Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome today's speakers and the stakeholders who are present. I welcome, in particular, Ms Jemma Doyle and her class from Cullina national school in Beaufort who are taking part in the Blue Star programme which helps students to understand the European Union better. All of the students in Ms Doyle's class are leading efforts in their school to understand the European Union better and this is the first year the school has taken part in the programme. I have been to it in the recent past and seen how hard all of the students are working on projects to understand the European Union and its member states better. As the class have been watching the work of the joint committee by live stream, we are particularly pleased that they have come to see it in reality. As it is important for all of us to understand and engage with the European Union, we are delighted that they are here. The students were in the Dáil Chamber earlier and given a whirlwind tour of Leinster House, despite the ongoing works.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I join the Chairman in welcoming the schoolchildren from Beaufort.

Neale Richmond (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In a former professional life I helped to set up the Blue Star programme. I am particularly delighted, therefore, to welcome the schoolchildren, as well as Ms Joan Flanagan from the European Commission Office in Ireland who does so much. It is great that, six years on, the programme has been taken up so well in Beaufort. County Kerry has always had strong representation under the Blue Star programme.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I support those sentiments.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The meeting is in two parts, both of which will deal with the enlargement process for the Western Balkans. Over a month ago the European Commission published a draft strategy document outlining a possible enlargement perspective for the Western Balkans. The committee looked at the strategy and the various documents published at the time and agreed that these were really important issues that we wanted to consider in more depth. As a small member state which has benefited greatly from membership of the European Union, we have often been interested in supporting other countries which would like to make the same journey we made many years ago. We are delighted that Mr. Maciej Popowski, deputy director of DG NEAR, joins us. I have looked through his CV and cannot think of anyone who is better placed to talk about the process of enlargement, having seen it up close and from both sides, whether in respect of a country that was working to join the European Union or as a representative of the Union.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Mr. Popowski to make his opening statement.

After that I will be opening the floor to our members for any questions they might have. Thank you again for being here today.

Mr. Maciej Popowski:

Thank you very much, Chairman, Senators and Deputies. I will start with an apology for my complicated Polish names but I think by now you must be used to that in this country. I am very happy to have this opportunity to talk to the committee about the future enlargement of the European Union. As Members of Parliament, the committee members play a key role in any discussion on European issues and this is a key European issue, indeed, and also one that matters to our citizens.

I would like to start with the bigger picture and put the enlargement process in the context of the ongoing debate on the future of Europe and then I will say a few words on the strategy for the western Balkans and the recent package of reports on all the candidate countries that were adopted last week.

It was just over a year ago that the President of the European Commission, Mr. Jean-Claude Juncker, presented a so-called White Paper on the future of Europe. This was intended as a forward-looking blueprint on how Europe will change in the next ten years or so, from the impact of new technologies on society and jobs, to doubts about globalisation, security concerns and the rise of populism. It sets out five different scenarios which I will recall for the sake of completeness: scenario 1, carrying on the EU focus on delivering its positive reform agenda as per all agreements to date; scenario 2, nothing but the Single Market, where the EU gradually shifts its focus back to the Single Market, as the 27 member states are not able to find common ground for an increased number of policy areas; scenario 3, those who want more do more, where the EU proceeds as today but allows willing member states to do more together, which essentially amounts to a multi-speed Europe; scenario 4, doing less more efficiently, where the EU focuses on delivering more and faster in selected policy areas, and attention and limited resources are focused on them; and scenario 5, doing much more together, where member states decide to share more power, resources and decision-making across the board, which is the more Europe option.

The intention and objective of the White Paper was to stimulate debate among citizens, given that we are preparing for the elections to the European Parliament in May 2019. Also, when one looks at those different scenarios, they form an important background to all the ongoing big debates which the committee is no doubt following in this House, whether it is the governance of the eurozone, privacy laws or European defence. This debate on the future has picked up in all corners of Europe, citizens' dialogues are taking place regularly, including here in Ireland.

Last January, the Taoiseach was the first EU leader to reflect on the future of Europe with Members of the European Parliament in Strasbourg. In his speech he spoke of his vision for a European Union with more member states, a larger budget, and harmonisation in policy areas that have a proven European value.

Later on, in September 2017, President Juncker presented his state of the Union address to the Members of the European Parliament in Strasbourg and asked for a more united, stronger and more democratic Union, where solidarity and responsibility go hand in hand in all policy areas, from migration to the banking and monetary union, from energy to our common budget, a Union where the rule of law is not optional but the very basis of everything we do.

That leads me to the subject of the western Balkans, because in the same speech, President Juncker stated very clearly that if we want more stability in our neighbourhood, then we must maintain a credible enlargement perspective for the western Balkans and in the future the EU will be more than 27. That was a sea change because the countries in the western Balkan region were looking forward to, so this European perspective, a clear European perspective, I must say, was confirmed. Since then, we have put words into action and stepped up our support to our partners in the western Balkans. This has included the adoption of the strategy for western Balkans in February of this year. The strategy confirms that the door of the Union remains in principle open, beyond any doubt for the western Balkan countries. It is an important signal of encouragement to them. Now it is up to the countries concerned to build on that momentum. It is a fantastic opportunity, but there is still a lot of work ahead and there is no time to waste.

The western Balkans strategy is not a blank cheque. It is the beginning of a process in which established conditions have to be met. This will require an acceleration of reforms. The leaders of the region need to make a political and societal choice to embrace EU values, not only on paper, but in reality.

There is a target date in this strategy that has raised expectations and has led to many debates both within the European Union and the region, but a 2025 target date has to be read as a sign of encouragement in a best-case scenario but not as a given. It is not a guarantee, nor is it set in stone. It is an incentive. It is ambitious but doable for those most advanced.

There are no shortcuts or free passes on the way to the European Union, and the enlargement methodology, as established some time ago, will continue to apply. We call it the fundamentals first approach, which stands on the basis that any future accession will be purely merit-based, depending on the progress each country makes. The criteria are clear. The ball is very much in the countries' court. For the time being Montenegro and Serbia are front runners. They started accession talks and are ahead of others but front runners can fall behind if they do not deliver, while others can catch up.

