms of implementing a modal shift from car to bus, at least. I understand, however, that in order to move significant volumes of people, rail is the way to go. There is significant investment going into Galway, Limerick and Cork, in particular, in terms of additional services. In those three cities, we have seen double-digit growth over the past two years in passenger numbers.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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What will be implemented in Galway city?

Ms Anne Graham:

We developed a transport strategy with Galway City Council and Galway County Council. It is now part of their development plan. It sets out what is required to improve bus and rail services throughout the Galway city in order to reduce congestion and provide for greater movement around the city. That is in place. What we need to do now is move into implementation stage.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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When will the implementation stage commence? When will we see the effects of it?

Ms Anne Graham:

The funding needs to be made available. It has been identified in the national development plan, not in 2019 but in the later stages of the plan. What we need to do is work with the local authorities to develop those projects and have them ready to go when the funding is available.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It was said that includes enhancing rail links into the city. What is meant by that?

Ms Anne Graham:

More services on existing rail infrastructure. At the moment, no new infrastructure is proposed.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their most informative presentations. I have questions for the NTA and Bus Éireann. We are all very concerned about our environment, and my colleagues alluded to that this morning. I come from the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan. Are there any realistic or serious plans for a rail line from Dublin to Navan, continuing on to Cavan, where there was a line previously. Some of it is used for the mines in Navan. If we are serious about our environment, city congestion and making the cities realistic working places, which, as it transpires, they continue to be for people living in more rural parts, I would like to know Ms Graham's views on that and whether there is any sense of priority about a rail development like that which would bring commuters from Cavan and Monaghan into the city. Unfortunately, we depend very much on our public transport. Fortunately, we have a good bus service but we have no rail line. I would like to hear Ms Graham's comments on that.

I do not see the environment in Cavan-Monaghan changing any time soon - the number of visits by the IDA to Cavan and Monaghan is a single-digit figure - in terms of any real investment or employment. Unfortunately, we are back to a day when, like ten years ago, predominant employment for builders and skilled workers is in the city. Any day travelling on the M3, one will find car loads of people stuck in traffic on that corridor. That is why a rail line should be a realistic priority and something we think seriously about to service people in that area.

On a positive note, the feedback I get from constituents is that the local link is a positive development. We have to look beyond 11 p.m. at weekends, if we are serious about rural isolation, servicing and providing real transport for people living in rural areas like Cavan and Monaghan. That needs to be expanded upon. While there have been initiatives announced recently, I wonder if there are plans for expansion in Cavan-Monaghan. People come into my clinics from small villages, like Redhills, which are linked into the main towns of Cavan. It also provides a great service for students attending Cavan Institute. I would like to hear Ms Graham's comments on that. What is happening is positive and we need more of it.

On Bus Éireann, I have spoken to Mr. Hernan before about its adjustments, which he has called "enhanced services" for the M3 corridor. I would like Mr. Hernan to reflect on those services and the changes that have been made. What is the feedback on them? Are they as effective as they were expected to be? I would particularly like Mr. Hernan to comment on the change of bus drop-off points at the Mater hospital because for me and for my constituents it was a real bone of contention and a real disappointment when those changes were made, particularly for the elderly and people who are ill, attending the Mater hospital. That was a very important stop to them. I know changes were made to that. Could Mr. Hernan reflect on that for us?

I do not want to repeat what has been said already but I concur with much of what was said about school transport. While I understand that Bus Éireann is the provider and has to go by the policies laid out by the Department of Education and Skills, I concur with what was said. I came across a family of four siblings, three of whom were going to Virginia college. The only school the youngest child could get to was St. Clare's in Ballyjamesduff. There were three children in one family going to one school, and the last child was sent to another. Could Mr. Hernan comment on whether there was a phasing-out period? That would have been a logical thing to do, and perhaps it was done. I am sure it is the same for my colleagues but the most frequent and probably the most frustrating representation made in my clinic is by parents coming in about school transport and Bus Éireann. I spoke with my staff before I came in here. They said last year they were getting responses much more quickly than this year. Could Mr. Hernan tell us to whom we can go to deal with representations about school bus transport?

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I am going to start on school transport because I have been dealing with it for a long time. We have the case of Kate, who has a valid medical card, but her parents were advised that Rebecca is eligible to get a school bus ticket but she cannot be issued with a ticket as there are no seats available on the bus. Kate's siblings currently travel on that bus route. Whose responsibility is it to provide a bus big enough to take all the eligible students? Could Mr. Hernan answer that question, specifically? Who decides on when the closing date is for applications for school transport? Students who find that they have to repeat their leaving certificate are then considered to be late applications and are put into another category. Who is responsible?

On school transport, I suggest this committee invite the Department of Education and Skills, which is responsible, and Bus Éireann to come in and comprehensively answer questions. Children are being deprived of seats on the bus. I take the point that was raised around Government policy. I have followed the policies right through from Fianna Fáil's Mary Coughlan, who did the review in 2008 or 2009. The buck must stop somewhere because children are entitled to a seat on the school bus, particularly in rural areas. There are all kinds of precarious situations where one could end up with child protection issues, children arriving late for school and all that. It has a real impact on children's education because there is not a proper school bus service. I would like that to be addressed separately. The biggest problem is the lack of flexibility, or the rigidity, around transport.

Changing anything is like trying to move the Titanic. Sometimes trains arrive in Westport five minutes after the bus for Louisburgh has departed. It would seem logical to change the departure time once a lack of connectivity has been identified. It is impossible to get routes changed and find out who is responsible. The National Transport Authority, NTA, is failing abysmally on the key objectives regarding route development and expansion.

One of the key objectives stated is to "ensure that rural transport services are comprehensively linked to and integrated with public transport services provided by other entities including Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann and other private operators". That is not happening. Does the NTA map services in all counties and is there a proper map of all the routes? How often are these maps updated? What community consultation takes place on these routes? In my view, there is a lack of proper community consultation. Was Mayo among the counties that made applications for LocalLink later?

