Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We will now turn to a discussion of the upgrading of the N4 and N5 roads infrastructure. I am delighted to welcome the witnesses to today's meeting. The are Ms Lisa Brady, chief executive officer of Longford Chamber of Commerce and Industry; Mr. Ciaran Corcoran, Abbott Diagnostics and midlands chairman of IBEC, Councillor Seamus Butler, Butler Manufacturing Services and former president of Longford Chamber of Commerce and Industry; Dr. Brian McCann, lecturer in the Institute of Technology, Sligo and Mr. William Carty, Sligo Chamber of Commerce and Industry. I hope I have all the names and titles correct. The joint chambers have brought a large number of their supporters and campaigners and they are with us today in the Public Gallery and in the seats to the rear of the committee room. I do not have all of the names. I welcome everybody and thank them for attending today's meeting.

I ask everybody to turn off their mobile phones because even when they are on silent mode they interfere with the broadcasting equipment and the quality of the broadcast. Before we commence and in accordance with procedure I am required to read the following. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I also welcome the non-members of the committee who are from the general vicinity of the N4 and N5. I wish to ensure everyone will get a chance to speak. I now invite Councillor Seamus Butler to begin the opening presentation. I ask that the delegation's opening statement be limited to approximately ten minutes in total.

Mr. Seamus Butler:

I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, and the committee for granting us the opportunity to address members. We represent nine chambers of commerce from the north midlands and the north west, an area that has a major infrastructural deficit on the N4 and N5 routes. The chambers are from Longford, Athlone, Ballina, Carrick-on-Shannon, Letterkenny, Mayo, Mullingar, Roscommon and Sligo. Many of the chambers are represented here today and some of the local authorities in the area are also represented.

Dr. Brian McCann, the programme co-ordinator of postgraduate education in road and transport engineering at Sligo IT will speak next on the technical and economic viewpoint, followed by Mr. Ciaran Corcoran, the site manager at Abbot Diagnostics in Longford and also president of IBEC in the midlands, who will speak from the business perspective. I understand we may have a question-and-answer session after that. Also present, as the Chairman mentioned, is Ms Lisa Brady, CEO of Sligo Chamber of Commerce and Industry and Mr. Bill Carty, former group finance director of Abbot Ireland.

The N4-N5 is the last spoke in the national roads radial network connecting the nation to our capital city. That should be an overarching priority over much-needed intercity connections. Most of the other radials have been completed to motorway or class 1 dual carriageway standard. The north midlands and the north west is a national asset waiting to be unlocked. The N4 and N5 area that is served by the chambers serves a population of 650,000. That is 14% of the population. There are 100,000 people living within 5 km of the N4. That provides an ideal opportunity for a development corridor, which would take the pressure off the east coast and the greater Dublin area.

We ask the committee today to consider five objectives and to include them in the review of the capital programme which is currently under way. We call for the completion of all pre-construction works, namely, the design and CPO works, in order that construction of the remainder of the N4 motorway from Mullingar to Roosky will commence by 2021. We also seek completion of all the planning and pre-construction work leading to the commencement of the construction of the N4 Dromod-to-Carrick-on-Shannon bypass by 2021. We are looking for construction on the N5 from Scramoge to Ballaghaderreen to commence in 2018 and be completed by 2021. That would also provide extra access to the international airport at Knock.

We wish to confirm that construction will commence on the N4 from Collooney to Castlebaldwin in 2018 and be completed by 2020. A safety issue has arisen in that regard. Similarly, we seek that construction on the N5 from Westport to Turlough will commence in 2018 and be completed by 2021.

I will now hand over to Dr. Brian McCann.

Dr. Brian McCann:

I thank the Chairman and other members of the joint committee for hearing our proposals I am a lecturer in the School of Engineering and Design at the Sligo Institute of Technology. I have responsibility there particularly as programme co-ordinator for the postgraduate degree in road and transport engineering.

I am also a member of the Atlantic Economic Corridor Infrastructure Committee and the Industrial Committee of Sligo Chamber of Commerce. Through being involved in those studies, I have researched and produced some information on the expenditure and infrastructure requirements for the Atlantic Corridor but also for the north west, and the need for an expansion of our infrastructure to improve business, community and tourism.

One of the key priorities is to focus on the improvement and upgrading of capacity, safety and journey times of the radial national network to which Mr. Butler alluded. The north, west and north midlands have a population of 650,000. That region, therefore, comprises 14% of the country's total population, yet it is served by only one corridor - the N4 and N5. After Mullingar, those routes are a sub-standard, deficient, single carriageway. There is a motorway as far as Mullingar and the M6 to Galway. After Mullingar, however, the road is sub-standard in terms of capacity, alignment and safety record. Part of that route has been put on a pre-construction and pre-planning phase at the moment. The design and tendering process is coming up this year. We have alluded to those matters in the last three projects under the heading of key priorities.

The first two projects are the first and second priorities due to the fact that we need a safe, consistent and efficient road network to service that region. It needs to be safe as well as reducing journey times, and fitting the potential capacity which is now above the road's current capacity.

As it leaves Dublin at the M50, the M4 is initially a three-plus-three dual carriageway which then goes into a motorway. The motorway has quite a high capacity of more than 50,000. There are about 42,000 vehicles leaving west of Maynooth. Quite quickly, at Kinnegad it diverges towards the M6. We have an extension of a motorway which was an old high-quality dual carriageway that has been upgraded. It now provides a motorway just short of Mullingar.

