Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As we have a quorum, the committee is now in public session. We are joined today by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. Malachy Quinn, senior auditor. We have received no apologies at this stage.

The first item on the agenda is the minutes of last week's meetings on 6 April. Are the minutes of last week's meeting agreed? Agreed. With regard to matters arising from the minutes, if members want to raise items under correspondence that they feel might be relevant to last week's meeting, we can do that. We will come to correspondence in a moment. We will move on to the next item on the agenda, item No. 3.

We will deal with some of last week's meeting first. We have some correspondence arising from last week's meetings but we will deal with it under matters arising. We are all fully aware we had a meeting with a number of institutions from the third level sector and we are waiting for information back from most of them at this stage. From UCC we are waiting on a number of things including its policy on intellectual property rights, the management of conflicts of interest, a note on the IMI transfer, retired staff on contract and financial assistance to students. From the University of Limerick, we are waiting on items such as a note paid to the Revenue on sabbatical figures, details on non-Irish students, a note on the Mazars review and a note on the number of complaints leading to internal and external reports or settlement. That follows on from the issue of whistleblowers. We have received a response to our correspondence from Dundalk IT which is in our correspondence list this morning. From Waterford Institute of Technology we are waiting for further information on the campus company FeedHenry. We are awaiting details on staffing such as gender breakdown and details of full-time and part-time staff, further information on the library subscription service as well as implications of the delay to the Grangegorman development. From NUIG among the things we are waiting for is information on procurement, gender and staffing, casualisation of staff contracts, and university shares as they relate to intellectual property. We are also waiting for information from the HEA and the Department of Education and Skills on these matters.

There are a lot of issues arising from our meetings in the last couple of weeks with the third level institutions. We will give a little bit of time for the information to come back which hopefully will be over the next week. When we are here again, we will have hopefully received responses to all the matters that we have raised with them at their meeting. We will need to consider what action to take at that point. Does anybody have any comment?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Cullinane and I have submitted to the Chairman a fairly comprehensive list of questions and issues that we believe need to be answered by the HEA but also by the Department of Education and Skills. The questions are on issues regarding whistleblowers. Last week, we raised this with Dr. Love from the HEA, which he said was open to providing us with a fairly detailed oversight of the processes, procedures and instances around whistleblowers and other issues. I do not propose to go through every item but we ask that this is followed up on.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That only arrived late last night so it has not been circulated to members. I saw it just a minute ago. I do not think other members have the document yet because it arrived late yesterday evening. It will be circulated today.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that other members will want to have a look at it. It is comprehensive but straightforward. There is nothing hugely surprising in it but we have gone to the trouble of itemising it for the purpose of being specific rather than making a general request of the parties that they have the specifics we are looking for. I wanted to bring that to the Chairman's attention.

I have two other issues. May I raise them now?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On that issue, I propose that when members receive this by the middle of next week, any member who wants to add anything to it should contact the clerk and, if not, we will send it on next week. We will give people a day or two to look at it but we will send it on next week.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The second thing relates to the Comptroller and Auditor General. One of the issues we raised last week is the area of intellectual property and its commercialisation and the processes, procedures, oversight, conflicts of interest, the money in terms of revenues generated and who got what proportionately. We proposed a special investigation and it is still my view that we need it. We need to get under the bonnet of this. One of the difficulties we have is that the Comptroller has the discretion and authority to audit the institutions but there is the issue of all of these spin-out companies. We need to know what happens thereafter because the innovation in the first instance is incubated and financed by lots of public money. As it is such an important sector in terms of job creation, it is really important that we get on top of that. We had made a proposal. Mr. McCarthy was not here last week but we made a proposal on a special report or some similar mechanism to explore that area. I would be interested to hear what he has to say on that.

I have a third issue but I am happy to come back in on it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This issue was mentioned at the last meeting. The Comptroller and Auditor General is familiar with the issue. I think there is agreement on the committee. A remark was made by Waterford IT on the return on investment for the State. What will have to be established by somebody is what was the investment by the State. It is a meaningless comment to make to us. It is gratuitous to tell us about the return on investment when nobody has an idea what the actual investment was by way of the incubation unit, staff resources, facilities and equipment provided by the taxpayer in Waterford, direct grants from the HEA, grants, which we are aware of, probably from Enterprise Ireland, possibly training grants from European taxpayers and possibly a whole lot more. We are in a position where we have no concept of what the State investment was for the relative shareholding it got at the end of the day. We ultimately have to get to the bottom to know the State's investment. The suggestion is that it is a broad issue in all of the colleges but the FeedHenry company is the one that has come to light. We cannot direct the Comptroller and Auditor General to do a report but we can ask him to consider it. He might consider it or give us his observations on it. At this stage, we cannot pin him down for a definite answer. One way or the other, the Committee of Public Accounts will not move away from this topic.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