On communication and timetables, trying to have a timetable provided at a bus stop is like trying to send somebody to the moon. Could the provision of timetables and other forms of communication be facilitated in order that people can find out what routes are available? It is no good asking people to check a website because most of those who use rural transport services do not have access to broadband services or other technology. A means of communicating with people must be found to enable them to find out when routes are running.

While I am glad bus shelters are back on the agenda, we were told they are dependent on funding. Is funding available for bus shelters and, if so, will the witnesses outline the process for applying for bus shelters and the criteria and timescale involved?

Has any work been done on transport that is conducive to meeting the needs of children and adults with autism or non-physical disabilities? Has research been done on this issue and, if not, will a study be done in respect of noise and other factors that cause distress for people with disabilities, specifically autism? Will the witnesses also comment on moves to ban those with free travel cards from using transport services during peak times? Such a ban, which is being mooted, would be a backward step for people trying to access hospitals, etc., and I would certainly resist it.

The document also states that the level of engagement with the Health Service Executive differs between areas. Will the witnesses comment on that issue in the context of the HSE's obligation and responsibility to engage with the NTA and Bus Éireann? A lack of access to transport has social and economic consequences. Many people cannot turn up for appointments because they do not have access to transport. People in parts of Mayo and Galway who have to travel three hours each way for an appointment - a six-hour round trip - need transport. The survival of rural Ireland depends on the NTA and Bus Éireann. I plead with both organisations to examine this issue. While certain things work well, major changes are needed and many of these require nothing more than greater flexibility and a different approach, as opposed to additional resources.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will bring in Deputy Niamh Smyth briefly.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question for Mr. Hernan. How many buses are wheelchair accessible on the M3 corridor where changes have been made?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I ask Ms Graham and Mr. Hernan to respond to some of the questions.

Ms Anne Graham:

There are no proposals at this time for a rail line to Cavan and the line is not included in the current development plan. There is no proposal for the extension of the rail line to Navan in our 20-year strategy. When we were drawing up the strategy in the lead-up to 2016, we did not believe that the demand was strong enough to provide a rail extension to Navan. We did, however, undertake to review demand during the six-year review of the strategy to identify if there was a need for a rail service to Navan. That has been restated in the national development plan. There is no proposal at this stage for an extension of the line to Cavan.

Turning to the questions from Senator Conway-Walsh, I will be disappointed if it is the case that there is no connection between the rail link from Westport to Louisburgh. We will look at that issue and any other examples of lack of connectivity we receive. We rely on local people to give us information on these matter to enable us to work on making improvements with our partners in Irish Rail and Bus Éireann. A number of years ago, we produced a comprehensive plan for improvements to bus and rail services in Mayo and did a consultation on it. Mayo was the first county for which we produced a plan for services. We did a consultation on those changes. That was two or three years ago and we will give the Senator a copy of the document. Perhaps Mr. Hernan will outline the type of communications done in the lead-up to service changes.

On bus shelters and information at bus stops, we know major improvements are needed in this area and we want to roll out a comprehensive programme. More funding is becoming available now, although not to the levels we would like either this year or next. In future years, we want to rapidly expand the provision of bus shelters and, with our partners in Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus, improve the information and timetables at bus stops. We have not done any specific research in respect of noise-----

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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On the issue of bus shelters, what is the process for applying for a bus shelter? To whom can communities apply and what is the timeline?

Ms Anne Graham:

They can apply directly to the NTA. In light of funding constraints, we had to put a priority on the demand for particular services. This means we rank the higher demand bus stops highest for getting a bus shelter. I can write to the Senator with the details on how we prioritise funding.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Has funding been increased this year?

Ms Anne Graham:

No.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Was it increased last year?

Ms Anne Graham:

No.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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In that case, why are we talking about a greater possibility of securing bus shelters?

Ms Anne Graham:

There will be more funding because we have sight of our capital funding for the next four years. From this funding, we should be able to provide more funding for bus shelters. Our funding has been constrained in recent years and we have only been able to provide funding for a limited number of bus shelters each year. I will write to Senator Conway-Walsh with more details on this issue, including on the process and points of contact.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I ask Ms Graham to send a note to the committee on that.

Ms Anne Graham:

Yes, that is no problem. We have not done any specific research on transport services for people with autism. We can contact the National Disability Authority, NDA, and seek its advice on the matter. We engage with the NDA on improving all of our services for people with all levels of disabilities. We will take up the issue with the National Disability Authority. I will ask Mr. Gaston to respond to the questions on the free travel pass.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

Members will have seen this morning in the newspapers a statement on a possible movement to off-peak hours. It is not in our immediate plans but we need to be aware that free travel funding has not increased very much, either to the CIE group of companies or the other operators. People are travelling during the peak hours, during which services are increasingly congested and reaching capacity in some places. Moving to off-peak would be one option to help to address the issue of peak travel and capacity issues. As I said, it is not something we are currently planning but it is a measure that might have to be taken depending on where we go in terms of funding and providing additional capacity. There is no doubt that this will be an ongoing problem because the number of people in the over-66 age bracket will increase quite dramatically over the next ten to 15 years. It is something that needs to be addressed. We welcome the fact that the discussion has at least been opened by the media commentary this morning.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I do not welcome that answer because it further marginalises people who are dependent on transport, particularly for a hospital appointment. I asked Mr. Gaston to proceed to the other questions.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

If it were to be brought in, it would be a matter for the Government, I suspect, but we would certainly have to be very sensitive and careful not to marginalise people. I absolutely take that point.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hernan was asked a number of questions, from Deputy Smyth in particular.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

In terms of the new timetable and services through Cavan-Monaghan, we recently increased the frequency on route 30. There will be increased frequency on route 32 also. We have also increased the frequency on the 109X route. Therefore, there has been a significant increase in capacity. There are no plans to add direct services from, say, Monaghan town to Dublin but services are flowing from the Donegal-Letterkenny area through Cavan and Monaghan with a significant uplift in frequencies. I hope this will deal with many of the capacity issues in this area because passenger numbers are growing.