While we have a dual carriageway taking us around Mullingar, beyond the town we only have a single carriageway, apart from a short section from Rooskey to Dromod, which is a type 2 dual carriageway. The latter road has additional capacity as well as a much improved safety record in terms of its ability to reduce head-on collisions and particularly overtaking accidents and collisions. According to statistics from Transport Infrastructure Ireland we know that such collisions on our national roads network are particularly poor on stretches of the N4 and N5. A number of those sections have twice the number of expected accidents. It also has a potential to create additional congestion. In fact, at times it is very heavily congested.

For example, around the village of Rathowen there are flows as high as 13,000 vehicles per day, according to current figures. The road is a type 1 single carriageway with a capacity of 11,600. That road is therefore already 10% over capacity. There is a growth in transport and population in the north west which is similarly to the national figure of 3% or 4%. We expect future growth due to other factors such as Brexit and increased tourism. Betters routes and shorter travel times have the potential for increased business and commerce.

Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, has also identified the safety record of roads which have a potential for additional accidents due to over-capacity. TII has identified the routes between Westport and Turlough on the N5, and Castlebaldwin to Collooney. They have relatively low flows compared to the Dublin end of the N4, but also have particularly poor safety records. Those roads are well over capacity in many cases. We would like to see those road improvements being progressed to construction stage. From our studies with the groups I am involved with, we have discovered that those projects should go to tender this year. They should go to construction next year and it is essential that that happens.

The policy that should inform the transport sector comes from the Government's own transport infrastructure policy developed in 2015. A document entitled Our Transport Future: Strategic Investment Framework for Land Transport was done in consultation with all stakeholders across the country to try to determine how best to inform funding for the national planning framework and the capital expenditure plan. That document was published in August 2015 and contained a number of high-level findings and priorities. The first was that current funding levels are not sufficient to maintain the existing land transport network across the country. The document also said that we need to invest more to maximise the contribution of land transport to our country's national development by enhancing the efficiency of the network.

The third priority is to provide road access to poorly served regions. That is current Government policy as contained in the Department's own infrastructure report on investment in land transport. The document also sought to support identified national and regional spatial planning priorities. The national planning framework has a regional focus. While we can improve transport across the regions and thus provide business opportunities, the radial network must be completed. The most efficient one I have discovered is the N4-N5 route to the north west and north midlands. Unless that is done, we will certainly have a poorly served region which will be further inhibited by a lack of access to necessary public services. In addition, there will be a lack of access for tourism with a consequent negative effect on business promotion in the region.

The Government's own report has identified such development as a priority for safety and infrastructural investment. Engineers Ireland has also identified high quality infrastructure as an important element of modern society, strengthening economic growth and underpinning social cohesion.

Congestion and pollution is occurring in the south east and the greater Dublin area. We feel there is a lot of potential for businesses to relocate to, and new businesses to set up in, the north west if they have the proper infrastructure, shorter journey times and safer roads. People who want to move to those areas feel that the level of isolation needs to be reduced by having shorter journey times. They would thus be closer to services, including new centres of excellence in education and health. These matters are important for the general public.

Our recommendations are for the radial primary route network from Dublin to be completed with the deficient N4 and N5 upgraded to dual carriageway status by an extension of the M4 from Mullingar to Longford. That project has effectively been suspended, although it was in the national development plan. A key part of the national spatial strategy was to develop that radial network. We feel it is now time to put that back in the capital expenditure plan and to extend the current motorway just short of Mullingar right through to Longford.

The N5 branches off a Longford, so we need an appropriate dual carriageway road type for all proposed road schemes. That is the proposal but it needs to be done by a type 1 or type 2 road right through to Longford, Sligo and Westport. That will help to improve the safety and efficiency of transit for the population, tourism and business in the region and the wider economy.

We do not know what will happen in the aftermath of Brexit. However, there is likely to be a transfer of traffic from the N2 and N3, which currently serve Donegal, for example, through the North. There will be two Border crossings required as a result. That traffic is likely to transfer to the N4, which is a route that does not involve crossing the Border. The Border will be an EU frontier following Brexit. We do not know what is likely to happen regarding other factors but there will be some transfer of traffic. The current figures and the projected figures up to 2030 are likely to increase following Brexit. People in both south and north Donegal are likely to use the N4 as their main route.

Mr. Ciaran Corcoran:

I am site director of the Abbott Diagnostics facility in Longford. I am also president of the IBEC regional executive committee for the midlands, which represents business from counties Laois, Longford, Offaly, and Westmeath. I am present to support the N4-N5 joint affiliated chambers in highlighting the infrastructure deficit along the N4 route through the midlands into the north west and to share a business perspective.

The national planning framework and mid-term review of the capital investment plan present opportunities to advance the regional policy agenda and achieve more balanced regional development. In line with IDA Ireland's strategic plan, it makes economic sense to invest wisely now in the region's road network in order to allow businesses to create more jobs locally and to secure future growth. Ambitious investment is central to creating a positive brand for the region and is a key catalyst in the context of attracting and retaining foreign direct investment, FDI, there.

With regard to the key for business in decision-making in the context of FDI, infrastructure was ranked first in a recent US survey. It is a key decision factor in locating businesses. I work closely with IDA Ireland and recently people have visited our site in Longford. Discussions always focus on the infrastructure in the area and access to talent. These are the top of the agenda items for these decision makers and they go hand in hand. Balanced regional development will also create a much better brand for the region. There is a major deficit in the brand of the midlands and north-west regions. This goes hand in hand with the infrastructure we are asking to be prioritised in the capital expenditure review to attract talent to these regions and to built their brands. Without that, people will not relocate and support the FDI opportunities or even indigenous companies to drive talent into these regions. We recently hired a number of people from around the country. They are engineers and science graduates who are originally from the midlands and north-west regions and they wanted to return. Having been born and reared there, they went to college and began their careers in the south west, Dublin and Galway but they wanted to return to the midlands. There is value there and there is a proposition for us to build on in this regard but we need this infrastructure to realise the potential of the region. The key decision factor is linked to infrastructure and access to airports and ports. As my colleagues said, this is the only missing link and deficit in the radial network that needs to be addressed to close that gap.

