Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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As we have a quorum, we will proceed. Deputy Lisa Chambers is substituting for Deputy Darragh O'Brien and Deputy Crowe sends his apologies. On 15 December 2016, the Dáil ordered that the Revised Estimates for Public Services in respect of the following Votes be referred to this committee for consideration - Vote 35, Army Pensions and Vote 36, Defence. In the first part of today's meeting the select committee will consider these Estimates and report back to the Dáil. I welcome the Minister of State with special responsibility for defence, Deputy Paul Kehoe, and officials from the Department. I thank them for the briefing material provided. The proposed format is that we will hear opening remarks from the Minister of State before we proceed to consider the Votes. At the outset of our consideration of each of the programmes, the Minister of State may give an overview of the programme including detailing any pressures likely to impact on his Department's performance or expenditure. We will then open the meeting to the floor for questions from members.

I remind members and those in the Public Gallery that mobile phones should be switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they may cause interference, even when in silent mode, with the recording equipment. I also remind members of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I call on the Minister to make brief opening remarks on overall Department expenditure before proceeding to Votes 35 and 36.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. I welcome this opportunity to engage with the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade and Defence, to consider the 2017 Revised Estimates for Vote 35, Army Pensions and Vote 36, Defence. I have a short opening statement which will set out the overall position and update the members on some of the main developments within the defence sector over recent times. Before I conclude my opening statement, I will refer to the tragic events related to the loss of Rescue 116 off the west coast.

The defence sector is made up of two votes – Vote 35, Army Pensions and Vote 36, Defence. The high level goal of both Votes is to "provide for the military defence of the State, contribute to national and international peace and security and fulfil all other roles assigned by Government’". Accordingly, defence sector outputs are delivered under a single programme in each Vote. The combined Estimates for Defence and Army Pensions for 2017 provides for gross expenditure of some €922 million.

The Defence Vote of €692 million includes a pay and allowances allocation of some €497 million, while the remaining non-pay allocation of €195 million provides mainly for the renewal and maintenance of essential equipment, infrastructure and operational costs.

The Army pensions Vote makes provision for retired pay, pensions, allowances and gratuities payable to or in respect of former members of the Defence Forces. The 2017 Estimate provides a gross sum of €230 million for the Army pensions Vote. More than €220 million of this allocation covers expenditure on all superannuation benefits for former members of the Permanent Defence Force and their dependants. It is primarily demand-driven and non-discretionary.

Having outlined the broad financial parameters of both Votes, I will now address some of the main features of the single programme on the Defence Vote, programme A, defence policy and support, military capabilities and operational outputs.

The defence pay allocation provides for the pay and allowances of a Permanent Defence Force strength of up to 9,500, 550 civilian employees, 350 civil servants, 18 chaplains and 14 Army nurses. This level of funding provides the defence organisation with the resources necessary for it to deliver effectively on all its key domestic and international responsibilities.

An ongoing and increasing level of recruitment has been taking place within the Defence Forces in recent years. To this end, I recently launched the 2017 recruitment campaign for the Defence Forces which targets the induction of some 860 new entrants across the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service this year. Permanent Defence Force strengths are not yet at the target levels. However, funding is in place, and this year's recruitment programme highlights my commitment to a Permanent Defence Force strength of 9,500. These recruits will avail of the highest levels of training and, in return, the Defence Forces will benefit through the injection of energy and enthusiasm, which every organisation, particularly the Defence Forces, needs. Promotions are also ongoing, with over 1,400 promotions across all areas of the Defence Forces since 2014.

The budget allocation also provides for a Reserve Defence Force, RDF, pay allocation of more than €2 million which will provide for 26,000 training days in 2017. I acknowledge and appreciate the commitment and enthusiasm of the RDF members who provide voluntary service throughout the country and I welcome the fact that this allocation provides a minimum of seven days' annual paid training for all effective members of the reserve, as well as providing for 14 days' paid training for all additional personnel recruited to the reserve in 2017. In line with RDF priorities, this will also facilitate selected members to participate in career and specialist courses, as required.