With regard to the bus stop at the Mater Hospital, we have received a large amount of feedback. We also received feedback on the challenge being created for those visiting or attending the hospital. We are considering increasing the number of services that will stop at the Mater Hospital. I cannot commit to reverting to all the routes and frequencies that serviced the Mater in the past but we are trying to strike a balance between using bus lanes to reduce the journey times and trying to achieve connectivity with key locations, such as the hospital. That is under review. I expect some changes to be made in the current year.

The Deputy asked many questions about schools. An initiative last year that seemed to work well was the introduction of a dedicated line for all public representatives to contact us with any queries about schools. That was communicated a number of times last year. We are doing that again this year. I am not too sure whether it has occurred yet. I will confirm that the list of mobile numbers for all our regional managers will be provided. It was successful last year and seems to have reduced the number of queries. We were able to speed up the response times as a result.

We have also increased resources for telephone communication with parents. With the approval of the Department, we are expanding the resource applied to the telephone lines between now and September of this year. I would be disappointed if we did not see a stepped improvement on last year, which saw a significant improvement on the previous years. If there is any issue with Members not receiving information on the direct lines to our regional managers, they should please let me know. I know, however, that we sent the numbers to Members' Oireachtas email addresses and local constituency email addresses last year.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The responses to our representations are actually getting slower.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

I will certainly follow that up. I will take any specific details the Deputy has directly after the meeting.

Deputy Smyth and perhaps Senator Conway-Walsh mentioned larger buses and the number of pupils. One of the main challenges we have as the operator - I know the Department of Education and Skills is challenged on this - concerns the difference between eligible pupils, who are absolutely entitled to space on a bus, and concession students. It is very possible that there could be three siblings who are concession students and if there is no extra space for the fourth, who is deemed to be a concession student or technically ineligible to school transport, it is highly unlikely that the Department will approve the provision of a larger bus. If there are more eligible students who require a larger bus, it will be provided. If, however, the students are concession students, I do not foresee at this moment in time the approval of larger buses by the Department.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I am not talking about concession students but eligible students. Whose responsibility is it to say there is a larger bus available and that it may be used?

Mr. Ray Hernan:

We have to get sanction from the Department but the Department will sanction larger buses only if all the seats are provided to eligible students.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I am referring to eligible students in circumstances where the application is late because a student will not know whether he or she will repeat the leaving certificate.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

We would have to take that up with the Department and get approval for that.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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In that case, it is Bus Éireann's responsibility to take it up with the Department and the Department's responsibility to sanction it.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

Yes. First and foremost, it is our responsibility as the operator to be aware of what is occurring because we administer the scheme on the Department's behalf. If there is a requirement, we inform the Department. If the Deputy is saying all the students are eligible, there is no reason a larger bus would not be sanctioned.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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It is not resolved but I hope that after our discussion today, it will be.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

I will certainly follow that up. If the Deputy informs me of the specific circumstances, I will take them on board.

We implement the rules. Sticking rigidly to the rules that apply eliminates the likely challenges and prevents an inconsistent approach across the whole country. This is why we have been very determined to maintain the departmental rules and the consistency of approach, no matter what part of the country the rules are applied. I do not see that changing.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Was there a phasing-in period? I refer to circumstances where three children in one family are going to a school and a fourth is told he or she cannot get a seat on the bus to the same school and must go to a different school. Was there a phasing-in or phasing-out period?

Mr. Ray Hernan:

There was a phasing-in period. I cannot give the Deputy the specifics on whether all the rules were phased in. Certainly, however, there were new rules implemented in 2012. A six-year timeline was allowed for phased implementation to avoid the type of issue the Deputy raises. The six years should cover the timescale in post-primary school. Again, if the Deputy has a specific example, I will be very happy to take it on board.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Who sets the application times? I refer to the April and July times. Is it the Department or Bus Éireann?

Mr. Ray Hernan:

We set the timetable of deadlines against the background of what we are required to do. We have to put in place, for every September, 6,500 services per day. Trying to determine how many students are applying for each route and whether we have the right types of buses available is a massive logistical nightmare.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Hernan saying people who repeat the leaving certificate examination or move into an area after the date in April and give details by July do not count?

Mr. Ray Hernan:

Again, it all depends on whether the student is eligible or a concession student.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Bus Éireann is ruling students ineligible because, according to the company, to be eligible school transport applications must be made on the Bus Éireann website prior to 28 April and medical card details must be received by 28 July. Bus Éireann, because of its deadlines, is making the students ineligible even though they are eligible in terms of medical cards. I am sorry but it is really important for all of us to tease out these matters.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has made her point.

Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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I need an answer.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We will get an answer. Deputy Niamh Smyth has another question for Ms Graham.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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When drawing up the NTA's 20 year strategy, it was considered there was no demand for a rail line to Cavan and Navan. When is the six-year review of this due? How is the research conducted in deciding there is no need for a rail line to Cavan?

Ms Anne Graham:

Our strategy is for the greater Dublin area. It was only Navan that was considered in this strategy. The strategy was agreed in 2016, meaning it will be 2023 when we will start the review.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Will it include Cavan?

Ms Anne Graham:

No.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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A rail link would be sensible for the environment as well as for changes in the economy. There will not be an east-west link, according to the Government, and there will not be a motorway to Cavan town. Accordingly, a rail line becomes critical and crucial if we are going to provide any sort of transport for young people who will have to work ultimately in Dublin.

Ms Anne Graham:

In terms of rail transport infrastructure, the only role the NTA plays is in the greater Dublin area. We only manage and plan for the rail infrastructure in the greater Dublin area. We do not have the statutory powers to look at rail infrastructure beyond the greater Dublin area. That would be for the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to look at.