Tourism also goes hand in hand with this, although it is a different topic. Infrastructure will enable the region to maximise its tourism potential into the future. By doing that, it will be tied to the brand of the region and will bring more jobs to the region. That will build momentum, which can be used to leverage the brand for the region and attract talent. This is all interconnected and we need to keep these factors in mind when decisions are made for the capital expenditure review.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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That concludes the submission. We have a set system where the first 15-minute slot for questions is Fine Gael's, the second is for Fianna Fáil and then there are ten minutes each for Sinn Féin and Senator Ó Céidigh. There will be time after that for non-members and for anyone who wishes to come back in.

John O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
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I warmly welcome the delegation representing chambers of commerce from the midlands, west and north west. Some are involved in industry and Sligo Institute of Technology. I thank them for their detailed briefing and not only today's. I attended a briefing they gave in Buswells Hotel prior to Christmas. I am familiar with the scene in Mayo, in particular, and the obstacles to industry provided by the lack of infrastructure but the more I read the figures presented by the delegation and the more I looked into the issue, I concluded that a collaborative approach was needed. This infrastructure is vital for the west, north west and the midlands. Deputy Troy and I pushed hard to get the delegation before the committee because, as Mr. Corcoran mentioned, the review of the capital programme is under way. The Mullingar to Rooskey section was removed from the previous capital programme in 2008. The Celtic tiger was on its way to Mullingar but never got past it. This is a no-brainer. Colleagues in various parties support this. The Brexit negotiations are about to begin. There is an economic recovery but one side of Ireland could be choked and the other cut off if action is not taken. This project affects a number of regions and could unlock their potential. The Government's aim is to have a greater percentage of the jobs created under the most recent Action Plan for Jobs go to the regions and this is a way of doing that.

I have three questions. From an industry point of view, will the witnesses explain the disadvantages they are at currently, and will be at as the years go by? Even if the project was prioritised in the capital programme, it would be years before it is delivered. What would be the positive effects if the roads in the various regions were upgraded?

Mr. Corcoran referred to the implications from a business perspective. When I read the word "talent" in the submission, I was wondering what was meant by that. Does it mean the highly-qualified people from these regions will be able to get jobs in them if this project goes ahead?

Mr. Ciaran Corcoran:

Absolutely. Jobs are not always specific. When businesses expand or when companies come in using FDI, a jobs spread is needed across them in various departments. It is scientific, supply chain and financial talent while automation and various other skill sets are required.

Attracting those people to the region is the one big factor we need to watch. It is always top of the agenda whenever we are discussing the next investment in the businesses. We need to be able to show there is a pool of talent in the area and in the country that will come to the area. This is what we are really trying to grasp here and focus on.

We may have a unique situation along the N4 with the National University of Ireland Maynooth and the Athlone, Sligo and Letterkenny institutes of technology. We have a channel of universities there. In my experience, Athlone Institute of Technology and NUI Maynooth are very engaged and want to support us. They really want to have their graduates working in that region. Given the institutions' locations, many of the graduates come from the north west and midlands areas and they would like to get through college and then relocate back to those regions. We need to provide the opportunity for those people. The Government's recent Ireland Connected strategy talks about raising the college numbers and providing the talent for the future. I see this as a key enabler towards meeting that strategy.

Mr. Seamus Butler:

I will pass over to my colleague Mr. Carty to talk of positives and negatives.

Mr. William Carty:

On the problems associated with manufacturing and the service industry, there are two ways of looking at it. There are tangible problems such as, for example, most goods today need to move on time. In other words, goods are coming in and they are wanted today. One does not hold stocks anymore and it is important that goods get there on time. One problem with coming down these roads is that coming out of Dublin and heading west up to Ballina or Sligo through the midlands, a person will encounter a 40 or 50-mile stretch with a 120 km/h speed limit while the rest of the way, one is limited to 100 km/h. If a driver is lucky, he or she would get to travel at 80 km/h. I was coming to Dublin last week and outside Roosky I was confronted by four vans travelling in front of me. It took me an age to get to Longford and I was so frustrated that I stopped for a cup of coffee. It is important that everything moves quickly and is not held up. The reality of this situation is that transport costs go up because one is then paying for the time; the poorer the state of the road the more expensive the transport costs. Depending on the nature of the product, transport costs can be as much as 20% of the product cost and manufacturers are paying to have their goods sitting on the road.

The other side of the situation concerns the intangible - Mr. Corcoran alluded to it - where we have multinational companies and their executives coming with IDA Ireland to visit areas. If an investor arrives to Dublin and then has to travel to Ballina or Sligo, it is not a pretty journey. These people are obsessed with getting down a motorway; it is what they are used to in the US with their highways. The problem is they will come and have a look and one of their first comments is, "The roads here are terrible, it took so long to get here". Over the years I have met many people who have said this and once we hear that, we can forget about it. They are not going to come back. Worse still is when they head back to their cars, go to Dublin and the next day they may head for Galway or Limerick and have a lovely spin down. Once they go down either of those routes it is "Adios" and we will not see those guys back. This situation debilitates against the regions. This is a vast expanse of region as far as Letterkenny, down to Sligo, across to Ballina and Castlebar, down to Ballaghaderreen, Longford and Athlone. Those people are all being impacted by the state of that road. It is deficient. Those whole areas in the west were dealt a bad hand in the last decade. Obviously, other areas had been a priority and by the time it was getting around to the north west things changed. There is a deficiency there that needs to be redressed.

