Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the first part of the meeting the witnesses will be Ms Marie Crawley, Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi and Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi. I extend a warm welcome to them and we look forward to hearing the presentations and engaging with them on the current position in Palestine. We will hear opening statements before going into a question and answer session with members of the committee.

Before beginning I remind members, witnesses and those in the Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference, even on silent mode, with the recording equipment in the committee room.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee.

If they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that where possible they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Ms Crawley and her colleagues to make their opening statements.

Ms Marie Crawley:

On behalf of Sadaka - the Ireland Palestine Alliance, I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting our guests from Palestine and Jordan to address the committee today. I will introduce the speakers, who will then proceed to give statements on the issue.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi is a Palestinian physician, social, political, human rights and peace activist and politician who serves as secretary general of the Palestinian National Initiative. He has been a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council since 2006 and is also a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee. In 2007, Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi was Minister of Information in the first national unity government in Palestinian history. He was a presidential candidate in the elections of 2005 as a representative of the Palestinian National Initiative on an anti-corruption and pro-democracy platform, achieving second place behind President Mahmoud Abbas with almost one third of the total votes. He is an outspoken advocate of internal reform, an international spokesperson for the Palestinian cause and a leading figure in the non-violent peaceful struggle against the occupation. Dr. Marghouthi is one of the most active grassroots leaders in Palestine. He has made an extraordinary contribution to initiatives which peacefully challenge the ongoing Israeli occupation of Palestine as well as efforts to build the institutional framework of Palestinian civil society and promote the principles of internal democracy and good governance.

Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi has served in several leadership positions in Jordan and the United Nations, most recently as the Under Secretary General and executive secretary of the United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia. Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi resigned her post in 2017 when she refused to withdraw a seminal report on the suffering of Palestinians under Israeli occupation. The report had concluded, based on overwhelming evidence, that Israel has established an apartheid regime that oppresses and dominates the Palestinian people whether they live in the Palestinian territory occupied in 1967, in Israel or in the diaspora. Previously, Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi served as director of the Regional Bureau for Arab States with the UN Development Programme, initiating projects to promote good governance, human rights and human development in Arab countries. She was the principal architect of the pioneering Arab human development report series and has received numerous international prizes. Before joining the UN Development Programme, Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi served in senior government posts in Jordan, including Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Industry and Trade and Minister of Planning. She also served as Senator in the upper house of the Jordanian Parliament. Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi holds a bachelors degree in economics from the American University of Beirut as well as a masters degree in economics and a PhD in system science from Portland State University in Oregon. She has received an honorary doctorate, doctor of humane letters, from the American University of Cairo in recognition of her important regional initiatives in education, women's rights, civic engagement and economic growth. In December 2009, the Financial Timeslisted Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi among the top 50 people who shaped the decade.

I must offer apologies for Mr. Daniel Levy who unfortunately, for personal reasons, had to return to London. He would welcome the opportunity to return and deliver his part of the presentation to the committee at a later stage. Dr. Barghouthi will present the opening statement.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

First, I thank the committee for receiving us and I thank the Irish people, whom the committee represents, for their warm welcome and the great feeling of solidarity we feel with the Palestinian cause and the Palestinian rights to freedom and independence.

During the last 25 years Palestinians were pressured by the international community to give up the dream of having a one-state solution, a single democratic state where everybody would live together in equality. We were pressured to accept a two-state solution, the decision which was made by the United Nations in 1947. It decided that there should be a Palestinian state on no less than 44% of the land of Palestine. We came to negotiations. It has been 25 years since negotiations started. The Palestinian Liberation Organization and other structures completely concentrated on a non-violent approach and on negotiations. During these 25 years, as the members will see from some of the slides that will be distributed to them, instead of having peace, freedom and independence we witnessed an increase of illegal settlement activity, from 111,000 settlers in 1993 to more than 750,000 settlers today. We have seen the transformation of the military occupation, which is the longest in modern history, into a system of apartheid. It is a far worse system of discriminatory apartheid than what prevailed in South Africa at one time.

We have witnessed the continuation of the deprivation of 6 million Palestinian refugees of their right to go home, the right to return to the places from which they were displaced in 1948 in one of the worst forms of ethnic cleansing. Today, things are getting worse because the Israeli Government feels it has impunity to, and is above, international law. It feels it can violate international humanitarian law with impunity as well. The Israeli public, unfortunately, is increasingly turning towards extremism and is electing racist governments.

This situation is intolerable. It is that way because the Israeli Government and the Israeli people are benefitting from the occupation. It is a profitable occupation and a profitable system of apartheid. This cannot be changed except in two ways - Palestinian struggle to change the balance of power and international solidarity with the Palestinian people. Palestinians have only one of two options. They either turn to violence or stick to the non-violent approach, which we are choosing. However, that non-violent approach will not succeed unless there are strong international activities in support of the Palestinian people. That is why we urge Ireland, a country that also suffered from colonialism and an oppressive colonialist system and a country that understands people's struggle for freedom, to make its contribution to supporting the Palestinian struggle.

It can do so first by immediate recognition of the Palestinian state. That recognition should be made as soon as possible because it makes a difference. Ireland should be in the avant-garde of countries that take that responsibility. Second, we urge Ireland to pass legislation that forbids the import of products produced by an occupying power in an occupied territory. This would apply to all occupied territories anywhere in the world and specifically to the occupied territories in Palestine. Preventing settlement products from reaching this market and boycotting such products would be a great contribution to supporting justice, the principles of international law and to supporting Ireland's own laws. We also hope there will be no form of military co-operation with Israel as a government that is occupying another country and a state that, unfortunately, is practising a profound system of apartheid and discrimination.

