Dr. Katriona O'Sullivan:

On Senator Ruane's question as to how the leaving certificate applied lets down working class students or students from disadvantaged backgrounds, the general leaving certificate programme is letting down a whole section of society because of the availability of resources such as access to grinds, family situations, resources in schools, pressure on time and on teachers.

The leaving certificate applied is selling a dream that is not real to students who come from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have had conversations with many teachers who teach in affluent schools who have asked me to try to convince their schools to take on the leaving certificate applied. I am afraid to speak my mind openly in case I am not invited back here. However, there is a catch. To ensure school-finishing statistics remain high, these schools tend not to take it on and will not offer it.

It is well known in education spheres that low-income students are the ones most likely to end up on the vocational track. The problem is not that the leaving certificate applied is there. There should be vocational options available. It is the fact that no actual set curriculum is followed is the problem. The curriculum may be there but how it is implemented is optional. Forty teachers responded to the survey I sent to them and there is diversity across schools. The schools with fewer resources are offering a weaker curriculum. Those students end up unable to find work and deflated by the experience. Recently, a school in Inchicore was showcased on the news on how it had been pitched the leaving certificate applied but did not know students who did it could not get into college or access programmes as a result. It is selling a dream that is not actually real.

The view around the leaving certificate in general is that it is not equal. It has a rote-learning element to it. I accept many of us succeed in that. On the two-year mark, if I was asked to prepare for an interview for two years, it would be a legal or human resources issue. I am not saying continuous assessment does not happen. The length of time between starting the leaving certificate and assessment after two years is too long. Were there examinations across that time and were the emphasis on that two-week period of examinations at the end of the cycle reduced, it might reduce the stress.

The mentality of teaching to the test, whereby schools compete for kudos in The Irish Timesleague tables, is actually causing significant difficulties in schools that want to support students and reform the system. We have to find a way of removing this final terminal examination on which students, schools and teachers are assessed. Senator Ruane asked for one suggestion in this regard. We need a skills focus and more continuous assessment. For me, whatever curriculum change happens, all schools should be empowered and supported to have equal opportunity to change their curricula and offer them to all students. If we do not, we will end up with an unequal society where those who have get ahead while those who do not continue to remain unemployed and in the same situation.