Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Deputy Martin Kenny, who replaces Deputy Carol Nolan, to the committee. I thank her for her dedication and hard work during her time on this committee. Could everyone please turn their mobile phones off or to flight mode because they interfere with the broadcasting services? In accordance with standard procedures for paperless committees agreed by the Committee on Procedures and Privileges, all documentation for the meeting has been circulated to members on the committee's document database prior to the meeting.

The Estimates were referred by the Dáil to this committee on 14 December 2017. The purpose of today's meeting of the select committee is to consider the Revised Estimates for 2018 for the Department of Rural and Community Development, amounting to €216.001 million. Vote 42 - Rural and Community Development amounts in the current year provision to €208.301 million, and by way of capital supply, unspent provisions, to €7.7 million. There are total funds of €216.001 million for the expenses of the Minister for Rural and Community Development, including certain services and for the payment of grants.

Today's select committee meeting is to examine the Revised Estimates 2018. This is an ongoing opportunity for the committee to make the process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues. The programme-based structure of the Estimates is intended to assist the committee in focusing on what the Department is committed to achieving in respect of outputs and outcomes. I refer to considering whether the performance targets included in the Estimates are a sufficiently complete description of the services provided by the Department and whether those targets strike the right balance in terms of the needs of society. I also refer to considering whether the information provided by the Department makes clear how the moneys available are allocated between services and whether these allocations are the most appropriate in the circumstances.

I propose to use the briefing prepared by the committee staff, and previously circulated to the committee, to guide our consideration of the Revised Estimate 2018. I will refer to this briefing by page number throughout the meeting. The briefing document examines each of the Vote 42 programmes in respect of the 2018 allocations provided at subhead level and any associated high level metrics provided.

I propose to proceed programme by programme and subhead by subhead. At the outset of the consideration of each programme, I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, to give a high level overview of the programme, including the pressures likely to impact on the Department's performance and related expenditure in respect of each programme in 2018. If having discussed the subhead within a programme detailed in the secretariat briefing and members then wish to raise issues relating to a subhead not covered in the briefing, they may do so before we move on to the next programme. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I was listening carefully, even if I might not have appeared to be. Can we make recommendations here? I accept the Vote is fixed but within that, can we make recommendations that, for example, some subheads be given less money and others given more money?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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As I understand it, the budget is fixed. There are four different programmes and contained within those programmes are different subheads. I will give members an opportunity to ask whatever questions they wish within each subhead after the Minister makes an opening remark.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can we suggest to the Minister, as a committee, that he rejig the way he has allocated the money between the various subheads?

It will become very relevant as the debate develops this afternoon.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Minister will be able to respond to any question Deputy Ó Cuív has as we progress through the various programmes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That was not my question. I am asking whether the committee can make a recommendation to the Minister.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are here to consider the Estimate as it is before us. If the Deputy wants to make a recommendation, I am sure the Minister will be able to deal with it at that stage.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is one thing Deputy Ó Cuív making a recommendation, but it is another thing for the committee to make a recommendation.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are bound to look at the Estimate today. That is what this meeting is about. If you want to make a recommendation to the Minister, by all means go ahead and do so.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The question I am asking is not whether I can make a recommendation. Of course I can say whatever I want within the terms of reference of the meeting. Can the committee make a recommendation, collectively, to the Minister?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Let us see how we get on. We have a long meeting ahead of us. There are a lot of programmes and subheads and we are only starting off. Let us see how we get on.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make one more point before we start. It is a pity we are almost one third of the way through the year before we even get to discuss how the money was laid out. Already a lot of decisions have been made and a lot of water has gone under the bridges on the Corrib, but one thing we do not have, which is a huge lack, is the six monthly report on the action plan for rural Ireland, which should have come out in February. That means we are lacking information we really should have. Perhaps the Chairman can ask the Minister when we will get the six monthly report, and why we did not get it in time to have digested what is in it and have a few very pertinent questions on the progress made under the report. The report covers the wider remit that does not come under the Estimate. It is the wide role the Minister has across Cabinet in making sure rural Ireland is looked after.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's point is taken. It is a very relevant point. I will proceed. I welcome the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Michael Ring, and the Minister of State at the Departments of the Rural and Community Development and Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Seán Kyne. I also extend a warm welcome to the officials accompanying the Minister and Minister of State. I also thank the Minister and the Minister of Sate for the briefings supplied to the committee to accompany the Estimate. To commence our discussions, I invite the Minister and the Minister of State to make their brief opening statements.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Chairman. This is my first appearance before the committee since he took up his role and I wish him well. I welcome the new committee members and thank previous members for their contribution in the past.

I am very pleased, despite some delays, to be able to attend the committee today to discuss the Revised Estimate for the Department for 2018. The Estimate for this year provides for an overall spend of €231 million plus a capital carryover of €7.7 million. This funding is spread across a range of programmes dealing with rural development and community development, as well as funding for the Charities Regulator. The context for this funding is especially important. Ireland stands at an important point in its development. We have emerged from a devastating recession, during which unemployment escalated and the quality of life of all of our citizens was diminished. Having corrected the national economy we have an opportunity to create a long-term and sustainable future for our people, not just in economic terms but in social and cultural terms also.

The national development plan and the national planning framework provide the overarching framework for Government policy and investment over the next decade and up to 2040. These documents set out an ambition for Ireland in 2040, an Ireland where we expect an extra 1 million people will have been added to our population and an additional 660,000 people will be at work.

Project Ireland 2040 sets a bold vision for national development and identifies ten strategic outcomes to which the Government is fully committed. The plan is a good one for rural Ireland, with many of the strategic outcomes benefitting rural areas across investment programmes in sectors such as transport, energy and tourism. The Department has a key role to play in driving progress towards the strategic outcome of strengthening rural economies and communities in the national development plan. The investments we make through the Department's Vote will be significant in delivering on this objective and enabling and promoting the regeneration of communities the length and breadth of the country. The announcement of the new rural regeneration and development fund in the national development plan is a tremendous boost for rural Ireland. It is significant extra funding of €1 billion over ten years, and signals a new approach and new potential for rural areas. The basis for the Government's investment is to support and realise the full potential of rural communities throughout the country.

Rural regeneration requires a co-ordinated approach to public investment, getting funding and aligning initiatives to enhance the capacity of rural areas to grow substantially. We need to be ambitious and innovative in our use of public funding to achieve the best impact for rural communities. The new fund will provide the means for achieving this. I am consulting with my colleagues in Government on the establishment of the fund and hope to make announcements in this regard shortly.

I am conscious not to intrude excessively into the committee's time to examine the Department's 2018 Estimate, and I would like to allow some time for my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, to speak, so I will briefly highlight key points on the Estimate.

The Revised Estimate before the select committee sets out the Department's budget for 2018. Gross expenditure of €231.532 million is budgeted for the Department this year. This represents an increase of 42% on the provisions in 2017. Part of the increase is due to the transfer to the Department of the community services programme, which was formerly under the remit of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. The Department's current expenditure provision for 2018 is €144.024 million. The capital provision for 2017 is €87.508 million. In addition, provision has also been made for the capital carryover of €7.7 million for 2017, which will supplement the provision in the Estimate.

The Estimate is broken down into three programme areas. These are rural development and regional affairs, community development and the Charities Regulatory Authority. The total provision for the rural development and regional affairs programme is €93.384 million. The purpose of the programme is to promote and make long-term sustainable economic and social progress in rural Ireland. Key actions include the implementation of the Leader programme, with the investment of €35 million and an additional capital carryover of €5 million; the delivery of a range of rural development schemes, including the rural recreation scheme and CLÁR, for which almost €19 million has been allocated plus carryover of €2.7 million capital; the town and village renewal scheme, which has an allocation of €15 million for this year; and the local improvement scheme, which has been allocated €10 million.

I wrote to the local authorities earlier this year setting out a schedule for the launch of these schemes and community development programmes to allow the local authorities and communities to plan their projects more effectively. I began launching the schemes much earlier than was the case in the past two years, commencing with the launch of the local improvement scheme in February. I also launched the CLÁR programme in March. The town and village renewal scheme and the rural recreation scheme will be announced shortly.

The Department's 2018 Vote provides €133.596 million in funding for a range of community programmes. Two programmes in particular account for the bulk of this funding. More than €43 million is provided for the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP. Last week in Limerick, I launched the 2018 to 2022 programme. The aim of SICAP is to reduce poverty and promote social inclusion and equality through local, regional and national engagement and collaboration. The 2018 allocation will provide for the first year of a new five year programme of important supports for people in disadvantaged communities. This will allow for the key essential front-line services delivered through earlier programmes to be maintained and further developed.

The second major programme is the community services programme, with an allocation of more than €46 million. This programme provides for financial support to community organisations to deliver services through a social enterprise model.

In February I announced a total of €815,000 in additional funding for 12 social enterprises under strand 3 of the programme. I expect to be in a position to announce further funding allocations later in the year.

The community development programme provision also funds local community development committees, LCDCs, and public participation networks. The development of these structures is strategically very important to ensure local voices influence planning and investment decisions at local level. For example, the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, is managed and implemented though the LCDCs in each local authority area. They provide the local knowledge to make sure the SICAP is implemented in ways that address the key issues in local areas.

This is a time of exciting opportunity for the country and I know that members will share my view that, regardless of where people live in Ireland, they should have an opportunity and better choices. There are many excellent initiatives happening in rural Ireland and communities. My Department's role is to help to build on these excellent examples of community involvement, job creation and social cohesion. The Government is committed to ensuring its policies recognise the unique challenges sometimes faced by communities. Our future investment choices must take account of these challenges. I am also particularly mindful of the need to ensure funds voted by the Oireachtas are put to use for the purposes for which they are voted. To that end, I have taken a number of steps to maximise the efficiency of our investment, including direct engagement with city and county managers to ensure more effective and efficient use of funding provided for them. I know that members will share my desire to improve the lives of people who live in rural Ireland and build strong communities, be they in urban or rural areas. I look forward to engaging with members in that regard.

I have kept my remarks as brief as possible to allow for a full discussion on the programmes in place and the funding to be provided by my Department this year. I am happy to deal with questions members may have. Perhaps the committee might allow the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Kyne, to say a few words on his area, including the Charities Regulatory Authority.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and members of the select committee. I am pleased to be able to join the committee in considering the Revised Estimates for 2018 for the Department. As the Minister has done, I emphasise the importance of the current context and the urgent need for Ireland to put in place on a sustainable basis plans for long-term national development. I welcome the national development plan and the national planning framework and look forward to working with my colleagues to achieve the objectives set out in the plans.

During my appearance at the committee last November I set out my responsibilities as including oversight of the works of the Western Development Commission; functions related to the Department's input on rural broadband under the national planning framework; an overview of a number of funding schemes under the community programme; responsibility for the Charities Regulatory Authority, excluding the appointment of members of the board; and the Control of Dogs Act. I also have responsibility for the Atlantic economic corridor task force. In that regard, I am sure the committee will welcome the inclusion of the corridor in the national development plan and the national planning framework.