On FeedHenry specifically, the financial statements we are currently auditing of Waterford IT are the 2014-2015 year of account. The FeedHenry disposal was in that period. Therefore, we are examining the transaction as it relates to the financial statements currently. The issues the Chairman has raised are perfectly valid. I will have to consider whether it would be appropriate to do a special report. It would have to be a value-for-money report on the disposal of FeedHenry. For me, the issues that would arise if I decide to do that would be exactly what the Chairman has said, to look at it over time and to ask where it came from, how did it get to be intellectual property and how were the shares attributed and on what basis; that is the decision-making process around that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General will need to treble his staff.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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He will need more staff.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is obviously an issue. The issues that are raised are probably bigger than would be central to the audit of the financial statements. In order to finish the audit of the financial statements in a timely way, I may have to consider parking it or moving it over and commencing a value-for-money report. I would have to alert the college to that if I was moving in that direction. In terms of a special report, it is worth noting that spin-out companies and the interests of colleges across the sector are listed in their annual financial statements anyway.

If one looks at the financial statements, one will see a list of all the spin-outs. That information is included. Perhaps the committee might consider communicating with the HEA if it is not satisfied with the sufficiency of the information-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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In what?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In the financial statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is none. There is just this list.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is a listing, yes. If the committee was of the view that additional information should be given or disclosures made - for example, when a spin-out actually happens - it could ask the HEA to ask the colleges to include additional information.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is that scope for the committee if it is not satisfied with the level of information provided in the routine annual financial statement.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Clearly, it is not. Otherwise we would not be having this discussion. Does Mr. McCarthy wish at the next meeting to give the committee his view on the audit and whether it is appropriate or whether we should go through the HEA to find out the information?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. We are already discussing it internally and I have asked for additional information on FeedHenry. I will be making a decision in the next couple of weeks. I am certainly aware of the committee's concerns expressed last week about accelerating the completion of financial statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will come to that issue in one minute.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In general, we try not to hold up financial statements, but the committee perhaps might need to be aware that I do not have a vehicle for reporting on an individual issue or concern about a set of individual financial statements. I only have the-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McCarthy mean that he does a report on the financial statements or that he does a special report?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Exactly. I do not have another vehicle. It is different with the appropriation accounts because we have the report on the accounts of public services which is provided for in law. If an issue comes up, for example, on the Vote for education or health, I have a vehicle to report on it. I do not have an analogous vehicle to report a concern, let us say, about a probity matter or an individual set of financial statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, in order that people will understand the subtlety, if Mr. McCarthy is dealing with the annual audit of the appropriation accounts of a line Department, for example, the Department of Education and Skills which we are currently discussing and an issue comes to light, he can include a specific chapter on it in his annual report.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Exactly.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When it comes to the financial statements of other organisations which he audits, other than the appropriation accounts, he does not have a mechanism to include a special chapter in his report. That is something at which we need to look. Mr. McCarthy is only in a position to highlight issues to us about line Departments. Where he believes there is a need to provide additional information, he has such a mechanism for line Departments, but he does not have one for the other 300 organisations, the accounts of which he audits. On the face of it, there is a gap.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is a provision to attach a supplement to the audit certificate of the education and training boards.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It might be helpful-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

