Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Citizens' Assembly and the experts. We would do them a disservice to start categorising them. We had people in who were experts in their field. They would find it odd if they were categorised in the way that some people at this committee have done, which is unfair. One of the things I have been asked on several occasions is whether I have changed my mind as a consequence of being a member of the committee. I have not on the constitutional matter. I voted not to put the amendment into the Constitution in 1983 and I have retained that position. This is something that should be legislated for. It should form no part of the Constitution. For that reason, I favour repeal and not replace, and I think it should be repeal simpliciter.

It was a very different Ireland in 1983. Citizens are way ahead on this particular matter and they are not immune to seeing the number of women who are accessing pills online, not within a medical environment, and the number of women who are travelling. There is a terrific inconsistency with having in the Constitution the right to travel and information and turning a blind eye to the fact that there is criminality attached to abortion on this side of the Irish Sea.

The Citizens' Assembly has done its work, and I am really surprised by the point that Deputy Fitzpatrick made about what this two-stage process did not do. Anyone who followed the Citizens' Assembly saw the balance of the interest groups. We did not repeat the process because we paid attention to it. I am surprised that he is making that point because it is simply missing much of the work that was done and the large body of testimony delivered.

The representatives from Terminations for Medical Reasons made the point that the 13th amendment, which refers to the right to travel and information, saved lives in this country, not the eighth amendment. It is a shameful thing to hear because health care services in other jurisdictions looked after women in very stressful situations. Women are not disconnected people. They are wives, mothers, daughters and sisters. It is not just women who are interested in this issue. It is a public interest matter and rightly so.

Dr. Peter Boylan stated the Citizens' Assembly vote:

clearly recommends that the Oireachtas deal with the question of termination by legislation rather than through the Constitution. I entirely concur with this conclusion, but I would add that legislation needs to be supported by regulation with regard to clinics and hospitals, and by the Medical Council and An Bord Altranais.

That is something to which we could usefully point in terms of some of our recommendations.

On the criminalisation issue, I note that Dr. Rhona Mahony, among others, made the point that at present, women must have a substantial risk of dying before they qualify for termination of pregnancy. People asked if it was a 10%, 20% or 50% risk of dying. I would rather have an obstetrician making a decision on medical grounds than having to put a barrister in a position that he or she should not be in. Dr Mahony went on to state, "Failure to adhere to this is punishable by a 14-year custodial sentence for both the woman and her doctor." That is absolutely wrong. The whole issue of criminalisation has to be dealt with, and I want to see it in the report.

Members heard from Professor Veronica O'Keane, who told us that pregnancy is associated with increased anxiety and depressive symptoms, and that the risk of depression is higher than at any other point in her life. When she was asked about the cases that she worries about at night she spoke about people being very vulnerable and being barely able to get home after meeting her, never mind being in a position to travel. It was quite descriptive and is part of the reason we should not separate physical health from mental health. The evidence was very convincing.

I do not like the idea that we are looking at the Citizens' Assembly recommendations as a list from which we decide on how we will deal with this issue, as so doing almost eliminates all the testimony members heard. The testimony we heard was very useful. Not a day went by in this committee in which we did not learn something that was of real value and that should be incorporated into our thinking in the future.

We heard from Tom O'Malley on the legal issues. He told us that it takes 865 days, or two and a half years, to prosecute rape. At what level is that determined before people are re-victimised? That is a critical issue in terms of how this is dealt with. I believe that a gestation period on request is the way to deal with that and avoiding re-vicitimising those who have been raped or in cases of incest.

The Citizens' Assembly report was very helpful. An enormous amount of work went into it. While it offers guidance, I certainly would not favour what was recommended in terms of how the issue should be handled from a constitutional point of view. A straightforward yes or no question, ultimately decided upon by the citizens of Ireland, is the correct way to go forward. Certain things were recommended that we could consider, but it is very difficult to see how they could be legislated for. We have to make some recommendations and do some work in that area.

The ancillary recommendations are by no means minor. The contributors from the Netherlands were fascinating. The Netherlands has low abortion rates. The holistic approach, in terms of proper education, proper contraception and the reflective times, was very interesting. Looking at how things work in other countries was certainly instructive and very useful.

The political consequences of this debate for ourselves should be put aside. The most important thing is that we do right by the women of Ireland who require health care when they are pregnant. One of the things that has stuck with me was the discussion about constitutional law with Mary O'Toole senior counsel, who discussed the eighth amendment. She reiterated the point that the only time that a woman is considered in terms of rights was when her right to life was at risk. What husband would want that for his wife? What child would want that for their mother? What mother would want that for her daughter? That is how horrific this is. We must keep this centre stage. The right to health is a human right. Professor Binchy, when I made that point to him, acknowledged that the right to health is a human right. It cannot be a human right which ceases when a woman is pregnant.

I have not changed my mind on the constitutional issue but I certainly feel I have had a real education on the range of different things we should be considering. It has been really useful process from that point of view. I also thank the committee members. It has been a good committee to work on and I have been on a few of them.