On broadband, members will be aware that our goal in the national broadband plan is to achieve 100% coverage of high-speed broadband across Ireland. My colleague, the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, is working to progress this objective. My Department is working with local authorities to ensure there are no local barriers to deployment and identify priority areas for roll-out. A provision of €2 million has been allocated from the Department for this task in 2018.

The Department also has lead responsibility for developing the relationship within the State with the community and voluntary sector and setting the policy framework. This sector has €12.7 million budgeted for in 2018. The Department's community and voluntary support programmes provide a cohesive framework of support for the community and voluntary sector by giving support to volunteer centres and volunteer information services nationwide, as well as a number of national organisations such as Volunteer Ireland and Young Social Innovators. The funding for all of these organisations is designed to strengthen and foster voluntarism in Ireland, building strong support for volunteering locally from the bottom up. That is key to the Department's citizen engagement objectives and supports the spirit of participation within communities. The scheme to support national organisations in the community and voluntary sector, SSNO, is a key element of the State's support for the role of the sector. The SSNO provides multi-annual funding towards the core costs of national organisations in the sector, with a focus on organisations that provide support for those who are disadvantaged.

The Revised Estimates provide for an allocation of just over €4.4 million in current funding in 2018 for the Charities Regulatory Authority. The charities regulator is Ireland's national statutory regulator for charitable organisations. It is an independent authority that was established on 16 October 2014 under the Charities Act 2009 and that now comes within the remit of the Department. The general function of the regulator is to regulate charitable organisations operating in Ireland so as to increase public trust and confidence in the management and administration of charities. The regulator is independent in the performance of its statutory functions.

I am delighted to be working with the Minister, Deputy Michael Ring, in the new Department. I am very conscious of the critical role the Department must play in supporting Ireland's overall national development, especially rural and community development.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and the Minister of State. That concludes the opening statements. I propose that we start with programme A which is dealt with on page 8 of the committee secretariat's briefing document. At the start of each programme I will invite the Minister to give an overview of it. We shall then break each programme into subheads. I invite the Minister to make a short statement to give a high level overview of programme A.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Programme A refers to the town and village scheme, the Leader programme, the rural recreation scheme, the CLÁR programme and the LCDCs. If members have questions on any of these programmes, I will be delighted to answer them, if I can.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I propose to start with subhead A6, rural economy sub-programme of the Leader programme.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Reading the fine print of the Estimate, the Minister has €30 million for the Leader programme. There is a carryover of another €5 million, giving a total of €35 million, of which €11 million or €12 million will go to the cost of administration of th programme. How this is done is one mystery I have yet to solve. It is considered to be capital expenditure, but it is actually to meet the cost of administration. That leaves an allocation of about €23 million for this year. It concerns me that, give or take a few hundred thousand euro, there is a total of €23 million because I understand that at the beginning of the year the Department spent €1.5 million. It is even more concerning that in the months from February to April total expenditure on projects was €500,000. I am not blaming the Minister for this because it is up to the companies involved, all of which I understand have been set up. Only one - Galway East which I presume is up and running - had not been approved tjo receive even €1. The rest seem to have been approved. The figure for approvals has gone from €20 million to €29 million. However, one third of the year has passed and I suspect very strongly that the figure of this year will go nowhere near €23 million. That is why I asked the Chairman a serious question. He remembered this cycle last year.

Rather than leave it until after the holidays, sometime between now and the end of June the Minister might have to make a genuine call or what we used to call the cash call. If the money is not going to be spent to meet demand under the Leader programme, it could be spent more usefully on other things. When I look at the accurate expenditure figure for LEADER - According to the reply I received to a parliamentary question on 17 April, at the end of March the accurate figure for expenditure under the Leader programme was €2.6 million.

Is the Minister already planning? In his heart and soul, the Minister might recognise this as not being far off the mark. It is very likely that if he does not do anything, he will wind up with not all of this being spent. As the Minister knows, except for local improvement schemes, LIS, the spending of money is slow. If one waits until September to start checking the money, one will not get out of the door by the end of December. There always seems to be a concern in the Department that it might bust a bolt in capital expenditure. That can happen in current expenditure and has to be avoided at all costs. It is much harder in capital. Normally, in December, one is actually scrambling around looking for bills to pay but in the event that one arrives on 1 December with all one's bills paid, everything up to date but with the Department out of money, any bill that comes in in December does not have to be paid until January if one so chooses, because there is a 30-day pay period. There is a great cushion there, as the Minister knows, and there are other devices to shelter the Minister. What is the Minister's prognosis for the spend on Leader? Does he really believe he is going to spend €23 million, that is, spending €22 million between now and the end of the year, at the end of November and beginning of December, because the Minister has virtually spent none? If he is not going to spend it, when is he going to start shifting the money or at least making contingency plans to shift the money and getting other programmes that the money could be spent on? I have many good ideas for the Minister but we would want some lead-in time.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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The questions Deputy Ó Cuív asked are the questions I would ask about Leader. Communities are desperate for the funding. It is not happening. We have mentioned that here in the past two years. Every Deputy I know has mentioned it. The Minister and his predecessor seem to be telling us there is loads of money available. Why is the money not getting out to the people and the communities? If there is €23 million to be spent this year, I would ask the same question as Deputy Ó Cuív, that is, how in God's name is that going to be spent? As far as I know, the roll-out and procedure was changed and anybody with something between his or her eyes would know that that was a bad move. It has destroyed the whole thing. I know there is no point in saying this, and it is water under the bridge. The bottom line is that as I meet those involved in numerous projects in west Cork over the past couple of years and throughout the country, others are desperately seeking this funding and it is not filtering down to the community. The only money that I heard of was when somebody told me that our local Fine Gael Deputy had on posted his Facebook page that he was able to get money for a group. I thought that was the great thing about being on the Leader board, that we never announced who got money. The Leader company announced who got money. Now it looks as if the politician will announce that he has got the news from the Minister or such. There is so little of it coming that that is why everybody is talking about it and asking whether Leader funding is starting. Is it? Maybe the Minister could enlighten us as to when or how this will be spent and why it is not getting to people.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have a question on Leader. The previous Minister, Deputy Humphreys, called the stakeholders back last year and a number of actions resulted from that. Would the Minister consider holding a similar type of meeting to see how those actions are working? There seems to be an issue here with Article 48 checks. The Minister might try to address the questions posed.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Cuív asked a fair question. He identified early last year, when I took over this job, that there would be a shortfall for the Leader programme, and he was correct. I will give some figures on Leader itself and then I will answer the Deputy's question. There was a €908,000 spend in January and one of €330,000 in February. The spend in March rose to €1.4 million and the spend in April is already €1 million. It is beginning-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Does that include administration?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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When administration is taken out, it is nearly €1 million a month.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept that. The Deputy has raised an issue with the programme itself previously. We made changes to the schemes. The other figures I want to give are on the amount of schemes that have been approved, the value of them and what is coming down the line. Up to the end of the year, we had 900 schemes approved, to the value of €26,292,771 and we have 285 now waiting to be approved, to the value of €16.165 million. The Deputy was involved in the Leader programme and knows that it takes a while for schemes to ramp up. When we make the allocations, if it is a community hall or another building, the money has to be spent before it can be drawn back down. I want to see the money spent. The Deputy asked a straight question and I will give a straight answer. He is correct that I will monitor this very closely. I will be monitoring earlier this year and I will not allow what happened last year to happen. I give the Deputy a commitment that I will monitor this into June and it certainly will not pass July, and then I will have to start making decisions with regard to going to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to see where I can reallocate some of that money.

Last year, I looked at capital funding, and the Deputy is correct about it. It is difficult to get schemes that can draw down the funding this year. Last year, I brought in the shows, and gave some funding to them, Tidy Towns and the libraries. I looked at ways in which the capital funding could be spent by the end of the year. With regard to Leader itself, I will give a simple example. I will not use the Deputy's constituency but another constituency, Kerry, which has 119 approvals. If one goes to other counties, there are numbers such as 23, 50, 20, and 15. The programmes are up and running. I would hope that we would see more allocations, more groups coming in and more of that funding being drawn down. As I say, we have the money and we want to spend the money. There is no doubt but that since January, one can see the spend profile is increasing month to month and we expected that to happen. On the Deputy's question, I will have to monitor that between now and June and July. I will be making proposals and have to talk to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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According to the Minister's figures - not mine - on 15 April, total project payments under the Leader programme were €1.5 million. The administration is easily budgeted for because it is the same when aggregated over the year - it is approximately €11 million. The Chairman asked a question about clearing roadblocks and so on but the Minister made a valid point in reply. If there was €50 million approved by September or October, which would be a ramp-up to double where we are at present, the reality is that at that stage, it would be up to the people who get the money to spend it, make the claim and do everything right. We know that takes time. All of us here are practical politicians. No other person will knock down the Minister's door to get a plan and then, six months or a year later, not have started the house. What can one do about it?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is a fact.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In a similar way, people get a sanction for money under these things and, for one reason or another, there are delays in commencing and so on. I am being pragmatic and while we would much prefer to be way ahead in approvals, we are where we are. I accept that it is ramping up slowly but no matter how fast it ramps up in the second half of the year, very little of what is approved in the second half of the year will be spent this year. Moreover, much of what has been approved to date will not be spent this year. I welcome the Minister's commitment that there will not be an underspend this year and that if it is not going to be spent on Leader, we will start to put it into other things. The Minister can swap it around and get the money next year. Leader will always be funded by Government.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman asked a question about the groups. I hope to have a forum with the local action group, LAG, companies in June or July. I will certainly have discussions with them about what the roadblocks are.

Deputy Ó Cuív was being fair when he agreed that we had made changes. The programmes are up and running. I want to spend the money. The Deputy is correct, in that I must be ready with schemes if there is going to be an underspend. I have learnt the lesson from last year and will not let that situation recur. This will go to June or July but not beyond that and I will then make decisions as regards a ramp-up in the Leader programme.

The Deputy is also correct about needing a minor miracle in respect of some programmes. As has been pointed out, I need to start examining forums and local action groups, LAGs, that are not working. These groups are up and running. Deputy Ó Cuív mentioned funding and administration. That money has been drawn down but I want to see real action under the Leader programme. A few programmes around the country are already seeking further funding. I will need to take some advice from my officials, but if I need to start moving money around - if I can, since this is European funding alongside some Irish Government funding - I must start considering rewarding those programmes that are performing and reviewing those that are not.