To help the countries address these challenges, the Commission put forward the so-called six flagship initiatives on the rule of law, security and migration, socio-economic development, increasing connectivity, a digital agenda for the Balkans, and pushing harder for good neighbourly relations and reconciliation. Under these initiatives the EU announced its intention to support real progress, reform and change in the region. We are also going to offer additional financial support to those countries for all of those necessary reforms that need to be undertaken. As announced by my Commissioner, Johannes Hahn, the Commission intends to put on the table an additional €500 million until 2020 through redeployment of pre-accession funding.

To be clear, this new strategic opening will not replace the current process, policies and programmes but will enrich them. Enlargement policy, as such, remains unchanged which was confirmed again last week by the Commission when it adopted the so-called enlargement package. This is a set of six country reports from all of those countries in the region, and Turkey, and a general communication recalling the principles of enlargement policy. It takes stock of the state of play in the countries and draws conclusions on the implementation of the enlargement policy up to the end of January 2018, particularly as regards reforms in fundamental areas, including the rule of law, fundamental rights, governance, economic development and competitiveness. It simply reinforces the message of own merit as a key principle of enlargement policy and it shows, yet again, that this policy is not an end in itself but is a strategy of exporting stability to our immediate front yard. This underlines the importance of building broad public acceptance for enlargement policy in member states.

I will mention a few highlights of the of the package, namely, the Commission's recommendations to open accession negotiations with Albania and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. This was something new, and is based on the good progress made and the Commission's assessment that the necessary conditions set in 2016 have been met in both countries. It is an important step forward and underlines the importance of the EU response when countries deliver. This is what makes enlargement policy credible and incentivises countries to engage in far-reaching reforms.

However, and this applies to all the countries in the region, a lot remains to be done. All countries must now urgently tackle the key areas, including the rule of law, fundamental rights, the fight against corruption and state capture, and organised crime. Countries must also significantly up their game on economic reforms and tackling high unemployment. We also put a strong emphasis on reconciliation and ensuring good neighbourly relations. All pending bilateral issues must be settled ahead of accession, starting with a legally binding comprehensive normalisation agreement between Serbia and Kosovo.

If the committee allows me a side remark here, I would say that we want to help in this process of reconciliation between different communities in the Balkans. Ireland's unique experience of building and sustaining peace and promoting reconciliation on the island continues to be of great benefit to peace builders elsewhere, including in the Balkans. We want to build on certain practices within the European Union.

I will now say a few words on Turkey because Turkey is a candidate country too, although I know it is not a focus in the debate, but I will speak briefly on this. Our analysis shows that the country continues to move away significantly from the European Union, in particular in the areas of the rule of law and fundamental rights. We have repeatedly called on Turkey to reverse this negative trend as a matter of priority, and we make very clear recommendations to this end in the report. At the same time, Turkey is and will remain a key strategic neighbour. In this context, I commend Turkey's great efforts to provide shelter and support to more than 3.5 million registered Syrian refugees. The EU remains committed to assisting Turkey in addressing this challenge.

On my final point, which is the next steps to be taken, on 17 May, our leaders meet their counterparts from the western Balkans in Sofia. It is the first such summit since Thessaloniki Summit 15 years ago. This will not only be an opportunity to reaffirm the region's European perspective but it should also strengthen links between the EU and the western Balkans in infrastructure and digital and human connectivity, and bring us closer together to tackle common challenges. It will be a great opportunity for the western Balkans to confirm an unequivocal commitment to reform and good neighbourly relations.

There is this western Balkan momentum now that we will have to maintain, because we want to bring this project to a successful end. Enlargement is a priority policy of the European Commission, and in a way it is also a logical continuation of the notion of European integration as a peace project. That is where it all comes from. It is very important, and this would also be my message to the committee, to conduct a wide debate on the subject in all member states, because we need to raise awareness of the enlargement process but also build acceptance of the outcome of the negotiations in the future, and that is where national parliaments will play a key role. I am looking forward to an exchange of views with committee members and I thank them for their attention.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witness. I neglected to welcome Mr. Gerry Kiely, head of the European Commission office here in Dublin. I thank him very much for his diligent and sterling work and compliment him on the recent initiative creating awareness throughout the counties of Ireland of the benefit of being a member of the EU. That work was very worthwhile, localising it in each county, and I would like to see that continue. I know all of the members of the committee would compliment him and those who worked with him on that initiative. I call our first speaker, Senator Craughwell.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our witness is very welcome and I thank him for a comprehensive overview of where things are. I have always had some concern about expansion of the European project. One is acutely aware of the old economic diminishing marginal returns to expansion, and the larger we get, the more precarious things become. Clearly, there is great benefit in expanding the project and taking in other countries. When we look at the western Balkans, however, we are looking at countries that are still in a state of development and of learning mutual respect for one another in some particular parts of the former Yugoslavia.

Clearly, if we set down the rules and they meet the rules, that is one part of the equation. The other part of the equation is the peace and reconciliation that is required right across that particular geographic area. There are still open wounds, and we know in this country what open wounds are like, how long they take to repair, and how long it takes people to build an understanding and a trust with one another. It is not just economics that will be important. It is not just security on a country-by-country basis. It is not just an understanding of migration. It is an understanding of neighbours, what is required to be a good neighbour, and what is required for reconciliation.

As we move into the Balkans, in particular, there is probably a need for some sort of reconciliation process to be underpinned and overseen by the European Union before we consider a rush forward. I sometimes worry, because of the loss of the UK under Brexit, that we might be inclined to rush forward and replace the UK. It is great what the witness has told us here today. It gives me some reassurance that that is not happening, but I would like to see more overt reconciliation. I would like to see, perhaps, a conference in the Balkans across all of the different actors or groups and to hear, under almost a Chatham House Rules scenario, some of the open wounds being explored and purged, for want of a better word, before we start hoping to move together.

The Turkish issue bothers me. I agree with the assessment of the witness that Turkey seems to be moving further away rather than closer, and that is a matter of great concern, especially as one gets closer to the Middle East and all of the instability in that region right now.