Dr. Brian McCann:

Members asked about the positives if the infrastructure is provided. I believe it is not only towards business and industry, as Mr. Carty and Mr. Corcoran have mentioned. If we cannot transport our goods and people to and from industry quickly, efficiently and safely, it has a major inhibiting effect on both investors and in expansion and in trying to hire people who can do jobs for the various industries that are set up. There is also an issue around public services. It affects everybody. If we do not have proper infrastructure then we do not get good access to public services within the area, which can present a safety issue. This access issue especially affects access to education. There is public transport but it is very limited. Access for tourists to the Wild Atlantic Way, which is a very strong brand, is also an issue. We want to increase the potential of the region for industry, tourism, agriculture and community generally. We need to have good infrastructure for good living standards for the community; it goes hand in hand.

I have been living in Sligo for 20 years and it was mentioned to me once that the north west is isolated. It is where it is and we cannot do anything about that. It is isolated but isolation is only about the length of time it takes to get there. We no longer look at the distances, we look at the time it takes. People look at Google Maps to see how long it would take to get to Sligo, for example, using a particular route. It is very important that we make the journeys efficient and more consistent.

We must also remember that these roads are part of the strategic road network in Ireland. The strategic road network for the country has been identified not only by the Trans-European Transport Network of the European Union, but also by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. It is part of the national primary roads network and it must have those consistencies. Obviously a lot of that national network is motorway, which provides very little hindrance to travel and where there are no added junctions or intersections and no access roads. Not only do we not have a motorway, but we are two or three steps below that level with most of the N4 and N5, where there is direct access onto the roads, there are no hard shoulders and there is poor alignment and visibility. We really need to bring our infrastructure up to date and up to a consistent level right across the country. It is imperative. It will have a knock-on effect for everybody and it would mean that the region would not be as isolated. It would also, hopefully, reduce the congestion and pollution that is occurring in the Dublin region.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. McCann and the committee for bringing this forward. It is a major issue for us as public representatives in the north west. As an Oireachtas Member for the Sligo-Leitrim constituency, which covers Sligo, Carrick-on-Shannon and all the other areas that were mentioned, I was very interested to hear the points raised by Dr. McCann. I have, on a number of past occasions, listened to his presentations on the need for this upgrade and about the statistics attached to the issue.

I have met with the Chamber of Commerce in Sligo several times. I welcome to the Public Gallery Mr. Aidan Doyle from the chamber, which supports the business improvement districts and industry in Sligo. I also welcome Mr. Bill Carty, who had a long association as a senior executive with Abbott Diagnostics. This issue has been a huge contributing factor over the years where we have a deficit for jobs and infrastructure in our area. We talk about the Wild Atlantic Way, which is brilliant and it was referred to here in respect of tourism, jobs and safety. We do not have any of those provisions with the N4 or N5 and I travel that road on an almost daily basis as do my colleagues. People have said to me, and it was outlined by Dr. McCann and by Mr. Carty, that IDA Ireland has had executives from various parts of the country and worldwide in Sligo and the north-west area looking at potential sites and areas in which to invest.

Unfortunately, they find the sight of so many white crosses on the roadsides between Collooney and Castlebaldwin very off-putting. Many fatalities have occurred on this stretch of road, on which works are under way.

There is a major deficit in roads infrastructure outside Dublin. I have travelled all over the country and the area west of Mullingar has not received infrastructural investment comparable to that which has been provided in the east. Money has not been spent on the roads from Mullingar to Sligo, which are second rate. I appeal to members, when assessing the outcome of this meeting, to look favourably on the case for providing funding for the N4 and N5 roads projects, perhaps on a joint basis.

I am making a cry for help. Only recently, I met a delegation from all the chambers of commerce in counties Westmeath, Sligo, Leitrim and Longford. We seek a fair crack of the whip and a fair share of funding to upgrade infrastructure. While the Wild Atlantic Way has been a major success, business people tell me that time is money. Many industry leaders have informed me that the west is losing business and jobs because we do not have vital road infrastructure to Dublin and other ports.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. It is great to see chambers of commerce from areas near the N4 and N5 coming together and taking a proactive approach to this issue. As Senator O'Mahony stated, since we met the group in Buswells Hotel before Christmas, both he and I as well as other members of the committee have repeatedly raised the plight of businesses in the area and the need to invite a delegation to address the committee and make a strong and compelling case for the upgrade of the N4 and N5 roads. The witnesses made such a case this morning. While it would be great if the committee had the power to advance or sanction the project, unfortunately not the case. The witnesses have, however, given us the ammunition to make a compelling case to the Minister on this issue.

In recent years, investment in roads has been at an all time low. Despite rapid population growth, Ireland has the second lowest level of capital expenditure on infrastructure in Europe. Earlier this year, IBEC noted that between 90% and 95% of capital expenditure on roads is being spent on maintenance rather than building critical infrastructure. The time is right for the witnesses to make a case for this investment as the review of the capital expenditure programme is under way.

The witnesses referred to the three most important issues. We spoke at length in recent weeks about road safety. There is no doubt that as traffic on the N4 increased, the number of fatalities also increased. Last year, for the first time, progress made in reducing the number of fatalities was reversed. Sustainable regional development is also critical to the organisations represented today. As a previous speaker noted, when a company is considering making an investment in a region, infrastructure is always the first consideration. While the road to Mullingar is either motorway or dual carriageway, the further one travels west from Mullingar, the harder it becomes to attract investment. We, as public representatives, continually make a case for IDA Ireland to bring more companies to County Longford and the west. The State has a responsibility to develop the infrastructure needed to ensure the west is attractive as a location for inward investment.