My colleague, Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi, will explain further the aspects of the apartheid system that Israel has created.

Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi:

My colleague, Dr. Barghouthi, has covered the suffering of Palestinians under direct Israeli military occupation and rule. I will address Israel's violations of international law and how Israel robs all Palestinians, wherever they live, of their freedoms and universally acknowledged human rights, including the right to self-determination and the right to justice.

A report published in March 2017 by the United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia while I was its executive secretary examined Israeli policies and practices towards the Palestinian people in its entirety and determined on the basis of scholarly inquiry and overwhelming evidence, that Israel employs policies and practices that oppress and dominate the Palestinians wherever they live - under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, as refuges abroad and as citizens of Israel itself. Those policies discriminate against Palestinians because of their religion and national origin for the benefit of another racial group, Jewish Israelis.

The report concluded that such policies and practices amount to the crime of apartheid as per the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. In addition to imposing an apartheid regime over the Palestinians, which is a crime against humanity, Israel is also in violation of the United Nations Charter, Security Council resolutions, international human rights law and international humanitarian law. By building settlements in the Occupied Territories, Israel has also flouted its obligations as the occupying power under the Fourth Geneva Convention as confirmed by the International Court of Justice.

The international community's failure to hold Israel accountable for its violations of international law, including possible crimes against humanity such as apartheid, has allowed this injustice to fester causing immense human suffering. Seventy years is too long for any country to flout international law without facing consequences. Building settlements in occupied territories is a crime. The produce of these settlements should be prohibited from entering international markets and not just labelled.

I was pleased to meet Senator Frances Black on Tuesday and to learn that she has prepared draft legislation with Sadaka that will be published in the coming weeks on banning the produce of illegal settlements established by any occupying power. Passing such a Bill would send a strong message to the world - to the oppressors and the oppressed, to the occupiers and the occupied - that Ireland stands fully in support with international law and that it is willing to start by enforcing it domestically in compliance with its constitutional principles and domestic laws.

Subjecting an entire people to an apartheid regime should not be allowed. Apartheid is a crime against humanity and comes second to genocide in criminality under international law. The perpetrators should not be aided and abetted; they should be held accountable. A first step in that direction would be for this committee to consider forming a working group or an investigation panel to confirm beyond reasonable doubt that Israeli policies and practices against the Palestinian people amount to apartheid.

Ireland, a country that struggled against and prevailed over foreign occupation and domination, a country known and respected for its unwavering commitment to the ideals of freedom and justice, can play a pivotal role in bringing justice to Palestine. As an active member of the EU and the community of nations, it can insist on the strict and prompt implementation of international law in order to arrive at a durable peace that sees two peoples living together on the basis of real equality. This durable peace will only be achieved when justice is achieved.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses; we have met previously. Deputy Crowe and I are also members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. In that capacity we met another Palestinian delegation yesterday. Some of today's discussion adds to what we heard yesterday. Yesterday was about looking at how the Good Friday Agreement can act as an example or model. It is very obvious that certain elements are missing in the Palestinian situation. Here a number of governments were involved - our Government, the British Government and the United States Government. They took a very personal involvement in it. In addition our diaspora in the United States were influential. The United States will not be an ally to the Palestinians in this case. Is there an alternative that can be that driver in the way that the United States was the driver that contributed to bringing about peace in our country?

I have been in Palestine a few times, most recently in September, and have had the opportunity to meet some political figures from both Fatah and Hamas. We discussed how that political vacuum has led to so much more humiliation and indignity, and so much more settlement building. Everywhere I went I was struck by the extent of the settlement building and the indignity brought about because of the wall and the restrictions on travel.

It was good to hear that just after that a ceasefire was called, and Fatah and Hamas are working on reconciliation, a political plan and a vision. I ask for the witnesses' comments on the need for a really strong political movement in Palestine that can be the driver of this.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses. It is a pleasure to have them addressing the committee. I thank Sadaka for the work it does here on behalf of the Palestinians.

The issue of Palestine and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is always to the forefront of this committee's work. It is also to the forefront in Fianna Fáil. Unfortunately, today the witnesses have painted a very bleak picture and one of which we are acutely aware. Dr. Barghouthi outlined the increase in settlers in the Occupied Territory, which confirms my view that the longer this is allowed to continue, the less realistic a two-state solution becomes. Where do Dr. Barghouthi and Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi see things going from now? I very much welcome the formation of a unity government in Palestine. It is very important that there is one message coming from Palestine.

Earlier this year in Cairo I met the secretary general of the Arab League. While we there for other reasons, at every opportunity they mentioned to us the importance of the recognition of the state of Palestine and using that as a springboard within Europe to move Israel towards talks. I would like to see that happen. The programme for Government mentions the recognition of a Palestinian state as part of a two-state solution, which is also Fianna Fáil's view. What do the witnesses envisage the real impact of that for the Palestinian people and the government in Palestine so that people here can understand how important the recognition of the state of Palestine would be in the Middle East and internationally?

Both Dr. Barghouthi and Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi mentioned the apartheid system and how Palestinian citizens are treated. I ask Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi to give some examples of what that means to the normal Palestinian people going about their daily lives.