I commend the witness on the work he is doing. Those are the concerns that I have, and I would be interested in the views of the witness on them.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senator. Deputy Durkan.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Popowski for coming before the committee today. It is timely to look at the enlargement process and to examine its merits. I do not agree with the general thrust that we should stay well away from enlargement at this stage. Many people have said in recent years that we enlarged too quickly. I do not agree. There were very few options at the time. Enlargement was the better option to bring those countries that were on the periphery of the European Union into the Union, apply theacquis communautaireand try to bring them together as a family. It is time we Europeans viewed each other more as neighbours, friends and fellow Europeans rather than as foreigners. That that is the lesson to be learned from the modern era, from the whole situation of refugees traipsing across Europe. It is no harm to acknowledge again the Turkish contribution in relation to Syrian refugees. Where else would they be if they had not been accommodated in some of the neighbouring countries? I recognise the difficulty with the immediate neighbours on the eastern borders of the modern European Union.

The question of extra membership is no harm at all. It is important, however, to ensure that the acquisis observed by all incoming countries and by existing countries. There is a tendency occasionally for existing countries to forget what we are about. It is no harm at this stage to mention that and to look at those countries. I tabled a parliamentary question about this recently, looking at the degree to which some existing and established countries are happy, or if the rest of Europe is happy, with their adherence to the acquis communautaire.

There are a number of reasons we need to accommodate, encourage and bring on board countries such as those in the western Balkans. Extra membership of the European Union is one, which would be of benefit to small countries and other countries that are small in terms of stature but not always small in terms of political influence. It is also important to try to ensure that we do not create a them and us situation whereby we treat the incoming or potentially incoming countries with suspicion. It is a dangerous thing to do. It creates enmity, bitterness and the kinds of things that happened, for instance, when Britain first attempted to join what was then the EEC and there was strong opposition from some existing European countries. I am not going to go into the details of that now but I can remember it quite well.

We need to be very careful not to allow that to happen, not to create bitterness in incoming countries before they arrive at all. From a security point of view, it is equally essential that the western Balkans is treated as a special entity. The history of Europe should be enough to tell us all the things that have happened and that tend to happen in that particular area. We must try to ensure that we create the political and economic environment to prevent similar events happening in the future.

We must also consider the fact that major catastrophes have arisen from small beginnings, and that is the issue on which we need to concentrate. Like everybody else, I have travelled in that area both on holidays and officially. I laud the work that has already been done to include the western Balkans and bring them into the loop, as it were. I hope that will continue. I also hope that no situation arises whereby there is a diminution in what is required to accommodate anybody. We are either all in the one school or we are not in the one school. We all contribute and aspire to the same objectives or we do not. It is hugely important to set down these markers in the beginning rather than at a later stage.

The Single Market is there for everyone, including new members when they come on board. That means the full benefits and positive elements of the Single Market remain available and continue to be available throughout the European Union. There is a tendency in other discussions nowadays to raise having different stages of European integration and Europeanism and that perhaps we should go in different directions. I am not an advocate of that school of thought. We need to keep Europe together. It would be a very dangerous thing to create any new power blocs within Europe which might tend to go in diverse directions. It would be negative from the perspective of Europe, both in its existing and future form, and would not be good for either peace, stability or economic viability.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Durkan. I appreciate members trying to keep their contributions short because our speaker has to leave.

Neale Richmond (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses and thank them very much for their contribution. I am a strong believer in a deepening and widening of the European project. Ultimately, this is the greatest peace project in the history of mankind and the further we widen it into former conflict zones, the better for everyone.

Looking at the accession process, however, a concern I have which I raised with Mr. Kiely when he was here to talk about the future of Europe is the return for the accession process. If the ultimate aim is European membership and acceding to the European Union, that is great, but what happens in the meantime? What are the tangible rewards for coming to terms with the Copenhagen criteria? I think specifically of the case of Turkey, which Senator Craughwell mentioned. How long has Turkey been waiting? One could argue that it has been waiting since the 1960s, when Ireland, the UK, Denmark, and Norway first considered joining, yet nothing has moved. Has that changed the political impression in Turkey in recent years? Perhaps there is an element of frustration. Erdoan and his new brand of Islamic nationalism has forced them to look away from the European dream and to say perhaps the EU will never let them in and what is the point in bothering if the EU is just going to keep Turkey at arm's length. What can we do to show that there is not just an accession process but a step 1, step 2, step 3 and they come with certain rewards and goals as well as ultimate accession? We cannot just say the door is open.

If we look at the timeline for the expansion of the EEC, as it was, starting with our own accession in 1973, the longest we have ever gone without a new member state joining is nine years. It is five years since the Croats joined. I do not know if one of the applicant countries from the western Balkans will make it into the European Union in the next four years. How long will it be until we do extend the club, as such? We know it is going to shrink in about a year's time, whether we like it or not, but we do have to be prepared to broaden out and make sure that we are equipped, because many would argue that in 2007 we were too quick to let Bulgaria and Romania in, and perhaps they were not ready at that stage and, indeed, their economies suffered. Significant issues still remain in Romania, in particular with corruption. We heard that mentioned in the remarks of the witnesses.

I wish to speak to one country specifically, namely, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It ties in with what I have said. When I was on the European Committee of the Regions I was on the joint consultative committee, JCC, for that country and I travelled there a number of times and hosted delegations of local authority members from that region in Brussels. I did not quite manage to get them to Dublin but my former colleague, Hughie McGrath, did bring a group to Nenagh to show them the sights and sounds of that part of Ireland. When I was there it was at the height of the refugee migration crisis, which we are still experiencing, and there were mayors and local authority figures from a relatively poor country dealing with an avalanche of people trying to go through their country to get to the European Union. They were only passing through. They were not staying but the supports they were receiving from the European Union were small and did not meet their needs. They felt they were being used to an extent and, ultimately, they were told that it was all part of the process and one day they would be part of the European Union.

We can only treat countries in the region like that for so long, because the conflict in Syria is not ending, the refugee crisis is ongoing, and the civil war has been going on for seven years. If we are expecting accession countries to filter migration into the European Union and telling them that one day they will get a chance to join the great Union, after a while they will get pretty sick of just kind words on future accession. There have to be tangible rewards that can work both ways, that can be of benefit to the European Union as well as the accession countries. The challenge for the future of Europe debate is to formalise that relationship and put it down so it is quite obvious and clear to the layman in the accession countries or the remaining 27 member states what the accession process requires. We know that through the Copenhagen criteria, but what do countries get in return through the total process and not just the end result?