The defence non-pay allocation comprises current and capital elements. The current expenditure allocation of €121 million provides mainly for expenditure on essential and ongoing Defence Forces' standing and operational costs, such as those relating to utilities, fuel, catering, maintenance, information technology and training.

The capital expenditure allocation of €74 million provides for the necessary procurement and upgrading of defensive equipment and infrastructure and represents a welcome increase of €7 million on the 2017 defence allocation contained in the capital investment programme for the period 2016 to 2021. This increase is essential to ensure that the Defence Forces have the necessary levels of equipment in place to allow them to fulfil all roles assigned to them by Government. Among the main equipment programme priorities planned for 2017 are the continuation of the naval vessel replacement programme; the armoured personnel carrier, APC, mid-life extension programme; the aircraft replacement programme; the purchase of armoured utility vehicles; and the acquisition of armoured logistic vehicles for overseas missions.

The Defence Forces built infrastructure allocation of €14 million has increased significantly over the 2016 position and will facilitate continuing infrastructural developments across military locations. A number of projects are planned for 2017, which are progressing on a phased basis, to upgrade and maintain the infrastructure essential for the Defence Forces.

Last year, in the context of the 2016 Estimates, I informed the committee that a contract had been signed with Babcock International for the provision of a fourth ship under the naval vessel replacement programme at a cost of €67 million. I am delighted to say that significant progress has been made since, and on 28 February last I attended the keel-laying ceremony at Babcock's shipbuilding yard in Devon, where I announced that the ship would bear the name of the renowned Irish playwright George Bernard Shaw. Payments of €28 million under this contract are scheduled for 2017, and by 2018 the naval vessel replacement programme will have delivered four new ships at a cost of some €266 million. The naval vessel replacement programme represents excellent value for money, and these ships will be of major benefit to the State and a further significant enhancement of defence capabilities. The acquisition of these new ships has facilitated the participation of the Naval Service in its deployment to assist with rescue missions arising from the migrant crisis in the Mediterranean. To date, these missions have led to the rescue of more than 15,600 migrants.

Last year, I commissioned the new Defence Forces International Operational Service Medal to recognise the service of Defence Forces personnel who have been deployed on overseas missions by direction of the Government where no other mission medal has been awarded. This medal was awarded to all personnel who took part in search-and-rescue activities in the Mediterranean during 2015 and 2016.

I will now briefly outline some of the key roles and outputs delivered under the defence programme. The Defence Forces continue to make a considerable contribution in their international peace and security role, and at 1 March 2017 Ireland was contributing 585 Defence Forces personnel to ten different missions across the globe. In addition, personnel are deployed to a range of international organisations and national representations.

The main overseas mission on which Defence Forces personnel are currently deployed is the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, UNIFIL, with 378 personnel. Since 22 November 2016, when Ireland assumed the lead of the joint battalion in UNIFIL from Finland, Ireland's contribution to UNIFIL has increased by some 150 personnel. Ireland is also contributing 136 personnel to the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, UNDOF, in the Golan Heights. I have already referenced the contribution made by the Naval Service in its deployment to the Mediterranean, and the issue of a further deployment in 2017 will be considered shortly.

The Department of Justice and Equality and the Garda Síochána have primary responsibility for Ireland's domestic security, supported, as required, by the Defence Forces as part of their aid to the civil power function. This role is multifaceted and in 2016 included a varied set of tasks such as Garda air support missions, Central Bank security guards, prisoner escorts, explosive ordnance disposal call-outs and Naval Service diving operations.

The Defence Forces also provide assistance to the principal response agencies tasked with responding to major emergencies. By way of example, in 2016, the Defence Forces were deployed on a number of missing persons searches, the Naval Service conducted fisheries boardings and the Air Corps undertook a number of emergency aeromedical support missions. The professional competence shown by the Defence Forces in undertaking these roles is greatly valued and appreciated by all stakeholders.

Last year was of huge historical importance and, in this context, I express my sincere gratitude to the Defence Forces for their outstanding contribution to the many ceremonial events undertaken. Their input contributed significantly to numerous ceremonial highlights throughout 2016, with the full military display involving 2,500 military personnel undertaken on Easter Sunday, rightly receiving universal acclaim for its dignified, respectful and inclusive salute to our historic past. I feel it was only right and fitting, therefore, as part of the Ireland 2016 centenary programme and in line with the programme for Government commitment, that all serving members of the Defence Forces were presented with a specially commissioned medal to mark their role in these ceremonies.

