Pat Casey (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The purpose of this session is to engage with the chairperson designate of the Housing Agency, Mr. Michael Carey, and to discuss his strategic priorities for the role and his views on the challenges currently facing the Housing Agency. The committee welcomes the opportunity to meet the chairperson designate in public session to hear his views. We trust that this serves to provide greater transparency to the process of appointments to State boards and bodies. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Carey.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee.

If, however, they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Carey to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael Carey:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the members of the joint committee for giving me the opportunity to join the meeting. I will begin by talking about my background and highlighting some of my experiences which are most relevant to the role as chairman of the Housing Agency, should I be formally appointed by the Minister.

I grew up in Cabra on the north side of Dublin. My parents had a newsagents and we lived in the rooms above the shop. I studied for a commerce degree and a master's degree in business studies at UCD in the early 1980s. Since graduating I have spent the last 35 years or so working in the food industry, initially in senior management roles in multinational food companies, including managing director of Fox’s Biscuits and managing director of Kellogg’s for the United Kingdom and Ireland. In the second half of my career to date I have been an entrepreneur and investor in the food sector, owning and managing a number of food businesses. I am executive chairman of The Company of Food, a specialist food investment company. We hold investments in around half a dozen food businesses, including a majority stake in a recent large-scale start-up biscuit manufacturing business based in Drogheda called East Coast Bakehouse. We also hold shares in a number of publicly quoted food and drink companies, both Irish and international.

Aside from my day job in the food industry, I have recently completed two terms as chairman of Bord Bia, during which I played a leadership role in building it into one of the most respected State agencies in the country. I have also held the role of chairman of the Grow Dublin Tourism Alliance. I am a member of the advisory board at Smurfit Graduate School of Business in UCD. For the past few years I have dedicated significant time to the not-for-profit sector as a co-founder and chairman of Traidlinks in Uganda, at the request of the then Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in 2007, Conor Lenihan, and as a co-founder and chairman of The Soul of Haiti Foundation. Both organisations are dedicated to the provision of livelihoods in these developing countries.

In the area of homelessness I have assisted in designing and implementing innovative solutions to engage business leaders in supporting charities working to tackle homelessness, specifically the Food for Simon programme, where approximately 20 Irish food companies provide food products free of charge for the Dublin Simon Community, as well as arranging capital funding to build transitional housing facilities.

In all of these State agency and foundation-charity roles I have always waived any fee and personally funded all expenses associated with carrying out these roles. I would, if appointed to this or any other role, continue that practice.

Given that background, there are a number of reasons I can make a genuinely meaningful contribution to meeting this challenge. I have extensive experience in successfully running organisations and specifically chairing the boards of both private and State organisations. By applying this experience in the role of chairman of the Housing Agency I will focus on optimising the performance of the organisation, ensuring appropriate resources are allocated to its key priorities and that the contribution of its board members is optimised. I will also ensure it is run to the highest standards of corporate governance, in line with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies.

As an outsider in this sector, I can offer two specific benefits over somebody who is more deeply involved in it. First, I believe I can offer some fresh thinking, without any baggage. Second, I have no conflict of interest and believe I can engage with all of the stakeholders with some credibility. In my current day job, overseeing investments in the food industry, I am in the fortunate position to have some flexibility. I confirm that I have the time available to fulfil the role fully, regardless of how much time is required. Having said that, I am very clear that it is a non-executive chairmanship role and I will work in a manner that will allow the executive leadership of the Housing Agency to do its job, as I have done in previous roles.

The challenges facing our society in housing are significant and socially damaging. The recent increases in the numbers impacted on by homelessness, to the shockingly high level of 10,000, as reported in February; the large numbers of families in mortgage arrears; the challenges of cost and affordability of rent and house purchase; the rate of supply of both social and private housing, given the extensive numbers on housing lists and the increasing demands expected in the coming years, and the need for optimum use of vacant homes are all fundamental issues that must be addressed, now more than ever. It is clear that all of the key stakeholders share a desire to fix these problems, although there seem to be some fundamental differences in views on how best to ensure they will be addressed. There are many barriers in the way of the making the desired progress. As chairman of the Housing Agency, I will seek to ensure the organisation will play a full role in delivering solutions and overcoming these barriers. I believe the agency is well placed to be a world-class knowledge base for housing policy and practice, in working closely with the Department, the local authorities and the approved housing bodies to develop and implement policies that will achieve the right results. The agency can play a positive and substantial role in addressing the current challenges and I am determined to personally provide a leadership contribution to ensuring genuine progress is made and that the Government policies captured in Rebuilding Ireland will be implemented efficiently.