For the Navan line, we will use general census information and information from POWSCAR, place of work, school or college - census of anonymised records, which shows how people are travelling to work and education. We use those data and projections on those data to plan for future infrastructure.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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When the six-year review comes up, will Cavan and Monaghan be included?

Ms Anne Graham:

No, because the transport strategy for the greater Dublin area does not include the Cavan area.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Does the responsibility lie with the Department solely to make that decision?

Ms Anne Graham:

Yes.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

On the 28 April deadline, one of our challenges is whether we ever have a hard and fast deadline. We tend to be as flexible as possible in terms of taking on board any people who come in subsequent to the deadline. If the Senator has received correspondence to say that this individual is not eligible, I will certainly look into it. I cannot specifically say I know all the rules around the scheme but I will take it up on the Senator's behalf.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The witnesses may write down some of the things I will be asking because I would like direct answers.

Why does Bus Éireann not outline on its tender documents, for any size bus on any route, that each year it will be subject to the number of people who will be travelling on it? Why has Bus Éireann not got a system that in May or June, the numbers of people who are eligible or discretionary are applied for and that it knows its figures by July to allow it put on whatever bus is suitable for each route? This was discussed with Mr. Martin Nolan of Bus Éireann when he was before a committee.

In a private business, that is how one makes money instead of leaving people standing on the side of the road or a youngster coming on after three more of them going on a bus. It is bread and butter in any business as to how a person does tender. With tender documents, a person must give him or herself the flexibility to have all the differently sized buses priced in on that route and that each year it is subject to A, B, C, depending on the number of people travelling and it is a three-year contract. However, it must also be written down - meaning there is no comeback for the subcontractor - that any child who may not have a medical card but wants to go to school is facilitated. Funnily enough, the buses are passing by and they are giving Bus Éireann but they do not want to take it. I am baffled at Bus Éireann's system. Whoever is in charge needs to have a damn good look at how it does its tender documents.

Bus Éireann is hiring a significant number of subcontractors on its routes with no meters on some of the buses. Why is that? Is it because it has no workers to drive its buses?

The size of the buses on different routes varies. On some routes, Bus Éireann uses a 53 seater when a 19 seater would do. It needs smaller buses for certain routes. I cannot understand why it is not buying them for efficiency. The whole country is on about carbon but there are large buses going up and down the roads with only a few people in them. I am a contractor. I do not send the largest tractor in the world to work the smallest field. I adjust accordingly. As is required, I can move it up and down. Bus Éireann has statistics on the numbers travelling on different routes, day in, day out.

I heard the views of two people this morning who are in favour of electric cars. Going on what I heard from them, I would not like an electric bus. People should know that the bus procurement budget has to be increased by 25% if we opt for electric. From what I have heard about hybrid diesel, particularly in the heavy vehicle sector, the diesel part will be used most of the time. There is no point in codding ourselves. For between €17,000 and €20,000, a heavy vehicle can be converted to gas. Why has it not been examined? Gas is probably the only way forward for the next 12 years until they perfect the hybrid diesel system. How many straight diesel buses has the company bought in the past two years?

School buses work a few hours day and are parked up for the rest. Why is there not joined-up thinking between the NTA and Bus Éireann for using them for local services such as Local Link?

Ms Graham earlier spoke about the numbers using bus shelters. Essentially, if three people get on a bus in Ballinlough, County Roscommon, and 23 get on at Mullingar, due to financial constraints, the passengers in Ballinlough will be down the ladder when it comes to getting a bus shelter. I want a straight answer to that. If that is the way, there are parts of rural Ireland which will never see a bus shelter. We are as well to be straight with them without announcements and people thinking they will get a bus shelter.

Is it correct that the NTA has nothing to do with the western rail corridor or any train service outside of the greater Dublin area? I have travelled on the DART several times.

I understand the State has a lot of land extending out to Dublin Airport and I understand from talking to people in Irish Rail that there could be a spur from the DART to Dublin Airport. We keep going down this road of tunnelling, which would cost a massive amount of money. I worked on tunnelling, so I understand a bit about it. We talk about 15 years to 20 years time. The figures I am hearing from people in the rail sector is that €200 million to €250 million could solve it in the context of the DART. Why is that not being considered?

Could the witnesses elaborate on why per capitapeople in rural parts of Ireland have less money spent on them compared to those in the city of Dublin in the context of public transport? Am I correct in saying that the envisaged RuralLink service will pick people up at 8 p.m. and bring them home at 11 p.m.? If one was in any other part of the country, one could get a bus at 9 p.m., or at 10 p.m. if one was in the city. One might go to the pub at 11 p.m. and go home at 12 p.m. Is one going to be restricted to a certain length of time?

I would like the witnesses to comment on the anti-social behaviour we are hearing about at the moment and on what they intend to do in terms of protecting buses and the rail network.

The witnesses spoke about future plans involving Galway County and City Councils. There was talk in the national planning framework of a Luas-type system in Galway. What will happen in Galway over the next ten years? At the moment, Galway is chaotic. Will there be a Luas-type system in Galway in the next ten years because as far as I can see, there will not be? Galway needs bus corridors, of which we are all well aware. What concrete actions are being taken in Galway?

