Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will be brief. There are a number of summary points I want to make, to some of which perhaps the presenters might come back with more data later and to which the committee could also return.

First, I thank all those present this evening for the presentations they made and sent in. Frankly, having listened to both the previous speaker from the construction industry and the first speaker from the hotels federation, the ambition in the programme for Government for 31,000 apprentices between now and 2020 is grotesquely inadequate in the context of both the opportunities and the challenges that face Ireland.

One of the issues the committee would need to address is the number of apprenticeships. As was stated by the representative from BATU and, indeed, the Construction Industry Federation, during the years of the crash apprenticeships, particularly in the wet trades, largely died off, as did most of the firms that employed them. However, that is behind us now. We have a situation where we have a constrained, albeit nonetheless significant, infrastructure programme plus a housing programme and my honest view is the numbers of apprenticeships being planned for are grotesquely inadequate. I am not saying that is the fault of anybody here but the committee could do something useful by asking the Government to focus on the number.

If I heard the hotels federation correctly, Mr. Fenn stated that we need 13,000 chefs by 2020 and currently we are training 1,300. This means that, inevitably, we will repeat some of the worst and most stressful elements of the boom period. Inevitably, if we have that kind of a shortage in a growing economy, we will have to pass over Irish people and people who have come to live in Ireland and who are unemployed in favour of taking in skilled workers from abroad. Taking in some skilled workers from abroad is inevitable but if we are to bypass the unemployed and those who have immigrated who are also unemployed, that is a waste of human resources here on the island of Ireland to whom we can offer opportunities. I note that nobody mentioned one of the elephants in the room regarding apprenticeship, that is, the serious absence of women apprentices. While I accept in certain elements of the building trade there might be constraints, there are not many, if any, in the hotel and hospitality trade. I would appreciate more comment from the various organisations about how we move from the 31,000, which, in my view, will not be achieved, to a minimum of 50,000 to 60,000 by 2020.

I compliment the various elements of the sector on some of the new apprenticeships, particularly the electrical and mechanical ones. I had the pleasure last week of visiting DG, one of the big electrical contractors in the sector. I met 100 apprentices there, most of whom will probably go on to complete degrees and masters. From my work on the steering group looking at how apprentices move to degrees, I am aware CIT has a good track record in this respect. In a way, that is the key element missing for many parents. If one does an apprenticeship and that apprenticeship also has a route to further qualifications, as in a ladder per the Bologna principles, one can say to people that as in Germany and Austria - a small country like Ireland - this is a dual system whereby one can go straight into college, university etc. or one can go into an apprenticeship. Ultimately, one has a choice of being employed, starting a business or perhaps going the academic route in respect of universities.

I also want to comment briefly on the point made by the BATU representative. As then Minister for Social Protection, I set up a review with the Department of Finance in respect of bogus, phantom or phoney self-employment. A great deal of self-employment in the construction sector is genuine and mechanisms or structures in both the construction sector and other sectors have changed. There is a growing trend of workers being employed as contractors who traditionally were in employment. The speaker from BATU is correct in identifying that if those jobs are precarious jobs and they do not last long, those involved may end up with little or no access to certain types of social welfare payment. Most important of all, however, they may end up inadequately provided for in terms of pension and illness cover at certain stages in their lives.

Finally, members should give consideration to the levy and how it is utilised and the fact that it is significantly underspent.

The role of employers needs to be examined to see if that can be assisted. If employers can take an apprentice, particularly those - whether small or large - that have a precarious financial history in recent years, I would favour employers having a higher level of assistance. A reference was made to the possibility of a non-sponsored route for a period of time, particularly for the wet trades in the construction industry. I certainly think that if housing alone were to be taken, that makes sense.

We are coming to almost full employment in the country now. Mr. Dan O'Brien recently said that Ireland has created more jobs in the past five years than in the first 70 years of the independence of the State. We are creating many jobs, but if we look to Austria, Germany and a number of other countries, they have massively higher performance for apprenticeships and the establishment of the reputation of apprenticeships as a really good model for developing somebody's future and prospects.