On the issue of access to talent, we are fortunate to have institutes of technology in Athlone, Sligo and Letterkenny and a university in Maynooth. All these institutions are located along the M4-N4 corridor. A motorway or dual carriageway would open access to educational facilities and the Wild Atlantic Way.

The witnesses are pushing an open door as far as the committee is concerned. We will bring to bear whatever political pressure we can on the Minister to include this section of road in the review of the capital plan. Did the chambers of commerce make a formal submission to the review of the capital plan?

Reference was made to various sections of the road, including Mullingar to Longford and Longford to Rooskey. Is a specific section of the route considered a priority? The group is collaborative in nature and represents the entire north-west region. Does it have a preference as to which section of the route should be completed first? The route for the section of the M4 between Mullingar and Longford in my constituency has been identified. Has the route been identified beyond Longford?

We constantly hear about the limited capital envelope available for investment. I have pointed out to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, a number of times that the European Commission has established the European Fund for Strategic Investment, which is better known as the Juncker fund, under which €500 billion has been made available to all member states to borrow at very low interest rates for investment in much needed infrastructure. We should avail of this fund because we are not making enough use of it. Other countries with high levels of national debt, for example, Italy, are using it. Loans are made available provided the member state can demonstrate that the money will be invested in critical infrastructure.

I thank the witnesses again for making such a compelling case, which strengthens our position. Members will do everything in their power to bring pressure to bear on the relevant Minister.

Mr. Ciaran Corcoran:

On the IBEC regional teams, we spoke to the north-west regional executive committee and midlands regional executive committee and the issue was also highlighted in the west committee. Between the three areas, submissions were prepared for the overall IBEC submission to the national planning framework. The document highlighted the priorities for items such as infrastructure. The priority in all of the regions was the infrastructure needs in the various areas. However, the alignment was between the north west, midlands and west in terms of the N4 Sligo to Dublin corridor, N5 Westport to Longford route and the N4 Sligo to Dublin route in the midlands. Once the submissions were produced, we routed them through the regional executive committee in IBEC. I understand some of the councils also made submissions.

Dr. Brian McCann:

In Longford, we partnered with Longford County Council. I acknowledge the presence of the cathaoirleach of Longford County Council, Councillor Mick Cahill, and two directors of services from the council, Mr. John Brannigan and Ms Barbara Heslin. We partnered on this issue and the number one issue in our submission was the N4 from the Leitrim border to Mullingar.

As Deputy Troy knows, the route was selected over nine years ago. We have a frozen development corridor. This is not virgin territory. One cannot build so much as a hay shed in that designated corridor. It is extremely difficult to dispose of property. The corridor has been frozen for over nine years. The next step is ready to go, and the area is crying out for it. We are making a case for the whole region, but this is the one key piece of infrastructure, the missing link, from which everybody west on the N5 seeking to come to the east coast, and everybody north of Longford up to the Leitrim border on the N4 seeking to go to the capital, will benefit. We understand the Collooney-Castlebaldwin and Turlough-Westport roads will go ahead in 2018, but this is the one that, if it can be brought forward, will have an immediate benefit to the region.

I am an exporter, and exporters often have overseas visitors. I ask the committee to think of the advantage of being able to collect someone in Dublin Airport who wants to purchase one's goods or services and deliver them all the way down into the midlands by motorway or dual carriageway. It is a massive advantage. As Mr. Corcoran said, in a survey of US foreign direct investors, the key, number one item they mentioned was a highway. Until the past 18 months or two years, during which time I admit things have improved, Longford was the one county in the country without a foreign direct investment visit by IDA Ireland for a large number of years - five years or more. I ask the committee to think of the game-changer this could make for a county such as Longford. The mantra going out was that we are not suitable for foreign direct investment. Why is Abbott expanding in Longford if we are not suitable for foreign direct investment? We are an asset. We come up to Dublin and it is congested, it is very difficult to get accommodation and it is very difficult even to get in certain areas the suitable industrial space. If one travels just an hour down the country, the north midlands and the north west are open, and that is where it lies.

I appreciate the hearing we are getting today. I know the committee can only make recommendations to the Minister but I ask it to give us something to bring back to our members so we can at least say that the committee will make a very strong recommendation on our requests. We need to bring something back to our members.

Dr. Brian McCann:

I concur with Mr. Butler. We have listed what we feel are the priorities, the top one being the Mullingar-Roosky road, which impacts every traveller on that route and every vehicle and person using it. That is the number one priority because it has the largest need. Deputy Troy asked about the timescale. Unfortunately, it is also the one that has been off the table for so long, and it needs to be put back on the table. It needs to go through the pre-planning, consultation, design and tendering stages, which may not commence until 2021.

The second priority is the Dromod to Carrick-on-Shannon road. The Roosky bypass is great. Any dual carriageway is better that any single carriageway. It does not matter how wide the single carriageway is - dual carriageways are much safer and provide overtaking opportunities and less congestion, and travel times are more predictable. Predictability of travel times is needed for industry. The route between Dromod and Carrick-on-Shannon goes through Carrick-on-Shannon. That is the only major town on the route that is traversed, so there is a real need for a bypass around Carrick-on-Shannon as well to try to reduce the journey times to the north west particularly. The other three projects are on the table and we hope they will progress. They not only represent safety issues, but the roads are also congested.