To go back to the western rail corridor, to Galway, Tuam, Athenry and Claremorris and to the line that is closed, Ms Graham said it had nothing to do with her. She said to Deputy Kenny that she did not envisage any new rail lines being opened under this plan, which is a ten year plan. Will a Minister have to make a decision to do this?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Ó Cuív. I will also bring in Deputy Burke. Ms Graham has to attend another Oireachtas committee today, so her time is limited. Members should bear that in mind.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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As this is a rural committee, I will focus on the requirements of rural people and I would like to do so under a number of headings. What we know is that many more rural people, as evidenced from the travel to work surveys, travel to cities to work than heretofore, and they are travelling further. I will take Galway as an example, although from the very useful map, one can extrapolate the same thing for Limerick, Waterford, Cork and elsewhere. The commuter routes out of Galway are as follows: Galway to Carraroe; Galway to Clifden; Galway to Headford, Cong, Shrule, Ballinrobe and beyond; Galway to Tuam; Galway to Roscommon; Galway to Loughrea and Ballinasloe; and Galway to Gort and Ennis. What absolutely blows my mind is the lack of definition of what a commuter service is. There does not seem to be any focus on the fact that a large number of people want to come into the centre in the morning and to get out as fast as they can in the evening. However, they do not all start and finish at the same time.

I am going to define what a commuter service should be and what should be put in place along these routes. At an absolute minimum, it should be within the hours of 7.30 a.m. to 9 a.m. and should be every half an hour. For the rest of the day, it should be at hourly intervals. With the railway line from Ballybrophy to Limerick, one would be better off walking. There is one service in the day, one each way. Who would want to take a service like that? Miss one and wait until tomorrow. With a commuter service, one misses one and gets the next. Is there a commitment to that kind of frequency on the main commuter lines in and out of all the major towns and cities with third level institutions and hospitals because otherwise I cannot see how one will get the passengers? It becomes a fáinne fí, a vicious circle. If one does not provide the service, one will not get the passengers.

I accept the witnesses do not have responsibility for rail outside Dublin. However, it is interesting to look at the passenger numbers and the population of a town like Athenry. Proportionate to the size of the town, there is a huge number of people using the rail service from Athenry to Galway. Why is this? It is because by accident, between the Limerick, Athlone and Dublin trains, one has a reasonable service frequency.

I would like the view of the witnesses on what is a commuter service. Is it one bus in the morning and one bus in the evening, with an hour and a half frequency after that? Am I right that to really attract commuters, one needs at least half an hour frequencies during commuter times and maybe hourly at other times?

I am totally supportive of the RuralLink idea, that is, that one runs buses on the main routes and one gets the RuralLink buses to pick up people in the villages and smaller places.

The next issue is my hobbyhorse. We, in rural Ireland, are fed up paying a subsidy in fares because people do not get fair play. There is a fear of giving them fair play. I am going to stay on this issue until we get justice. The rate per kilometre on rural services, non-Expressway, is twice that of the urban services. That is a simple fact. It is archaic and there is a fear of changing it because a slight rebalancing might be required. It does not matter how much rural people are over-charged as long as it is not rebalanced in respect of people who happen to live in big cities. We are not taking this anymore and we are going to keep highlighting it until we get justice.

That leads to the question my colleague, Deputy Fitzmaurice, alluded to. Bus Éireann serves in excess of one million people in the most densely populated part of the country and it gets €60 million of a subsidy. Bus Éireann and RuralLink between them get less than €50 million and they serve up to 4 million people. Maybe Mr. Hernan can confirm this, because he has access to the figures and knows the facts, but no State subsidy goes to Expressway, so we can take it out of the cake, and if I break it down the figure further, my understanding is that a fair bit of that €50 million goes to urban services in Cork, Waterford and Galway. In fact, when I take the rural services, I find that the subsidy per head of population is absolutely minuscule.

Some 1.1 million people live in the county of Dublin. There are 800,000 people living in Connacht-Ulster. That includes Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan and the province of Connaught. One would expect that Connacht-Ulster would get eight elevenths of the transport subsidy that Dublin receives. One would think it would be the other way around in a city where there are thousands of people using the services and that the subsidy would be hugely skewed towards the rural areas.

We find, however, that it is the other way and that there is total inertia, bad services and unfair charges. We do not need to wonder why people do not use the buses. Country people are very pragmatic but I wish for services to be provided to meet our needs.

Other people may have difficulty getting responses to representations on school bus services but the service I get in that regard is first class. The co-operation and facilitation of the Bus Éireann school bus service is fantastic and I compliment it in that regard. I accept that it cannot go outside the rules. Is Bus Éireann going to move into the 21st century and focus services on meeting people's needs?

It is impossible for young people attending university to get accommodation in places such as Galway. To qualify for a non-adjacent grant, one must live 45 km or more from the college. The witnesses can see on their map that Carraroe is the furthest westerly point of Galway Bay. Most of it is less than 45 km from Galway. Even if a student from Carraroe can get accommodation in Galway, he or she will not be able to afford it because the adjacent area grant would not pay for a few weeks of accommodation. Travelling 45 km from Galway would bring one beyond Loughrea, Dunmore or Tuam. A significant number of students and young working people have to get home in the evening because they cannot afford to stay in the city. They cannot get home either, however, because there is no bus to take them there. I acknowledge that work is being done on an evening service but it is too slow and more is needed. It is archaic to be unable to get out of town after 6 p.m. on the arterial non-Expressway rural routes and it does not face the new reality. These are practical and doable services for which there is a market but the service must be provided.

I ask Bus Éireann and the NTA to consider a policy of toilets being provided on all new buses with scheduled route durations of more than two hours. That is not necessary on short services but it is important, particularly for elderly people, that there be a toilet on buses with a journey duration of two hours or more. Most modern buses that undertake long journeys have toilets.

Rail and subsidies were mentioned. We are running national transport services for the entire country, not just areas with lots of people. All people pay taxes. The loss on the Cork to Dublin line is €45 million, while there are losses of €11 million on the Limerick to Ballybrophy line and €13 million on the Limerick to Galway line. The loss on Dublin suburban lines is €51 million. The witnesses may point out that the loss per passenger on the Cork to Dublin line and the Dublin suburban lines is far less than on the other lines I have mentioned. Of course, it is less per passenger. How does one get passengers to use a service that hardly exists? If the services are provided, passengers will use them and the price per passenger will decrease. Those losses take the central costs into account. The savings would drop dramatically were the lines to be closed because there would then be no saving on the central services. These lines need to be upgraded rather than closed. They will not solve Iarnród Éireann's problem because, simply, all rail lines need to be subsidised.