I do not come to the role with a simplistic belief there are easy solutions. I do not come with fixed views on how the Housing Agency should act to meet its objectives. My initial priorities in the role, should I be appointed, will be to initiate and oversee a review of the role and purpose of the agency, to refresh its statement of strategy, to clarify its key priorities and to ensure its resources are being optimised in order that it will become one of the most respected State agencies. The output of the review will be very clear in intended deliverables. I will seek to ensure the Housing Agency has a high level of engagement with all of its key stakeholders and that the views and inputs from all perspectives of the issues are captured in the thinking behind its programmes. Achieving a clear understanding of the roles of, and relationships with, each of the stakeholders and sister agencies will make the efforts of the Housing Agency more effective and avoid duplication of effort. I will also focus on ensuring the metrics used by the agency are appropriate and that the data being used are robust. I will aim to focus on specific deliverable outputs of the agency, ensuring clarity in what it aims to achieve and in its performance against these targets.

In short, I intend to focus the organisation on getting the job done, applying a robust and professional management process. As I become fully briefed on all of the current issues and challenges facing the Housing Agency and we finalise a revised statement of strategy, I look forward to engaging closely with the committee in whatever manner it considers appropriate. I am happy to commit the necessary time and energy to the role. I hope that if I am appointed, I can make a positive contribution.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Carey who has a very impressive CV. He has answered very clearly and well one of the questions I had intended to ask him as to what is his vision for the agency. As I am conscious that we are in public session, I want to set out my understanding of the role of the committee as it relates to Mr. Carey's position. In accordance with the provisions of Dáil Standing Order 85(6)(B), joint committees have the power to require the chairperson designate of a body or agency under the aegis of the relevant Department, prior to his or her appointment, to attend before them to discuss his or her strategic priorities for the role. It is worth saying for anyone watching the proceedings that it is not an interview to determine the suitability or otherwise of a candidate. It is not the function of the committee to block the nomination. It is ultimately the responsibility of the Minister to appoint the candidate. That is worth saying, as I am conscious that the public looking in which takes a great interest in these matters might not know it.

I have looked at Mr. Carey's CV. I am on the Agricultural Panel and as such know a lot about the work of Bord Bia which I mentioned yesterday in the Seanad during a debate on agriculture.

I acknowledge the enormous work of Bord Bia, which has excelled under the leadership, stewardship, focus and strategic thinking of Mr. Carey. It has been always a good organisation, but it has grown and built itself up. It has enormous budgets to do its work. When I say that, I do not mean to take from the professionalism, focus and amazing achievements of Mr. Carey and his team. I do not want to dwell on agriculture today, other than to acknowledge Mr. Carey's role in Bord Bia. Most of Mr. Carey's enterprise and investment experience has been in the food sector. That has been his key area. He is an entrepreneur. I do not have any difficulty with his business model. I want to put a few questions to him. I will not ask all the questions I had intended to ask because some of them have been comprehensively addressed. I ask him to share a few points with the committee in response to the questions I am about to ask. Why did Mr. Carey submit an expression of interest for this job? When did he do so? Can he outline the selection process he underwent to be appointed to this role? How relevant are his qualifications and experiences to this specific role, which relates predominantly to housing? I acknowledge that he has many qualifications and a great deal of experience, but ultimately he is here as the chairman-designate of the Housing Agency.