As my party's foreign affairs spokesperson, I am incredibly disappointed at the lack of engagement by Israel in moving towards a solution. Following on from what our Vice Chairman, Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, said, I believe these talks need a sponsor; it cannot just be Israel and Palestine. The Palestinian ambassador to Ireland, who along with his team does a fantastic job, has been at pains to say that it needs an independent sponsor. If it is not to be the United States - I would not write that off completely - what country should it be? Previous advances in talks arose because there was an independent sponsor. We understood that, given the work of the US Government and the European Union in the Irish peace process.

Ireland and its European partners have strongly condemned the destruction of EU-funded properties in Palestine and the Occupied Territories. The European Commission has made a strong statement in that regard. What more would the witnesses like the EU to do?

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

I thank the Deputies for their very good questions. The peace process is not a goal by itself. The peace process is an instrument or a method used to achieve peace. In the Palestinian case, unfortunately we have ended up with a peace process that has become a substitute for peace because the US has a monopoly over the so-called peace process, a total bias in favour of Israel and an inability to play an impartial role. We have ended up with a peace process that has become a substitute for peace and a cover for the expansion of Israeli settlements. The Israeli facts on the ground are destroying the very potential for a two-state solution. It is ironic that the peace process has become a cover for actions that are killing the possibility of peace and the possibility of a two-state solution. After 26 years of negotiations, nobody can hide the reality that there is no peace process. It is unacceptable that the peace process is being used as an excuse to delay the recognition of Palestine as a state. To be specific and technical, there have been no peace negotiations for many years. The process is dead. It is used to cover the Israeli actions. It is not leading to a solution.

I tried to show the committee some slides. They have been printed for the committee. The green area of the map on the first slide depicts what was supposed to be a Palestinian state on almost 44% of the historic land of Palestine. The map on the second slide depicts the so-called two-state solution, which we accepted with great pain because it meant giving up half of what we should have had according to the UN resolution. Palestinians accepted the two-state solution option that was based on the 1967 borders, as shown in the second map. Unfortunately, a third map was offered to us when we went to Camp David in 2000. This offered us a state without borders, without sovereignty and without Jerusalem, which is the most important city in Palestine. Ariel Sharon went further at a later stage by deducting more of the proposed Palestinian state and transforming it into three separate sectors. The real map I would like to show the committee today shows how Palestinian communities have been fragmented across 225 isolated bantustans or ghettos. Israel is devoting the black area on the map, which represents 62% of the land of the West Bank, to the use of illegal Israeli settlers. How can we have a state with such a map? How can we speak about a peace process which is being used as a cover to produce this system of fragmentation and killing the very foundation of the possibility of having a Palestinian state?

I think the only possible alternative to the US is a true international body which includes major players. That is what France tried to achieve when it initiated the idea of having an international peace conference with the participation of many countries from across the world. Unfortunately, this idea, which would have eliminated the US monopoly, was paralysed when Israel refused to attend the conference in question. Israel refuses to deal with any country or entity, including the EU, that presents itself as an alternative peace mediator. We are stuck with an imbalance of power that cannot be changed unless the facts on the ground are put across to counter the Israeli facts on the ground. That is why the recognition of Palestine is important, to come to Deputy O'Brien's second question. The recognition of Palestine would send a message that the Israeli facts on the ground are not going to dominate. It would show that there is an alternative fact on the ground: the recognition of the state of Palestine, which would have the status of a state under occupation, as the UN has indicated. Such recognition would have a very important legal aspect, a very important fact aspect and a very important moral aspect for the Palestinian people in feeling that the world is supporting their goal.

Before I speak about reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas, a process in which I am participating, I will ask Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi to speak about the issue of apartheid. Deputy O'Brien asked for specific information about the system of apartheid. I can show the committee some figures that show we do not have much water. The West Bank produces approximately 132 cu. m of water every year. Israel takes more than 86% of that. The outcome of this is that on average, a Palestinian is allowed to use more than 50 cu. m of water per year, while illegal Israeli settlers are allowed to use 2,400 cu. m of water each year, or 48 times more than us. The Israeli GDP per capitais $38,000. The Palestinian GDP per capitais less than $2,000. We are obliged to buy products at Israeli market prices. Moreover, we are obliged to pay double the price for electricity and water. If we need to send a patient to an Israeli hospital, we are obliged to pay four times more than what an Israeli citizen pays. In addition, there is a system of road segregation. This is the first time in human history that roads have been segregated. This did not even happen during the South African apartheid system. There are major roads inside the West Bank - not in Israel - which we are prohibited to use. If we are caught driving or walking on these roads, we will be sentenced to six months in jail.

I was born in Jerusalem. I worked as a medical doctor in Jerusalem for 15 years. I committed a sin, from the Israeli perspective, in 2005 when I decided to run for president and to meet voters in Jerusalem. I was arrested on four occasions for being in the city where I was born. Since then, I have been prohibited from entering Jerusalem and visiting my sister who lives there. If a Palestinian man in Jerusalem decides to marry a Palestinian woman in Ramallah, which is just 16 km away, legally they will not be able to live together. She could not go to Jerusalem because she would not be given a permit. If he decided to move to Ramallah to live with his wife, he would lose his residency, social security and health insurance and would not be allowed to come back to Jerusalem. This must be the worst system of apartheid in the 21st century. It is totally unacceptable.

Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi:

I thank Deputy Darragh O'Brien for his perceptive remark that the longer this is allowed to continue, the less realistic a two-state solution will become. The real question in this regard relates to why this is being allowed to drag on. It is definite that the Palestinians are not causing the process to drag on, given that they are living under a brutal foreign occupation that they want to end as soon as possible.