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Richmond. I now call Senator Leyden who is the Vice Chairman of the committee.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Mr. Popowski and Mr. Kiely from the Commission office in Dublin. We very much welcome the participation of the ambassadors who are representative of the various embassies at our meetings. The debate is very interesting. I am very much in favour of the enlargement of the European Union, in particular the accession of countries from the western Balkans.

I wish to concentrate specifically on Montenegro. I would like Mr. Popowski to read a report with which I was involved from 31 January 2015 called the Committee on the Honouring of Obligations and Commitments by Member States of the Council of Europe (Monitoring Committee). It relates to Resolution No. 1115 (1997). The summary of the situation is that I was monitoring Montenegro with Mr. Sasi from Finland and we carried out extensive meetings in Montenegro with the President, the Prime Minister and all Government Ministers. We prepared a report and now Montenegro is in a post-monitoring situation. We toured all of Montenegro. We went to the Roma camps, which were looking after people from the Roma community. They were doing their best in that regard. We identified the key issues in relation to the judiciary, the situation with the media, which is very important, the fight against corruption and organised crime, the right of minorities, the fight against discrimination, and the situation of refugees and internally displaced persons. We had open access to the entire Government in Montenegro, which was very important.

I wish to emphasise Montenegro but I am also in favour of all the accession candidates from the region. It is vital that we extend the European Union to promote continuing stability in the region and that we are not held back by the Brexit situation. Let us leave Brexit aside. That is being negotiated at the moment. We should not let the Government of the United Kingdom put a stop to the growth of the European Union. The European Union is bigger than any one country. We should not be delayed or delay any of those countries who are now looking forward to accession. Montenegro applied to join the EU in June 2012 and it has closed chapters 25 and 26. We carried out the report to which I referred and which was adopted unanimously by the Council of Europe on 31 January. Montenegro uses the euro although it is not in the eurozone. The euro is the main currency in Montenegro.

I found it a very peaceful region and we want to maintain that peace. There is also the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is very important that Bosnia and Herzegovina is embraced by the European Union at an early stage. I am not particularly promoting it as much as I would Montenegro and Serbia, but it will have membership in future because that is where the difficulties arose in the past. The war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

It just happened that I prepared this report. I am delighted now, as a member of the Seanad and a former member of the Council of Europe, to promote the report to Mr. Popowski. It has given me a great opportunity. I ask him to read the report. It is very detailed, very fair and very honest. If all of these Balkan states are not given encouragement, they could revert back to the same situation as we had before. They are very hungry to join. They promoted to me the fact they were very concerned about joining NATO. I made the point to them that it was not necessary to join NATO to join the European Union. We are not members of NATO and it is likely we will not be members of NATO, but there is this idea in the region. They are worried about Russia, of course, and I accept this, and they want to maintain security. Relationships in the region between Croatia, Montenegro, Serbia and Kosovo are good and we want to maintain this.

I am delighted to have had this opportunity as a member of the committee, which is a very important committee in this regard. At some stage I would like to meet a delegation from Montenegro, or any other applicant state, at one of our future meetings to discuss its application to the European Union. I support fully Montenegro and I ask Mr. Popowski to push it. By the way, many of Mr. Popowski's neighbours from Poland are in Ireland and are working very well. Ireland also has an awfully big investment in Poland. It works both ways. Many Irish people work in Poland. The Polish people here are more than welcome and they play a very important role. Only for them we would not have as many clergymen here as we do.

Seán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious of time so I will confine myself to a few remarks. I thank Mr. Popowski for his briefing on the enlargement situation with particular reference to the western Balkans. In his contribution he spoke about the future of Europe, which is the background of all of our discussions. Brexit was a big shock to us all. It was a big shock to us in Ireland, but also a shock to the European Union as a whole. Various people have outlined their vision for Europe, including Jean-Claude Juncker as Mr. Popowski mentioned, and President Macron made a very important address to the European Parliament recently. We in Ireland agree with some of what he said and perhaps not more. We have concerns about his proposals for the reform of the eurozone.

President Macron struck a chord on the vision for Europe, the need to promote European values and to recommit to those values. He is concerned about the rise of illiberal tendencies throughout the European Union, especially in some of the member states. Turkey is a case in point although it is not in the European Union, as is Poland. Concerns have been expressed about Poland but more particularly about Hungary. Is the European Commission concerned about this? I know some of the clauses of the treaty have been invoked to deal with this situation with regard to some of the member states. It is a concern in any discussion on the future of the European Union and a vision for the European Union to see these illiberal tendencies breaking out in various member states. It is something of which we and the Commission always have to be conscious of. It is something we have to deal with. What is the Commission's view of this threat to the future of the European Union?

Like other speakers I fully support the enlargement of the European Union and this has always been the Irish position. The last great enlargement took place during our Presidency when many central and eastern European states joined the European Union and it was a great cause for celebration. We cannot be seen to be pulling up the ladder. We have done well out of the European Union and we need to extend the benefits of the European Union to other applicant countries in the interests of peace, prosperity and progress, especially in the Balkan region, which has been a source of instability throughout modern history. If reforms are encouraged and supported, we as member states of the European Union should be fully supportive of their applications.

I note the deteriorating situation in Turkey, having regard to what I have just outlined, and the early general election on 24 June. It does not bode well for Turkey getting into the European Union. While it would be of great benefit to Europe to have Turkey in the European Union, that day is getting pushed back more and more and this is regrettable.

Mr. Maciej Popowski:

I thank committee members for their comments. I agree with them and I am very encouraged by their positive attitude to enlargement. It makes my job and the job of the team so much easier. Specifically on the points that have been raised, I will start with Senator Craughwell's comments on reconciliation. I could not agree more. This is a key. We cannot just go on ignoring the past because the past will haunt us. I picked up his idea of a conference and it is something I will be happy to discuss with my team because, as I said in my introduction, we would like to draw on the experience of member states. He mentioned the Northern Ireland peace process. The Good Friday Agreement was concluded only 20 years ago, so the people who made it happen are still around and active participants in public life. We should reach out to them and see how they can inspire people in Kosovo or other places. It is not only about Serbia and Kosovo. It goes deeper than this. We certainly need to bear this in mind.

Deputy Durkan recalled the historical context and I very much agree. This was very clearly spelled out in the strategy. There is momentum, but we also have to look at the map first. We are talking about European countries. There is also the background of atrocities, starting in Sarajevo in 1914. I have just been there and I crossed over the bridge where Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. We must not forget this. There is still potential for conflict and we want to eliminate this. The whole process of enlargement is an effective measure of prevention.