However, it holds up completion of certification. That is the point.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McCarthy might send us an information note on the matter. If we believe there is a gap in the system of public accountability that is not covered by the legislation, we will come back to the issue.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, we did receive a list. Although the Chairman might think there was not enough information included and I bow to his experience, there was not only information but also a list of all the companies, with figures of 8%, 10% or 15%. Our difficulty is whether it is value for money. How is it arrived at? There is no such information. It is a different level of debate and I do not know at what venue we need to look in that regard. Certainly, NUIG came forward with its entire list and one could not fault it. It stated what the percentage was and gave us all the information. I say that to be positive about NUIG. To return to what is outstanding, it is to come back with a breakdown in terms of gender and so on.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I read it just a minute ago.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I missed it. I am sorry.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Among the other things for which we are waiting from each of the colleges, including NUIG, is information on procurement and gender balance.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On that point, NUIG applied for the Athena SWAN, a prestigious award given when gender equality meets a certain standard. In applying for the award it would have had to have all of that information at its fingertips. I was extracting the information and it was subsequently brought to my attention that all of it had to be at its fingertips in applying for the Athena SWAN.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will surely receive it shortly then.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will. Will we be coming back to the health executive later?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will come to it specifically under the heading of correspondence.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is fine.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I completely agree that there is a need to look at this area and can see where the constraints are, but one other associated issue is the big loss recorded by the DIT in terms of access to journals for the library. There seems to be a variety of approaches to the issue taken by some of the colleges. The amount of their own material to which they have access also varies. It seems that some of them do better than others. There may well be a higher cost being paid. It might be a better approach to do it in a more collaborative way. Is this something that can be addressed in the overall context or is it separate?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy talking about library costs?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Is the Deputy asking about access to journals and so on? I have a couple of observations in that respect. Among the universities there is a system for accessing journals; I think it is called IReL. It is being managed by the National University of Ireland, Maynooth on behalf of all of the universities. It provides the network for it. It is funded by the HEA to collaboratively provide access for all of the universities. I do not think the institutes of technology have access to it, but whether there is scope to extend it is something that could be addressed with the HEA. It is just a suggestion.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Public funds and money are used to educate the person who produces the research. The research is not paid for by the journal to which it is submitted. The researchers have to sign a copyright agreement with it. It is then peer-reviewed, again at no cost to the journal, and the researchers producing the work have to sign a copyright agreement. They must even carry indemnity against litigation. At the same time, they receive 50 copies free for themselves. After that, in a lot of cases, they actually have to pay to access their own work. It strikes me that something is being paid for from the public purse, in terms of education and the generation of knowledge, which is then sold back. I know that there is international collaboration, but it seems that it is one-way traffic only and that there is no return to the colleges which I think there should be.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That might be slightly broader than the point I was raising. I misunderstood.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As a result of last week's meeting about the DIT's loss of €750,000 on the library contract and the shared service agreement being operated in Limerick, we need to write to the organisation which was referenced in the president of the DIT's opening statement and ask what other institutes of technology were involved and if the organisation can give us some information on their possible losses. If it cannot, we will ask it to give us the names and we will write to each of them because the Dublin case seemed to be a complete outlier as to the level of loss incurred compared to the others. I know that the DIT is the biggest, but we want to get the full picture of the cost to the institute of technology sector as a result of the contract. We only know about the DIT.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I have raised some of the issues raised last week and in the past few weeks. A narrative has been spun by some since and questions have been asked about the commercialising of intellectual property. It has been suggested that, as a committee, we do not really understand how all of this works. There was a misunderstanding of the questions being put. I can only speak for myself but I imagine for most member also. The committee will agree that we made it very clear that spin-outs and the commercialising of intellectual property were good. Taking advantage of research from institutes in creating jobs and companies, given the value such companies can have, not just for an institute but also for a wider catchment area is all good. That is not in question. Researchers and academics commercialising intellectual property is fine.

None of that was in doubt or was questioned. What was being examined was at the point where a private company establishes contact with an institute to transfer the ownership or licence of its IP how the institute is protected, how conflicts of interest managed and all of the questions and issues raised by others. All of that is fair and it is within our remit.

Following the meeting last week one of the witnesses to whom I put questions suggested he would rather resign than continue with that line of questioning because he felt it was damaging the institute. That was followed up by a press statement from a Minister of State in the Department of Education and Skills inferring something similar and suggesting that the questions that were being put would have a destabilising effect on the institution and its joint application with the Carlow Institute of Technology to become a technological university. There was also an inference from a number of parties that somehow the line of questioning of the witness in question from the Committee of Public Accounts and me was an attempt to damage the institute. There was also a view that I was inferring that a crime had been committed by the president of the institute. To be fair to you, Chairman, I wish to make it very clear that at every stage and every single hearing I stressed that I personally was not alleging any wrongdoing. I make no apology for putting questions on process and procedures. That is what we are here to do. We have to put robust questions, as other members did of institutes in their constituencies as well. It is not done to damage them but to strengthen them. What we are here to do is to strengthen processes. We cannot allow a situation where individuals try to pick off members of the PAC and we have seen that approach from other Ministers as well. It is not good for the PAC and we must protect ourselves.

I have received a number of protected disclosures from people who worked in WIT as researchers and I have not put any of the allegations made into the public domain. What I have done is given a synopsis of them to the Comptroller and Auditor General this morning. I will also meet with the head of the Higher Education Authority, HEA, to give him a similar synopsis. That is following due process and doing what is appropriate. The HEA is doing an external review of what was an internal examination of the management of conflicts of interest in WIT. It has asked for suggestions and ideas on the terms of reference and I submitted draft terms of reference to the HEA as well.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the document Deputy Cullinane submitted yesterday?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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No, this is separate. This was on my own behalf and not on behalf of the PAC. Given that the HEA is carrying out an external review and given the limitations on the Comptroller and Auditor General in terms of what he can and cannot do, it might be an opportunity for the HEA to use the Waterford example to go under the bonnet, as it were, and look at the type of issues we are looking at? I can furnish the PAC with my suggested terms of reference and the HEA will be back before the committee at some point.