Civil Defence is also funded from the defence Vote and remains a vital component within each local authority's emergency response arrangements. During 2016, Civil Defence volunteers provided ongoing support and front-line emergency assistance at many commemorative events throughout the country. In recognition of their efforts, I commissioned a specially-designed medal to be presented to all members of Civil Defence who were in active service between 1 January 2016 and 31 December 2016.

Finally, I turn to programme A, provision for Defence Forces' pensions benefits, of Vote 35. Expenditure under Vote 35 is demand-driven and non-discretionary, with superannuation benefits - pensions and gratuities - and disability pensions, etc., accounting for 99% of all expenditure. Pension benefits granted are, for the most part, statutory entitlements once certain criteria are met.

Some 2,700 military personnel have retired on pensions from January 2010 to date and currently 12,250 pensioners are paid from the Army pensions Vote. There is a net increase of 1,250 since 2007. All the indications are that this underlying trend will be maintained in the coming years. For the years 2017 to 2019, inclusive, current projections are that 1,000 military personnel will retire on pension. Last year, 2016, saw 330 Defence Forces members retire on pension, with a similar number anticipated in 2017. As the committee is aware, it has been my stated intention to seek extra funding for military pensions as part of the overall budgetary negotiations, and some progress has been made on that front. As announced in budget 2017, the gross allocation for Army pensions has been increased by €6 million to €230 million for this year, a welcome change.

I have broadly outlined the key inputs, outputs and performance indicators for the defence sector. Committee members have been provided with briefing material on the individual subheads for the Defence and Army pensions Estimates. I look forward to positive engagement on any issues the committee may wish to discuss.

Before I conclude I want to comment on the tragic events off the west coast. I want to express my deepest condolences and sympathies to the families of Captain Dara Fitzpatrick, Chief Pilot Mark Duffy, winchman Paul Ormsby and winchman Ciarán Smith - the crew involved in this tragic incident - as well as to the staff of the Irish Coast Guard. I recognise the efforts of everyone involved in the recovery operation in a dangerous environment. In particular, I acknowledge the Defence Forces personnel who are assisting with the recovery operation through the provision of Naval Service ships and Air Corps aircraft. Naval Service divers are also contributing their skills to the rescue mission. It is important that those involved in the investigation process are given time and space to complete their work and to establish the full facts of this tragic event.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. Before we continue to discuss Vote 35 relating to pension benefits, I wish to extend the sincere sympathies of the committee to the families of those lost in the tragedy off the Mayo coast last week. People have partaken in exceptionally good work on behalf of this State. It is most regrettable that the accident took place. I hope the recovery can be advanced as quickly as possible because it is desperate and a tragedy to have to lose people. Moreover, it is tragic to have to wait for the recovery of persons. This adds immensely to the grief and hurt those families are going through. We want to extend to the members of the Coast Guard our appreciation of the outstanding work they do in exceptionally difficult circumstances.

We will proceed with the discussion on pensions. We are sticking rigidly to the programme. The first person who indicated was Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Am I to comment only on pensions?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We are taking that first. I gather you have another commitment. I will take your questions on both topics, but I am not setting a precedent for the other members.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I appreciate that. I apologise because I have to go to another meeting at 10 a.m.

I echo the Chairman's comments. The past week has been a difficult and sad time for all those involved. There is no doubt about the commitment and dedication of all those involved in the rescue. The difficulty continues for them. I acknowledge the superb role the Defence Forces played in the centenary celebrations last year. They were outstanding.

We had the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association before the committee. We sent on the submission from the association. The Minister of State referred to some of the concerns in his contribution, but will he address all the concerns raised?