This also needs to happen within local authorities in terms of town and village schemes, as well as other schemes. The Deputy might have to ask further questions about the other schemes that we operate, but this is why I have spoken to local authorities and put it in writing to them. At least now they know. To be fair to them, we did not have schemes in the past few years, so they did not have the CLÁR programme, the rural recreation scheme or the town and village scheme. They did not have the staff or wherewithal to implement those programmes. They now know, however, that these programmes will be in continuation for a number of years and I have outlined the situation in writing to them. I have kept my word so far, in that the local improvement scheme, LIS, has been announced. The town and village scheme will be announced this week and the rural recreation scheme will be announced in the next few weeks. The CLÁR programme is open but will close this weekend. Now that local authorities know where they are, they can start planning in respect of these programmes.

The Deputy asked a fair question about the Leader programme and I have given an honest answer. I will monitor this situation up to July, at which point I will have to make decisions.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask a final question?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am going to call Deputy Healy-Rae as well, after which we will conclude our discussion on this section.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a quick question. The larger projects of €300,000, €400,000 or €500,000 are those that are most likely to have a lasting legacy. Let us be honest about it - if the Government matches a project's funding of €500,000, that is still only €1 million. With all of the significant costs involved nowadays in terms of consultants, planning, quantity surveyors and the like that did not exist in the old days, €1 million does not count as a large project, but at least it provides something that will still be around in ten or 15 years' time. With some smaller projects, though, it would be hard to pinpoint what Leader had done ten or 15 years later. A number of projects have left good legacies that will last a long time.

Has the Minister considered encouraging Leader companies to pursue what we used to call "flagship projects"? He was familiar with them. They would have a lasting legacy, but there seems to be a move away from them towards smaller projects. That is a pity, as this is about trying to create a permanency of development in rural Ireland.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is correct. I have seen a number of grant aid requests from programmes in various counties. In Carlow, for example, requests relating to a number of community halls have come through. In Waterford, funding has been requested for food hubs, which will be long lasting and will create jobs. These will be pilot schemes. Like the Deputy, I would not like to see Leader companies just looking for a quick fix of money. We must be fair, however, and give larger projects that have grant aid approved a bit of time to be developed, built and rolled out.

The overall policy of the Leader programme is to try to provide funding to communities and ensure it is used within them. My interest and that of the Deputy is to ensure that Leader projects are operating and available to people. Some programme providers have told me that they are now going out to talk to people, advise them on what is available and invite their ideas. I agree that it is always nice for Leader, town and village or other schemes to leave a legacy, so we do not want there to only be smaller schemes that do not leave any legacy. That is a matter for the Leader companies.

We must be patient, given the number of projects that are being approved. Some of them will take time. A number of counties emphasise different programmes. I want to see the funding being spent.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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To conclude our discussion on this subhead, I call Deputy Danny Healy-Rae.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I congratulate and thank the Minister for the LIS funding that he gave to Kerry last year.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to stop the Deputy, but this subhead relates to the Leader programme.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I will discuss that, but I cannot be criticising the man all of the time.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy does not have to, but he can congratulate the Minister on this subhead as well.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I would have it said by now if you had kept your mouth shut.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should keep his remarks to the Leader programme.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The money is being put to good use and we are grateful for it. I would like to think that it was because of my constant representations to the Minister. I am glad that he acceded and gave us the money. It is a great scheme and everyone appreciates it.

I am not happy with the way the Leader programme is being rolled out. The system heretofore of development companies administering the programme was perfect. There is a great deal of duplication and time wasted with local community development committees, LCDCs, which were never necessary. We have to blame the man responsible, namely, Commissioner Phil Hogan. It is to be regretted. The Leader programme as we know it now is only a pale shadow of the Leader programme that we had up to 2013.

I welcome the CLÁR funding. Does the Minister envisage that it can be spent on roads in CLÁR areas or-----

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to be repetitive, but the Deputy-----

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is on the agenda.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is, but it is the next subhead. We are concluding our discussion on the Leader subhead.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The Chairman is being tough.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am not being tough at all. We have a long agenda ahead of us. Everyone else is sticking to it and I ask that the Deputy do so as well. We are only dealing with Leader now. CLÁR is the next subhead. If the Deputy has a question on CLÁR, he should hold it for the next slot.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Fine.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the Leader programme, the Deputy's county is a credit. I will cite the figures for Kerry.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is very good.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Kerry has 119 approvals to the value of €2,124,935 and a further 33 projects amounting to almost €1.5 million ready for approval. I am going to visit Kerry to see how it is operating its programme so well. It has almost €3.5 million worth of projects approved. It is ahead of the posse. Once Kerry County Council gets funding under LIS, CLÁR and town and village schemes, it seems to be able to spend it.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Do the figures for Kerry include IRD Duhallow? That development company covers Gneeveguilla, Rathmore and south-east Kerry.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am open to correction, but my understanding is that these figures relate to the Kerry Leader programme.

That is the name of it. From my understanding, it is for Kerry only. We can check that, and we will send the information to the Deputy if I am wrong. I think it is for Kerry only, but we will check it for the Deputy.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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There are two partnerships that cover south Kerry and north Kerry. The IRD programme for Duhallow covers a small bit of Kerry as well.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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My apologies. I had to leave to speak in the Chamber. I was not here for the initial contribution and it was not from any disrespect to the Minister.

We all need to see more money spent via the Leader programme throughout the country. I think the Minister would agree that there has been a much smaller rate of take-up and also a hesitancy on the part of an awful lot of community projects. They all say - they cannot all be wrong - that getting involved in Leader brings more bureaucracy and red tape. They feel that the position that they are in now is much more difficult than it was in the past. The Minister has said that progress has been made in cleaning some of that up, but there is clearly an issue here.

Several years ago, the European Commission was sending people to Ireland to look at the Leader programme and how well it was rolled out. Ireland was being used as an example. I do not think the Commission would do the same now. That is no reflection on the Ministers, it is a reflection on the way it has been changed. Perhaps it needs time to bed down or it may take time to sort itself out, but clearly everyone is aware that there is a problem. The Minister acknowledged this by saying that if something has not shifted by July, he will have to re-examine the position. The big picture must be looked at. There must be a realisation that whatever was done with this Leader programme, it is not working as well as previous iterations. That is something that needs to be acknowledged and sorted out.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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When Commissioner Hogan is here tomorrow, I presume it would be a good idea for him to bring his good offices to bear on the Government and encourage it to simplify the administration of Leader under the new Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, and to get rid of all the layers. However, he might have to discuss that matter with himself in the first instance. He might remember that a certain Mr. Hogan, who is related to him, brought in most of this complication. I can ask the Commissioner about this tomorrow, but I take it that there is no objection from Brussels to simplifying the Leader programme next time round and turning it into the nice slim-line model that used to obtain. I presume it would be a help to the Minister if he did away with some of the over-regulation and the over-checking regarding sums that amount to peanuts and tried to focus more on making money available on the ground.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will respond first to Deputy Martin Kenny, who was speaking in the Dáil when I gave the figures. Up to 900 projects have been approved, with approximately €26 million spent. A total of 285 projects are awaiting approval. In the Deputy's county, Leitrim, there were 20 approvals for a total spend of €498,000. A further 25 projects are waiting to be approved for spending to the tune of €2 million. In all fairness to the programme, it takes a bit of time for it to wrap up. It takes time for applications to come in, approvals to be issued and money to be drawn down.

Implementation has been referred to. We made 31 changes to the programme. In June or July, I will be holding a forum to see what the problems are now. I met the national organisation a few months ago and its members were quite happy with the changes. Of the 31 changes the Government made, 29 have been implemented. On the programme itself, if there is anything that is creating a major problem, we will look at it again. When a problem arose in the context of bureaucracy, we looked at it and made 31 changes.

The programme is starting to move. The applications are starting to come in, but it takes a bit of time. On the overall funding for the programme for the next couple of years, I can see a Minister facing the problem of having to go back to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to ask for a substantial amount of money. That is going to happen, and Deputy Ó Cuív knows it. Having said that, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Finance are cognisant of this. When I was negotiating my budget last year, it was one of the issues that was examined.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Since the Minister is reading out statistics on everybody's county, he might as well do the same for the Chair's county. Perhaps he can tell us how many projects have been approved in Galway, the total amount of money that has been approved and the total amount spent.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the Galway east programme, there has been nothing, not even an application. Nothing has been approved. In Galway west, six were approved to the value of €92,554.17, and seven are waiting to be approved to the value of €81,679.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What is waiting in east Galway? Nothing has been approved. Nothing has been spent. What is waiting?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Six projects have been approved.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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No, that is the case in west Galway.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I beg the Deputy's pardon. He is right. In Galway east, nothing has been approved.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Minister any figure on what sum is waiting?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The number listed here is zero. To be fair, as the Deputy will know, there was a second local action group selection process in Galway. That was only carried out in April 2017.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes but with no disrespect, they knew it was coming. There was not too much competition for it.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The contracts were not signed.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I know that. However, one would have thought that they would have a lot of stuff lined up, ready to rock and roll, because they knew. They got management money for all that time, did they not?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will get my officials to look into it and see what is going on. However, the figure here is zero.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is the people who are losing out.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They are, and I will get my officials to have a chat with them in order to discover what is actually happening.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I would appreciate it.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Next we will deal with subhead A5, national rural development schemes. These include the rural recreation scheme, CLÁR and the walks scheme.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I suppose we do not want to be here too long, but I have a few pertinent questions. Under this heading, I recall the famous €26 million that was given to the county councils in 2016 as prepayments. Has the Minister any idea how much of that remains to be spent as of April 2018?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the context of pre-spending, 86% of the funding has been spent.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That means that 14% has not been spent.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is true that 14% has not been spent, but 86% of it has.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is nearly €4 million.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In some of the schemes, 100% of the funding has been spent. The figure for other schemes 84% or 89%. When the pre-funding amounts for all the schemes are added together, including town and village programmes and the rural recreational programme, 86% of the 2016 disbursal has been spent.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What that means in simple English is that almost €4 million has been paid into the coffers of local authorities since December 2016 and that, a year and a half later, this money has not gone to the benefit of the people for whom it was provided. Has the Minister given those local authorities an ultimatum? Have they been told to spend by, say, the end of June or give the Department the money back so that it can be recycled to people who will spend it and honour the deal?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have written to them asking them to give me an outline. I met representatives from the County and City Management Association and they gave me a commitment that the money would be spent in the first quarter of the year. To be fair, which I suppose we have to be, I am giving them a bit of time because of the weather. We had a bad winter. However, we have written to them. I want a timeline on spending and I will be giving them an ultimatum. I want them to come back to me now.

