Mr. Stephen Mulvany:

Senator Burke had a question about what percentage of section 39 organisations' revenue costs would involve pay. As we said in our opening statement, €787 million is what we provided in 2017 as financial assistance to section 38 organisations. I would certainly agree with some of the comments. It is likely that pay costs for typical section 39 organisations would be at least 80% of their total running costs. In some cases the figure may be higher given that they predominantly involve staff, and consumables and external supplies will not be significant unless the organisation has a policy of outsourcing. We think that 80% or more of the funding we provide is used for pay costs.

I agree with Deputy Kelleher that it is the case that in many instances sections 38 and 39 organisations fundraise for capital. The HSE more typically provides revenue costs.

There is some conflation around the HIQA piece. It and the registration of residential facilities were more important issues in recent years than the cuts in 2010. We have to remember that, as one of the committee members mentioned, there is a certain total pot of available resources to the Government and health. Within that, a pot is available to section 39 organisations and our services. What we spend on dealing with the appropriate outcomes of, for example, HIQA inspections often means incurring additional staffing costs, that is, additional pairs of hands in an organisation.

A fundamental choice always has to be made, something which is not unique to this situation, between the numbers of staff an organisation wishes to have versus the hourly rate of pay for those staff. We have been very clear that there is an issue which needs to be resolved. Our intention is that this process will provide data to allow decision-makers to make calls on the appropriate phased restoration or resolution to this issue. We agree it needs to be resolved. While those involved are not public servants, they are providing important public services. There is no dispute in that context.