My second point relates to the deployment of personnel overseas. The Minister of State provided some numbers. I was wondering about other places. Do we still have people in Afghanistan? If so, what are they doing?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will address the last question from Deputy O'Sullivan first. No members of the Irish Defence Forces are in Afghanistan at the moment.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked about the RDF. First, I recognise the value of the important work that the Reserve Defence Force has played and continues to play in contributing to Ireland's defence capability. As I have said on previous occasions, I admire the voluntary service of the members to the Defence Forces. I am the first to recognise that 2017 was not the greatest year for recruiting members to the RDF. I was listening to committee hearings recently and this was one of the major issues raised. Having said that, I reassure the Deputy that the members of the RDF play an important role. That much was stated in the White Paper published in 2015. The White Paper commits to the retention and development of the Reserve Defence Force. I acknowledge the problems around the inducting and recruitment of the reserve.

I have made this a priority during 2017. I was appointed in May 2016. There was not a great deal of change at that stage. From the time of my appointment there were issues up until the end of 2016, especially issues relating to induction. I have had conversations and meetings with the Secretary General and his assistants. I have also met the Chief of Staff and the Deputy Chief of Staff to ensure this is made a priority in 2017 and to ensure we get in the required number. There are issues around inducting personnel relating to Garda clearance and security. We are recruiting for the Permanent Defence Force and the Reserve Defence Force. As members are aware, every organisation has issues around Garda checks and security and so on. I have to ensure all safety checks and security checks have been carried out effectively on all people who have been recruited to the Reserve Defence Force. Having said that, this is a priority for me for 2017. There were issues in 2016 and I want to address them.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I would like to be associated with the vote of sympathy. I wish to offer my condolences to the crew and the families. I have seen at first hand the work of the Irish Coast Guard helicopter at Strandhill in Sligo. They were called on during the night in question as well. I have spoken to these people. It would be remiss of us not to acknowledge the work these people - the crew and staff and all those within the Irish Coast Guard - have done over the years.

We have had meetings in recent months relating to recruitment. What steps has the Minister of State taken to increase recruitment? Have all the possibilities of increasing the intake this year been explored? There was some talk that there may be no additions this year. The bottom line is the question of whether we have the funding. Is there funding to pay for all the new recruits who will be recruited during the current year?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy McLoughlin. There were no questions on pensions, by the way.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will address Deputy McLoughlin's question. He is important. We will be recruiting almost 900 new recruits to the Permanent Defence Force this year. I assure Deputy McLoughlin that all funding is in place to realise a strength of 9,500 personnel. The campaign was launched recently. Thus far, more than 5,000 people have applied for the Permanent Defence Force. That figure includes all strands.

As was outlined to the committee last year, more than 5,000 people applied for the Naval Service, the Air Corps and the Army cadetship. That will be opened up over the next number of weeks. It is my intention that we will recruit up to 900 people this year.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have any questions on pensions.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will have to keep going for the sake of precedent.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The number of pension accounts since 2013 has increased. This is probably indicative of the fact that we are losing people at an alarming rate. This has been discussed at previous meetings. I note the efforts of the Department and the RDF to increase recruitment. There are still a number of problems. It is not progressing at the rate it should be.

In terms of man-days allocated, while there are an initial seven days of paid training and up to a further 28 days of paid training for each reservist upon application by his or her unit, the lack of flexibility in those man-days is a difficulty. There may be individuals in the unit who are able to give more than 28 days. In the spirit of volunteerism, I do not see the difficulty with that. During my time in the RDF, it was a lot easier to do additional man-days if one had the ability to volunteer more of one's time, whether that was because one had lost a job, was unemployed, in college or for any other reason. At certain times during their lives, people have more time to give to the organisation and that should be welcomed. However, there is no flexibility. When a unit is assigned a certain number of man-days, it often hands back almost half of them because those that are able to give active service that year use up their man-days and they are unable to access any more. A little change like that would make a big difference. The estimated spend on the RDF for 2016 was €2.1 million. We only actually spent €1.5 million. The money is there. We are really short on bodies. It is difficult to run a training camp or a course if people cannot attend. If we provided more flexibility in respect of man-days so that those that are able to give more time are allowed to give more time and units can allocate those man-days more freely, it would go a long way towards addressing some of the problems within the individual units. That one small change would have a massive impact.