Considering the winter we had and the percentage of money that has been spent - the Deputy is right to say that 14%, almost €4 million, is a great deal money - we will have to recoup that money. However, I am hoping that the money will be spent. I got an undertaking that they will have it spent by March. However, I have to give them a bit of leeway because of the weather.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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While the point is taken that the winter was bad, it should never have occurred because it should all have been spent last year. They had a summer last year during which to spend it. It was given in 2016, not spent in 2017 and we are now making an excuse about 2018. I accept that not having taken the money back on 1 January, the Department could not expect people to spend it given some of the weeks in March this year. However, we need to put time limits in place for everything, including approvals and the whole lot, because otherwise it creates bad habits. Something else became very apparent when I asked a few questions. The gross capital profile for the first three months of the year was €12 million, of which the Department only spent €4 million. The Department had expected to spend €7.587 million on town and village renewal, but only €647,000 was spent. The Department is giving the money but they are not delivering and we seem to be going the same merry way all the time. We cannot get the money on the ground to benefit people and there seems to be no urgency out there. It is not for me to tell the Minister his business, but the time has come to make an example that the people's money cannot be messed around with. If approvals and money are given, it should either be spent or given back and provided to someone who will spend it.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is quite correct that some of the local authorities have failed again. Some, such as Carlow and Cavan, spent 100%. I will not go through every county in the list, but it goes down to Donegal which spent 8% of the funding provided to it for the town and village renewal scheme. We do not want to penalise the local authorities which performed and delivered and we need to deal with the others. In relation to the town and village scheme, I have to take some of the blame myself, to be fair, on the basis that I did not get it out in time last year. However, I got it out which I was anxious to do. We always said it would be a 15-month scheme. Deputy Ó Cuív is correct that we hoped to reach €7.5 million. In April, the spend has increased to €1.8 million. We hope it will be close to €2.5 million by the end of the month. The spending is beginning to happen now. It is happening in other areas of the scheme. Local authorities are beginning to spend the money because they know they gave a commitment to do it. We have to give them a bit of latitude given the weather. The Deputy is correct that I will have to make decisions. I will make those decisions. The Deputy knows what is annoying here because he was in this job before. Local authorities and local authority members up and down the country cry out for funding, but when one provides it, they cannot deliver. I will give them some leeway on the town and village renewal scheme because we always said it would be a 15-month scheme. They must now ensure it starts to rev up again this year so that when the scheme is announced again, it continues over the next number of years.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask about CLÁR. The Department has carried out a limited number of actions under CLÁR, which I welcome. It is time now, however, to start to widen its scope. It has fantastic potential. In that regard, I mention two ideas which I know are feasible. The first is a good scheme because it leverages money. I refer to the group water scheme top-up grant. The number of houses which are not on a good and properly regulated group water scheme or on a mains scheme is small. However, these houses do exist in clusters which are dependent on wells of variable quality. There was huge demand for the top-up scheme before and we were getting close to dealing with this. A lot of schemes were nearly ready to go. This is a slow burner because, no more than anything else, it will not break the bank this year. If the Minister approved the money this year, it would not be spent until next year. Will the Minister consider re-instituting that scheme this year to achieve a target of giving everybody in the country, within reason, access to running water at a reasonable cost from either a group scheme or a mains supply? There are not many houses which are five miles away from any other house but I would accept that such houses might not be included. The top-up scheme proved very effective at delivering that in the past.

The Minister, the Minister of State and the Chairman will all agree about the following. We have fought for many years to do something on the western rail corridor. Part of the corridor between Athenry to Claremorris is in the CLÁR area. In the context of leveraging funds, I note that nothing galvanises State agencies to take action like throwing a few bob on the table to match their funding. I understand the cost of doing the route from Athenry to Claremorris is approximately €70 million or €80 million, which is small beer in the context of the billions spent on roads, the Luas and the metro. Will the Minister consider throwing a few bob on the table under CLÁR and rural development to put it up to those agencies? Fáilte Ireland might meet the Minister about "The Quiet Man" station. We could put historic trains on there to bring tourists down to re-enact John Wayne's role.

This would provide a commuter line to Galway also. The Minister represents Mayo while the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, and I represent Galway. Can the Minister imagine if the train were not to stop at Manulla but continued on to Claremorris, Athenry and Galway to pick up people coming from Westport and Castlebar who wanted to go to Galway? They could be picked up in either Manulla or Claremorris. It would mean a proper integrated service in the west, in particular a commuter service into Galway which is going to have 40,000 to 50,000 extra people living there in the next 20 years. I have often pointed out that the Harcourt Street line closed in 1959 and was sold. Everybody said there was no population in Dundrum or Cherrywood and it would never be viable. Within ten years or 20 years at the very outside, which was 1979, there was massive regret that it had been sold. By 1989, the regret was so great, they had to go back and buy everything again at enormous cost to put back the railway line.

The Minister can make this happen. He has the will, the way and the money. It would be a strategic project for which he would be forever remembered. If we had a proper commuter service coming into Galway, which is to say arriving and leaving at the right times, I am convinced we would get very good patronage on the line. Athenry to Galway has already proved that. There would also be freight trains from Ballina to Foynes, Cork and Waterford without having to travel along all the railway lines on the east coast. Those are two ideas for the Minister today and I would like to hear a response. It is time the Minister with responsibility for rural development showed us something. He is a year in the senior job. I accept that he is in a much better position on issues like this now. Will he at least consider what I say? I have discussed matters with Bord Fáilte previously and have no doubt that if the Minister did a bit, it would do a bit too. It would then be very hard for the big boys in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and Iarnród Éireann to say no.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There are two good ideas here. I am giving serious consideration to one in circumstances where I have deputations every day on group water schemes. The Deputy is quite correct that a lot of these schemes were ready to go before the crash which did not then go ahead. On costs and the local contributions, Deputy Ó Cuív brought that scheme in a number of years ago. As such, there are a number of group water schemes which would not have been developed but for it. I have to look at water schemes and I have to look at small group sewerage schemes also. Because these schemes involve small numbers of people, the local contribution is a big one for them.

It is a big contribution but towns and cities do not have to make an overall contribution. The Deputy is right to suggest that I should start considering creating a scheme now that can roll on for the next few years because it will be a slow burner. It takes a while for group water schemes to get started. Some schemes await funding from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment but they also need a bit of help with a top-up. The suggestion made by the Deputy is good and I will give it consideration.

The other scheme is bigger. The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport would have to consider it and start the ball rolling. As Deputies will know, the rural regeneration scheme is coming. My Department is having discussions with the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. We are analysing schemes such as the Leader programme as mentioned and try to learn from them. In terms of the western rail corridor, if the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, county councils and other State agencies are prepared to provide funding then, as Minister, I would consider the project. The lead Department is the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Technically, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport is the lead Department and Deputy Ring is the Minister for Rural and Community Development. As he knows, if the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport knew his Department was putting money on the table it would put it up to that Department to be a lead Department and not one that just says "no". In my view, certainty about money would greatly encourage the Department just as European money used to act as a leverage. One of the initial hallmarks of CLÁR was leverage. In other words, for every €5 million that was spent one hoped to leverage another €10 million or €15 million. The Group R scheme is an obvious one because for every €1 spent one probably receives five times that sum from the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport can choose to say "no". The Minister for Rural and Community Development could make an offer that if the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport agreed, his Department would be willing to pay its share. I suggest €7 million a year over three years of unspent Leader funding would make a very significant input. I have no doubt that Fáilte Ireland would be interested in promoting tourism related to the film "The Quiet Man". The Ballyglunin railway station is an obvious project for the west. Such development would enable tourists to travel by steam train, for example, to the film set and allow them to re-enact famous scenes portrayed by Maureen O'Hara and John Wayne. The project would be similar to what is available in Dunbrody, County Wexford. The project would attract every child in the country and adults could pretend they were only going to please their children. I definitely think the Minister could get poly-funding for the project; he is the man to make it happen.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport does not have much of a record for matching the funding that I have put in place and it is not for the want of my asking. I refer to the local improvement scheme, LIS.

Deputy Ó Cuív is a former Minister for my Department and he is right about leverage. I will outline what I have seen happen with the CLÁR programme, the rural recreation programme and some other programmes. The minute my Department directly funds a scheme the other Departments walk away. As has been said, my office is almost a year old and it will be a year old in June. I now have a good functioning Department and a team in place. As Deputy Ó Cuív will know, it takes a while and a lot of work to establish a new Department. My officials and I have done a tremendous job in one year to get all of the schemes up and running last year. I remind members that we had a small number of staff, programmes were thrown on top of us and we had no Department or offices. In less than a year we have a new team in place comprised of many fine people and we have a new director general. For the first time my Department is functioning very well. I must now start considering the schemes that have been mentioned.

As Deputy Ó Cuív will know having been Minister, I do not want the situation to continue where when my Department funds schemes that other Departments such as the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport walk away from. Every other Department walks away the minute my Department directly funds schemes. My officials must sit down with officials from all of the other Departments and ask them what they are prepared to do with rural schemes, what funding will they put in place and what can my Department do to match their funds. I do not want my Department to do their jobs and for the other Departments to use up my Department's budget but not contribute financially.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the national rural development schemes, I am thinking about CLÁR and the existing walkways and tourism initiatives. I know some work has been done in different parts of the country. An excellent walkway has been built around a lake in Drumshambo, Country Leitrim. Another project in north Leitrim seeks funding to build a greenway. A number of projects in different places await funding. There seems to be a slowness in moving the projects forward as quickly as needed. Can the Minister ensure these projects will be progressed as quickly as possible?

I agree with what Deputy Ó Cuív has said about the western rail corridor. The project can act as a beacon to emphasise that rural Ireland is coming back to life. I would like everything that can be done to be done. As the Minister for Rural and Community Development will know, the big problem for a vast majority of rural Ireland is rural depopulation, decline and people feeling there is no future for them, which we must change. As I have said many times, the sense of future is really what it is all about. People want to feel that they have a stake in the place. Very often people have discovered that what existed in the past has dwindled away. I live in the parish of Aughavas, County Leitrim. The local national school has started a programme to encourage new families to move to the area because only three children will start national school next year and just one the year after. If such decline in the number of children living in the area continues then the three teacher school will close in five or ten years time.

No one is moving to the area because there is little or no employment available and, therefore, no sense of a future. That is the big issue that we need to change. People can live in rural areas but work 30 miles away. That is a short commute compared with being stuck in traffic while going to work in cities. People have a better lifestyle, etc. when they live in rural areas. The advantages of rural Ireland will only be known to people when we start doing stuff that people can see and proves that the Government and society believe in rural Ireland again. I accept that the Minister and his colleagues believe in having a thriving rural Ireland. In order for rural Ireland to survive and thrive we need big flagship projects such as the development of the western rail corridor. Such projects would provide the Government is serious about investing in rural Ireland.

Group water schemes were mentioned. I wish to mention group sewerage schemes as they are very important. In many parts of the country people live within a mile or so of local towns in close proximity and there is great pressure placed on them to have septic tanks. If an adequate scheme was put in place to provide funding it would be a huge help to the people who live in such areas. The current scheme is very poor and hard to access.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, Deputy Martin Kenny attended many of launches of our projects. One of the flagship projects that I always talk about is the one in Drumshanbo. I have talked to community leaders and business people, as I am sure the Deputy has done, about Drumshanbo Gunpowder Gin.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, plus the food hub.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Waterways Ireland built the walkway with funding of €700,000 from my Department. We continued the project into Leitrim village and on to Carrick-on-Shannon. Another €1 million has been allocated for the latest connection. It is incredible what the project has done for the county and other examples can be found in Longford, Lubgate in Skibbereen, County Cork and Offaly. Small amounts of funding reap great benefits through, for example, the town and village regeneration programme, the CLÁR programme and rural recreation programme.