Another point to make is that the Minister yesterday, I think, stated that a report will come out soon that will verify the figures, but the cost to the economy of the congestion in the Dublin region is €350 million per annum at present. That is constant through health, lost travel time, lost work time, pollution and other aspects. It is likely to rise to €2 billion per annum by 2033. These are figures the Department is now producing in a report that will examine the implications of the congestion we have in the greater Dublin area. It is all the more important, therefore, that one of the regions adjacent to Dublin and beyond into the north west is provided with better infrastructural services and facilities.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman for allowing me to say a few words as I am not a member of the committee. I welcome everybody from the different organisations. I thank Mr. Butler, Dr. McCann, Mr. Corcoran and Mr. Carty, whom I know quite well from Sligo. Mr. Butler referenced Abbott Ireland. Not alone does it have operations in Longford, but we have Abbott companies in Sligo which contribute massively to the economy of the area and employ I do not know how many people in total, certainly well into the hundreds or thousands anyway. It is massive when one thinks about it. They employ people from the surrounding areas of Sligo, not just Sligo town, including Ballymote, Collooney and Tubercurry.

In support of what has been requested today, I have met quite recently IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, and they say there is no question but that the major issue in trying to get companies to the north west, particularly to Sligo, is the road. We do not have an airport as we did before, which made it easier for people - company managers and directors - to consider Sligo as an option when one could fly in and fly out. Now all we have is the road. It is a very poor road. I am glad that the Casltebaldwin stretch from Castlebaldwin to Sligo, which is a 12 km part of the road, was enforced. We all hope that will be started next year, and we are told it will. When one considers that 27 people were killed on that stretch of road of 12 km - 27 fatalities over the past few years - I hope this will help in some small way.

I understand the Mullingar to Roosky route has been selected. I know how this work takes place and all the controversy, the problems and everything else it creates for local authorities and council members, but it is good to know that it has been selected. Over the past year particularly, there have been quite a number of launches of development plans and so on, but what we really and truly need is a commitment. This road will have to be done in stages. I am talking about the N4 mostly now; the N5 is another issue. What we need is a commitment to go to stage one. We need a road plan - excuse the pun - of where we are going. Even if the Minister said tomorrow morning that the Department will complete the N4 from Mullingar to Roosky, we are looking at six or seven years before we get near the road, quite honestly, when all the preparatory works are carried out. If we are serious about regional development and if we are to have any hope in the north west, it is crucial that this commitment be given. Even if a commitment were given to begin work on the road, even if it were next year or the year after, it will still take quite a long time to get to the stage at which advanced work is carried out on the road. What we need is that commitment so that we can say to people who are planning on investing, hopefully, in the north west that it will start, that a programme is in place and that it will be completed. That is crucial.

There is no doubt about it: Dublin is bursting at the seams. People cannot live here because they cannot afford the accommodation. There are people I know commuting from Longford and from Carrick-on-Shannon to Dublin. That is very unfair on those people and their families, so it is crucial that the commitment be given. All we want is a commitment that this road will start at a particular time, that the process will be started and that, once started, it will be finished eventually.

Whatever I can do to support what is being done here, I will do.

I apologise on behalf of Deputy Eugene Murphy who cannot be here this morning.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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That is noted, thank you.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chairman for allowing me to contribute this morning. I am not a member of the committee but I am deputising for Deputy Imelda Munster.

I welcome everyone from all the chambers across the north west, the midlands and down into Mayo who are here to convey a simple message. It is a region that has been left behind because of an infrastructural deficit. All of Ireland has a difficulty in that we are well below par as a developed country in our level of infrastructural spending. That is a general comment and it would be recognised internationally. It is something we need to address. It is widely known that if there is activity it creates opportunity and that opportunity creates more activity and so the spiral goes upwards. The difficulty for the vast number of people living in the north west is that the spiral has either stopped or started going in the opposite direction, going downward. In order to arrest that, we need investment from Government. It is often said that we can only spend what we have got, that the economy is like a household budget. That is not true. The reality is that when money is invested into an economy and into infrastructure such as this, it has a return or a pay back and that pay back in the long term is often better than what was put in. Even looking at the short term, road building might not be the best example but it is an example. If we spend €100 million, the activity that creates through taxation, through income tax, through VAT and so on, there could be a 40% return on that €100 million in the first year. It is not really a spend of €100 million. There is also the additional activity created on the outskirts which creates more, because all the people who go to work on the road will buy their diesel and petrol and go for sandwiches. They are living and creating economic activity in their local economy.

Government investment in infrastructure of this nature is not a cost. It is an investment and one which has a return which is much greater than the cost. This is one of the big things missing from this conversation. The north west brings to mind Sligo, Yeats country, surfing, Donegal, Carrick-on-Shannon and boating on the Shannon; there is all this tourism in those areas, but to this one can add the opportunities for economic development. Recently, I was speaking to a senior manager in a company in Britain. They were considering moving some of their manufacturing because of Brexit. This person had a connection with Leitrim and was talking about trying to convince their company to move some of the production to the north west. The problem they hit against was the travel time of their product to the port. They said they would really like to do it but we want to be near Dublin so that we can be near the port. That was the immediate obstacle they had to overcome. That is not an obstacle put in place by the people who live in the north west, but by under-investment for many years. To turn that around, not only do we need to put the investment in, but we need to emphasise the positives of the region. The production economics in an area which has a lower cost of living, lower rents, a greater quality of life and, though it might seem airy-fairy, a happier workforce because of those things, are things that cannot be bought. It cannot be measured in a metric by economists but makes a real difference to people's lives, the 14% of Irish people, some 650,000 people of that region. For quite a small investment by Government, although it might seem like a lot of money, we could make the north west and the west into a region that will pay huge dividends and contribute greatly to the overall economic advancement of the country. As my colleagues noted earlier, access to that capital is there at a very low interest rate.