It is important for me to put on record that we must be able to do our job without fear or favour. We must be able to put questions fairly. It is unfair for Ministers of State or witnesses to put any undue pressure on us in terms of the questions we put because we simply would not be able to do our job. I fully stand over my bona fides and integrity in terms of the questions I put.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I confirm that on every single occasion when Deputy Cullinane spoke on that topic, and to every institution, he did not suggest any wrongdoing or fault but that he just wanted to get the facts and to find out the policy that was being implemented. The Deputy raised the management of conflicts of interest on every occasion. We made it clear that we were not asking the individual about his own personal finances. That was made clear publicly as well. From that point of view, in terms of everything we did, we were doing our job on the day.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Cullinane referred to strengthening processes. One of the things I am not sure is happening on a regular basis is that when we have institutions or other bodies before us giving evidence, for the want of a better word, and we ask them for information that we follow up on it in order to be thorough. For example, I asked UCC for figures on its allocation for access for disadvantaged students and I do not know whether we got any correspondence back from it. It is important we do that for the committee's sake because otherwise people will come in here and pay lip service but will not follow up. I urge that we would ensure we follow up on all issues.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Madigan is correct. The secretariat and I keep an eye and check. Even when we get a reply from an institution of which we might have asked eight or nine questions we might get good answers to six of them but two of them might not be fully answered. In such cases we always go back to seek all the necessary information. We give people a little time to come back to us.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is important that we do so in order for our work to be fully comprehensive.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to speak on the same topic. I wish to puzzle out what I think is an extraordinary intervention by the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan. To me it is astonishing that a Minister of State would consider it appropriate to put out a statement and to rap the knuckles of the Committee of Public Accounts. I have the statement in front of me. The Minister of State said he felt he had to come out and defend somebody's reputation and then he almost warned us to back off. That seems to me to be the message. Be that as it may, the question then arises as to what we as a committee do because no individual is cited. I have no doubt Deputy Cullinane was in the Minister of State's sights, possibly for constituency reasons. The Deputy is not instanced in the statement, however, the committee is and I wish to know what we are going to do about that.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Did the statement appear in the media?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It was published.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Was it in the national newspapers?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It was in the local newspapers.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It was in the Waterford News & Starand on WLR FM.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was a published statement by the Minister of State in the line Department.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The issue is whether it was in the local chronicle or splattered across The Irish Times, what I am querying is that a Minister of State would deem it appropriate to intervene in that way. I think it is completely inappropriate. I cannot imagine what he was thinking, bar maybe jockeying for position within his constituency, but that is for him to explain. We need to decide what we do about it.

I would have thought, at a minimum, the committee ought to write to the Minister of State and inform him that we are doing our job and that we will continue to do so. If he has something specific to add to our deliberations he is at liberty to write to us as a committee and to offer to come in and to share the benefit of his wisdom but we need to stop this because the question then is "What next?" Every Minister can fire out statements willy-nilly and attempt to undermine what has been very thorough work, and very necessary work. We are appointed on behalf of the Oireachtas to do the job and Ministers need to let us get on with it. I want to know from you, a Chathaoirligh, what in your view is the appropriate course of action.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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My view on it is this - we are in an open society and anybody is entitled to criticise our work, including line Ministers or any member of the public if they do not think we are doing a good job. People have the right to criticise us. We are not above criticism. In the press release by the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan, he also warned that any incorrect suggestions of impropriety could have a seriously destabilising effect on the institute at a critical point in its campaign for technological university status. We should write to the Minister of State and ask him to clarify and specify what incorrect suggestions of impropriety he is referring to. I do not think we made any suggestion of impropriety.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely not.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask him if he can back it up. We will ask him to explain and verify his statement and if he cannot he should withdraw that aspect of the statement. However, he is entitled to make remarks.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He is, and we are all entitled to say what we wish, within the boundaries of the law and decency. The difficulty is that the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan, is sited within his Department. In that regard, are we setting ourselves up for a position whereby, as we consider matters in the Department of Justice and Equality, for example, that it is okay for the Minister to come out with a statement rather than in an off-the-cuff manner?

This was deliberate. This was a decision made by the Minister of State to put this into the public domain to question the bona fides of the work of the committee and the standard of work of the committee, and essentially, to say to us very publicly to back off. That is what this statement is all about. That is problematic. Notwithstanding we all enjoy our freedom of speech, that is problematic from the point of view of the Oireachtas.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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My view on it is-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is the question now.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This press release appears to have come from the Department. I do not who DJEI is.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This has come from a Department. We have a job here and we do not take kindly to Ministers or Ministers of State trying to cut across our work. I would put it this way. If he had issued it from this own constituency office-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is the same thing. This is departmental. That is my point.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This is from the Department. The Deputy might want us to take it up with the senior Minister as well. I do not mind. We want that clarified.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Lastly, this is not to start rapping people on the knuckles. I am all for people saying. Had he personally-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Issued a statement.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----said it casually, we would take a different view. This comes from his Department and that is problematic for this committee.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is the issue.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I just want to know for my own information if this has ever occurred previously - if a Minister has written like this - and also whether or not it is something the CPP could consider because he is also a member of the Dáil.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Pardon?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The CPP.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will not go there yet.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is an option-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is an option.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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-----if we are not sure of what way to approach it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We should move on. A valuable issue has been raised. The fact that they are complaining about us must mean we are doing a good job with the help of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We should go ahead with it. The suggestion is practical. That should be done immediately.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, we will do that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The issue is bigger than us. It is an issue for the Dáil. It has arisen with the Minister, Deputy Noonan, prior to this and the Department.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is slightly different when the key person who led the questioning on the particular day happens to be in the same constituency as the Minister.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is not a coincidence.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The targeting of-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, individual members.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----members in that way is unacceptable.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write directly to the Minister in the Department to clarify his statement. Do we write to the senior Minister?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, why not?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write to the senior Minister because this has come from the Department, not from the Minister of State's constituency office. Okay, we will move on.