I happened to be in Achill when I was at home at the weekend. Funding has been received to extend the greenway into Achill. Businesses all over the country have been lifted. There is no doubt that the effects of the schemes we have introduced over the past two years are now beginning to be seen. It is possible to see what has been built and what is in action under these schemes, just as it is under the Leader programme. Projects like the food hub in Drumshanbo, which was mentioned by Deputy Kenny, are creating jobs and adding to confidence in the environment.

Some communities are great at getting funding under various schemes, including CLÁR, the town and village scheme and the rural environment programme. We have to think about the villages as well as the towns. Small funding gives a big lift to villages. Bigger amounts of money give a lift to cities and towns. We have to make sure there is an even spread. We try to look after the smaller places. I am pleased with the schemes we have introduced and the jobs that have been created. I am pleased with the goodwill that exists now. At last, communities feel that the Government is beginning to give them a bit of support. The introduction of certain schemes is a sign that the Government is listening to them. We hope that when the rural regeneration scheme is announced, we will be able to announce a few flagship projects that people will come in and tender for. We hope the scheme will be announced in July. All of my schemes will be up and running then. As I have said, the CLÁR programme is already up and running and will be closing next week. The local improvement scheme has been done. The town and village scheme will be opened on Friday. The rural recreation scheme will be open shortly.

I am happy with the schemes and with the funding we have allocated and spread throughout the country. I am happy that jobs are being created. I want to see money being spent. It gives me great pleasure and it is a source of great job satisfaction to see a new vibrancy in rural communities that have not had much confidence for a while. While it is good that people are becoming aware that grant aid can be drawn down to avail of the opportunities that exist, it is not all about grant aid - it is also about people being committed to the projects in which they are involved. I have seen what people in fine communities throughout the country have done after receiving small amounts of funding from the State. In some cases, those people have raised their own funds or borrowed money. Their projects are up and running. Some of the people in question have availed of the social inclusion and community activation programme, the community activation programme, the town and village scheme or the rural recreation scheme. I am pleased to have seen this in County Leitrim. When there is a return on the funding that is spent, it gives people a bit of hope. That is what it is about.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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All of that is excellent and needs to happen, but the point I am making relates to a difficulty we have with tourism projects that make a significant difference in many places. Someone said to me recently that a lot of this stuff is for the benefit of people who make their money somewhere else and come to spend it in our local areas. We need stuff that allows people to make their money in our local areas. There needs to be a productive economy in rural Ireland. It should not just be a recreational economy. That is one of the things that have been missing. The Minister mentioned the food hub in Drumshanbo, which is an absolutely excellent project that has made a huge difference to the town. Almost 100 people are working in the hub at the moment. We need more of that. A man told me last week that he had been speaking to a food company in the Far East that supplies major hotels in that part of the world. The company in question is unable to get enough of artisan Irish food like cheese that has a story to it. The food hub in Drumshanbo is producing the kind of niche products that we need to try to bring into the mainstream to a certain extent. Such initiatives can bring life back into rural Ireland. The Department of Rural and Community Development has an opportunity to start to work on this. One of the problems we have had with successive Governments - I am not blaming the current Government, in particular - is that every Department and every part of the Civil Service seeks to push things along to be done somewhere else. The Minister for Rural and Community Development has an opportunity to be the person who does not push this issue somewhere else. He should pull it all in and say we want this to happen in rural Ireland. As Deputy Ó Cuív said, we want to leverage money from somewhere else. If we are to make that happen, the Department of Rural and Community Development will have to put up the first challenge to everywhere else to come on board with it.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is correct. That is what we are trying to address. He is right when he speaks about depopulation. That is why we have the national plan and the capital plan. That is why the rural regeneration scheme is in place. This is about targeting communities. It does not have to be the councils. We hope community groups, State agencies, chambers of commerce and people will come together if they feel they have a scheme that is worthy of being funded under this plan. That is what we are looking for now. As I have said, the rural regeneration scheme will be up and running in July. We hope to make the allocations sometime before the end of the year. There will be a drawdown from that scheme early next year. I am confident that what we are proposing will try to address some of the depopulation we have all over the country. As we said earlier, that is what the Leader programme is about. We need to get the €250 million that is available under that programme down rural areas to create jobs and do exactly what Deputy Kenny is talking about. We have the food hubs and the digital hubs. The creation of employment is what this is about.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should not get me started on the digital hubs, given that the lack of broadband is a huge problem. It is the elephant in the room for rural Ireland.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It is patchwork. There is a bit of broadband here and there. We are waiting to see how the gaps will be filled. It is really frustrating.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know that. When I was in Boston recently, I was told it is the most modern city in the world. It has big problems such as unemployment and traffic congestion, just like Dublin does. When one travels a mile outside Boston, there is no broadband. The mayor told me that it is a big issue. It is a big issue all over the world. Up to 71% of rural Ireland is now going to have broadband. A scheme that is supposed to get up and running in the coming months will continue the process of getting as much of rural Ireland as possible covered by broadband. The Deputy is quite correct when he says we need infrastructure like broadband to be rolled out. We are trying to roll it out. To be honest, I would have said myself that it is not happening. I live in a place that does not have broadband. I will have it in a month's time, not because I am there but simply because it is in the plan and covered by the map. It annoys me that in places where I do not live, the people who came down the roads did one side of the road because it was covered by the map. They could have done the other side of the road as well if they were allowed to do so, but they were not. At least it is happening. I see it on the ground every single day. People have been connected to broadband every minute we have spent talking in here. As I have said, when I was in Boston, the biggest issue was that there is no broadband when one travels a mile outside the city.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to ask a question about rural recreation. I cannot let it go. I notice that Comhairle na Tuaithe had just one meeting last year. A report has been done on it. It is meant to be revised, upgraded or updated. When it was set up, the main issue was access to the hills. Two pilot projects that have been in place since 2009 or 2010 were meant to indicate whether the needs of hill walkers would be satisfied if enough hills were opened in a structured and organised way. There is no need to open all the hills. If 60% or 70% of hills are open, and if people knew which hills are open, car parks can be created and gates and stiles can be provided so that there is no need to go over fences. When does the Minister think he can get the liability or insurance issue, which has been the big hold-up in this regard, put to bed? It is only a contingency issue. The Supreme Court has ruled again and again that there is no liability if one slips on a rock on a mountain. The only risk to farmers in such circumstances, bearing in mind that their farming needs would be covered, is not the liability - it is the possibility of them being taken to court and having to spend lots of money defending themselves against cases that cannot be won. Will the Minister give us some date for the finalisation of the access issue so that all the walking does not have to be concentrated on a few paths, which can lead to hills being worn down? There needs to be wide access. We can say "good luck" to those who do not want their hills to be open because that is their right. I believe the vast majority of farming communities actually want hills to be open because they know it is a huge advantage for their families, communities, local GAA teams and all the rest.

My second question relates to the walks scheme, which again is in suspended animation. Greenways are different. When we talk about greenways, we revert to the old question of whether the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport is going to try to dump this responsibility on the Minister for Rural and Community Development. If they gave it to the Minister, and the money with it, I would be very happy.

If it retained control and the Minister's Department ended up handling greenways out of frustration, however, it would be unsatisfactory. The Minister has the walks scheme. Will he be able to extend it this year and start paying people to maintain walks? I am not referring to greenways, which have tarmacadam, but the ones across moorland and so on. The scheme is popular with farmers, provides a great service and is win-win all the way.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will take the easy question first, that of the walks scheme. Actually, it is not easy, but it is one of the better schemes that the Deputy set up and it has worked well. We have 39 trails and 1,905 farmers involved in the scheme, costing the taxpayer €1.8 million per year. I told the Deputy during our previous Dáil Question Time that I was hoping to get more walks included in the scheme by the end of this year. I am committed to doing that. I will have to provide funding for payments in next year's budget.

As to this year's payments, I will need to consider ways and means of increasing the number of walks. I want to do that because, although the money involved is small, it supports those farmers who have been supportive of the scheme and it has worked well. I have made clear to my departmental officials that I do not want the scheme to be complicated in any way. How it works should remain simple. I need to identify and implement a process to get more walks involved. I intend to have a number of walks selected by the end of the year and have them in payment for next year. I will honour the commitment that I made to the Dáil in that regard. I have made clear to my officials that I want this done, and it will be done between now and the end of the year.

The Deputy's first question is more difficult. When I held a meeting with the IFA today, that scheme was one of the issues raised. The IFA has great concerns about it. Deputy Ó Cuív and other Deputies have been raising it with me for a long time. The Department is considering ways and means. The Deputy is aware that the previous Department I happened to be in dealt with a court case involving the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and something that occurred on a mountain. It is wonderful that the State won the case on appeal. Otherwise, it would have had serious consequences for walks, trails, etc.

We need to consider this scheme. Alongside my legal advisers, officials in my Department are working to determine whether anything can be done with it. The Deputy was correct in how he outlined the situation. If landowners or farmers are allowing people onto their land, why should they have to hire solicitors and barristers if a case goes to court, possibly even the High Court? The State will have to play its part. We are considering this matter and I am waiting on that advice. I am working on it because this issue has been ongoing for a long time and it needs to be addressed.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Before we conclude on this subhead, which covers rural recreation, CLÁR, the walks scheme and the town and village renewal scheme, my experience in County Clare has been favourable and I have seen the transformative effect that these schemes have on local rural areas. As the Minister will be aware, Clare County Council set up a rural strategy, which he launched, that the council developed in conjunction with various stakeholders. It is fantastic. I happened to visit the council and meet its director of rural development, Mr. Leonard Cleary, who is doing a wonderful job, to discuss CLÁR. We in Clare have been allowed 15 new projects, with 60 on the books. If the Minister could give a few extra euro to County Clare, we would welcome it.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would have no problem with that.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Community groups are better prepared these days. That the Minister is opening schemes earlier in the year is positive and to be welcomed. He stated that he would open the rural recreation and town and village renewal schemes at the end of this week. I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív about trying to broaden CLÁR. Perhaps the Minister could engage in a consultation process with the public and community groups on how to broaden CLÁR, group sewerage schemes and group water schemes. For example, someone contacted me this week who had an issue with crossing cattle over a road. The road is not a new development, so he is not eligible for funding. If it were a new road, he would have been provided with an underpass. If those cattle did not have to be on that road every day, the potential for an accident would be reduced. Surely something like that should be eligible for CLÁR funding.