Israel wants to drag on the occupation because the longer it takes to resolve, the more facts on the ground can be established, the most important being the establishment of settlements in the occupied territories. As Dr. Barghouthi said, when the Oslo agreements were signed there were around 100,000 settlers in the occupied territories. Now, more than 700,000 settlers live there.

I worked for the UN and while I was there we looked at the map of the West Bank. We discovered that Israel has illegally expropriated 20% of the West Bank. If one adds the lands that are now what are called shooting, military or green zones and the lands taken by illegal Israeli settlements, as well as the lands that surround Israeli settlements that Palestinians are not allowed to access, one will find that more than 60% of the land of the West Bank is no longer accessible to Palestinians. These are the facts on the ground that Israel is establishing. That is why we were very excited to know about the Bill that will ban the products of illegal settlements established by an occupying power in an occupied territory from being sold on the Irish market, regardless of who the occupier is. If signals are sent to Israel that it will not benefit from delaying the end of occupation then maybe the parties can be pushed towards a speedy resolution of the conflict and thus end the occupation for the benefit of all. The ultimate objective is to establish peace.

The regime Israel has imposed on the Palestinians is an apartheid regime, which we determined using the definition for apartheid in international law. I will start by quoting the definition for apartheid in the Rome Statute. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court defines the crime of apartheid as "inhumane acts ... committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime". The inhumane acts are listed in the apartheid convention. We considered all of the acts that Israel has perpetrated against Palestinians and compared them with the inhumane acts listed in the apartheid convention. We concluded that Israel has committed all of the inhumane acts listed in the apartheid convention except for genocide. It is worth noting that the apartheid South African regime did not commit genocide but committed all of the rest of the inhumane acts.

The report considered how Israel treats different segments of the Palestinian people. Israel has divided Palestinians into four categories. First, the Palestinians who live in the occupied territories or the Palestinian territories occupied in 1967. Earlier, Dr. Barghouthi gave examples of how services are determined by a person's religion and national origin. Palestinians are deprived of services but Israeli settlers who reside illegally in the occupied territory can access land, water and natural resources.

The most important signal that it is an apartheid regime is that Israel imposes two legal systems to the same piece of land. On the one hand, military rule is imposed on the Palestinians. On the other hand, a different legal system and laws are applied to Jewish Israelis who settled in occupied territories. One cannot apply one legal system to one racial group and another system to another racial group. Such a dual legal system makes legal protection, human rights, the ability to benefit from public services and everything in one's life dependent on one's ethnic origin and religion.

I contend that an apartheid regime is imposed on Palestinian refugees because, according to Israeli law, such refugees are not allowed to return home because they are not Jewish. Had they been Jewish, they would not have been expelled or uprooted from their homes to start with. It is a little bit more tricky in east Jerusalem because Israel illegally annexed the area after occupation in 1967. After annexation, Israel classified the residents as permanent residents and, therefore, they were no longer the citizens of the city. By comparison, the Israelis who illegally went to live in east Jerusalem are nationals and citizens and, therefore, can avail of all of the services. Discrimination is obvious in health services, educational services, municipal services etc.

The most controversial aspect is whether Israel has imposed an apartheid regime within the State of Israel. As a Jewish state, the basic Israeli legal architecture codifies a privileged status for its Jewish citizens and allows discrimination against all others, particularly against Palestinians. According to Israeli law, Palestinians can be citizens of the state of Israel but they cannot be nationals of the state of Israel. The country differentiates between nationality and citizenship. Only the Jewish citizens of Israel can be nationals of the State of Israel and, therefore, Palestinians cannot access and benefit from all of the nationality rights granted to Jewish citizens, including access to land. As much as 93% of the land in Israel has been deemed Government land, which can only be developed for the benefit of its Jewish citizens. Non-Jewish citizens cannot benefit from Government land. There is also discrimination when it comes to immigration. Only Jews are allowed to immigrate to Israel. Palestinians who were born in Palestine, which is Israel now, are not allowed to come back.

There are now 50 Israeli laws that explicitly discriminate against its non-Jewish citizens. They cover a wide range of domains, including constitutional protection, immigration, political participation, the state budget and the ability to benefit from state land and public services. One would question why such discrimination was allowed to persist. The reason is equality is not a legal principle under basic Israeli laws. While all constitutions state that all citizens are equal regardless of their race and gender, equality is not a legal principle in Israel and, therefore, non-Jewish citizens cannot lodge an appeal with the Supreme Court to be treated the same as Jewish citizens.

We all accept that the German nation is the nation state of the German people and the French state is the nation state of the French people. The Israeli Supreme Court decided that the Israeli state is not the state of the Israeli people but the Jewish people only. That demonstrates an institutionalised system of discrimination that targets a racial group, namely, Palestinians and favours another racial group, namely, Israelis. The objective of such domination is to perpetuate the system of apartheid and discrimination.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi. I recall that when Eamon Gilmore was Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, we discussed, on a number of occasions at this committee, the need to ban goods from the settlement areas. I am not clear in terms of my recollection. Is that totally within the competence of a member state of the European Union or is it a matter within the competence of the EU itself?

Ms Marie Crawley:

I understand that Senator Frances Black, policy advisers and our legal adviser in Sadaka have developed a Bill that will be tabled in the coming weeks and is in full compliance with EU law. In fact, the settlement programme also violates our domestic legislation as the transfer of the civilian population on to occupied territory is criminalised under the Geneva Conventions Act 1962, the Geneva Conventions (Amendment) Act 1998 and the International Criminal Court Act 2006.