On the next item on the agenda, the last day we had a discussion here about the timeliness of the accounts being presented to us and we were on the verge of sending Waterford Institute of Technology and all the organisations here home. It is a waste of the committee's time being asked to consider accounts that cover the period 2013 and 2014 - that is what we had in front of us. We will not be accepting that. I note the Comptroller and Auditor General recently completed a report on this and we will come back to that. We want to immediately send out a signal to all those bodies that it is not acceptable and there will be consequences.

The outcome of the meeting on the last occasion was we asked them to ensure they had their audited accounts for up to 2016 properly completed by the end of June to submit to the Comptroller and Auditor General for audit, and hopefully we would have that after the summer recess when we come back in September. Even at that point in time, it will be over a year after their financial statements. That is reasonable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General and committee are in the same space on this. The Comptroller and Auditor General might wish to respond.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We have been working very hard. We have 26 third level institutions. There has been a systemic problem in the sector. We have increased resources, and that was one of the things that I have highlighted in the report on the timeliness of financial statements.

We have made progress. For instance, already the Trinity College accounts for 2015-2016 have been certified so that within six months the whole process is completed. We got the financial statements and the audit was completed, the parallel audit by KPMG was completed and the whole lot done within six months. I am expecting to have the accounts from Maynooth also by the end of this month. It demonstrates that it can be done.

If the committee members want to look on the screen, there is a graphic from the report on the timeliness of financial statements that shows the universities. The white panel in the graphic is 12 months after the period of account and one can see that some of the financial statements do not come to us within 12 months. One can also see the whole process, from us receiving the accounts to the accounts being signed off. In relation to Trinity, it is done in a three-month period, and as I said, we have made progress even relative to that. We are working to bring them all forward but it will be a big ask to have the 26 of them done by September coming for the 2015-2016 period.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Our point here on the last occasion related to the specific six we had in because some of those were the serious outliers. We refer specifically to those.

What the Comptroller and Auditor General might assist us with is - it is public knowledge but not member seems to know about it - this idea that they all are doing two sets of audits. It tripped out that Galway had KPMG doing an audit and then the Comptroller and then Auditor General does a different audit on substantially the same figures but in a different reporting structure and the bottom-line figures are not the same because they are for different purposes and maybe different items are included. It bemused the public to think that there are two different sets of financial statements out there.

We need a note on this. It is utterly confusing. We spoke about consolidating accounts. Which set would be talking about? We will need the Comptroller and Auditor General's help on this. Perhaps he has it already covered.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I referred to that in the report on the timeliness issue. There are two different issues in what the Chairman raised. One is the two sets of financial statements. Effectively, that is a historical hangover. Prior to 2003, the HEA specified the universities were to produce what was called the funding statement. We raised the issue with them that this did not comprehend any subsidiaries and that it was not being done on a generally accepted accounting practice basis. In consultation with the HEA and the universities, we developed a template for them, but agreement was reached, because the HEA wanted to hang on to the funding statement, that effectively the two sets of financial statements and a reconciliation statement between the two sets of financial statements would be produced.

As well as that, the accounting systems in the universities were set up to produce the funding statement but not the consolidated financial statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that a cash basis versus accruals?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is largely, yes. Effectively, things like pensions are missing, the subsidiaries are missing and so on. My audit certificate is solely in relation to the GAAP accounting - full accrual accounting - for the universities, including all of their subsidiaries.

Separately, the colleges had traditionally hired commercial auditors to audit the draft financial statements produced by their finance units and to give a report to the governing authority and what happened was that that process was gone through, the result was given to the authority and then the authority released that set of financial statements to me for me to carry out an audit, and we were in second place in relation to it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did that include the subsidiaries? Did both audits?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It would have. They were auditing both sets of financial statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This is bizarre.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

As far as I am concerned, the only set of financial statements that should be presented to the Oireachtas is the consolidated GAAP accounting financial statements with my certificate.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does that encompass everything that needs to be encompassed?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, it does. It is a full set of-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Except the foundations.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Except the foundations. That is a separate issue.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Comptroller and Auditor General send us a note on why there are the HEA ones? Are the ones the HEA and the Department want the ones that the Comptroller and Auditor General audits or the other ones?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Technically they want both of them. In fact, the HEA has said that it does not need the funding statements to be audited now. It will accept them as presented by the college. One can understand that the HEA should have very prompt statements after the end of a period of account-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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So should we.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, absolutely. Within a month of the end of the financial period the HEA should be able to get information on the outturn. It should be able to get management accounting information and so forth.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps you will provide us with a more detailed note on it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