I compliment the Minister on forming his Department and on putting these schemes together and announcing them earlier in the year.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the rural recreation officer in the Chairman's county, I must be fair and say that the underspend and pre-spend that we gave to County Clare's schemes have all been spent. This shows that, where schemes have staff in place and are committed to rural development, the system works. The Chairman might compliment his council, as its schemes have spent 100% of the pre-funding that they received in 2016.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Banner is leading the way as usual.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Again.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is kept under pressure, too. I guarantee that. That concludes our discussion on this subhead. The remaining elements of subhead A, including the town and village renewal scheme, have been discussed. We are finished-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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May I-----

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Is there an issue with the wider subgroup?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I will discuss the dormant accounts issue later. The Minister has €1 million for broadband. While broadband is not within his Department's remit, it and roads are the greatest issues in rural Ireland. Some people are getting broadband while others are not. What has been done by Eir is fantastic. For those who have it, 1 Gbps makes them internationally competitive. I met a manufacturer after he had acquired 1 Gbps broadband. When he told me that there was only one snag, I threw my eyes to heaven and wondered what it was now, but his only problem was that his customers on the much more populated island across the water could not match what he had. I asked him was it not a great thing to be able to say that, at the back of the mountain, he had 1 Gbps and they were relying on a lot less.

Where this broadband is provided, it is fantastic, but it is driving the 30% of people who are half a mile, 1 mile, 3 miles, 5 miles or 8 miles away mad. Will the Minister give me a small guarantee today, namely, that we will adopt without messing the same policy to broadband that we adopted to electricity and telephones when they were introduced and that, unlike what happened with water, it will be provided to every house and business in the country? Fibre is cheaper to roll out than copper. Let us go for bust and be the first country in the world that decides that every house without exception must be connected to fibre.

There is a misunderstanding. The Minister knows Keel on Achill Island much better than I do. When the Web Summit came to Ireland, those high worth individuals stayed in Keel for the weekend to get the cobwebs out of their heads after all of the hard business in Dublin. They did all sorts of mad things like kite sailing on the worst October day. When high net worth individuals like that and who are into extreme sports go away, a place like Achill is ideal in the sense that it has cliffs, wild seas, surfing, kite surfing, cycling around the island, which these ones did, and so on.

They want the really rugged, hard stuff, but they also want one other thing in those very isolated but very attractive places and that is world-class broadband. They will stay the extra few days if they have New York broadband at the back of the mountain in Keel. If it is not there, they will get the hell out as fast as they can. While broadband is of paramount importance for local people, it is also paramount to attract the high net worth individuals who need constant contact to these places. They tend to gravitate to west Sligo, to the Achill's of this world. There are so many good reasons to connect every house, and the more isolated it is, the more important that is, both to the local and to the visitor. Will the Minister promise that he will make sure that the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Naughten, will connect every house? I hope there will be no talk of reaching 90% because 90% of the country leaves out 30% of those who live in rural Ireland because there are so many people in the cities. Will the Minister promise that it will be all houses and businesses, with no exceptions?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will hand over to the expert on broadband, the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know about that. I agree that it is very important that we get 100% geographical coverage in terms of broadband, and I have highlighted that on all occasions possible. The Government is committed under the national broadband plan to 100% coverage. Deputy Ó Cuív knows the issues and the difficulties that have arisen with regard to that plan. We are still in a competitive process and expect contracts to be signed this autumn to allow that to be rolled out. I fully accept what the Deputy has said about Achill Island. I am sure he has seen the wonderful plan produced by the community in Achill recently, through Mayo County Council. It is a wonderful example of a bottom-up approach by a community regarding strategic goals and next steps, and it also lists the organisations and agencies that it is hoped will implement the plan.

In terms of the subhead, €2 million is available to promote the roll-out of the national broadband plan and the implementation of the recommendations of the mobile phone and broadband task force. We support the broadband officers that are in place in every local authority at a cost of just over €1 million. We also support the development of local digital strategies by local authorities, which is expected to cost €100,000. The tender for environmental assessments of applications relating to the roll-out of the national broadband plan was €125,000. The subhead also refers to supporting the roll-out of telecommunications infrastructure through targeted interventions consistent with the final report of the mobile phone and broadband task force. In that context, one of the areas we are looking at is the mapping of mobile phone blackspots throughout the country. A number of such blackspots have been identified, as one might expect, in the Connemara area in the constituency represented by me and Deputy Ó Cuív. We are looking at the possibility of funding infrastructure through the telecommunications agencies. We are advancing that through the mobile phone and broadband task force, and that is something that will be very beneficial to rural communities. It is an issue that was raised during the negotiations to form a Government and several Deputies advocated for the task force.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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When the process started a number of years ago, 30 Mbps was considered adequate. Now, anybody who has fibre gets well in excess of 100 Mbps and that is adequate for today. One would hope that we do not get the tail ends all ending up with 30 Mbps which is not really modern broadband. If we are putting the money in, we might as well go the extra mile, put in the fibre and do it right.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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One of the reasons for the delays with the national broadband plan or one of the complexities of it is that the technology and the contract has to be future-proofed for the next 25 years. We need to ensure that as technologies change and speeds increase, the infrastructure put in place at the taxpayer's expense will be able to keep pace. We want to see a minimum of 30 Mbps and the availability, in most cases, of fibre-based speeds.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister and Minister of State for their presentations. They would both be familiar with the small towns in the west with populations of a few hundred people. Williamstown and Glenamaddy would be examples of what I mean by a small town. Could we bring in a new initiative under the Tidy Towns competition so that those who paint the front of their houses, for example, could claim back the VAT? I know it cannot be taken off at the beginning under EU rules but we should give some incentive to people. In fairness to the Minister of State, Deputy English, he has promoted the living over the shop initiative, trying to get people into small towns. However, that has not progressed. When one phones local authorities, one finds that it is sitting there, as it were, and there is no direction. We are left in a quagmire. If we are serious about revitalising rural Ireland, we need to make sure that we give incentives. Perhaps the Minister for Rural and Community Development could speak to the Minister for Finance about the possibility of introducing tax incentives, particularly in the context of the current housing problem, to encourage people to come back to live in small towns, thus revitalising them. Incentives may help with that. Generally when the middle sized towns are competing with the smaller ones for the same money, there can be a bit of a problem. Is there anything that we could do for towns with fewer than 500 people in them? I am talking about small villages really. Is there anything that the Department could do to kick-start such villages, perhaps through the Tidy Towns structure? Could something be given to those who do up the shopfront or the house front to give it a lift? A lot of the smaller tidy towns committees are doing Trojan work but they are battling with the bigger towns. I do not want to cause a split between different sized towns but I would ask that the Department would give the smaller ones a good leg up. Generally when local authorities get involved in revitalisation, they pick one or two areas on which they will spend €250,000. The Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, would be familiar with that in Galway and the municipal districts structure. It is a good thing. I am not saying anything against it but it is the bigger sized towns that get the money and the smaller towns and villages are struggling a bit.

In the context of CLÁR, some of the smaller towns and villages have built a community centre outside of the 50 km zone. There would be applications going into the Department of Rural and Community Development to lay a footpath up to such centres over a five-year period but some of the local authorities are kicking up and insisting that footpaths must be inside the 50 km area. Some people have been ambitious and have built a funeral home beside a community centre to incorporate different things. There might be a school in the village but the community centre or the football pitch might be up the road and teachers have to try to get children up there safely during the day or there might be a crèche at the community centre. I would ask the Department to have an open mind with regard to applications for funding for footpaths in such circumstances.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Fitzmaurice has raised these issues with me previously. Regarding the Tidy Towns competition, I cannot let this opportunity pass without complimenting everybody involved. This year is the 60th anniversary of the Tidy Towns competition, and what that competition does for small towns and villages, as well as big towns and cities is a credit to everyone involved. We do not thank them enough. We sometimes hear criticism of the committees, their work and the role that they play, but I cannot praise them enough. I have never met such dedicated people, whether they are in Roscommon, Mayo, Kerry or Cork.

It does not matter because they are committed to what they do, which is why at the end of last year I provided €1.4 million for Tidy Towns committees around the country. I gave them all a grant. I distinguished between villages, towns and cities but they were all delighted with the grants they got. It was only an expression of thanks and appreciation for the work they did. The money went on projects for this year, which is the 60th anniversary. I hope GAA, soccer, rugby and athletic clubs, the IFA and all communities will make a special effort this year for the Tidy Towns and clean up rural and urban Ireland for the 60th anniversary. It is terrible that as we are doing this, there are people dumping every minute of the day.

On the issue the Deputy raised, I was in east Galway recently. The town and village scheme gave a place called Woodford €70,000 to do exactly what the Deputy is talking about. The Deputy is right. It got €70,000. The footpaths had not been done in about 40 years. It gave a lift to the town. This year, the people there tell me they want to do the other side. It has given a lift to the community. They see progress and are delighted to see that at last there is a scheme that helps and supports them.

We are looking at the other issue the Deputy raised but it is not easy. I am being honest with the Deputy. We are looking at a pilot scheme to encourage residents to occupy properties they have. There are small towns where there were businesses in the past but as a result of the Internet and the way business has grown, shops are closing. We try to encourage people to go back to live in towns and villages. We are looking at a pilot scheme. My officials have had lots of discussions with the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and other Departments, including the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We are trying to bring in a pilot scheme to give people a grant to do up their properties. The scheme is not in place yet but its purpose would be to encourage people to go back and live in villages and towns and to repopulate small villages and small towns. We want to get that scheme running with the town and village scheme. I reiterate it is called the town and village scheme because sometimes, we forget about the villages. The Deputy is quite correct that the smaller areas need a small bit of support and a bit of a lift. That is why in the last round of these projects I asked councils to concentrate on towns and villages, particularly the smaller towns as opposed to the bigger ones, to give them an opportunity to advance and get some funding from these schemes. It has worked very well. We probably need more funding, which is something I need to discuss with Government to try to get money for these schemes because they are working well. I would love to see the pilot scheme up and running. I would love to pilot it around the country to see what effect it would have on small villages and small towns. It is something I am working on with my officials and the Departments of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and Public Expenditure and Reform to try to get it over the line. We want to put a scheme in place that will not complicate anything. We are working on it. I would like to see it happening.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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On the issue of town and village renewal, there was a scheme for people who had a derelict house in a town and they could get €40,000 from the council to do it up. They had to rent the houses back to the local authority. The Minister of that Department at the time, Deputy Humphreys, had a scheme like that. It did not work because nobody took it up.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There had to be a housing need.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There had to be a housing need in the area. It seemed to miss the point. The lesson was that some investment has to be put in. We need a grant where we tell people we will give them a 45% or 55% grant to do up the house. It has to be a grant of over 55% for a person to be able to borrow the rest and to be able to foresee getting the money back at some stage. If we do that, a person will spend €40,000 doing up a house. If the person has a grant of about €25,000, within three months, between VAT, excise duty and income tax returns on the workers who do the work on the house, the Government will probably get most of the grant back. The money goes back in again and that is before ever talking about the spin-off arising from the activity in the community. There must be an acknowledgment somewhere that we are not spending money in rural Ireland but are investing money on which we get a return.