On Dublin, for years there was a very good campaign to reopen the Harcourt Street tram line. It is now the Luas line from Bride's Glen. It was also very fortuitous that the Broadstone line through Cabra was preserved as it is also now a Luas line. For many years, people wondered why there was an empty tunnel under the Phoenix Park when most people want to arrive at Connolly Station rather than Heuston Station. Connolly Station is in the part of the city where people work. Suddenly, hey presto, the tunnel could be opened. Services are not frequent enough, however, and it is a pity the train from Galway does not use the tunnel or arrive into Connolly Station on the Mullingar line, but that is another day's work.

There is an open railway line from Navan to Dublin which is regularly used by trains. The only problem is that they are freight trains from Tara Mines. Why does the commuter service which terminates in Drogheda not go to the railway station in the centre of Navan town? Has there been a costing of the upgrade of that railway line to allow it to take passenger trains? It seems obvious that the train could run to Drogheda, turn left, as do the ore trains, go to Navan and a few more stations between Drogheda and Navan and then return. One would not need additional trains because the ones currently operating to Drogheda would suffice. Why is the Navan-Drogheda loop not being used for commuter rail to Dublin? In a similar manner to the Harcourt Street tram line now being used by the Luas or the tunnel under the Phoenix Park once again being used, some day the penny will drop and the line from Drogheda to Navan will reopen, as will the line from Athenry to Claremorris. The latter will not happen under this Government but it will open in my lifetime.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Peter Burke to bring this round of questions to a conclusion. I will then ask the witnesses to respond and we will see if there are any supplementary questions.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance. I will be very brief. I ask Mr. Hernan for an update on a town bus service for Mullingar. I note west Clare, Cork, Drogheda and Athlone are mentioned in the documentation provided to the committee by the witnesses but Mullingar was specifically mentioned in Project Ireland 2040 in that regard.

I also seek an update on a revised timetable for the Expressway service from Mullingar to Dublin. I understand it is at an advanced stage or ready to be released and I would be grateful if he could update me in that regard.

On the roll-out of Local Link, no service has been provided in Westmeath. I ask Ms Graham why that is so. Was no application made? It had been brought to my attention that the service from Granard to Longford town is very welcome. However, Killoe, the biggest parish in Longford and which is almost at the midway point of the route, is less than a mile from the road on which the bus travels but the NTA seems unwilling for the bus to stop there in spite of the demand that has been demonstrated for such a stop.

Is there any way we could look at that? Councillor Gerry Hagan, who lives in Killoe, brought this to my attention. He has received many representations on it.

On trains at Mullingar station, there is supposed to be public consultation on putting extra routes on the Dublin to Sligo line. I was concerned that they would go in the opposite direction to commuters, so that the train would leave Dublin in the morning to Sligo and leave Sligo in the evening going to Dublin. What is the reasoning behind this being suggested? Perhaps the witnesses from Irish Rail could find out whether there is a possibility of holding a train at Mullingar station overnight, it could leave around 7 a.m. and that may assist commuters?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have some specific questions for the National Transport Authority, NTA. I understand two applications have been made by the Local Link in Clare for two services, one in west Clare from Kilkee to Kilrush and back into Ennis, and another service proposed from Ballyvaughan to Lisdoonvarna into Ennistymon, Corofin, Ruan and back into Ennis. Where do those applications stand? I am aware that the west Clare service was proposed some months ago.

I welcome the improvements to the Bus Éireann fleet which will get 135 new buses. I also note that local services will be enhanced in west Clare. Will the NTA expand on that? There was reference to Kilkee and Doonbeg in particular.

The key thing is connectivity and integration of services where possible, so that the Local Links service could complement a Bus Éireann service and also link into rail, as well as our airports.

Ms Anne Graham:

I will start with Deputy Fitzmaurice's questions. He is correct about bus shelter provision, we had to prioritise the areas that had the highest number of services and the highest demand in people being at the bus stop because of constraints in our funding. We would hope that we could put a bus shelter at every stop location but that will take some years. We had to put a priority system in place and given current funding we must focus on areas where demand is highest but we would like that to change very soon.

On our responsibilities, we have responsibility for the provision of rail services. We have a contract with Irish Rail for the rail passenger services. The Department has a contract with Irish Rail for the maintenance of the infrastructure and any extension or improvements to that is the responsibility of the Department of Transport, except where it is in the greater Dublin area where we have a role in funding the infrastructure improvements including rail. On the matter of improvements outside the greater Dublin area we are talking about improvement in frequency and the number of services on rail.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If one looks at services, obviously that means services for people to commute from A, B and C. I want to nail this because Irish Rail was very straightforward in its answer to my question at the last meeting. I refer to the line that is closed, to which the rail review does not refer. As part of the next ten year programme, does the NTA envisage any plans for that line to be reopened as means to bring people, be they in Tuam, the Claremorris area, or on to Athenry, as Deputy O'Keeffe spoke about, to Galway city as part of the transport network?

Ms Anne Graham:

We are not looking at that now. The commitment was to examine the feasibility of opening up or extending the western rail corridor. Again, that is the responsibility of the Department and is not something that we would look at, but they would take our advice on what we see as the future passenger demand.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What is the NTA's view?

Ms Anne Graham:

We have not done any assessment of that so I do not have a view. I could only have an informed view once we had done an assessment, if we are requested to do so by the Department.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The NTA has not been asked to do so.

Ms Anne Graham:

No. Our focus has been primarily on commuter services into the city, as in on the existing infrastructure, improving bus services especially in our regional cities and improving the priority for those services. That is our role on that.