On the existence of the commercial auditors, we rely on their work to the extent that it is appropriate to do so. We have an arrangement with them. We go in and look at the work they have done. If it addresses the areas that interest us or that we feel are appropriate we can rely on them once we have formed a judgment. We do additional work, particularly around propriety, regularity and so forth. We do not audit the subsidiaries per se. We try to minimise the cost to the public sector.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a question on that. Obviously there are big audit houses involved. Is there anything that jumps out in that regard relating to particular audit houses? Has there been any problem and have they been of a standard with which the witness would be happy?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It would not be appropriate for me to comment on other auditors. We look at their work. We might take a different view. We may and do engage with them and discuss points. I would like to think that we arrive at a common view. We have a difference of opinion with some of the commercial auditors, particularly with regard to the accounting for pensions.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Public sector pensions.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is the area where there is a difference. However, they have raised issues, we have raised issues and we have thrashed them out. We try to be co-operative.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is a final matter on this topic before we move on to complete the rest of the correspondence. There is an item of correspondence, PAC32-R-408C, directly related to this. It concerns the financial statements for the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board, which was a serious outlier in terms of late accounts. The letter we received from it during the week states that when "setting targets for the resolution of these issues [that is its accounts] we expect to resolve the 2013-2014 financial statement issue in the middle of May 2017 and the 2015 financial statements by June 2017". It says that the support of the senior auditor of the Comptroller and Auditor General has provided templates for the remainder of the work, which will be progressing satisfactorily. We are writing back to say that we want confirmation from the board in the first week of July that it has complied with the two timetables it has given us.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Okay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It has told us that it will have its 2014 accounts finished in May and that it will have its 2015 accounts finished in June. We want to receive a letter in the first week of July confirming that it has done what it said it would do in this letter. Limerick and Clare Education and Training Board is in the same category.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The members can see the education and training boards on the screen for 2013-14.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, on a different chart.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim is at the bottom, along with Limerick and Clare. One can see the variation with others and the length of time it takes to get the audit completed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We are working with them. The period 2013-14 was particularly problematic for them because it was effectively their first set of financial statements. There is progress but we still have-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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One cannot help observing that the delays are obvious the further west one goes. I do not know who I have offended by saying that, but it is a statement of fact. The further west one goes, the slower they get.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Careful.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is what the chart shows, but I am in trouble straight away.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Donegal looks okay.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Do not mention Kerry and what it does in the football.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If I am in trouble it means somebody is listening, so that is a good thing. We will proceed with the rest of our correspondence. We had many issues to cover with the third level colleges at the last meeting.

The next item is category A correspondence for today's meeting. Nos. 410A and 411A are the briefing documents from the Department of Education and Skills and Caranua. We note and publish them.

Nos. 421A and 425A are the opening statements from the Secretary General at the Department of Education and Skills and from the chief executive officer of Caranua. We note and publish them.

Category B is correspondence from Accounting Officers. No. 405B is correspondence from the president of Dundalk Institute of Technology. We note and publish it.

No. 412B is correspondence from Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, Secretary General at the Department of Social Protection, providing a report to the committee on issues we raised when the Department's representatives were before the committee last October. We note and publish that.

No. 421B is correspondence from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General at the Department of Education and Skills, providing follow-up to our meeting on 28 March. Items covered include accounting treatment of assets transferred to school authorities, redundancy payments, youth employment initiative, DEIS, contributions from religious institutions, gender balance in higher education, public sector benchmarks and campus companies. We note and publish that. Members can consider that documentation further.

In category C correspondence, Nos. 400C(i) to (iii) is correspondence dated 27 March 2017 received from an individual regarding a response received from the Department of Education and Skills about the use of public money on behalf of an employee or board member of the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board. The correspondent highlights the difference between the stated policy and the practice in the case mentioned. For completeness, I propose that we write to the Department for an explanation. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Next is Nos. 401C(i) to (iv), which is correspondence from Deputy Thomas Broughan providing information and analysis on speeding offences and court outcomes between January 2015 and October 2016, prepared by PARC - Promoting Awareness Responsibility & Care on our Roads - Road Safety Group, on the north side of Dublin. The analysis draws attention to the percentage of cases struck out because a summons was not served. Nearly half of all cases are struck out for this reason and only about 25% of cases result in a conviction. The last committee was informed in June 2015 that a criminal justice fixed charge working group was examining this matter and that at the time a number of recommendations from the Garda Inspectorate were to be followed up. It is timely that we write to the Department of Justice and Equality for an update and observations on the analysis provided by PARC Road Safety Group. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will keep Deputy Broughan informed. He has been working on this for some time with the group concerned.

No. 408C is correspondence dated 5 April 2017 from the chief executive of Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board. We have covered that as it is about the timeliness of the accounts. We will note it.