The argument the witnesses have put forward today is welcome and is pushing an open door. Representatives from all parties would say that. Our difficulty is trying to convince the Minister who unfortunately has not been open for this to happen. We welcome that they have strengthened our hand in this and do what we can to raise it with the Minister, the Taoiseach or the Government. We have a Taoiseach from the west and before he relinquishes his responsibilities as Taoiseach, maybe it would be one of his priorities. It would be very welcome if he did that. Maybe we could put that to him on his return from Canada.

Between the presentations and the questions which have been asked already, I have no questions to ask and there is nothing else to be said except that the big issue is about convincing Government that this is not a cost it is an investment which will have a return. The witnesses have done a good job on that and I thank them for coming here and making that clear.

John O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for answering all the questions. Above any group which has come before us, there is a unanimous approach from its side and from ours. It has been pointed out already that the committee cannot allocate funding, but what I hope to do, along with Deputy Troy and other members is that we, as a committee, would make a recommendation to the Minister that this be right on the top of the capital review. We have all the facts and figures here now. I will propose that and while I cannot speak for the whole committee I can speak for many of them. I hope that we can do that and advance it in every way we can. We can talk about providing jobs and so on but we need the infrastructure to ensure they are distributed to the regions. There are other projects that other members of the committee will push too, but both members and non-members will push this, firstly at the committee. Every little helps.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to second that. For clarity, how much is needed to get the project off the ground over the years? Would it be a couple of million?

Mr. Seamus Butler:

If Deputy Troy means the N4 between Mullingar and the Leitrim border, the next stage is design and CPO preparation. That will cost around €5 million. That is the initial stage over the next year or two. The aim would be to go into construction in 2021 and be completed in 2023. As Deputy Scanlon said, that is six years. We have to get it off the ground and onto the capital programme. Longford County Council met with TII in December 2016. They more or less said that they could not open a file or sharpen a pencil on the N4 section unless it gets onto the capital programme. That is what we are asking for here.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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About €5 million over a three-year period is what is being looked for.

Mr. Seamus Butler:

That would bring it to tender stage, then it is about spending the big bucks. We appreciate the support from all parties. We are apolitical here. We took the approach that this will benefit everyone in the region. If it is possible to get that over the board and convince the Minister, we will have done a good day's work today.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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One of the potential shortfalls highlighted by the statistics Dr. McCann provided is that we do not have the same volumes of traffic as other parts of the country. That is a factor in the context of investment. How can it be overcome? There are huge volumes of traffic into other parts of the country. I am not a member of this committee but I am a Member of the Oireachtas and I represent the constituency of Sligo-Leitrim, which includes parts of Donegal and Cavan. My biggest concern is in regard to the southern end of the country, particularly when I hear people talking about a Cork to Limerick road and various other places. We have an obligation here. In the aftermath of the presentations that have been made here this morning, we must do whatever we can to improve the situation in the west, the north west and the north midlands. Can Dr. McCann say how we can reverse the shortfall compared to the south of the country? We will not get the volumes that there are in other parts of the country. Mr. McCann mentioned figures, perhaps per day, on some routes.

Dr. Brian McCann:

Relative to the capacity of the type of road that is there, volumes are over capacity. There is a very good document from Transport Infrastructure Ireland, National Road Network Indicators 2016, the most recent version of which contains a lot of schematics, tables and diagrams showing the infrastructure and its various aspects and attributes. One of the aspects which can be seen very clearly in terms of volume-to-capacity ratio is that many parts of the N4, including the section from Castlebaldwin to Collooney, and the section of the N5 from Turlough to Westport are far over capacity. They are above 120% of capacity. There are 12,500 vehicles per day coming through Castlebar. In most places, that route is a type 2 road with a capacity of only 8,600. Similarly, the Collooney to Castlebaldwin road is not a type 1 carriageway or dual carriageway. There are no hard shoulders on the majority of it. Its capacity is only just over 8,000. The traffic on that road is well over 10,000 vehicles per day in many parts. There are similar problems and a major bottleneck at Carrick-on-Shannon, where the road goes through the town and is really a relief road. One has to look at the individual route and whether it is safe and within capacity. If it is over capacity, not only does that mean that congestion causes issues with travel times but it also makes it very unsafe because people try to overtake in locations where they ought not, which leads to many accidents. The Dromod to Roosky bypass, which was upgraded a number of years ago, is much safer and has a higher capacity of approximately 20,000 vehicles per day. That section is likely to be the type of dual carriageway that will be put in place between Castlebaldwin and Collooney. It will allow for expansion, ease of access, better overtaking and increased safety.

The N4 is a national primary road and an arterial route for the whole country to the north west, the west, and the north midlands. It services a very large region. The amount of traffic is constricted by the poor quality of the road. If there were a wider road, it is likely that there would be more ease of access and that might lead to an increase in tourism. The nearest access to the Wild Atlantic Way from Dublin, the main centre of population, and any traffic that comes from the UK to visit the west of Ireland is to travel along the N4. To give access to that facility, our businesses and potential sites that we have earmarked, there needs to be an improvement in the road. IDA Ireland is trying to develop and encourage foreign direct investment but it is hindered by the fact that the route is substandard and unsafe. Obviously, other regions and other Deputies will argue that other locations need investment and they may have good points but it is important to put the main strategic road network first. In the region that all the witnesses represent, the road network is the only network. There are alternatives for those going to parts of the country such as the south and the south west and the road network from Dublin to the main centres of population at least is of good quality but the same cannot be said of the N4 or N5.

