Ms Jennifer McCarthy Flynn:

I echo the point made by Ms Ní Chaithnía. It is not clear what equality impact is being sought by some of these measures. We can measure an output or metric but why the Department chose this and what it is seeking as an overall equality or gender equality outcome is not clear. We could speculate on apprenticeships and theorise as to the reasons they are a good focus but it is not clear what the specific drive of all the Departments is with their metrics. That is probably an important point, which may relate to the fact that this very new. Outputs and metrics are always easier to identify, whereas the type of long-term social change needed for equality is much harder to identify. It is almost as if this is a case of wanting to support the first step by providing a way to measure outputs. We now need to overtly link this to an outcome we are seeking. As Ms Ní Chaithnía stated, this is a much longer-term issue which requires a type of gender expertise that is probably not yet present. We hope this expertise is being built through the process of doing this and we would like to support that. While linking the short-term piece with a longer-term piece over a set period is slightly frustrating, this is a process.