I agree with Deputy Durkan that European law has to be applied by everyone, existing member states and new member states. This is why the Commission adopted the policy of fundamentals first. We will be very firm on this. It also ties in with the point made by Deputy Haughey on values and illiberal tendencies. I will not comment on this in detail because it goes well beyond my remit, but we think if a country wants to become a member of the European Union it has to play by the rules, and the rules are the same for everyone. We take them very seriously and this will not change.

With regard to the point raised by Senator Richmond on incentives, the benefits do not only come at the end as the countries also change. They do not change because of Brussels and because we tell them to change. They change because it is good for the people. In a way, we are accompanying them on this road. We also provide a lot of assistance. We want to top up significantly the pre-accession funding available for countries in the western Balkans so we can invest in roads, energy, infrastructure and the education of young people.

One of the European Union's successes is the Erasmus programme, the student exchange scheme. We intend to double the budget available for the western Balkans so that we can raise a new generation of Europeans. That is part of our package.

Turkey is a different case. It is not that Europe is moving away from Turkey, it is Turkey moving away from Europe. It is still a candidate country and we expect it to fulfil the obligations of a candidate country, to stick to certain conditions and to accept the fundamental values. We will continue our co-operation with Turkey, as difficult as it is at times. We will also focus on areas where we can support Turkish civil society, research communities, students and the younger generation, and continue our quite successful co-operation on migration management. I must give credit where it is due. The Turkish Government and the Turkish people have done a great job in accommodating those 3.5 million Syrians. They live in difficult conditions, but they are dignified conditions, and they are much better off in Turkey than they would be at home or many other transit countries, in which they sometimes find themselves.

On the timelines of the process, the target date is 2025. For clarity, this is indicative. It may happen, but it is an incentive not a guarantee. If there is a delay, there is a delay. We want to do it properly. Both the countries concerned and ourselves need to be ready for enlargement.

I thank Senator Leyden for his comments on Montenegro. I will be happy to read his recommendations. We are working very closely with the Council of Europe. It is the depository of basic conventions, for instance, and it also helps us enormously in our work on the rule of law and judicial reform. The Venice Commission also plays an important role. It was very prominent in Albania when it embarked on major judicial reform last year. When we were drafting the country reports to which I referred, we drew heavily on the expertise of the Council of Europe. Montenegro is a front-runner country which is doing well. Its progress has been clearly recognised. I am sure that it will stay on its European track and make even quicker progress.

I also thank the Senator for his kind words about the Polish constituency in Ireland.

Deputy Haughey referred to values. I commented on values but I am not well-placed to comment on the internal discussions with member states, that it the role of our political masters, particularly Vice President, Frans Timmermans, who is in charge. I agree that we must be very consistent when we talk about values and fundamental principles. That is what makes us Europeans, we want to keep it that way and despite the various tendencies, I am sure that we will.

I thank the committee for this debate. It is very important for us to get feedback from national parliaments on the work we are doing on the western Balkans.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Popowski and Mr. Kiely for their engagement and for taking the time to be here today. It was very worthwhile.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am pleased to welcome representatives from Albania and Montenegro to this meeting. We are joined by H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko, ambassador of the Republic of Albania to Ireland and Mr. Mladen Dragasevic, deputy ambassador of Montenegro in the United Kingdom. When this committee decided to consider the European Commission's proposals, we felt it was very important to consult with the countries themselves. The committee invited the ambassadors from the six countries of the western Balkans. We will try to find dates that work so that we may engage with them all.

Our witnesses today are very welcome. We look forward to hearing their views on this process, the stage at which their countries are, and how they see the situation developing.

I will ask both of the witnesses to make their opening statements and then we will take questions from the members.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Ambassador Qirko to begin.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko:

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation. We feel it is an important contribution and is of particular assistance to our dream of joining the European Union.

Twenty eight years ago, when they changed the regime, the citizens of Albania had one dream, which was to make Albania like the rest of Europe. Now, after 28 years, we are on the eve of realising this, thanks to the assistance and continued support of European Union countries. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Irish Parliament, the President and all parties for the continual and unconditional support which they gave to all of the western Balkan countries in their path towards integration into the European Union.

I refer again to the unconditional support that Ireland has given to my country for integration. We have prepared a paper regarding the development. I will not enter into the details of what we have written. I will just express our view of how important integration into the European Union is for the western Balkans. I give the concrete example of the integration of Albania. Twenty years ago, we had the terrible experience of the collapse of pyramid schemes and the terrible effect of civil war.

However, Albania as a NATO member, an important regional player and the specific role my country is playing in the region shows that the integration of the countries of the region into the EU and into NATO is the best solution for our future. In the last five years at least, this dream of the magnetic force - that we can join the EU one day - has made our leaders more reasonable and more pragmatic to work together. I will give an example. Until five years ago, there were no exchanges of visits between the Presidents or Prime Ministers of Albania and Serbia. The President of Serbia and the Prime Minister of Albania have met each other ten times in the past year.

This is a concrete example of how the atmosphere has changed in the western Balkans. We are working together, our politicians are working together and our peoples are working together. This magnetic positive force called the EU has changed everything. We have some data regarding support for the EU in my country. It is 80% to 90%. However, I honestly do not know about this 10% of people who do not support membership in the EU. Anyway, Albania is a NATO member and is playing its role in the region. We have strongly supported the membership of Montenegro in NATO. We also strongly support the Macedonian membership of NATO because we think that only a region integrated into NATO and the European Union will be a region of peace and stability. We know the bad legacy of the past is there. It is in the past for the moment. Only by working together to build our future and build our institutions will the reality be different for this region.

Albania is doing its own work as a candidate member. Last week, we received a very positive and encouraging message from the Commission. It declared that it will present the decision to open accession talks with Albania to the Council. This is a positive and encouraging message. Last year, Albania made changes to its judiciary and its constitutional system. In the last 25 years, the judiciary had been considered one of the most problematic and corrupt institutions. Thanks to the assistance of the EU and the United States we have built a vetting system to check the wealth of the judges and prosecutors. This system brought some concrete results - some 21 judges are no longer members of this system. An investigation of their unjustified wealth will start. The good news is that the example of Albania and the changes we made in our constitution will be used by other partners and friendly countries in the western Balkans.