Not only is this possible and fully compliant with EU law, it also enables us to enact our own Irish legislation in accordance with those particular Acts. Obviously if the committee would like further evidence from the legal advisers who developed that legislation, we would be very happy to facilitate that.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not doubting it at all. I just recall discussing this in the committee with the then Tánaiste. At the time I thought there was a European Union dimension required. It might be worth checking the reports of those committees.

Ms Marie Crawley:

They have scrutinised the legislation and the EU law. This has been in development over a number of months. They are fully satisfied that it is fully compliant.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Crawley.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

May I respond to the other question about reconciliation?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. We then must bring in the other three members.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

I will do as the Chairman wishes. There was a question which was not answered yet. Does he wish me to answer now or would he prefer I wait?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dr. Barghouthi may answer now please.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

I thank the Chairman. Regarding the issue of internal reconciliation between Palestinians, we have now engaged in another attempt to bring back internal unity between Palestinians. I myself attended the most recent meeting in Cairo in which all the 14 political parties in Palestine participated. We have come up with an agreement that we hope to fully implement, which would come to a practical end with the establishment of a unified Palestinian leadership within the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, PLO. It would also allow elections to take place. It is hoped such elections would be held no later than the end of 2018. We have not had such elections since 2006. It would also allow us to have a national unity government again.

It is very important for further reconciliation to succeed for us for two reasons. First, it will make us much stronger in confronting all of these oppressions from the Israeli side and in changing the balance of power. However, it is also important to bring democracy back to Palestine. It is important to bring our parliament back to life because it has been paralysed since the collapse of the national unity government in 2007. Bringing back democracy, elections and the principle of separation of powers is very important internally for Palestinian people and for the future independent Palestinian state for which we hope.

This will not succeed unless the international community also supports the reconciliation efforts. We had a very painful experience in 2007. When we formed our national unity government I personally mediated between Fatah and Hamas, being an independent party to both of them, and we succeeded in forming a national unity government. We were besieged by embargoes from the United States and many European countries and Israel suspended the transfer of our tax revenue, which it controls. As the committee knows, Israel controls 70% of our tax revenue and deducts 3% as a commission for doing so. When it suspended the transfer of all our tax revenue, the world community partially participated in that siege on us. That unity government collapsed. That is why it is very important that Europe supports unity between Palestinians not with words, but with actions. That is why it is not acceptable to impose conditions on Palestinian political parties.

I would like to mention one small point. Everybody keeps saying that Hamas should recognise Israel. Hamas asks why it should recognise Israel when Israel does not recognise Palestine? Why do people not speak about mutual recognition? The PLO recognised Israel, but Israel never recognised Palestine. As a matter of fact, Israel is the only country in the world that does not define its borders. I hope, in any future encounter committee members have with any Israeli officials, that they would ask them what the borders of Israel are. It will not define its borders because it continues to expand them in violation of international law.

A question was asked on what the alternative would be if the two-state was killed. For Israelis the alternative is what we have today - the system of apartheid, discrimination and continuous occupation. This is not the solution for us. It is probably the opinion of most Palestinians that if Israel kills the two-state solution, and if the world community does not intervene very quickly, we will have no option but to struggle for a one-state solution with full democratic rights for everybody. In that case we could never accept that Israel could be a Jewish state. Israel cannot be a Jewish state if more than half the population are Palestinians. It has to be a state for all its citizens. That means equality for everybody. Therefore Israel has two options, either a two-state solution immediately or a one-state solution eventually. However, we know that it will be a long struggle against the system of apartheid, which was described very well to the committee.

I have one last point on the EU projects which were destroyed. It is unacceptable that Israel is allowed to continue to destroy projects which the EU is funding with the money of Irish and European taxpayers. The European Union must take action. Protest is not enough. I believe that the European Union should immediately take action so that damages for any EU-funded projects in area C which are destroyed by Israel would be deducted immediately from any co-operation agreement between Israel and the European Union. More than that, the fact that Israel is destroying European projects in the occupied Palestinian territories should be a reason to suspend all these agreements between the European Union and Israel.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was due to bring in Deputy Seán Crowe but Senator Gabrielle McFadden has another committee meeting and wanted to make an intervention. Is that okay?

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, that is fine.

Gabrielle McFadden (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Crowe. I thank the witnesses for their attendance. I have always known of the difficulties, as has everybody, but when one looks at the map it is quite shocking to see it in that way. When one hears of things like road segregation from Dr. Barghouthi it is also quite shocking. I am really sorry that is the case. On the discussion about the difficulties we have had here in our own country and how we have come out of the other end, people would say that both sides were more equal and that we had a very good driver in the United States. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan has stated she does not think the United States will be there for Palestine and I am inclined to agree. There is, however, a very strong need for an independent driver for any peace process.

I know that President Trump visited in May or June of this year. Does Dr. Barghouthi feel that there will be any intervention from the United States? It has said that it wants to try to drive the peace process. Does Dr. Barghouthi have any indication as to what it might be looking at doing? Is there any possibility that anything can come out of that or is it just talk? I am sorry to jump in like this. I have another committee to attend at 10 a.m.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator McFadden. Can Dr. Barghouthi give her a quick response?

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

I will be very quick, yes. First, I thank the Senator for the question. As she knows, President Trump is a man of grand ideas. He is speaking about a grand solution to the problem but we have not yet been officially presented with any ideas. All we hear is that the US is thinking about, talking about and visiting us. Members of President Trump's team have already visited the place 23 times. Perhaps the Americans would be very happy if he were to visit us 23 times himself. This would reduce the amount of tweets. Unfortunately there are three indications that make us worried. The first is that this US Administration is the first in decades which has not spelled out the term "two-state solution" and which has not said that it would support the creation of an independent Palestinian state. Second, this Administration is quite different from previous Administrations in how it responds to Israeli settlement activities.