A number of years ago reservists received what was called a gratuity payment. It was not big money. In the region of €600 was paid to each reservist around Christmas time if he or she had completed his or her two weeks of annual training that year. Not every reservist would qualify. When a reservist goes on a training camp or a course for a week or two he or she is taking time out of his or her civilian employment. Therefore, his or her salary or wages are down or he or she is taking a week's holidays. Reservists' pay is then taxed quite heavily. People at the rank of sergeant or higher come out with maybe €200 after a week's training. These people pay for fuel to get to and from the location. They often purchase their own equipment. We know the difficulties in terms of personal protective equipment, PPE. A lot of reservists purchase their own boots, their own warm gear and their own wet gear. The gratuity payment at the end of the year meant reservists bore the cost of the training camp earlier in the year. Volunteering should not be so costly. It now costs people to be a member of the RDF. The gratuity payment is small money in terms of defence spending but it was a thank you payment for the effort put in by those who had done the required training and service during the year. Again, this would be a minor change for small money. It is raised time and time again by every reservist that I talk to. The State showing their appreciation for the volunteerism displayed by members of the RDF would mean a lot to them.

I join with the Minister of State, the Department, the Defence Forces and the committee in offering my deepest sympathies to the families of Dara Fitzpatrick, Mark Duffy, Paul Ormsby and Ciarán Smith. It is an absolute tragedy. I appreciate that the rescue and search efforts are still ongoing. I wholeheartedly commend the efforts of every organisation taking part in the search. It is fantastic and amazing to see the different agencies working together using their expertise and the available equipment to make the best effort we can as a State. It is important to note the efforts of locals in the Erris region. Local fishermen have been on site conducting the search efforts as best they can and local people have been providing food, warm drinks and assistance in whatever way they can. It has been an amazing community effort in that area. As a representative from County Mayo, I know it has hit the community there very hard. It will leave a lasting mark on our community.

In the briefing documents supplied, it is noted that the operational flight hours of the Air Corps in 2014 were 5,009. In 2016 they dropped to 4,286. Why have they been reduced? I doubt there is a need to reduce the hours. Is it down to a lack of resources and capabilities? In light of recent reports which confirm the inadequate resourcing of Defence Forces units, such as those involving pilots and air traffic controllers, what measures is the Department taking to resolve the manpower shortages being experienced by the Air Corps? This is not something that has been discovered in the past few weeks. The issue of resourcing and manpower shortages in the Air Corps has been known for quite some time. It must be addressed with absolute urgency.

I wish to address the issue of the health concerns of those who were in contact with hazardous material a number of years ago. Has the Minister of State had an opportunity to consider whether it might be prudent for the Department and the State to conduct a health review of those that feel they were affected and may possibly have experienced adverse health effects due to their contact with hazardous chemicals? This was done in Australia when a similar situation occurred there. An appropriate health package could be put in place for affected individuals.

I have asked the question previously, but I would like to get an update from the Minister of State and the Department as to whether the potential impact of Brexit in terms of defence policy and our Defence Forces has been analysed? What are the Department's preparations for Brexit?

I am sure the Minister of State has been contacted, as have many of us, by those involved in the Jadotville siege and their families. There is huge unhappiness and disappointment at the manner in which the issue of the service medals was dealt with. Would the Minister of State seek the establishment, under the Defence Forces regulations, of a board of military officers to review the recommendations made in the original 2004 review of the events at Jadotville? Perhaps they reached the right conclusion. It is not for me to decide or judge. I can tell the Minister of State that I have been inundated with representations on this issue. I do not see the difficulty in looking back at the decision taken in 2004 and assessing whether the right call was made. If not, we can address that. It would be in the interests of the citizens of the State, those that served during that time and their family members. There is no shame in saying that the wrong call was made. Perhaps it was not. I do not see the difficulty in looking back to see if we did the right thing.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Lisa Chambers asked about service medals and Jadotville in particular. In recognition of the mission in Jadotville and the contribution that members of the Irish Defence Forces made, I made this a priority when I came into the Department. This issue has gone on for many years and has been dealt with by many Ministers. I have asked the Chief of Staff to see what records there are relating to the battle of Jadotville in order to discover if we can recognise the soldiers' work and commitment during their mission.