We are trying to do our best as a member of NATO. Our forces are in Bosnia and Kosovo. They are also in Afghanistan and Mali and our naval vessels are making a modest contribution to the control of the influx of illegal immigration in the Aegean Sea. We strongly support the dialogue between Kosovo and Serbia because we think the only solution for both countries is through negotiations and trying to find a common and acceptable solution for both parts. We appreciate the role of President Aleksandar Vui of Serbia and President Hashim Thaçi of Kosovo in this process. We are encouraging this negotiation. It is the only way to resolve this problem. Kosovo is a reality. More than 120 countries have already recognised it and it is on a path towards EU and Euro-Atlantic integration. I end with these words and hopefully I will be ready and able to answer some questions. Ireland is an inspiring model for a country like us. The chance that Ireland had 25 years ago, we have to have in the near future. We know we have a lot of work to do. However, we know where we would like to arrive. I thank the committee for its attention.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank His Excellency, Mr. Qirko. Would the deputy ambassador like to go next?

Mr. Mladen Draga?evi:

Tráthnona maith, a chairde. I hope I pronounce that so at least I can be understood.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do.

Mr. Mladen Draga?evi:

Honourable Chairman of the committee, Deputy Healy-Rae, esteemed Members of the Oireachtas, ladies and gentlemen, I come to Dublin in response to the kind invitation the Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Union Affairs, Mr. Michael Healy-Rae, sent to the ambassador of Montenegro to the Republic of Ireland, His Excellency, Mr. Borislav Banovi. Unfortunately, the ambassador, due to previous commitments, could not be here today, but I am endowed to present assurances of his highest consideration.

I am grateful for this opportunity to speak today in the admired Houses of the Oireachtas on topics related to the European Union, in this, on various aspects, highly dynamic and important moment of its existence. The focus of the discussion will be on the process of European enlargement, accession or unification - the terminology shifts, depending on which side of the continent the narrator stands.

The documents disseminated with the kind assistance of the committee secretariat contain more detailed information on the current status of the European integration process of Montenegro and highlight the main recent achievements of the economic policy in my country. Before I inform the committee of the main activities, plans and expectations related to the integration process in Podgorica, allow me to bring the attention of the committee to the latest official standpoints of Brussels. On 6 February this year, the European Commission adopted the strategy for a credible enlargement perspective for, and enhanced EU engagement with, the western Balkans. Luckily, the main message of this document is much simpler than its title – the European perspective of the western Balkan countries is clear and undoubted.

EU enlargement remains one of the crucial pillars of the broader strategy for strengthening the Union until 2025. What is also important for us in Montenegro, as the leader of European integration process in the Balkans, is reiterated confirmation that enlargement is and will remain a process based on individual merits of the candidates, and based solely on the objective progress made – the so called "regatta principle". On the other hand, the EU strategy states that the countries in the region must undertake profound and deep reforms in key areas: the rule of law, governance and the economy, the functioning of democratic institutions and the fight against corruption and organised crime.

The 2018 European Commission report on Montenegro of 17 April this year mirrors, in more detail, the principal recommendations in the mentioned EU strategy for the western Balkans. According to Brussels, there is a need to strengthen transparency, stakeholders' participation and capacity to implement reforms. Coherence of the policy-making system should be ensured through co-ordinated policy development. Among the positive remarks on the achievements in the country mentioned in the document, but also repeated by the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Federica Mogherini, last week in Podgorica, is that Montenegro fully complies, without exception, with the positions, declarations and statements of the European Union when it comes to joint foreign and security policy issues. The continued efforts of Montenegro in the promotion of regional co-operation and good neighbourly relations towards the creation of a stable and secure region have been perpetually recognised. We cherish and continuously promote the standpoint that open issues and disputes among the countries in the Balkans should be resolved within the region, in a democratic and transparent manner, in close co-operation with our EU partners and in accordance with established European standards and procedures.

Since 2010, when Montenegro gained official candidate status for membership of the EU, and more decisively from June 2012, when we started our membership negotiations with the Union, the state institutions have been permanently working on the accomplishment of planned, needed reforms, in order to bring the negotiation process to an end and become the next member of the EU. Montenegro has opened 30 negotiating chapters, temporarily closing three. During the ongoing Bulgarian European Council Presidency, we expect to open the remaining chapters, and enter the new, continued phase of closing the chapters with accomplished, agreed benchmarks. Welcoming the remarks and suggestions of partner EU institutions, the Government of Montenegro has set up clear economic development plans, relying on a set of measures to strengthen the macroeconomic fiscal and financial stability of the country, and to finalise the restructuring of the country's economy, thus raising competitiveness and increasing potential for economic growth. GDP increase in 2017 has been over 4%. Forecasted growth for the period of 2018 to 2020 is approximately 2.8%. The unemployment rate in the last quarter of 2017 was 17%. Our aim is to bring the public debt under 60% of GDP by 2020. GDP per capita, the highest in the region, is estimated at a level of around 45% of the EU average.

It is of particular importance that stable economic growth is followed by firm respect of the rule of law. The reforms in fighting corruption and organised crime are giving increasing results. We are in our third year of implementation of a new set of judicial laws. A centralised commercial court was established and reform of the misdemeanour system has been implemented. The special state prosecution department is raising the number of its indictments. Each case of organised crime and corruption also launches a financial investigation. Concrete figures are shown in the circulated documents. At the same time, we are well aware that we need to further our efforts to promote a stable track record in the functioning of the respective institutions and mechanisms, with emphases on the areas of trafficking of human beings and money laundering. The legislative and operational mechanisms in these areas are being adjusted to the actual need for more tangible results. Particular attention is being provided to the establishment of a societal environment for full media independence, freedom and professionalism. The Government has initiated changes of key legislation in this area, and we believe that we will, in partnership with our European partners and internal actors, create an improved environment for a stronger and proper role of media in our society, as one of the main pillars of democracy.