On Dublin Airport and servicing it with a heavy rail line, in the lead up to developing the transport strategy for the greater Dublin area, we did a specific study on how Dublin Airport will be served by transport. Our recommendation, which was approved in the strategy, is that it be served by light rail not heavy rail and that in terms of serving the wider community in the Fingal area, the best option was a metro service serving both the airport and Swords. There is a commitment to examine whether heavy rail might be done but that would be after our transport strategy, which is 2035. That would be looked at again.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Am I correct that the cost of this light rail is envisaged at €3.5 billion to €4 billion and that it is ten or 15 years away?

Ms Anne Graham:

It is €3 billion. Our estimate is that we would deliver services from 2027.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The NTA will have it built by 2027.

Ms Anne Graham:

Yes, 2027.

Obviously we are concerned by increasing anti-social behaviour on our public transport services. We would not like to see that on our pilot services. We would have to see what additional measure we will have to take if there were to be increased anti-social behaviour on our public transport.

Delivering BusConnects in Galway is in the national development plan. No Luas is proposed for Galway in either the national planning framework or the national development plan. In the transport strategy that we developed, the demand levels are not at the level they need to be to support a light rail service. The plan is to have improvements in bus services across Galway.

I will hand over to my colleague to respond to Deputy O'Keeffe..

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Ms Graham missed the question on Local Link.

Ms Anne Graham:

I will ask Ms Malone to answer the Local Link questions.

Ms Margaret Malone:

On the Local Link, one of the queries about the evening service was the 11 p.m. finish and whether that was fair on rural communities. The span we are seeing in the applications is services running from 6 p.m. until midnight. We will have to see how it plays out. It is a pilot and we are looking closely at what the patronage will be like. It will be important for us to see as many people as possible using these services in order to build a case for continuing them into next year. To date, feedback has been that 11 p.m. probably works for quite a lot of people who are not using the services, particularly for going out for a drink but also going shopping, visiting relatives or socialising. We will play along with it and see how it goes.

On potential downtime in certain bus usage around the country, from the perspective of Local Link and rural transport, we have many small operators who are on contract with us to deliver services during the day but also on contract with Bus Éireann to deliver school services in the morning and early afternoon. We see many small operators around the country using and getting use out of their buses on an all-day basis.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

To respond to Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív's question, we have debated this issue before and take his point about the definition of a commuter service. Something on which we are engaging more is trying to differentiate between regular commuter services and other feeder and town services. As more funding becomes available, we are in regular discussions with Dublin Bus on where we can start to expand the reach of the day. We are starting earlier. The Deputy suggested a half-hour frequency in the morning peak. The next question is to what time will it continue in the evening. We agree that such a definition of a commuter service would be useful. Perhaps then we might designate certain services in that category. That might be something we could do in all major urban areas and, at the same time, designate other services in categories also.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What if they cross into an urban area? In Galway would it cover Barna or extend to areas 45 km or 50 km away from where people are forced to commute because of third level education grant rules? According to the definition of the Department of Education and Skills people living 45 km away are considered to be adjacent, but according to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, they are in the sticks. That is a crazy disconnect.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

I was not sure what the Deputy meant when he referred to a 45 km zone.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am referring to someone in third level education who receives a grant at the adjacent rate. It is presumed the student goes home every evening to a distance of 45 km.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

Do students living within 45 km receive a grant?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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No, they receive the grant at the adjacent rate, not the non-adjacent rate. It is lower and based on the premise that they go home every evening. Most students do not own a car.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

It is something at which we will look.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The presumption made by the Department of Education and Skills is that students can get beyond Carraroe or Dunmore every evening. They receive a grant of €1,000 if they have a piddly little income. The adjacent rate is tiny and the student's parents are on a very low income, if the grant is awarded. The Department presumes students can travel 45 km, but the NTA presumes they only want to travel to Barna.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

That is something we will definitely take on board. We will look at it and continue to work with our colleagues in Bus Éireann because we have expanded services into the evening and at the weekends in some parts of the country and would like to see more of it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If there was a rebalancing of the money between highly intensive services in Dublin and the poor mugs outside it, would it solve the problem? Take €10 million or €20 million from Dublin which has a big population and give it to the rest of us. There are 4 million people outside Dublin.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

If one puts Bus Éireann and LocalLink together, it is quite a bit more than for Dublin Bus. The balance has shifted slightly in recent years. We are actually looking at it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It should be four times more.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

We have had that debate before.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We will have it again.

Mr. Tim Gaston:

It is something to which we are moving where we are able to do so and where there is funding available to support it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We are talking about equality. We are talking about the number of people living in rural parts of Ireland receiving the same treatment in the budget. Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív has the figures and pointed out that it is a pittance. Would it be fair to say it is 25%?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is much lower.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Anyone who has been involved in business knows that things might be on the floor when one starts. A service could start badly, but the better it will become the more it is used. We are talking a great game about reducing the number of cars on the road and saying we will have everything hunky-dory and a beautiful country, but, at the same time, we are not giving people an opportunity. We are talking out of both sides of our mouth and it cannot continue.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There was a service from Galway to the Aran Islands on a boat called the Oileáin Árann. It took half a day to get there and the other half to get back. To be quite honest, there were bugger all people going to the Aran Islands. When I became Minister, we introduced services from Rossaveal. In fairness to the boat companies, they got better and better boats and increased the frequency of services. They are now being run on a purely commercial basis, with a subsidy for winter services. Massive numbers, amounting to hundreds of thousands, are going in and out. There are only 1,500 people living on the islands. What was proved was a frequent and fast efficient service would attract passengers. It does not take two days to get from the islands and two days to get back; people can travel in the morning and do their business. Everything is geared towards the level of usage and requirements. We insisted on a service starting from the islands because people wanted to get to town in the morning and back last thing in the evening. It was not a premium service because the islanders wanted to get to town and do their business and return on the one day. The idea that there cannot be demand on radial routes out of cities-----

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. The point has been well made. I ask the delegates to respond to the remaining questions.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

