Mr. Neil McDonnell:

Let me finish because there is no point in shouting over me. The Senator must show me the courtesy of allowing me to answer the question. What we have said is that one can set a minimum rate of pay at whatever level one wishes.

However, the members, as legislators, must then accept the effect that will have on the levels of employment in the economy. That is the first message.

The second message, and the point we constantly make, is if one gives someone €1 in income that does not translate directly into €1 of earned wealth whereas if one reduces a person's cost of living by €1, that translates directly into €1 increase in wealth. To go back to the point that Mr. Talbot has made, and this is why it is so important, we are listening to a narrative that says we can close this unaffordable gap. The housing part of the consumer price index is 7%, 8% or 9% of the total CPI. However, that does not matter to a person who is working in a warehouse in Blanchardstown and who is being asked to pay €1,500 or €2,000 a month in rent for a small apartment. It is irrelevant what the metric is. The point we are making is that unless the cost of living is materially and meaningfully tackled, and we can increase the national minimum wage to higher than that in Luxembourg - we are already second highest to Luxembourg - it does not matter. Unless people can afford to live on what small businesses can afford to pay, it does not matter what the national minimum wage is set at.