Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, that is correct. We began to develop our own capacity through Tusla to recruit both social workers and management and administrative staff as well. The process is happening much more quickly. That is part of the reason.

I have been travelling around the country. Perhaps this plays into the comments made by Senator Devine. She might say that I would say that, but as I go around the country and speak to not just a few but hundreds of staff, in particular around the work we are doing on signs of safety, I hear nothing but enthusiasm for what we are attempting to do. We do not have everything in place yet, but people are enthusiastic about what we are attempting to do. When Mr. Quinlan and I addressed 250 people recently in Dublin about the signs of safety approach, which does involve very much a culture change as well, they said to us that we should not wait but that we should get on with it. That was their response. I have been around the country at up to 11 different local events and I hear nothing but enthusiasm for what we are attempting to do. Social workers are not slow in coming forward to tell us the problems, issues and deficits. Of course that is the case. We hear that, but they are also extremely enthusiastic about how we are trying to address that.

If we have an environment where people are constantly blamed and pilloried in the media and by other sources and commentators, of course they will slip into a defensive mode to protect themselves. Eileen Munro said in her review of the child protection system in England, in the aftermath of Baby P, which a member mentioned, that there is very strong evidence that a number of things happened, for example, the number of children coming into care went through the roof. It was thought in England that if one just proceduralised everything, nothing bad would ever happen again. That was a really bad mistake. Social workers and others went into a defensive style and way of thinking and that was found not to be in the best interests of children. People followed process and procedure and got bogged down in that to the detriment of people spending time in front-line, face-to-face contact with children and families. If we do nothing else, let us avoid that happening here.