Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is a two-pronged process, of which the Citizens' Assembly was the first element. We were asked to consider the report and recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on the eighth amendment of the Constitution and to report in turn to both Houses of the Oireachtas. Our brief does not say anything more than that. At the beginning, we decided that we would not repeat the Citizens' Assembly process but would instead consider the recommendations. The people who were invited here were invited to consider those recommendations.

Looking at those we have invited, the World Health Organization was one. It very definitely said it was not pro-pregnancy or pro-abortion but was rather concerned with how it is regulated if it is in place. If the evidence is cold, clinical evidence, stating the eighth amendment is damaging prenatal and maternal outcomes and one is simply presenting information, it does not make it biased; it makes it factual. A lot of the evidence has been factual. We had two witnesses from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission and two witnesses from the largest maternity hospitals in Dublin. Indeed, Professor Fergal Malone made a point of stating that he does not categorise himself. I would have said the two witnesses from the Irish College of General Practitioners were neutral health experts dealing with a legal situation and telling us what the impediments were. That was the questioning that happened. We had witnesses from the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, someone from the HSE, the former Supreme Court judge who chaired the Citizens' Assembly, senior counsel and the UK-based obstetrician who wrote the report on the death of Savita Halappanavar. When one looks at the regimes around Europe, one sees that we have one of the most restrictive. It is very difficult to see where one would have drawn someone to write that report. He was based in the UK. We had psychologists and academics who presented us with facts. Facts do not alter and what was presented was peer-reviewed, which is something we were very deliberate about. As such, this notion that there were 24 on one side and four on the other is utter nonsense. It is very important to respect the people who come before us in the context in which they come in front of us.

The Citizens' Assembly went through a range of different hearings. We decided not to bring in advocacy groups. If one goes through the Citizens' Assembly report to look at who presented at the assembly, one sees that there were two sides. That is not what we are being asked to do here. We have been asked to look at the report the Citizens' Assembly produced which means we have had to get people who could help us to take it on and look at the issues that would present in the context of the recommendations, if implemented. I feel very strongly that we should not allow this to become a narrative that is lie because that would discredit those who are sitting in this room. It is not going to be a constructive contribution to public discourse when we get around to debating this issue in the context of a referendum.

I support Deputy Murphy in what she has just said and there is no need to repeat it. From the outset, our task was to examine the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly. In the first few meetings, we were trying to get witnesses in to seek clarity as to how the Citizens' Assembly came to those recommendations and to open our eyes as to how it ended up as it did. It is obviously a challenge that we are an outlier in Europe in maternal health and the provision of abortion services. We looked at national people, urban versus rural, Irish versus international, and some people might say they were all pro-choice. Maybe the world is becoming slightly more pro-choice. It would be very difficult to get a medical expert with a lot of experience in the fields of obstetrics and gynaecology to come here to say the eighth amendment has been good for women's health. I support what Deputy Murphy has said. No one can say other than that all the members of the committee have worked very hard to come here prepared by reading statements beforehand and seeking evidence. Publicly, some members have come on a journey throughout the process. If that is so, it is evidence that the committee is doing its work. I will leave it at that.