I know many rural villages. I live near Cloone in County Leitrim. It is a small village where the post office closed a few years ago. There is very little there but there is huge potential. I live in a rural parish called Aghavas where about 600 people live in rural scattered houses. There is no town or village. Next door to it is Gortletteragh which is the very same; there is no town or village. Half the parishes in County Leitrim are probably like that. There is no town or village. We have a huge problem with rural planning where people cannot get planning permission. If they want to go home and live in their local area they cannot get planning. I acknowledge that is not the Minister's problem.

I will address the local improvement scheme, LIS, for people living in rural areas. Many cul-de-sac roads have been taken off the list for some reason or other. They are no longer local authority roads, which they had been years ago. The only way in which people can get work done on their road now is through an LIS, in which they would have to put up some of the money themselves. In County Leitrim, there has been a long list of over 200 and good work was done last year in getting money for it. Money has been put down. I see €10 million here on the list for it this year. We need to get a lot more money put into it. It comes back to the idea of investment. When there is investment in a rural area, people feel valued. That is what needs to happen here. While the money that is there for it is welcome, it is not nearly enough. That is the point. I am sure the Minister and Minister of State will acknowledge it is not enough to cover the number of small country roads that are in that situation. Many of them lead to a couple of houses up a lane where, for example, there are elderly people living who cannot get home help in. There are a whole lot of issues that will be affected. A small bit of investment could make a big difference. Originally the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport was supposed to provide this money and it did not do so. I welcome that it is coming from somewhere. It is not nearly enough for the under-investment over the past seven, eight or ten years.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin Kenny raised the issue of the €40,000 grant. It is the responsibility of the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. The proof that any scheme is working is that there is a major drawdown. That is why I am looking at this pilot scheme. There is no point in bringing in any scheme if it is unworkable. That is why I am looking at this pilot scheme in an effort to target precisely what Deputy Martin Kenny is talking about. Its purpose is to give a substantial grant to see if a family or family member will go and live in a house. We will come back with more detail on that scheme. I am working with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government on it. It is something I am looking at. If we are going to bring in a pilot scheme, it has to be dealt with in a way that it is not too difficult to draw down from the scheme. The people who are making the application need to be able to match whatever funding is needed. It is something we are looking at.

The Deputy talked about the LIS and I am glad he raised it because I need to put a few things on the record. I am annoyed with some of the local authorities and local authority members around the country. I wish to make clear that I do not pick the schemes for the LIS. I am the person who brought back the scheme. This Department provided the funding for the scheme. We do not pick the roads. I resent some of the remarks from members of Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and Fine Gael that I am the one who picked the roads because I did not. We wrote to local authorities and we asked them to send us a list of the schemes in order that we could put them up on the website to make sure the schemes are done. It is a safety mechanism for the schemes. The councils select them. I saw a letter in the paper yesterday commenting on Meath. Meath had only eight roads. Meath County Council got €359,000. What I did with the scheme was that every local authority, big or small, got at least €250,000. That was the smallest amount they could get and €1 million was the biggest amount they could get. We only had €10 million. I did not pick any of the schemes. There has been no change in the scheme since 2002. I did not make one change in the scheme. It was the same scheme and operated in the same way. I did not interfere with it in any way.

I resent the remarks from people to the effect that I picked them. Those people do not have the courage or guts to talk to officials in their own councils who make the decisions. I did not change the rules in any way. I am glad the scheme is up and running in Deputy Kenny's county and that the council there decided on 11 roads on the basis of the €250,000 allocation.

Again, a newspaper made a comparison between Mayo getting so many roads and other counties. It was not about the roads; it was about the funding. The council in Mayo got €855,000. The council in Cork got €1 million. Donegal County Council was allocated €884,000 but did not confine the list. The council sent in a list amounting to €70 million and wanted the Department to pick the schemes. We are not picking the schemes. The council has received a letter and if it does not prioritise its roads in the next two weeks, I will reallocate that money later on in the year to the local authorities. I am not picking the roads and I will not pick the roads. That is not my job nor is it the job of the Department. We have no hand, act or part in respect of the roads - I am keen to put that on the record. It is a matter for the local authorities. I did not change the scheme from what was in place in the past. Whatever way the scheme operated in the past is the way it is operating now.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I was on the local authority in Leitrim for many years. The way it worked in Leitrim was that if one person applied to get a road done and was number ten and the next person who applied was down as number 11, then the person who was number ten came up on the list first and that person got the road done first. There was strict order. A person had to be living on the road or there had to be at least two landowners.

That was the scheme we ran in the council. We were lobbied from all over the place. People said their roads were worse than others and so on. We decided the scheme was fair and that if a person got an application in first, it would go to that person first. If a person could provide matched funding, the works would go ahead; if not, the person would be left off until next year.

In fairness, it was a good scheme and it worked well for many years. The only problem I have with the scheme is that there is not enough money for it. I am not saying the Minister or anyone in his Department picks the roads. The local authorities pick the roads and it is up to the local authorities to do that fairly. I believe in most cases they have done it fairly.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am keen to try to bring this to a conclusion. We are two hours into the meeting. I propose that we take a break after we conclude this discussion.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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In fairness, it is not the Minister or anyone else who said it is wrong. The scheme works if a person puts in an application and has the money. Some people could be on the list but when the money is to be collected, the person might not have it and the allocation goes to the next person on the list. That is the way it works.

In fairness to the council, it will look at all the different roads. Let us suppose there are three or four houses on a road with potholes everywhere and further down the road a farmer is going up with a tractor to three or four fields. Obviously, the stretch where the houses are situated will be done first. That is common sense.

The councils send in lists to the Department. In fairness, it is a good scheme. However, one thing is needed. In Galway, probably 200 roads are under the scheme at the moment. We are getting 15 roads done in this round. Can the Minister envisage that there might be a little more in the kitty towards the back end of the year, perhaps in July or August? Would it be possible to put a further €10 million into the scheme? I know that in Galway and in the Minister's county - this applies in particular in the west of Ireland - we have many small boreens that are not council roads. Can the Minister facilitate something for them in that way?

Deputy Ó Cuív and myself have just spoken about something else for the Department to consider. Can the Department get onto the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government? In some of the smaller villages there are unfinished estates. At the time of the bust there were no bonds. I know a certain amount of money is going from the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. Can we speed up the last of that allocation? It would help the tidy towns and, as the Minister rightly pointed out, they are doing Trojan work.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept that we need further funding and I am looking at it. If there are any savings in the Department between now and the end of the year, this is one of the priorities I have. I am keen to introduce a little more funding for the local improvement scheme. To be fair, Deputy Fitzmaurice's county got €370,290 and undertook 56 roads on the Roscommon side.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have two counties to look after.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There are 27 roads in the Galway area.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Galway got €1 million

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Galway got €942,000 for 27 roads.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There is an explanation for that. In the case of some of the roads in Connemara, the distances and the costs are far greater because the works involve going through granite. Some of those roads are quite long. One road was done on the way to Leitir Fir. It is a long road. I had it done for the first time ever many years ago. It needed to be done again. Some of these roads are very expensive. How is the Minister going to leave a family or two or three families who have been living there for three or four generations without access to the house?

I think the Minister has a point. Unless a council can prove absolute justification it might not be a bad idea to put an average maximum cost on a scheme. There is a temptation in some county councils to subvent other roads purposes by putting up the unit price. It would be worthwhile thinking about saying to council councils that unless there are exceptional circumstances they will not get a grant of more than X euro per linear metre. All the roads are approximately 11 ft. or 3 m wide. There is something of a temptation in some county councils to be generous with the prices because the general labour bill of the county councils is being aided by the scheme.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Cuív has raised a valid point. I have already asked my officials to investigate it. Some local authorities are charging a 12.5% fee for each square metre. In some local authorities, the figure can be €13 per square metre and it can be €14 in others. In my local authority the charge is €20 per square metre. The explanation given at the council meeting was that it was for administration costs. I need to look at that and I have asked my officials to look at it immediately. I do not want to see this happening with the funding. What I will do, and I really mean this, if I have time is look at other agencies in respect of delivering the local improvement scheme. It is not a big job for others to make an application or for householders to get quotes from private contractors and do the jobs themselves. I have seen this happening in other local authorities and I will certainly look at it.

I am keen to put on record that since last September our new Department has put €27 million into the local improvement scheme. A total of 1,100 roads will be done when this funding is spent. It is a good record. I have put it to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on numerous occasions that if that Department matched my €27.5 million we would have 2,000 roads done. I am doing my part under the local improvement scheme and I will continue to do it.

Two Deputies made a point in this regard. What people forget is that people make a 15% contribution in some cases and a contribution of 10% in other cases. They make a contribution towards their roads. That is the issue raised by the Deputy. Along with the councils taking the administration fee, the councils are also getting 10% from the consumer. I need to look at this scheme, exactly as the Deputy has said, to determine what each council is getting and the cost per square metre.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I would caution against moving the scheme into the private sector. An excellent job is being done by most of the county councils. While I understand efficiencies need to be made, I think the local authorities know the roads best. They are working in these areas and should continue to do that work.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I want to bring this to a conclusion.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have no problem leaving it public but on one condition, that is, that there is a maximum per square metre limit. If we do not do that, too much temptation is put in the way of the council councils.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not saying that I am going to go private. What I am saying is that there is no reason the Leader companies could not look at it or why Údarás na Gaeltachta or some other State agency could not implement the scheme. I agree thoroughly with the Deputy. To be fair to the councils, they do an excellent job. That is not where the problem lies. It is not about the quality of work or the work they do. It is about the costings.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Most of these roads are uniform. They are all approximately the same width and cost. The best thing is to put a unit price on it.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Cuív has given me an opportunity and he is right. I am keen to clear the record. I know about Connemara and Mayo. I know how the bigger roads are done. We also have another problem in Mayo in the sense that we have a large number of smaller roads and they may only cost €2,500 or €3,000. However, people qualify for the local improvement scheme and these people are entitled to make an application. It is not a question of the number but rather the funding councils get, how they distribute it and how they want to put it into the scheme. That is a matter for the councils. There will be bigger schemes, smaller schemes and in-between schemes. The important point is that the scheme is up and running. We have put €27 million into the scheme since last September.