I was impressed by what Mr. Carey said when he spoke about how he will go about his immediate work. It is clear that he will have to home in to a greater extent on the demands and challenges the agency faces. He spoke about putting in place a robust and professional system to ensure the agency delivers on its targets and objectives. I am happy to hear those targets and objectives will be examined and monitored. I think that is really positive. I would like to ask Mr. Carey where he envisages the organisation will go. What would he consider to be success? He is bringing all his experience of management structures, etc., to this major challenge. How would he like to see his role? What would he consider to represent success when he is heading out of this role? I have outlined a few of my thoughts on this matter. I acknowledge Mr. Carey's vast management experience and professionalism. His CV relates predominantly to food, agriculture and Bord Bia. I acknowledge that all of that is excellent. I would like to hear how he got interested in this position. Who approached him? How did he express his expression of interest? What were the dates involved? I ask him to share some of that with the committee. What is his ultimate vision? What would he consider as success in this role when he is heading out of it?

Mr. Michael Carey:

I thank the Senator for his questions and his comments about Bord Bia. I agree it is an extraordinary organisation. He asked when I first engaged with this process. I initially engaged with it approximately a month ago. I did not apply when the role was advertised under the Public Appointments Service system because I was still in my role as chairman of Bord Bia at that time. I stepped down from that role, after six and a half years, in the past month. The process I have gone through has included a number of discussions and meetings with the Minister. I approached the Minister. I actively showed interest in taking this role. I believe my background, my experience and my ability to manage and lead boards to provide some structure and to focus on results can be applied to this issue, which is of huge importance to Ireland. I think all of those skills and experiences are entirely transferable. I met the executive director of the agency in recent days. Other than that, I have not been engaged with the organisation. I have a reasonable level of understanding of what the agency does, what its role is and how it plays its part in solving this problem. I think a very detailed engagement will be necessary in the coming weeks to get fully up to speed with those issues. The Deputy concluded by asking how I would define success at the end of my term in this role if I am appointed to it. I would like to see real, substantial and genuine progress in addressing the major issues that are facing Irish society in the area of housing and homelessness. I outlined all of those issues in my initial statement. Clear targets for the agency need to be agreed. The agency needs to have the right resources and the right engagement with people to give it a chance of being an outstanding agency that fully plays its part in moving along this problem.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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To be clear, my understanding is that Mr. Carey did not initially go through the public expression of interest for this post. He is telling us that having reflected on the matter, and having thought about how much his vast experience could offer to this role, he approached the Minister approximately a month ago to express his interest in this position. That is where we are today.

Mr. Michael Carey:

Correct.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Carey .

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I would like to address a number of comments and questions to Mr. Carey. Obviously, he comes from a business and corporate background rather than a housing sector background. The idea that we need a business model running the Housing Agency is a problem for me straightaway. In his introductory remarks, Mr. Carey did not give any indication of his views on the housing crisis and the housing situation. If he does not mind me saying so, his remarks were more about his personal business background. How does he feel about public housing? Does he feel there should be more social and public housing? If so, how would that be funded? What are the current barriers to resolving the housing crisis and, in particular, to providing affordable housing for people? Last week, we all saw the spectre of people queueing for days on end for housing in Hansfield in west Dublin.

I would like Mr. Carey to give his views on certain comments. I am not asking him to comment on another individual. Does he think there are people gaming the system? Does he think homelessness is a normal thing? Does he think homelessness in Ireland is low by international standards? Does he think the Government is doing nothing wrong? These crucial questions arose during the term in office of the previous chairman of the agency. I would like to hear more about Mr. Carey's views on them.

I do not know whether Mr. Carey has read the deliberations of the special Oireachtas Committee on Housing and Homelessness, which was convened in the summer of 2016. One of the key issues to emerge at the forum was the need to ramp up the provision of social housing. The EU fiscal rules represent barriers to that. Attempts have been made to find off-balance sheet models, but that may not be as feasible now that the approved housing bodies are considered to be on-balance sheet. I am not saying the chairman of the Housing Agency has to grapple with these issues. They are political questions. I do not expect Mr. Carey to resolve the housing crisis. There are critical issues in the housing and homelessness sector. I would like to hear whether Mr. Carey has a sympathetic view towards those things, or leans more towards the business view that the private sector is where we are going to solve this problem.