Deputy Chambers will be well aware as a former member of the Reserve Defence Force of the regulations around medals and that has to be respected also. I assure the Deputy that this matter is ongoing within my own Department and within the Defence Forces. We will continue to examine whether they can be awarded some form of medal. Personally, I would not like to see just three or four people getting medals. We have to recognise all the members who made a contribution to Jadotville because they all made a huge contribution in their own way.

On Brexit, colleagues will be aware that the Prime Minister of the UK said she will trigger Article 50 shortly, although I am not sure if that will happen because of events yesterday. That is a matter for the British Government. Let me assure the Deputy that I have assigned a senior person within my Department to deal with all Brexit-related matters. This person is supported by a number of others in all branches within the Department and the Defence Forces. The managing board is also acting as a clearing house for Brexit and maintains oversight of all issues that are arising at present. I and senior officials within my Department have had a number of meetings with the Department of the Taoiseach. Once Article 50 is moved upon and the negotiations begin, we will be very much involved and will be ready.

Regarding the issues around the Air Corps, as the Deputy well knows and as I have stated on numerous occasions, there is a shortage of pilots. That is an issue I am trying to address but it cannot be addressed overnight. We have eight cadets going through at the moment and pilots coming on each year. It takes five years before a pilot is fully trained up and qualified to fly any form of aircraft. I am addressing the issue but it will take quite some time to get back to full strength. That is the reason there has been a lowering of flying hours within the Air Corps.

On the Reserve Defence Force, as I stated to Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan before she left, this a priority for me in 2017. I know Deputy Chambers asked for specifics around training days, the spending of the budget, the gratuity payment and so on. One thing I do not want to lose is the whole voluntary ethos around the Reserve Defence Force. People join for the right reasons when they join as volunteers. I do not want people to lose that special ethos. I will look at the issues the Deputy raised around the gratuity.

On the number of training days, during 2016, a total of 1,298 Reserve personnel undertook paid training days and a total of 19,710 training man days were used up. Similarly to the years 2013 to 2015, inclusive, not all of the allocation of 2016 was used up. This is reflected in an underspend of €582,000 in the Reserve budget in 2016. The Deputy raised specific issues about whether we can use up the underspend or savings. I will examine the matter. I have spoken to senior people in my Department, the Chief of Staff and the Deputy Chief of Staff about how we can improve the terms and conditions, recruitment and everything relating to the Reserve. I want to make sure this is prioritised in 2017. Even though we have a great number of people applying for the Reserve, when it comes to having the medical exams and things like that, many people fall off. I want to find out if the process is taking so long that we are losing people. I am not sure what the issues are in that regard.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I have a couple of follow-up questions. The Minister of State did not answer my question about the health review and the hazardous materials at Casement Aerodrome.

In terms of the gratuity payment, there is no fear of losing the voluntary ethos. This payment was always there. It was only taken away when the country hit crisis point and we had to save money. As somebody who has served in the Reserve, I can tell the Minister that it is quite an expensive thing to do. It costs money to be a member. People are paying for equipment and taking time off work. The gratuity payment just balanced it out. Restoring it would not affect the volunteerism. The issue is coming up all the time. No one is in the Reserve for the money - I guarantee the Minister that. It is a minor amount of money which people would only get if they did their two weeks' training. They have taken the financial hit with their two weeks' training; they have taken time off work, lost their wages and are getting taxed heavily. When I was in the Reserve in the early days, the payment used to come at the end of the training period. Then it changed and people got it at the end of the year. That did not make a huge amount of difference, and people were fine about getting it at the end of the year. It helped balance out the cost of being in the organisation.

In terms of the man days, all I am suggesting is that many days are being handed back and there are people who would take them on. I am not suggesting the Minister gives a serving member - man or woman - the ability to do six months in the Reserve Defence Force and make a career out of it. A period of 28 days is quite restrictive. If someone does a two week training course such as a career course, as a corporal or sergeant, and then wants to do the two weeks' annual training in the summer, they cannot then do the Easter or winter camp. It is just the basic weeks of training. It is difficult for any unit, particularly in rural communities, to get the numbers to turn up. People have different things going on in their lives. When we have people active and willing to give the extra time, it is very difficult to run a camp if only five people turn up and there are others sitting at home who would love to go and cannot. A bit of flexibility is needed. I ask the Minister to increase the 28 days by adding an extra two or three weeks. That is not a huge amount but it would allow units to use the man days that they have.