Mr. William Carty:

If one thinks of Ireland as a heart, there is one artery missing. It is as simple as that. The artery going to the north and the north west is missing. All the other parts of the country are linked up but there is a deficit there. It is the one that is missing.

John O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
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It needs a triple bypass.

Mr. William Carty:

Yes. A stent will do nothing. However, it is a serious issue.

Mr. Ciaran Corcoran:

In regard to the comment Deputy Martin Kenny made about a self-perpetuating situation, recent jobs growth figures from IDA Ireland show that the south-east and south-west regions gained over 10,000 new jobs between 2012 and 2016. In the same period, the figure for the north west and the midlands combined was less than 1,000. That is the scale of the gap which is there.

Mr. William Carty:

There is a serious point to add which is that when these guys arrive in town and then leave, they are not coming back but are going to pitch their tents somewhere else. Inevitably, where they pitch their tents is where they stay, along with any benefits they bring. There is a double whammy.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I know Mr. Butler said the corridor was identified, but has the route been selected?

Mr. Seamus Butler:

It is down to a sufficient corridor to develop a motorway area. The consultation period was gone through in the mid-2000s and therefore it is selected. It is next to move to design and compulsory purchase order. That is what we are specifically asking for. That is relatively low expenditure. It is not getting into the main capital expenditure, which is why it is a low-hanging fruit that can be picked without committing a large amount. Hopefully, as the economy improves, funding will be there for the capital investment.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What is the current journey time from the M50 to Sligo at peak times and what would be the position if all phases of the M4 were completed? What would be the difference in journey time?

Dr. Brian McCann:

At peak times, the journey out of Dublin can be a major factor. In average peak weekday traffic, it would be a three-hour journey to Sligo. If there were a motorway the whole way, that could be reduced by at least 30 minutes. Galway to Dublin is a longer journey than Sligo to Dublin by the current route. In terms of travel time, however, it takes just over two hours to get from Galway to Dublin.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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And three hours to get to Sligo.

Dr. Brian McCann:

It takes three hours to get to Sligo. There would be anywhere between half an hour to an hour reduction in journey time. The level of accidents which have occurred over the years, which have been a terrible burden to the population in the north west and the north midlands, would decrease significantly as well.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am from a peripheral county, Kerry. We did not have the M7 from Portlaoise to Adare until 2010. The one thing that always struck me while travelling the regular single-lane route was the number of crosses and headstones along the old N7. It was absolutely frightening. It is now a nice journey because one gets on the motorway and off one goes. I very much feel the witnesses' pain as once one gets to Adare, it will take at least another hour and a half to get to the Dingle peninsula.

Looking at the figures compiled for the north west and the midlands in terms of investment and jobs, there is definitely a correlation between accessibility and reducing peripherality. It is two-way traffic. It opens up the jobs market of the east to people who are resident in that location and also potential investors encountering that lack of infrastructure totally diminishes an the opportunity for an area to get-----

Dr. Brian McCann:

It is not just anecdotal evidence. Both Engineers Ireland in its state of infrastructure reports and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in its strategic investment plan for land transport have indicated the strong link between accessibility, investment and the economy. One of the main priorities is that not only do we need to target poorly serviced areas, we also need to front-load the investment because of the lack of past expenditure. As Deputy Troy mentioned, just over 1% of GDP is spent on infrastructure in this economy, which is much lower than the European average. Therefore, there is a need to front-load investment to effectively complete the national development plan.

John O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
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To put this in context, this morning I left Ballaghaderreen at 5 a.m. to be here at 8 a.m. Sligo is another hour away, Donegal is another two hours, Westport another hour and a half, and Belmullet through Ballina would be another two and a half hours. That is the context. As I am from the centre of the western province, this is really the heart of the matter. I was driving a car but a person driving a juggernaut could add another 30% to those times.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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There is also the question of the quality of the environment in the villages and towns along the route, given that HGVs and heavy volumes of traffic can destroy such places.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I have a final question for Dr. McCann. He mentioned Brexit in the context of the north west and the routes we have been discussing. Does he foresee a possible increase in traffic volumes through Donegal from Northern Ireland to the north west?

Dr. Brian McCann:

The current access between Donegal and the greater Dublin area goes through the North, in particular the A5. There was a plan to strengthen the A5 and bring it through to the N2. There is also the Cavan road going through Enniskillen to the south Donegal area. Obviously, travel times could increase on those routes and restrictions could create delays for tourists and could detrimentally affect the economy of County Donegal. Although this has not been measured and there is a need to study the impact in more detail, it is likely people will try to avoid the various tariffs and other factors that will be imposed-----

Mr. Seamus Butler:

Goods traffic will transfer to the N4.

Dr. Brian McCann:

There will be goods traffic and people who have to stop behind the tailbacks, which will be mostly goods traffic, will end up being delayed on those routes. This is likely to have an impact on the N4. Therefore, we are talking about a problem of increased traffic not just on the N4 but around Sligo and onwards into Donegal. The whole length of the N4 will likely be the route of choice for many businesses and people who are travelling.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses and committee members for their engagement this morning. A proposal was made by Senator O'Mahony and seconded by Deputy Troy in regard to making a recommendation from the committee. I acknowledge that Senator O'Mahony and Deputy Troy have been seeking this meeting for many months. On behalf of the committee, I want to apologise as we have had a very busy schedule and it took some time to arrange this meeting. It was not for the want of trying by the said members. I am glad this meeting took place as it was useful in the context of the review of the capital plan. I propose that the full transcript of today's meeting is sent to the Ministers for Transport, Tourism and Sport and Public Expenditure and Reform.