It is not doing anything. The rate at which settlements expand has increased by 100% since President Trump was elected.

The third problem relates to the nature of the team that is working on the issue. Many people are very suspicious that the team is very biased to Israel and that it adopts Israeli positions. One of them, at least, is definitely not suitable to participate in a peace process. This is the American ambassador in Israel, David Friedman, who declared openly that he supports settlement activities and who is also very proud of the fact that his daughter has volunteered to work in the Israeli army. These aspects make us very worried about the nature of that grand plan, if it is represented.

We also understand that one of the main efforts of the American team is to enforce normalisation between Israel and Arab countries without solving the Palestinian issue and without presenting a solution that would end the occupation.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Barghouthi. I now call Deputy Seán Crowe and then Senator Ivana Bacik.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses. I share the frustrations of the speakers about the current situation in Palestine and the impunity that the international community, including Ireland, provides for Israel. For those who are watching the proceedings at home, some of the witnesses' comments this morning will be shocking, especially the idea that Israel portrays itself as a very liberal society that, for example, recognises the gay community, takes part in the Eurovision song contest and has a European outlook. People are then shocked to hear how Israel treats the Palestinians and what is happening with the occupation. That one group of people get access to a huge amount of water to fill a swimming pool, particularly in a region such as the Middle East where people clearly cannot survive without water, while another group is confined to small amounts will shock most people.

The idea of settlements should not be a surprise to people in Ireland. Looking back on our own history, we had conflict and war and we also had plantation similar to the settlement process, where people were moved off their lands though conflict and hunger. They were forced off their land and the phrase that was used was "To hell or to Connacht" during Cromwell's time, but plantation happened before that also. People suggest there may similarities between Ireland and what is happening in Palestine. People look at the Irish peace process and ask why would anybody be against peace. This is the big question asked by people in Ireland. The Irish peace process, however, is a bit different in that all the parties had come to a conclusion that there could be no military victory on any side. That was the conclusion and one of the reasons that people went to the table. Many of the parties also had an idea of a plan for how the situation would resolve, and those discussions went on.

People have a difficulty in respect of the Palestinian peace process with some saying it is a sham or a cover-up for what the Israelis are doing. Looking at the map, the Israelis do not need to do a peace process as they are clearly killing the green area that is supposed to be Palestinian, which is shrinking in size. I suppose that the Israeli policy on settlements is working for them, but perhaps the witnesses will explain the idea of a settlement. What happens if a settler moves into a house in a particular area? Do the remaining Palestinians then live around the house where the settler is living? Does the military move in to protect the settler? What happens to the families who live in that area? It would be useful to have this explained for people who may watch this committee from home.

In her role as executive secretary for the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia, Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi worked on the report that detailed the apartheid system operated by Israel in the occupied Palestine. The report is hard hitting but necessary. Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi was put under pressure to withdraw the report and it is regrettable that she had to resign. Will the witness explain why she thinks certain forces within the UN attacked her over the report? They had said the report had not gone through due process and so on. When will the UN wake up to this, finally accept that an apartheid system operates in that area and challenge it as was done with South Africa? Dr. Khalaf Hunaidi has clearly outlined, to the committee and in her report, the situation and many of the issues, but what is the difference between Israel now and South Africa at that time?

The witness has also referred to the military links and how Israel probably would not survive without its military complex, the technology it buys and its arms sales around the world. How important is this for countries such as Ireland? We have information technology companies that are quite successful and they might supply components that could be useful in the technology. With regard to the South African issue, during the apartheid regime there was a ban on certain elements, for example, such as for military helicopters, but it was not in place for helicopters used for health and safety or rescue. That was how they got around that issue. The apartheid regime could simply use it for peaceful purposes. Within these comments I have tried to outline the frustration shared by people in Ireland. We as a people want to know what our country and our Government can do to move beyond this stalemate and beyond the colonisation that is happening. It is clearly killing off the idea of a two-state solution and is killing off the prospect of the Palestinian people ever having self-determination and freedom in their own land.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the speakers. They are very welcome to the committee. It has been a very important session. While it has not been good to hear what the witnesses have said, because it is very bleak, it is important to hear it and to have it on the record. The committee is glad the witnesses are here with us today.

I was glad to attend the Sadaka conference on Tuesday and to engage on the political panel with so many people there and to hear some of the presentations. At that panel I expressed my own commitment and that of the Labour Party to working towards the Government's recognition of the state of Palestine. There have been unanimous resolutions of the Dáil and Seanad when our former Labour Party leader, Eamon Gilmore, was Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, and he took up the groundbreaking stance. Ms Crawley has quoted Eamon Gilmore in her presentation to the committee as having said, "The continuing Israeli military occupation of the Palestinian territories is at the heart of the unresolved Arab-Israeli conflict". A very clear position was set out there. On that point of recognition of the state of Palestine, this committee might take up a position seeking to persuade the Minister to give effect to the Dáil and Seanad resolutions. I take the point that action such as this needs to be taken to move things forward. In the Seanad we will also work on the legislation, which we discussed at the Sadaka conference on Tuesday. I have personally supported the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign for many years.

I have raised the issue of the demolitions and the settlements with the Minister. At EU level there are initiatives to prohibit importation of goods from occupied territories.

