Mr. Michael Vaughan:

Senator Byrne raised a valid point about the Limerick and Clare Education and Training Board, LCETB. With regard to hotels and catering, we had a formalised apprenticeship system for a number of years. However, in 2003, by dint of the withdrawal of the Council for Education, Recruitment and Training, CERT, we lost a very good agency that promoted training and development in the industry. There was a lacuna of approximately ten years in which the State had no formal involvement in training in hospitality and catering. We have had to re-learn that. In Limerick, we went into the nascent ETB that was forming there, the LCETB, and told it there was a need for trainees and to train people in the old fashion. We took over the old CERT building in Roxborough and it was one of the positive examples of six or seven State agencies coming together to make something happen. Every agency involved, such as SOLAS, ETB, Intreo, all the other Departments and the Limerick Integration Working Group, pulled together. We have had a great success story there. It is mainly because, and this is interesting, we had employers involved in interviewing candidates as they came in, so we knew the type of person who would work well in the industry. Then the ETB gave tremendous assistance to people before they entered into that formal training where they had, perhaps, learning difficulties or other issues.

One of the big issues in apprenticeships, and this speaks to the number of women in apprenticeships in particular, is that we do not treat apprentices in the same way as we would treat third level students. We do not give them the same type of accessibility, for example, in terms of getting to places and allowances they might have to travel. There are some requirements for implements and tools in various apprenticeships that would have to be considered. We also must consider matters such as child care and other facilities that would allow women to participate to a greater extent. In the hospitality industry we have always had great success with women in the industry, but the problem has been the retention of people over a longer term. A longitudinal study is required to find out the reasons for that.

We started five years ago on the apprenticeship system we have developed. We had hoped to be training 500 or 600 people a year. It has taken a tortuous amount of time. The system is arcane. We have had to re-learn and learn what qualifications are. In the third level, there is delegated authority to the institutes of technology so they can develop their own education system and have the programmes up and running quite fast. It was a learning curve with the ETBs. QQI had particular standards and quality standards had to be implemented. A centralised system had to be put in place. This has required a great deal of patience on the part of the employer, but we are sticking with it. We will start this apprenticeship, hopefully, in September or October and we will have many employers available to do the training. However, one aspect we could consider is helping employers. The employer who takes on an apprentice is an employer who has a long-term vision for employment, the success of their employment and the success of the apprentice. In the current system, however, the State gives no recognition to those employers in respect of possible benefits they might get on PRSI or other credits. We could part fund some of this by recognising quality employers. The Irish Hotels Federation has a quality employers scheme. If good employers were recognised in that fashion, we would create centres of excellence within employment and we would promote apprenticeships in a more valid way.

The traineeships link in extremely well to this. People coming into apprenticeships will not always have the ability to do the learning that they require. The traineeships might give them a chance to sample an employment and decide where to go. This is critical to what we need to do in the area. With regard to what we are trying to achieve, not every employer will be able to take on the rigours of the new apprenticeship system. The old apprenticeship system in the construction industry was much simpler. There was much less in terms of the type of certification and pre-certification required. The ongoing quality standards have had to be changed. Apart from anything else, there is an amount of documentation and rigour involved in assessing the apprentice as they go along. Employers currently do not have that capability. They will have to be trained, so this is taking some time.

The work that is taking place at present is ground work. I believe we will do a tremendously good job with apprenticeship systems, but it is not turning around fast enough. To reply to Senator Byrne, I am not sure that it should be as fast because we are laying down the ground work for something that will be with us for a long time and will benefit the apprentices and the employers. I must compliment the ETBs in particular. They have been tremendous in their application to this and the learning that has been involved. The support from SOLAS has certainly been visible. Although it has been a really frustrating time for us as employers, we can see at this point that what we are doing is something the State and the employers will benefit from for a long time.