Nos. 413C(i) and (ii) is correspondence dated 7 April 2017 from the Console liquidator company Friel Stafford regarding the situation for staff employed by Console which is now in liquidation. We also have related correspondence, which is the next item No. 424C, from the Secretary General at the Department of Health. It is on the same topic. The letter from the liquidator contains facts and information about staff who worked for Console or people who were engaged by Console who have not been paid for their work. We asked that the staff be paid. We already had a letter from the HSE saying it was not its problem and that it had no legal obligation. The letter from the liquidator states that there were 70 individuals who were referred to as staff, but 12 of them were direct employees and have been dealt with by the normal unpaid wages and redundancy payments of the Department of Social Protection. Two did not submit applications, ten did submit applications, nine have been paid and one is getting their forms in now. The 12 direct employees, therefore, are being dealt with by the State mechanism for their unpaid wages and entitlements.

The issue concerns the other 58. These individuals were not direct employees of Console but were operating on a contract basis and submitted invoices. They are listed by the liquidator as unsecured creditors. We know that means they will get nothing at the end. They might get a penny in the pound, as it were.

He gives us a detailed breakdown. He met the 58 contractors and the 12 direct employees. The 12 people have been dealt with. He said most of the 58 contractors were offered employment and had taken it up. They are now working with Pieta House. He is also saying all he can do legally is treat them as unsecured creditors. The letter from the Department is on the same topic. We had the letter from the HSE previously. It notes that contracts were offered to 52 people and that 47 took up contracts with Pieta House. It notes that the Department hopes the outcome of the liquidation process will provide recompense. That is wishful thinking. It also notes that the Department considered the matter under the appropriation account. It is sympathetic, but it can do nothing about it.

We cannot let this go. We had representatives of Console before the committee. We had the internal audit report carried out by the HSE before the committee last autumn. The committee showed grave concern about the staff and the service they provided. If we were to walk away from them at this stage, we would be shallow people. That is all I have to say. I do not know who has the legal entitlement to pay them. Everybody says they do not have it. The liquidator refers to unsecured creditors; the HSE states the matter is nothing to do with it, while the Department states it is sympathetic but can do nothing.

I propose that, in the first instance, we go back to the HSE. I am putting some of the responsibility on it because it was aware of issues in Console for a long time. It took an excessive and inordinate amount of time to produce its internal audit report. It went down to check every bunch of flowers delivered and purchased on credit cards, knowing that the organisation carrying out the internal audit was a basket case and that there would be problems down the line. Had it moved earlier to deal with the Console issue, the people in question would not be waiting for the money now. It is going to quote legal matters and there is also the question of whether we should talk to Pieta House. On that basis, the HSE is a contributory factor in the people concerned being left without money at the end of this process because it was negligent in doing its job of looking after the taxpayers' money it had given to Console. I do not know what legal mechanism we can use. Perhaps I am wrong to suggest it, but it has to use its imagination. It gives grants to all sorts of people for all sorts of thing. There is a legitimate case and it has to think outside the box in which it has been thinking.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Have the people involved received some payment? There was something about nine out of ten having received redundancy payments and holiday pay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Of the 70, 12 were direct employees on the payroll. They have all been dealt with. Of the 12, ten have submitted claims. Two might not. Perhaps they were senior people who chose not to put in a claim. Of the ten who submitted claims, nine have been paid to date and the other has money on the way. The direct employees on the payroll have been dealt with.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Therefore, they are okay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The other 58 were not on the payroll and submitted an invoice for hours worked on a monthly basis.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is desperate.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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They were contract workers and do not enjoy any of that protection. We would be shallow as individuals if we were to walk away from them.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We persisted with this issue and have finally received information which has been clarified. There were 70 people involved. To clarify, 12 of them were direct employees, while the rest were not. I agree with the Chairman in pursuing the matter. However, there are other implications for charities. The Charities Act has not been fully implemented or properly resourced. This is one example of a charity which went unregulated. The difficulties with the Health Service Executive have been outlined. It took a long time to come to any decision but when it finally did, it carried out an excellent audit. This is happening in other organisations, yet the Act has not been fully implemented or properly resourced, which is extraordinary. It was brought forward in 2009, was it not?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The charity regulators only operate in-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have no criticism of the charity regulator. I am simply pointing out that he or she is under-resourced or understaffed. We tabled parliamentary questions on the matter and this is the end result. People's lives are affected and they are not being paid. Besides any difficulty with the service, it is disingenuous of the HSE to state Pieta House did not take over Console. That is exactly what happened from the perspective of all ordinary people watching. I know that it is a new organisation, but it took over Console with the knowledge of the Health Service Executive.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What the Deputy says is right. There are broader issues. We discussed Console with the HSE. Its representatives have been before us specifically to discuss the matter. I am sure there are other cases, but we should not walk away from the one case that has been put in front of us.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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On the issue of Console, every single finding in the internal audit report that we examined carried a red flag and it was noted that there were systemic problems. There were issues the Chairman cited in terms of how long it had taken to arrive at the point where an internal audit was conducted. There was an example this week where the Cabinet signed off on an ex gratiapayment to a group of people for the right reasons in respect of pensions. There is a precedent that these things can be done. We should not always accept that things cannot be done legally. There are ways and mechanisms by which Departments can make ex gratiapayments if they consider there is justification and we can make a case. In this instance, given the tardiness, for want of a better word, of the HSE's approach to this issue and Console over a long time, the HSE has a duty and a responsibility. That is one avenue. At best, there should be some ex gratiapayment.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I think it will have to be an ex gratia payment because everybody says that, legally, they do not have to make a payment. We are in that space.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We have to accept that, but that is not to say the HSE cannot make some payment.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We need to send a copy of our short discussion to the Department of Health, the Secretary General and the HSE to ask them to reconsider the issue in the light of this discussion, acknowledging that they might not be legally responsible but asking them to think outside the box to deal with it.

