Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Mr. Cardiff spoke about young farmers and proofing schemes and programmes. I will give an example of how the delivery of funding can go very far off the rails. One could go to an agricultural college 30 years ago for a period of not even 12 months. One started in September and did one's exam in June and one got one's green certificate. All that was required of one was to get one's green certificate. To get one's green certificate today, one has to go to agricultural college for two years and one must go to a placement farm for 12 weeks. One must really jump through hoops to come away with the same piece of paper that one could get very easily 30 years ago. The amount of money and benefits that were in place 30 years ago were far greater for that young farmer than today. One has to do a lot more today to get this magic piece of paper but one gets far less as a result. That is what upsets people in the farming community. I know it is not under Mr. Cardiff's remit, but the court is proofing the money and the various programmes.

However, members of the farming community in Ireland are treated like criminals. If a farmer makes a mistake filling out a form, or doing anything, a big finger of suspicion is pointed at him or her. If anyone else makes a mistake filling out a form, that is called a mistake. When one is involved in farming and receiving money, one is treated like a criminal.

I will give a further example of how crazy the whole thing has become. I am currently dealing with a commonage in which there were eight farmers. For three days, the eight farmers fought to keep a fire out of their land. The fire brigade was there every day, and they did their best to fight this fire and stop it from coming onto their land. It eventually did come onto it, and their land was burned. Legal restrictions applied at this time of year. Remember, they had been killing themselves trying to keep it out. What was the first thing the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine did? It stopped their payments.

I went to the Department and said that this was crazy and wrong. I pointed out that the Department was penalising people who were coughing and choking in the attempt to keep this fire out of their land. They did not start it but they did try to stop it. The Department's answer to me was that the officials were terrified of being audited. They were afraid of the consequences if it came to light that this land was burned illegally and money had been given without the farmers lodging an appeal. Even though the Department knew that the farmers should have received their money, it stopped the payments. That way, the only thing the farmer could do in response was submit an appeal, and the Department would have its paperwork right it was audited. That is what it was down to; being ready for an audit.

Where does common sense come into situations like that? That is the reality. The witnesses are doing their job excellently. They are charged with making sure that there is value for money, that there is no wastage and that the money is properly received. Sometimes, however, the things that happen in the middle lose all touch with reality. The incident of the commonage fire is a classic example of bureaucracy gone mad.

The other public representatives here, especially people who represent rural areas like my own, really know what I am talking about. I am sure the witnesses do too. I am sure they have heard these examples throughout their careers, but it is an interesting thing for them to know. I ask Mr. Murphy in his new role, when dealing with people who might not have the same common sense as him, to try to impart a little bit of it upon them. He can always give them the example of the farmers fighting a fire for three days only to have their payments stopped. They still have not been paid. That is just an example.