Along our road - I would avoid saying European, but our EU road - the Government of Montenegro is accentuating our focus not on dates, but on the quality of implementation of the reforms. Numerous activities strengthening the economy and rule of law and modernising public administration aim, first of all, to raise the standards of living of our citizens. The results of the EU accession process follow and the most important are to come. It is crucial that the results are felt by the people in the country. Marks by the administrators who are reading forms and making notes on the progress are welcomed. Concluding my address, I once again stress our awareness that the rest of our EU path will not be relaxed, as our road to NATO membership was not laid back. We are determined to finish this historic step successfully as well. In our endeavours, we particularly appreciate and remember good intentions and useful support coming from our friends from the EU. This support means even more when it comes from the smaller countries, which have gone through similar challenges on their way to a brighter future. I thank the committee for its attention. I hope we will have the opportunity during the envisaged questions-and-answers session to exchange views on the potential for bilateral co-operation between our friendly countries in particular areas, apart from the EU integration process.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Ambassador Qirko and the counsellor from Albania, and their colleague from Montenegro. I will not delay long because I have outlined the situation in Montenegro. I was not quite aware that the deputy ambassador was in the audience.

The Prime Minister of Albania, Edi Rama, said "don't turn your back on us" in April. We would be very supportive, as we have said in respect of Montenegro. It is important that the Balkans become members of the European Union. We are agreed on that. When one sees the geographic location, on the coast, of Albania, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, all the way in to Serbia and Kosovo, it is obvious that the region has to join. Let us get a move on. What is being done in Albania is happening in Montenegro. The judiciary is being reformed. The Venice Commission has been involved in advising on how to bring about the rule of law and democracy. That is very worthwhile. The witnesses' countries are coming out of a situation where they were held back since 1919. They were not given an opportunity to develop. The opportunities for Albania are enormous, including tourism and so on. It is a tremendous location in respect of its climate and so on.

I note the statement and work on Kosovo. The recognition of Kosovo is important. That will be an important step in the right direction. There is an open door to the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. My interpretation of members' views is that we would be very much in support of the witnesses' countries membership of the European Union and we will do the utmost to push for their membership and for security in that region. That is vital. Unless we embrace that region, the danger is that it could lapse into more problems in future. I thank the witnesses for coming. It was a worthwhile contribution. I have enjoyed listening to their views, studying their programme and studying what their Prime Minister has said. The Albanian Government is very democratic, with a 50% male and 50% female cabinet. It is progressive with regard to gender balance. I see the reforms which have taken place. They are worthwhile. As the witnesses said, it is in the interests of the people. What the European Union will do in the future of Albania and Montenegro is in the interests of their citizens. That is what the witnesses' concern is. I am delighted that they are moving in our direction, to the European Union, and I just want to see the European Union moving in their direction sooner rather than later and not to be delayed by the negotiations around Brexit.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the ambassadors for their presentations. I will deal with Albania first. The steps taken in curbing corruption and putting judicial processes in place are to be commended. Albania's abundance of natural resources is incredible and probably explains the unemployment rate. There is tremendous capacity to build a very strong economy, which would be more than welcome in the European project. The witnesses can be assured of this country's support as Albania moves forward. I am interested to see that Albania is developing sustainable energy in the region. While there are natural resources there that could probably meet Albania's energy needs, the fact that it is engaging in developing sustainable energy is really important.

My final point on Albania is that, recognising war and instability in the region in recent years, its commitment to peace and reconciliation is to be commended, admired and supported in every possible way. As we move forward into the European Union and as Albania's negotiations become more pronounced, any help we can provide should be forthcoming. Albania is clearly taking a leadership role. Hopefully, it will bring other countries along with it and we will see all Balkan states within the European project. That is very commendable. I thank the witnesses for coming here today.

With respect to Montenegro, my colleague, Senator Terry Leyden, has said it all. I appreciate greatly the witnesses coming over from the UK today to engage with us. I am a little concerned at Montenegro's unemployment rate when I see it trying to resolve its GDP problems also. I am concerned because I know the pain involved in redressing an economy with these problems. We have suffered that here for the last ten years and, thankfully, are coming out the other side. Sadly, as one tries to redress GDP issues, unemployment rates tend to grow. As such, Montenegro is going to go through a fairly painful process in the not-too-distant future. Having said that, the reward is mighty. Montenegro's people can only benefit from the measures being taken now. The European Union and its member states must support that. It is not so long ago in this country that we had a massive unemployment rate but, today, we are almost at full employment again. As a former trade union leader, it might stick in my craw but good economic management brought us back to the point of full employment and growth. It takes time. As Montenegro moves forward, the strengthening of its economy is the whole thing. I wish the country well and am delighted to do what I can in my Independent capacity here on any support we can give.

It is important that we are all taking, as political representatives, about the idea of expansion. The witnesses will have heard from the last presentation that I have concerns that as the project grows, there are diminishing marginal returns from expansion. In economic terms, those diminishing marginal returns may make it more difficult for Montenegro and Albania to capitalise on the economic benefits of moving forward. I have been in the region. The Balkans are very beautiful and I wish Albania and Montenegro well and look forward to having them as European partners there in the not-too-distant future.

Seán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want to repeat what other speakers have said. I welcome the ambassador and deputy ambassador and congratulate them on the work they have been doing and the reforms their countries have been implementing. I wish them well in their endeavours. It is good to hear that there is strong domestic support for EU membership in Albania and Montenegro. In my previous contribution, I mentioned that Ireland had benefitted greatly from membership of the European Union since joining in 1973 and we do not want to be seen to be pulling up the ladder. We have enjoyed its benefits and enlargement will enhance the Union. It is important to note that the membership of the witnesses' countries will ensure peace and stability in the region and in Europe as a whole. In particular, I congratulate Albania on the initiation or approval of accession talks, which represents great progress.

On a point of clarification, albeit it is not that important, Ireland has a policy of military neutrality and is not in NATO. We avoid military alliances. However, that has not impacted on our membership of the European Union at all. For historic reasons, it is very important for the security and so on of the witnesses' countries but as a neutral state, we also can play a very important role in the EU.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome our guests and congratulate them on their progress so far and, in particular, on their positive attitude to the European project. We wish them well in that area. There were times in the not-too-distant past when we were very concerned about what was happening in the Balkans. We were glad to see some degree of stabilisation take place initially. Matters have moved on since then and the countries are moving on the right path. I hope that when the witnesses were in the UK, they did not take on board the negativity they have there towards the European Union. People will always look back. That has been part and parcel of history. People tend to look back after a while, in particular if they have reached the far shore and are in comparative safety. They tend then to look back and say it was great in the old days. In some ways, the old days were great, but a lot of things were very negative too. A lot of things happened in the witnesses' region which were very disturbing. We watched on television and saw speeches being made in the European Parliament. I was present when the representatives of some Balkan countries broke down and cried in the European Parliament at the lack of action from the surrounding states. That is why membership of NATO is very important for Albania and Montenegro. I note that they are surrounded by the European Union as it is, with just the sea on the other side, but that is an advantage, of course. However, having learned from the experiences of the past and recognising the need to proceed in a particular direction, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. That applies to both Albania and Montenegro and in fact to the whole region. I referred earlier to the fact that it used to be regarded as the tinderbox of Europe in that things happened there which were minor in nature but which had a major negative impact not only on the immediate region but on the rest of Europe as well.