The witnesses have painted a bleak picture of the Middle Eastern peace process which has been at a stalemate since 2014. What do they see as the way forward? Do they expect the Middle East peace process to be revived in some form with, if not the US, the EU or the Arab League as honest brokers? Where do we get the international intervention that would be required to kick-start it or should we start afresh with a new two-state solution? What is the position within Israel? Netanyahu's governments have been resolutely against the peace process and the witnesses have graphically described the creeping settlements and annexation of Palestinian land. Is there any prospect of change in Israel?

Dr. Khalaf identified the position taken in the report. I thank her for that. What is its effect and how can we pursue its findings?

We received a letter yesterday from the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign stating, and I did not know this, that President Netanyahu is scheduled to meet EU foreign ministers in Brussels on 11 December. Are the witnesses aware of that? Will they comment on that forthcoming meeting and what Ireland could do about it?

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witnesses mentioned the American ambassador to Israel. Does the United States have a representative in Ramallah? The committee and I have met delegations from non-governmental organisations, NGOs, and civil society from Israel who are as critical as the witnesses of their government. There is a need for those voices in Israel and Palestine, who want to see democracy and respect for human rights, to come together.

I acknowledge the resilience of the Palestinian people I have met and how they keep going. The development in Ramallah is an example, probably a bit too much, although I can understand the reason for it. I went to Nablus for the first time where human life goes on in spite of everything. We have to be positive about how the Palestinian people are living their lives and getting on with work, education and family life.

Dr. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi:

I thank the committee for the questions on the report. The main question was why the report was stifled and how we reacted. The report was stifled because international law imposes legal obligations on all states and on the United Nations if a crime of apartheid is brought to their attention. According to international law, all states, individually and collectively, have a duty, first, not to recognise an apartheid regime as legitimate, second, not to aid or assist a country in maintaining an apartheid regime, and third, to co-operate with other states and with the United Nations body to dismantle that apartheid regime. The report brought a crime of apartheid to their attention and they wanted it to disappear because if they had knowledge of this crime, they would have to take action. The first reaction was to make it disappear.

My reaction was not to resign. I said, "The report is in front of you. If you find any flaw in the argument, if we misquoted an Israeli law or misrepresented an Israeli practice, if we arrived at any wrong conclusion, if you can point to any flaw in the analysis, I am willing to withdraw the report without asking any questions. Just point to one error." The response from all the parties involved - the United States and Israel put pressure on the Secretary General of the United Nations - was that they did not see any flaws but we had to take it off our website. Later, when the spokesperson for the Secretary General was asked about the report, he explicitly mentioned that there was no disagreement about its contents but that the issue was procedural, which is irrelevant because we followed the proper procedure. This is the background and that is why we all have a responsibility to act on the recommendations of the report.

That is why I suggested to the distinguished members of the committee that it may be worthwhile forming a working group, an investigation or a fact-finding panel to confirm beyond reasonable doubt that Israel has imposed an apartheid regime. I am not talking about punitive actions or taking measures but about establishing the facts and confirming that this is happening and that a crime is being perpetrated against the Palestinian people.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

The first question was about settlements and what settlers do. Israel uses a combination of laws to impose its regime on the ground. The committee might be surprised to know that Israel still uses the Ottoman Turkish law, the British mandatory law, British emergency law, Israeli law, Jordanian law and no less than 2,400 military orders to impose its facts on the ground in Palestine. The Ottoman Turkish empire, the British Mandate and the British emergency law ended a long time ago, but these laws are still used in Israel. If that is not enough, it can initiate a new military order any time it wants or a new law in the Knesset, which is racist by nature.

The settlers come in and can claim that the land they are taking is estate land, in which case it does not belong to Israel because these are occupied territories, or they confiscate private land. As soon as a settler is in one spot, the whole surrounding area is forbidden to Palestinians, for security reasons they claim. The spot expands and a very wide area around that is also considered a security area forbidden to us, and that expands. Then they build a wall to prevent us entering that area. After building the wall they can expand the settlements further.

Two clear examples are Salfit in the north of the West Bank where Israel built many settlements up to 30 km inside the West Bank to take over control of major aquifers. Then all the Palestine villages and communities were fragmented. A trip from one village to another, to go to a hospital, a health centre or university which used to take five minutes has become 2.5 hours because people have to go around the settlements and the roads that they are not allowed to use. Hebron is a much worse example. Israel put 450 settlers there. For their sake, Israel has imposed an apartheid system where 25,000 Palestinians are under Israeli military control and have become separated from the city of Hebron. No fewer than 1,000 shops closed completely more than 15 years ago. All major roads inside the city are closed and only Israeli settlers and the Israeli army can use them. We the Palestinians cannot move on these roads inside Hebron city.

In 1994, one year after the Oslo agreement was signed, an Israeli medical doctor by the name of Baruch Goldstein entered the Ibrahimi Mosque while Palestinians were praying and started shooting them. He killed 29 Palestinians while they were praying and injured many others.

This resulted in the closure of many streets in Hebron, the division of the Ibrahimi mosque and Palestinians being forbidden to use large parts of the mosque. We were punished for that terrorist act that was committed by an Israeli settler. The situation in Hebron is very dramatic. The people who are living in Hebron cannot have a normal life because they are attacked frequently by settlers. Students cannot go to schools because the army would harass them. Settlers continually attack the Palestinian community in Hebron and Palestinians cannot respond because if they try to do so, the Israeli Army will arrest them, oppress them or shoot them, which happens frequently. It is a very dark situation of severe discrimination, which on a human rights basis cannot be defended.

