Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am glad that has been clarified. Officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform were before us. The Department did a public sector standards briefing on the Bill in the audiovisual room. I was the only member of the Oireachtas present. At the time, there did not seem to be that much concern. Only for the Chairman, me and a number of other members of this committee saying it was not going any further until we had a response, there would have been a different outcome. We were told by the Department that it wrote to the delegates and that they did not respond. That is what we heard although it is clear the delegates sent us the submissions they made. We do not know where they went, therefore. They went into the Department but the Minister says he never got them or saw them. There was no reaction and everything was regarded as fine. The legislation was approved just before the last general election so many of us were not Members at the time. It is deeply flawed in how it is put together and how it will work in practice. I refer to declaring everything one owns every three or four months and having to record all one's assets, with the possibility of having to go before some kind of investigation or tribunal, through no fault of one’s own, if one accidentally leaves something out. One could end up being prosecuted and in jail. Of course there should be sanctions for genuine wrongdoing and the abuse of one's position. When the Revenue Commissioners have access to all the information anyway and one declares it all to them when calculating one's income tax, why the involvement of SIPO, or whatever it will be named in the future? If it were not for the Chairman and many members of the committee saying there was to be no further progress further until they heard a response, the delegates would not have been brought in. Neither AILG nor LAMA would be here. I commend the Chairman in this regard. I commend all the members who sat diligently with officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, who said all was fine, that everyone was happy, that there is no issue with the legislation and that everyone wanted to get it through as fast as they could. There is a huge administrative burden for people who are trying to engage in local government, most with another job. Who can live and raise a family on €16,000 a year before paying PRSI and the universal social charge? As stated, the PRSI class, involving a payment rate of 4%, gave nothing. In fact, the only people in the entire public service who do not get pensions are councillors. People sometimes need to remember that.

It is important to note that submissions were sent in by the delegates. They were mislaid or lost somewhere. We now have the delegates' input and we can go back to the Department with it and say people are not happy and that we need a more streamlined, easy method with an explanation as to why work needs to be duplicated or triplicated.

I thank all the delegates for attending. None of them is being paid to be here. I thank the four councillors who are here, Mr. Tom Moylan and Mr. Liam Kenny for all their work.