To answer Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice, unfortunately, I do not have an answer on the flexibility of the tender process for schools. I do not have that level of detail with me.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will Mr. Hernan look at it? I mean no disrespect to him because he has not been in his position long, but I have spoken to people who were in his role previously and it seems no one bothers his or her backside to try to change the system to make it better for Bus Éireann and the people. Someone needs to take the bull by the horns and sort out the problem.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

My commitment to the Deputy is I will get the specific details and revert to him directly. He referenced sub-contracting. There has been an increase in the level of sub-contracting buses since last October, but I am relieved to see the level declining. The Deputy asked whether we faced challenges in terms of the availability of buses with the appropriate ticket machines on board. No, we did not. To ensure the continuity of services for our customers, first and foremost, I made a decision that, in some instances, we would have cash fares. However, we have invested in ticket machines. Bar a very rare exception at this point, all sub-contracted services, as well as all of our own, now have ticket machines that can also accept the Leap card across the entire network.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Mr. Hernan is telling me that on some bus services it was possible to take cash because the appropriate machinery was not in place?

Mr. Ray Hernan:

It is possible that may have occurred in some instances. I do not believe it was a material number, but I cannot state categorically to the Deputy that all buses had a ticket machine. In some instances, needs must in providing a service. We always ensured cash would be accepted on services and have now eliminated that exposure to the company.

The Deputy referenced the use of school buses by LocalLink. One of the challenges is that the requirement tends to be at peak times in the morning and evening but particularly in the morning. These are the same times school buses are being used. I would like to see greater use of the dedicated school bus service, but using it is a challenge at off-peak times. They are being used at peak times. The question relates to when they are available.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We have the new system being spoken about by the Department, whereby we will all be brought to the pub in the evening.

Mr. Ray Hernan:

Again, it comes down to availability. Our school bus service is provided by part-time drivers. It is not just about the availability of school buses, it is also about the availability of drivers. I am happy to co-operate with LocalLink and the NTA. If there is flexibility, I am more than happy to consider the matter.

The Deputy mentioned fleet management, or the allocation of buses and their size. This has been an issue. I acknowledge it is something on which we have focused in my time to ensure the size and capacity of buses are more aligned with the demand for the service.

One example to which the Deputy referred in the past was Athlone where the size of buses appeared to be excessive versus demand. I can confirm that, with the additional buses due to arrive between now and the end of June next year, all buses in Athlone will be replaced by others of smaller size, which will be more reflective of the demand for the service. Aligning the fleet with demand is consistently under review, both internally and also with the NTA.

The final issue to which the Deputy referred was the use of gas buses. As mentioned, that matter is under review. The last of the diesel buses with Euro 6 emissions will be delivered early next year. Beyond that date we will be restricted in the acquisition or use of diesel buses. The emissions from existing buses are consistent with those from from compressed natural gas buses.

I will refer Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív's queries about the provision of services to my colleague Mr. O'Mahony.

Mr. Robert O'Mahony:

The Deputy mentioned the fact that we were working on a proposal for services to and from Carraroe and referred to moving to an early frequency. The proposal being worked on would see a bus service approximately every 30 minutes at morning and evening peak times and then at a core frequency of every two hours throughout the day. The service would extend into late evening such that there could be a bus services at 7 p.m., 9 p.m. and 11 p.m.. That would meet the requirements of those who want to go to and from work, to college if they have late lectures, or to socialise in Galway. That is our initial plan for services to and from Carraroe.

When we make a change on a route, we review demand and the response from the public. Almost exclusively, based on changes we have made in the past two years, the frequency will increase further. An example would be route 458 from Ballina to Sligo to Enniskillen. We increased the frequency of the service to every three hours and are now considering increasing it to every two hours. Again, it is in reaction to demand.

There were two other comments on changes to networks. Route 115 was mentioned by Deputy Peter Burke. We are finalising that proposal and hope to introduce the new timetable in the first week of September, the week after the papal visit. That is the current plan.

With regard to route 336, from Kilkee to Ennis, and route 333, from Doonbeg to Ennis, we are completely revising the network. It will be based on enhancing connectivity between Kilkee and Ennis and also linking Doonbeg with Kilkee. A bus service will start in Doonbeg and travel to Kilkee and then to Ennis via Kilrush. One will also be able to catch a bus in Kilkee, travel to Doonbeg and on to Ennistymon. There are two routes, with a circular bus route in each direction. We are considering increasing the frequency to approximately seven services per day on the main line between Kilkee and Ennis. It will start early in the morning, with the first bus service at 6.05 a.m., approximately, which will connect with the first train service from Ennis to Dublin. There will also be a later bus service at night at 9 p.m. from Ennis. There will be a bus service at 7 p.m. that will feed from the last train service from Dublin to Ennis. One of the requirements on which we receive a great deal of feedback was to be able to move from west Clare to Dublin, to do whatever business one had to do in the capital and to get back on the one day. There will also be an increase in the number of services on a Saturday, a Sunday and public holidays.

On the vehicles to be used, the service will be rolled out initially with standard coaches, but part of the new fleet is to be allocated to this network. Therefore, from early 2019, the service will be operated with fully low floor accessible vehicles.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I had a question on fares.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, there is another meeting which is due to start here-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It was a simple question.

Ms Anne Graham:

We continuously look at improving the fare structure to make it better value for customers. Last year we offered improved fares in the regional cities with Bus Éireann. There were significant reductions in fares. Depending on affordability, based on our PSO budget, we will see whether we can do more in achieving value for money for customers.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Am I right in thinking people living in rural Ireland are subsidising in the fare structure those living in urban areas through their taxes?

Ms Anne Graham:

We had this debate previously.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, I must bring the meeting to a conclusion. I thank the delegates for this worthwhile and meaningful engagement. Is it agreed that the committee publish the opening statements, submissions and all other documents received for this meeting? Agreed.