While on the matter of the HSE, Deputy Catherine Connolly flagged the matter of Mr. Tony O'Brien's evidence. We have not received further notice. At our last meeting we agreed that he would send a letter to clarify the evidence given at the previous meeting. It did not clarify every issue. We are working on scheduling a date with Mr. O'Brien to come after the recess. It was agreed that members would send specific questions on his evidence on which they needed clarification.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The issues were clarified. Public procurement was an issue. The second issue was clarification on the report that he said was about to be completed on the cost for the voluntary sector.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deloitte report, as he called it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The third issue concerned the staff and clarification of how many were still working. They were the three outstanding issues for him.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I want to be precise when he next comes before the committee. I am not going to go back over the Grace matter. The commission of investigation is up and running.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Freedom of information was the other matter, but I think the Chairman dispensed with it. There were issues around the interpretation of freedom of information legislation.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will be sending the reply we will receive at the next meeting to the commission of investigation. We are not opening up the general Grace issue. It has been dealt with.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is fine.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I think the secretariat know precisely what we are looking for which we will communicate. If somebody has another specific issue that needs to be clarified about the evidence, I ask him or her to contact the secretariat, as a letter will go out early next week on the issue.

We have dealt with No. 431C(i) and (ii) on the Console issue. No. 424C is also about Console and the Department of Education and Skills. We will note and publish both items of correspondence. They follow through from previous public discussions we have had here.

No. 414C is correspondence from an individual on behalf of the Shannon Protection Alliance on the Shannon to Dublin water pipe proposal by Irish Water. The individual has stated he will be forwarding reports to the committee and wishes to make a presentation to it. I propose that we write to him, advising that, on receipt of the relevant reports, we will decide on how best to proceed. It might be for another committee rather than the Committee of Public Accounts.

No. 415C(i) and (ii) is correspondence, dated 7 April, from the Higher Education Authority which attaches a letter from Waterford Institute of Technology requesting the authority to appoint an external expert to validate the Institute's internal review of matters associated with FeedHenry, the campus company. We will note and publish the correspondence. We have already discussed it, as well as Deputy David Cullinane's correspondence and other press statements a few minutes ago.

We note and publish that. We note and publish item 417 as well. Correspondence item 416C is from Clare County Council, calling on the Committee of Public Accounts to examine the costs of the administration of justice attributable to the GoSafe contract which aims at reducing speeding. I propose that we write to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport first for a detailed note. When we receive this we will decide how to proceed.

Nos. 418C.1 and 2 are correspondence from the Welsh public accounts committee attaching a programme for a public accounts network event on 12 June. We note this. It was put forward at a previous meeting and Deputy Alan Farrell has agreed to attend on behalf of the committee, accompanied by the clerk. A travel estimate is on the screen. Flights are €175, accommodation is €135, subsistence is €99 and there are miscellaneous costs of €50. The cost per member is €459 and for the two-person delegation it is €918, which is to come out of our travel budget. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will want a brief report on the event from Deputy Farrell when he comes back.

The next item of correspondence is 419C, dated 10 April, from Deputy David Cullinane regarding the statement by the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan. We have covered that. No. 420C, dated 4 April, is from the Data Protection Commissioner to the clerk of the committee informing the committee of an investigation in respect of the forwarding by the Committee of Public Accounts of personal details of an individual in respect of an issue he raised on the granting of Aosdána grants to a particular artist. The individual's letter was forwarded so that the Arts Council could understand fully the argument the individual was making. The clerk, in preparing a response to the Data Protection Commissioner, accepted fully the oversight in not redacting the person's details and has improved the system to try to ensure this does not occur again. Is it agreed we note the correspondence? Agreed. A name was not redacted in error and the matter has now been dealt with. The committee should also note that since the commencement of the 32nd Dáil, in order to protect correspondence, we no longer identify members of the public when discussing private correspondence.

No. 423C, dated 26 March, is from an individual raising concerns about the investment of Caranua funds and a possible conflict of interest in respect of board membership. Members may note that and raise it during the meeting with Caranua later today.

That concludes a lengthy discussion on correspondence and items arising from the last meeting. The next item is No. 4 on the agenda, the statement of accounts received since the last meeting. No statements have been submitted in the last week and there is no change to the work programme at the moment. We are trying to finalise some dates in respect of Mr. Tony O'Brien from the HSE.

There being no other business, we will suspend for a moment to allow the witnesses to take their seats.