Mr. Michael Carey:

First, I suggest that a business approach to solving this problem can be a very valid approach to providing a structure and a level of professionalism that can focus on results. A business process can apply to any social issue. Perhaps business people get a bad press sometimes for some of the ways they behave. I do not believe a professional management approach to solving this problem is inappropriate. I think the structures and processes that apply to running a business well can apply in this case. I intend to apply those standards.

The Deputy asked me about some of the previous comments that have been made. I have considerable sympathy with the substantial numbers of people who are affected by the issue of homelessness.

Huge numbers of people are impacted by the issue of homelessness. It is not normal and should not be acceptable. It should not be assumed to be the way things will always be. It is wrong that we have this problem and it should be fixed using a mix of solutions. Public housing is, unquestionably, a very significant part of the solution. The private sector has a major role to play in delivering some of the necessary outcomes. They need to be appropriately aligned with the right targets.

The issue of affordability of housing is one of the biggest challenges facing the country today. There are still major issues around the cost of building and around the use of land and how that is managed. I hope that I can influence thinking in a way that gets the results and the sort of outcome that everybody wants. I do not think having a business approach means that one cannot have sympathy for, or a genuine understanding of, the problems associated with homelessness. That professional approach is the right way to do it. It needs to be done in the right environment.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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How much public housing does Mr. Carey think there should be as a proportion of the housing supply? Has he studied the report of the housing committee?

Mr. Michael Carey:

I have not studied the report and at this time I cannot give a number on the split. It would be just picking a number out of the air today. I do not want to do that. I want to take the-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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It is not something Mr. Carey has thought about.

Mr. Michael Carey:

It is a significant part but I do not want to quote a number. I do not have a figure to give to the Deputy. I am not going to make up numbers sitting here. The issue is-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Is it a majority or a minority?

Mr. Michael Carey:

I ask that the Deputy give me the time to get immersed fully in those issues. The level of briefing that it is necessary to come to a valid conclusion is something I would focus on should I be appointed to this role.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I would have thought that was a pretty general basic thing that many people would have a view on, even before being appointed.

Mr. Michael Carey:

A number on-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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A proportion of what housing should be public and-----

Mr. Michael Carey:

I have said a significant proportion. I do not know what the correct number is. I do not have the specific data behind that. I think that setting targets and setting numbers would be inappropriate at this stage.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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To be fair to Mr. Carey, he has said that he would like time to engage with the Housing Executive and go into that detailed discussion with it in the next few days. He has only been here a couple of days and he has asked for time to have that engagement and those briefing sessions. It is only fair not to put him on the spot for figures like that.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Can I just say one last thing? Every housing commentator and analyst at this point has said we need a huge increase in public housing. I was surprised that Mr. Carey had not come to a conclusion on how much.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I think he said unquestionably that it is a good proportion. It would be unfair to get a figure from Mr. Carey today. I call Deputy O'Brien.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Carey is welcome. From reading his CV and listening to his opening statement, I believe, for what it is worth, that he is eminently qualified to do this job. We need fresh thinking in this area. It is appropriate to give Mr. Carey time to actually frame that thinking. I am sure he has his personal views on things as well. He will also, however, be restricted somewhat by the policy decisions made within the Oireachtas and by the funds allocated to this sector. There is a job for us to do in the Oireachtas if we follow what Deputy Coppinger said. Social housing is just one aspect. The level of funding needs to be greatly increased in that area because the witness could give a figure today of 40,000 if he wanted to. However, he could not deliver them unless the funding was given by the Government. That is a policy decision. It is our job to equip Mr. Carey with the tools to be able to do his job.

Looking at the Housing Agency itself, it says that its vision is to enable everyone to live in good quality, affordable homes in sustainable communities. It states that its mission is to be housing experts driven by an understanding of the central role housing plays in people's quality of life and life changes. It says its values are independent influence, quality expertise, innovation and solution focused, respected reputation and collaboration. However, if we look at the vision and mission in plain black and white on a piece of paper it shows how far we are away from that at the moment. I refer to how serious the situation we as a country are in. That is why I believe that fresh thinking is needed and business acumen and expertise is needed.