Some 1,100 roads will have been done when this scheme is completed. If there are any savings in the Department this year, that is one of the schemes I will be looking at.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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After what the Minister has said, can we bring in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to help him get a bit of funding out of them? I do not know if the Minister, Deputy Ross knows where rural Ireland is. It would be no harm if we got a few quid out of his Department.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have listened to the Minister, Deputy Ring, and I am seeing the action on the ground. The local improvement scheme, LIS, works.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, it does.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I compliment the Minister on reinstating it after it was discontinued in 2010. Many small byways-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I refer to it being put into the Programme for a Partnership Government.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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-----benefited. It is a wonderful scheme. There is no doubt, however, that it needs a few tweaks to improve it even more.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, it does.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We have had a healthy discussion. There is no doubt that the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport needs to step up to the plate. If we can aid the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, or Deputy Ring rather, in that way, we will.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That was a Freudian slip.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We have had a great discussion here on programme A.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There is one thing that we have not discussed and it is a big ticket item. We might discuss it briefly. I refer to the Western Development Commission, WDC, under two headings. There is a fair bit of money under the development heading. There was a time that the WDC figured in the narrative of supporting businesses in rural Ireland etc. People ask about supports and nobody seems to know of the WDC. Has the Minister, Deputy Ring, interacted with it? I refer to making it a substantial player, now that it has cash. I refer to the WDC getting into the less developed areas, getting projects off the ground and supporting them.

On a second WDC issue, now that Deputy Seán Canney is here, I will go back to something I raised earlier. There is a commitment in the national development plan to look at the western rail corridor. In any reappraisal of the western rail corridor, will it be possible to ensure that the Minister, Deputy Ross, will be persuaded that the WDC should be part of that and right at the core of any team looking at that reappraisal? I refer to the WDC being at the monitoring committee overseeing that particular reappraisal. The WDC has done much research work on development issues, population patterns, and commuting patterns. It would have a significant contribution to make. Some of us might worry about the kind of people who might be told to do that reappraisal. I have seen it happen. I refer to a big influence by those who are giving the directions.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am bringing in Deputy Canney on the WDC. I advise him that we are concluding the discussion of programme A.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I apologise for being late but I had to attend another meeting. On what Deputy Ó Cuív said in respect of the rail review, it is important that all of the stakeholders are consulted. There are numerous stakeholders one might not think of who need to be consulted on this, including the Galway Port Authority and the Foynes Port Authority. The western rail corridor needs to be looked at in light of the Brexit situation. That needs to be factored in. The working group that the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, is chairing on the Atlantic economic corridor also needs to be consulted. The terms of reference are important.

We must ensure that all of these people are consulted. Local authorities as well as the WDC and the western regional authorities all have to be consulted. It is bigger than just a railway link or putting a train on a track from Athenry to Claremorris. We have to look at the bigger picture. I hope that the Department of Rural and Community Development will have a major input into looking at and consulting on the whole process. We must look at the positive impacts it could have not just to the west of Ireland but for this whole Atlantic economic corridor that we are trying to create. At this stage, because the review will be starting soon, it is important that there is engagement between the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Department of Rural and Community Development.

It would be remiss of me not to say something about the local improvement schemes, LIS. It was a fundamental positive for the Department of Rural Development. I congratulate it. There is a stack of roads that have to be done in every county. They will not all be done in one year. The Minister, Deputy Ring, mentioned the number of roads done so far. That is so many gone off a list that was stagnant since 2010. People might not realise what it means for rural people and the connectivity it creates. We have to acknowledge that. It would be brilliant if we could get the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to do matching funds. We should engage with it on that.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will take the LIS and the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Kyne, will take the WDC. The LIS scheme is now open. We need to continue and try to get as much funding as possible. We know there is a major problem in respect of roads. There has been a major increase in the roads programme this year. We need the weather now for local authorities to start getting the work done and to identify where the real needs are in respect of roads. We have allocated €27 million to the LIS scheme for 1,100 roads. We will look at it between now and the end of the year and see if we have any further funding to put into it.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I agree in respect of the enhanced role that is necessary for the WDC. It is in the Programme for a Partnership Government and we are supportive of it. We have given it extra roles in respect of the delivery of the action plan for jobs for the west and north-west regions. It is also represented on the monitoring committee of the action plan for rural development and on the Atlantic economic corridor task force. At the last meeting, I think it was last month, in Limerick, we had a brief discussion on one of the sub-committees in respect of transport. I brought up the issue of the western rail corridor. One of the initial things I asked to be done was in a compilation of the figures for the existing line from Athenry to Limerick. I do not believe the true picture is being put out. I am looking across at three supporters of the western rail corridor.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The Minister of State can see four.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I support it.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Four supporters. I was talking about my own county. There are people, however, who have an alternative view on this. I refer to both council level and Oireachtas level. I have heard numerous people, including colleagues of my own, dismissing the existing phase of the western rail corridor as being a white elephant, a waste of money and that nobody is using it. That is totally untrue. I have asked the Atlantic economic corridor task force to look at the existing figures, to be able to put those out and give an unbiased reflection of the reality on the ground. It is a success story, something that is improving and something that has greater potential to grow and develop. I have discussed this with the Minister, Deputy Ring, and I would like to see a role for this Department in respect of the western rail corridor.

I know Project Ireland 2040 makes mention of this in respect of the rail review. The Deputy is correct and I believe that the WDC should have a role in that. Irish Rail, if left to its own devices, might not come up with a result that would be in the interest of the west. We have to look at something like this not for just today or tomorrow or five years, but ten, twenty and thirty years into the future. We have to look at the whole issue of climate change, rural regeneration and all that goes with that. The potential for the western rail corridor is huge. I am fully supportive and it would be a retrograde step if we lost the line based on a short-term decision on an alternative use that would make it difficult to get it back for rail in the future.

I certainly would support the Western Development Commission having a role in that review. Has the Chairman had an opportunity to invite representatives of the Western Development Commission to appear before the committee? I have met the chairman and the chief executive officer, CEO. The Minister, Deputy Ring, has appointed a new board. I am trying to organise a date to meet its members in order to put forward some of my ideas and to hear the issues with which they would like to get involved or in which they believe they might have a role and whether the legislation establishing the commission needs to be changed. I have some ideas in that regard that we hope to advance subject to agreement within the Department.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We certainly would be very interested in having representatives of the Western Development Commission appear before the committee.

That concludes our discussions on programme A. I propose that we have a ten-minute break. It is a good point to stop.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with that.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We still have to discuss programmes B, C and D. The witnesses have been here for nearly two and a half hours. I think it is the right time to have a break.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Many of us were engaged all afternoon with the Heritage Bill. That started at 1.30 p.m. and finished at 4.30 p.m. We have been here for two and a half hours. I have a suggestion if the Minister is agreeable. We have done a good bit of work very thoroughly and much positive stuff has come out. I propose that we agree the Estimate in order that it can go back to the Dáil but that the Minister comes back on another day to discuss programmes B, C and D. Many of the officials will not need to return because they are finished. We should cover those programmes as thoroughly as we have done with this. Ideas have been tossed around that can deliver for rural areas. I hope we can be equally positive for urban areas and communities in general when we come to the next bit. Otherwise we will be trying to get out of here at 8 p.m. and all sorts of massive issues that need to be dealt with will be skimmed over and people will get tired.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. If the Estimate can be agreed this evening, of course I will come back to appear before the committee to discuss any programme. I have no problem coming in here; in fact I like the committees. I will come back at any time once we know the programmes the members want to discuss. I have enjoyed today's discussion and have no problem coming back. It is important that the Estimate would be agreed tonight.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I said we would agree.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not have a difficulty but we have to finish our consideration of the Estimate.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We can do that.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We have to do that this evening. We have to go down through it to conclude it. The Minister has indicated he is willing to come back another time. We will schedule that to happen but it will be a few months away.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Why would it be a few months away?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am available and my officials are available. Once the Dáil is in session, I have no problem. I am available. I will come in once the committee gives me some notice and tells me what it wants to discuss.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking that we do programmes B and C.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We need to conclude our deliberations on the entire Estimate this evening.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Deputy Ó Cuív has said he has no problem with that. All he is saying is that we agree the Estimate to let the Minister and his officials-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We are not changing the figures anyway. We have no power to change the figures. We say they are agreed and we have gone through them all. We should come back and forensically examine programmes B and C. We have many suggestions on how we should go forward. Otherwise things like the RAPID programme and the local community development committees, LCDCs, will be skimmed over. We will not spend another two and a half hours here tonight, as it would take us to 9.30 p.m. Some of the officials will not have to come back again because they know we will be discussing programmes B and C. We should agree the Estimate to indicate we are happy the money is under the right headings and so on, and move on.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Minister does not have a problem coming in to discuss any issue. That is his position. We have a duty to consider the Estimate this evening. We can invite the Minister and Minister of State to appear before the committee at some point in the future to discuss whatever programme members want. The Minister has told the committee that.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is the Chairman saying we cannot say that we look at the Estimates and that we agree with them?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Let us consider them. We have programmes B, C and D ahead of us. They are significant programmes. The committee can agree to discuss any programme after this but we must conclude our consideration of the Estimate.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We are saying we agree the Estimate and a message goes back to Dáil Éireann. That is all we are obliged to do.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is there some statutory reason for us to read through them? Is the Chairman saying that we cannot just agree them?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We need to go through the programmes.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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We can give them ten minutes each.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We can do that if that -----

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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If that is what we need to do, we can do that.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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---- is the agreement of-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We do not have to do so. If we are happy we have no questions on them today, we can agree them and the message goes back to the Dáil. Nothing in any Standing Order stops us doing that and coming back as long as the Minister on word of honour says he will come in some day and we will have a discussion. We cannot change any figure but we cannot do that anyway. We will do it properly another day and not try to short-circuit discussion. There is an issue with rural areas; there is an even bigger issue with deprived urban areas.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is right.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to give them the same attention we have given very constructively right across the board to the rural areas on a future day.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My officials are prepared to come in on any occasion. I am prepared to come in on any issue. The Deputy is correct. It should be approved tonight because we need it for the Dáil tomorrow; I need to get my Estimates done. I have given a commitment. If members want me to come back to discuss programmes B, C and D, the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, and I have no problem in coming back. It would be only right because, like the Deputy, I have issues I want to discuss on SICAP, the community activation programme, and other programmes that need attention. We may need to look at other ways and means of operating these programmes as well.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I can bring this to conclusion, if that is the agreement of the committee.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What does Deputy Martin Kenny say?

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I agree.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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At least we might all have a common goal.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Ring, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, and their officials for their assistance. It is proposed to publish the briefings supplied by the Department on the committee's website. This will be an invaluable aid for citizens monitoring the Department's performance. Is that agreed? Agreed. I will also publish the secretariat's briefing on the website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee will invite the Ministers to meet the committee in September. We will have discussions following the meeting. We will organise it for earlier than September. September was when the next meeting with the Minister, Deputy Ring, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, was due to take place.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We will meet them before that.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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What about in the next few weeks?

Chairman:

It will be in the next three or four weeks.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Once the Dáil is in session, I am prepared to come in.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We will organise that and we will be in communication with members.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We need to be prepared. We meet all sorts of witnesses but very little comes out of it. Today's meeting has given results.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The joint committee is scheduled to meet the EU Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, Mr. Phil Hogan, in joint session with the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine tomorrow at 2 p.m. I thank members for their attendance today.