Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 8 November 2017

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

Business of Joint Committee

1:30 pm

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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We must now attend to a housekeeping matter. I return to an issue which was raised with me earlier. Letters may be read into the record in limited circumstances only, as, for example, in the case of Ms Cora Sherlock where clarification was necessary. I am reliably informed that it is a matter for the Chair, rather than individual members, to decide how correspondence is handled. I have proposed that the correspondence in question be placed on the committee's website. That is my decision and it is one on which I will not be challenged. Individual members may not demand a decision or question the decision of the Chair. This applies to the Dáil, the Seanad and all committees. If any member wishes to table a substantive motion in respect of a ruling of the Chair, he or she is free to do so, provided he or she gives adequate notice to the committee. That is the position. My sincerely held view is that if someone is scheduled to attend and subsequently decides not to do so, it is not appropriate to read statements from him or her into the record. If we were to allow this, many people would not attend meetings. I have made my final decision on the matter.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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May I seek clarification?

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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The Chair gave us her sincerely held view that my request would not make sense. She then gave a ruling that it was a matter for the Chair to decide and said that she had been reliably informed that it was only done in certain circumstances. What is the source of her authority in this matter?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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As Chair of the committee, I have decided that letters sent to the committee by persons who were due to attend will not be read into the record. I am happy to read into the record clarification. It would also be reasonable to do so if an issue arose subsequent to a person's appearance. It would not set a good precedent to allow individuals who were due to attend but did not do so to write to the committee and have their statement placed on the record. We could spend all day doing so.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am clear on the Chair's personal view on what is the appropriate approach to take and that she believes it is her right, as Chair, to make a decision on the matter. What is the source of her authority to make this ruling now, as opposed to expressing this view as a member who happens to be Chair? I am merely seeking clarification on a couple of points.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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It is not incumbent on the Chair to quote Standing Orders or precedents or give a reason for a ruling.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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From what is the Chair reading?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am reading from the handbook, Salient Rulings of the Chair, fourth edition, Dáil Éireann. I can provide the Senator with a copy. It sets out accepted precedent.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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The Chair is relying on precedent and stating a written set of precedents allows the Chair to make a decision.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is questioning me. I have made a ruling on the matter.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am seeking information. I am not questioning the merits of the Chair's decision.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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It is not appropriate.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am exercising my right to find out from exactly where the Chair sources her authority in this matter. This is in everyone's interests. Perhaps we should all know that this authority is provided for in what the Chair referred to as the salient rulings of the Chair. Can I also establish that while she stated she was relying on the salient rulings of the Chair to make this, as it were, extemporeand ad hocdecision, certain letters can be read out and certain letters may not?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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It is not an ad hocdecision.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is because the Chair stated she had relied on the salient rulings of the Chair in advising members that she had formed the view that in certain cases, it could be-----

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The Senator-----

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am not questioning the Chair's authority. I am seeking clarification and following the matter to a conclusion.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is trying to undermine me.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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No, I am not. If the Chair regards seeking clarity on the source of her authority and seeking to understand the logical basis of her explanation as undermining her, she does not understand democracy.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Now it seems I do not understand democracy.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am entitled to seek full particulars in this matter because where I am leading is that the Chair has conceded that, on notice, a motion can be tabled to seek to overturn the ruling of the Chair and have letters read into the record. Is that what she said?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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If there is a problem with a particular ruling that I make, a member is free to table a motion. The Senator should do so, if he wishes.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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In that case, the Chairman accepts the point.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I will table a motion.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am an extremely patient person, but I find this inappropriate at this point. I made a ruling on the matter and set out in detail my rationale in respect of the letters in question. It is only fair that we leave the matter at that, unless an additional point needs to be made.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The same set of rulings applies to all committees.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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It applies to the committees and the Houses.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The same practice applies and there has been no deviation from it. Is such a deviation being sought?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am allowing too much discussion on this issue.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I agree. The discussion should conclude at this point.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I have seen this happen in the Seanad on numerous occasions. I have been generous and patient in allowing this discussion.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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We do not owe the Chairman any gratitude for doing her job.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am not looking for thanks.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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We are entitled to clarification on the source of the Chair's authority. For the Chair to regard as a concession a period devoted to debate on the source is a completely unacceptable approach to her role.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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To be honest, I find the Senator's approach unacceptable.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The letter was read out at approximately 3.30 p.m. This is a joke and I am starting to lose my temper.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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That is the end of the matter.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Deputy Jonathan O'Brien would not be the first person to lose his temper. We are the only members who do not lose their tempers and who try to maintain logic.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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At 3.30 p.m., while the committee was sitting, the Senator went outside to speak to the media about this issue. He undermines the Chair at every opportunity.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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If this is not intimidation, I do not know what is. May I speak, please?

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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No, not unless the Deputy has something different to say.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I indicated that I wished to speak. We are not disrespecting the Chair's ruling. We waited all day for her to obtain advice, which is fair enough and which we accept, but for her to take umbrage at us questioning the reasons behind-----

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am not taking umbrage.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Yes, you are.

Photo of Catherine NooneCatherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am adjourning the meeting.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Someone threatened to lose his temper. Will we be intimidated? Will we be kneecapped or something? That is disgraceful.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.20 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 November 2017.