I ask Mr. Carey, should he be appointed to the role, which I hope he will be, to challenge the status quo when he believes it necessary. There is an element, and I have found it, of some silo thinking on this. We need a whole of Government, a whole of agency approach and a whole of party approach as well to fix this. To do that, some very difficult decisions will be required but we need people to step up. I have been critical of policies in some areas but I will support policies where I see them as constructive. This is not a crisis; it is an emergency. Our homeless figures are growing day by day and the number of children in emergency accommodation is over 3,500. That is unacceptable in a modern republic and in a wealthy society.

The other aspect is affordability and giving hope. I refer to giving hope to those people working 40 and 50 hours a week, paying taxes and trying to save for mortgages. Prices have run away from them. They are basically going to be the new "generation rent". They are going to be paying other people's mortgages and paying institutions' property funds. We have got to give hope again to people. That is why Mr. Carey's role is going to be crucially important. When he gets his feet under the table, at that stage it would be appropriate for him to come back to talk to us about policy. I, as my party's spokesman, with my colleague Deputy Casey, will be outlining our policies and priorities as the Chair, Deputy Coppinger and others will do. I ask Mr. Carey to take a collaborative approach and to reach out to see what the best solutions are. We cannot afford time on issue.

The targets set by local authorities, published today in respect of social housing, show how far away we are from making any degree of progress into the social housing lists. We have to look at rent affordability, mortgages, mortgage arrears, which Mr. Carey mentioned in his statement and which is still a big issue, repossessions and so on. When he is in the job, I ask Mr. Carey to look back every day at the vision to enable everyone to live in good quality, affordable homes in sustainable communities. That should drive everything that we do. I am not going to ask specific questions about what he should or should not do. When we quantify a problem, which we all can, it can be fixed. I firmly believe this is fixable. We just need to re-energise the approach taken. That is why I think Mr. Carey's appointment will move towards that. When he gets the job, I ask him not take everything he hears for granted and to challenge the status quo. His CV and his experience show he does that. That is why I know that he is eminently qualified to do the job and I hope that he is appointed without further delay. I wish him all the very best and look forward to working with him to deliver solutions. That is what this committee is committed to doing.

Mr. Michael Carey:

I agree that it is an enormous challenge. There are issues at every strand of this problem that need to be addressed from homelessness through to social housing provision, affordability of rent and purchasing of mortgage arrears. The Housing Agency has a real and substantial role to play in all those areas. Ensuring there is absolute clarity about what the agency is supposed to be delivering and that it delivers it in an efficient and effective way will become my obsession. I have spent time with the homeless agencies and on the streets on the soup runs. I really care about this issue and I want to be part of the solution at that level. There are huge issues around affordability that the country needs to resolve for lots of reasons, including business and social reasons.

The pricing of homes going out of the reach of so many people is such a fundamental problem facing the country that it must be resolved. I wholeheartedly commit to coming back when those views are more robust, and when there is some greater clarity on the scope and role I believe the agency should have and how it should be delivering. I will apply those business approaches and those techniques that have worked in other areas for me, including in Government agencies. I will apply them in this area to the best of my ability.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for having to step out to attend a meeting of the Business Committee. I missed Mr. Carey's opening statement, but I had read it. I do not question his rationale for applying for this post. I do not question his ability in any shape or form. Deputy Darragh O'Brien is right in saying this needs energy, enthusiasm. We need people who want results and who do not stop unless results happen. This committee is very committed. We meet on average two or three times a week. While members might differ on policies or how they might come to fruition, we all want the same results, which is that every person should have a safe place to call home.

Following this engagement with the chairperson designate, Mr. Carey, a letter will issue to the Minister with the full official transcript of this discussion held in public session without comment in any way as to the performance or general suitability of the nominated chairperson for the position. The responsibility rests with relevant Minister to confirm the nomination or not. I wish Mr. Carey well. Should he succeed, I look forward to ongoing engagement with him on a regular basis.

The next meeting will take place at 12 noon on Tuesday, 24 April 2018 to discuss our policy on housing for older people.