Employment and economic progress are important. One thing that tends to create problems in a democracy is that, where the freedom exists, the tendency is to protest and to sometimes go further. There is a danger that economic performance is not seen to be as good as it should be. There is a huge difference between Montenegro and Albania in terms of bilateral trade, for example. That is understandable. A small population is one of the factors. In terms of bilateral trade, the figures show Montenegro is vulnerable whereas Albania is a bigger country with a larger population. Those comparisons need to be made in these countries' efforts to achieve what they aspire to, namely, membership of the European Union. I agree with that objective and harbour no negativity towards it. It is a natural progression of the European project in relation to the whole region, including the witnesses' countries.

At a time when one country is leaving the Union, it tends to create questions. People ask whether they should go back to where they were. We should not do that under any circumstance in any part of Europe. There is nothing to be learned from the mistakes of the past except that they were mistakes. The fact is that Albania, Montenegro and ourselves, as Europeans, must remain focused on the positive outcomes which have resulted from membership of the EU for us and, in the not-too-distant future, for them.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I offer the witnesses an opportunity for a brief overview of the issues raised.

H.E. Mr. Qirjako Qirko:

I thank the Chairman. I thank the distinguished members of the committee for their kind and encouraging words on the integration of our region into the European Union. I wish to make a brief clarification as to why NATO membership is important for our region in comparison with the situation of Ireland.

A third party is also very interested in the region. It is an old dream of the Tsars and the first secretaries of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union to have a presence in the region. In the 1960s, Khruschev had a plan to build a huge naval and submarine base in Vlorë on the south coast of Albania. Perhaps the only thing for which I appreciate our dictator was that, in 1961, he broke the relationship and kicked out the Russians from the submarine.

For small countries like Albania, Montenegro or Macedonia, this protection is important. We hope that one day our neighbours, Serbia and Bosnia, will join our family because membership of NATO is important for the whole region. The situation is different from the situation in Ireland and other countries. We would like to join NATO as Albanians. As a country, our values would set a good example in the European Union. For example, Albania has not built any walls against refugees from Syria. We only have 300 refugees but we have good experience of treating people who are in need. After the Second World War, the number of Jewish people in Albania was ten times higher than the number before the war. Jewish people came from Austria and Germany and found shelter in Albania, where they were protected by Muslim people. More than 50% of Albanians are Muslim but they are liberal Muslim people. We have a code of honour called "Besa" which means that people have a responsibility for everything that happens to a person in need and a duty to protect that person. That is why nothing happened to Jewish people after the war.

In the 1990s, 700,000 people from Kosovo found shelter and protection in Albania after what Milosevic did to the population. We now have 3,000 mujahidin from Iran, the opposition to the Government of the Ayatollah, living peacefully in Albania and we are glad about that. We would like to join the European Union with a good model for how different religions can exist together. Some 30% of the population of Albania is Orthodox Christian and 20% Roman Catholic but we have never had problems in our history because we feel Albanian first and then Muslim or Christian. For us, religion is not something which divides people. Inside every religion there are values if they are respected correctly. Every kind of radicalism is negative and we would like to join what we see as our normal family with these values. It is a perfect relationship between people with different ethnicity. Some 98% of people in Albania are Albanian but we have a minority of Greeks, Macedonians and Montenegrans and we have never had trouble. Sometimes we do not know if a person belongs to a minority because they are always well accepted.

In Albania, 100% of energy comes from water sources and the Government encourages investment in this area, which is one of our main areas of investment. Tourism is an important part of our economy and, last year, 5% of GDP was from tourism. In the near future we hope to increase that and, through changes in the fiscal system, the Government is encouraging the building of four-star and five-star hotels. If someone builds one they will be free of taxes for the next ten years and there is great interest in this from different companies, including international companies.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the deputy ambassador have anything to add?

Mr. Mladen Draga?evi:

Conflicts were mentioned a couple of times. Nobody understands better than we do the consequences of the bloodshed of the 1990s in the Balkans. Montenegro was the only country which did not have armed conflict on its own territory but we felt the effects of them and the marks are still there. In some countries in the western Balkans we still feel that reconciliation is still necessary. I remind people, however, that the origins of the European Union were in the wake of the biggest conflict in the history of mankind. The idea of the European Union was born after the Second World War and the idea of enlargement and the unification of the European Union with the western Balkans will assist these countries to become better partners and friends in the near future. Even now, as potential candidate countries for membership of the EU, they are being brought together and many programmes and projects are being implemented, financed and assisted by the EU to help us to overcome the problems of the 1990s and bring us closer together.

As regards the economy, there is always a clash between spending and saving and raising GDP expenditure is directly connected with lowering unemployment, as is the case in all economies. As Deputy Durkan said, London is not such a great environment to speak about EU enlargement at the moment because most of the political actors there are looking in the opposite direction. We do not have many embassies throughout the world and we are trying to have a presence here in Dublin using our embassy in London. We hope that this visit and future visits will benefit co-operation between our countries. Small countries such as Montenegro need to be able to look up to positive examples among our partners in the European Union and to expand our co-operation, especially in areas where countries such as Ireland have expertise, such as education, agriculture and the dairy sector.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all witnesses for taking the time to be with us today for what was a very good engagement.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I compliment Albania on its work relating to Kosovo. I recall 1998 and 1999, when the country had many refugees. We sent support to Albania to assist with Kosovans. I visited a Kosovan refugee camp in Montenegro, which comprised mainly Roma people who were given educational assistance.

Despite its size, it has done more for Roma refugees than any other country.