On the question of the peace process and what might be an alternative, the only alternative is an international conference with the participation of impartial parties and not one party that is biased to the Israeli side. To be frank, we cannot achieve any result without changing the balance of power and the asymmetry between us and the Israelis. We cannot remove the asymmetry between us and Israel because it has nuclear power. We cannot have nuclear power. Israel has the most powerful army not only in the Middle East but in the world. We cannot balance that. The only way to change the situation, in my opinion, is to adopt an alternative strategy with popular, non-violent, resistance, as was done very successfully in many actions, most recently in Jerusalem in July, by way of a strong boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign worldwide, similar to that used in South Africa against the system of apartheid. One cannot balance the international support that Israel gets from the United States and many other countries without strong international support and power from another side. We believe that boycott, divestment and sanctions, BDS, is the most powerful way to do this because it is peaceful and non-violent and it can create a material economic affect and, importantly, it can create an important model affect.

Many Jewish people realise that the apartheid system is very bad not only for Palestinians but for Jewish and Israeli people as well. As I told soldiers many times when they arrested me, we are struggling not only for the freedom of Palestinians but also their freedom. Israelis will never be free unless we are free. This is why many young Jewish people are now joining the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign in the United States and participating in organisations in Jewish Voice for Peace, B'Tselem, Yesh Gvul, Gush Shalom and Women in Black. Unfortunately, these groups represent a minority in Israel. Inside Israel, the mainstream political parties, including the Likud Party and the Labour Party, are all adopting the policy of occupation. The most recently elected leader of the Labour Party, Mr. Avi Gabbay, recently declared that he will not allow the removal of any settlement. He also declared that the Israeli Army must remain active inside the occupied Palestinian territories even after the establishment of a Palestinian state. When we have these positions, it becomes clear that the only way to change the political internal dynamic in Israel is to make occupation unprofitable. As long as occupation is profitable and as long as Israel is allowed to be impunitive to international law, this bad situation will continue. This is why we have to combine our work and struggle on the ground with international strong solidarity activities, as happened in the case of South Africa.

As we heard, Mr. Netanyahu is to speak in the European Parliament to foreign ministers, but to allow him to do so and not allow Palestinians do the same would be unequal, biased and unacceptable. I hope that if he is allowed to speak, the foreign ministers of Europe will put specific questions to him, including why Israel does not identify its borders, why it continues its occupation, why it is creating a system of apartheid and why it continues to obstruct any effort to have a productive peace process. A member asked if the United States has a representative in Ramallah. We know that it does not have a representative to the Palestinian Authority but it does have an American consul general in Jerusalem. Some countries that have consulates in east Jerusalem or Jerusalem in particular continue to represent their countries through the Palestinian side, including the United States, Sweden, Britain, France, Belgium and some other countries. The consul general in Jerusalem is the United States representative to the Palestinian side. Following on from that, I would like to inform the committee of a most unfortunate American act to close the PLO office in Washington. That act, by itself, reflected how much influence the Israeli and Zionist lobby in the United States has in the American Administration. That act also reflects how biased this American Administration is to the Israeli side.

On Palestinian resilience, we are very resilient and we are proud of that. We have built institutions without permits from the Israeli side. Along with some colleagues, I founded a fantastic health and medical organisation that helps poor people. It serves 1.5 million every year. We could not get a permit for it from Israel for 20 years and so we acted without permit and applied for and got a licence from the Palestinian Authority. Seventeen universities were created. This building of Palestinian institutions and educational structures and health care facilities is in itself in our philosophy an act of resistance. In Palestine today, living there is an act of resistance. Praying is an act of resistance. Studying is an act of resistance. Treating a patient is an act of resistance. This is probably one of the most noble aspects of the Palestinian struggle.

Of course we would co-operate with Israeli civil society organisations but with one condition, namely, that they oppose occupation and the system of apartheid and support the right of the Palestinian people to be free. On the apartheid report, I met Mr. Guterres during his last visit to Ramallah and I asked him why the report was removed from the Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia, ESCWA, site and his response was that while they do not disagree with the content of the report, it is a procedural matter. I told him that I hoped he would not accept any pressure that would prevent the publication by the United Nations Human Rights Council of this very important report between December and February, which declares the names of 130 companies that are working illegally in illegal Israeli settlements.

That report, once published, should be the basis for an immediate big campaign to divest and boycott these companies that are participating in the violation of international law. I do not know whether there is any Irish company there but we will see.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Barghouthi and all who came before the committee for the comprehensive and compelling presentation on the serious difficulties, and, unfortunately, deteriorating situation, facing the Palestinian people. In one of his opening sentences, Dr. Barghouthi referred to the lack of peace, the lack of freedom and the lack of independence. Those are three basic requirements for people to live in peace and in decent civility, and unfortunately, that is lacking there at the present time.

I understand that Dr. Barghouthi met President Higgins and he also met the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney. There is a European Union Foreign Affairs Council on 11 December. We will convey to Deputy Coveney in advance of that meeting the concerns of this committee following Dr. Barghouthi's presentation, and, indeed, the ongoing contact we have with different advocates in regard to the Palestine difficulties, and we will ask him to raise this matter again at the Foreign Affairs Council. We will continue to do that.

I thank Dr. Barghouthi for his strong and comprehensive statement and the exchange and answers to the questions raised here.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi:

I thank the committee for having us.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will now go into private session.