The Minister has asked us to give him recommendations. From my own personal experience and from talking to people in the organisation, I have given him two very practical solutions that I think would make a huge difference. The Minister could try them for a year and see the difference they make. I am trying to be helpful.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I understand what Deputy Chambers is saying about the gratuity payment. That money was actually put back into training, however. We can differ on that.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with that.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is flexibility there. I will discuss it with the officials in the Department. I take on board the importance of encouraging people to come in and recognising the contribution existing members are making.

On the health and safety issues in the Air Corps, I expect to get the independent review over the next few weeks. When I see its findings I will consider them and make recommendations accordingly. I will take cognisance of everything the independent assessor recommends to me. I know the reviewer has met the three people involved individually and I have asked him to get back to me with the assessment as soon as possible. I thought I would have had it by the end of March or early April. This is something I feel strongly about, having looked at the case and the individual complaints. I will revert to the Deputy via parliamentary questions or in committee and will inform her fully of exactly what I intend to do.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. On that note, I might make a suggestion to the Chair for when the review is back and the Minister of State has had time to consider its recommendations.

Would it be an idea then for the report to be circulated to committee members and put on the agenda for discussion with the Minister of State?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will have to examine the findings first but I will come back to the Deputy on that issue.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the RDF. A powerful presentation was made to the committee about this recently and I am sure the Minister has read the transcript. Many issues were raised but one was that if people are in receipt for a social welfare payment and do the training, the payment ceases but they are not paid for the duration of training, which is a considerable time. Losing a few weeks income when someone is on a low income is not acceptable. I pointed out that day that cheques for personnel in the Department, the Permanent Defence Force and ourselves are in our bank accounts at the end of every month. It is not acceptable that people on low incomes should have to wait a number of weeks to resume social welfare payments. That seems to be a case of bad administration within the Department if the way I took the issue up is accurate. Surely there is a way to amend that. If a person completes a week's training, there should not be a delay in his or her payment. Others members and I have outlined previously to the Minister of State the value we attach to the RDF. I instanced many young people where I come from who would have been vulnerable were it not the opportunity they were given in the Reserve to participate and play a good role in society.

Three Bills - the Red Cross Bill, the Defences Forces (forensic evidence) Bill and the Defence (amendment) Bill - seem to be going backwards every year. The current Dáil is not over-burdened with legislation at times. I presume they are relatively non-contentious Bills. Will the Minister of State indicate when he hopes to have them before both Houses?

There has been substantial expenditure on naval vessels. Have Naval Service performance targets improved following this investment? What has been the outcome of that investment?

There is provision in the Department's budget allocation this year for aircraft purchases. Due to recent events, there has been considerable coverage about inadequacy of the Air Corps. There was commentary about aircraft being in for service and repair for undue periods of time with them being out of commission instead of being available when they are called upon. Will those deficits be tackled with some urgency? Are the Defence Forces' aircraft fit for purpose? Will they not be out of commission for undue periods of time?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the RDF, 14 days notice is required for any payment. The Chairman said they were waiting for up to a month and I will examine that. The Secretary General has informed me that he is working with his military colleagues to speed up the payment process. I will follow up the issue.

I am working closely with the chairman of the Red Cross, former Minister, Pat Carey, on the Red Cross Bill. A number of specific issues have to be addressed in the legislation. I have met Red Cross officials on a number of occasions about it and they would like it to be introduced as well. I will get an update of where we stand on the other two Bills and I will come back to the Chairman on that.

In 2014, there were 1,127 patrol days; in 2015, some 1,204; and in 2016, some 1,326. With regard to fishery boardings, there were 936 in 2014; some 1,079 in 2015; and some 1,249 in 2016.

The strength of the Naval Service is 1,090. I assure the Chairman that a number of new ships that were commissioned in the past two years are participating in the rescue mission in the Mediterranean. We are getting full usage out of those ships.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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What about the Air Corps aircraft?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Air Corps operational flight hours amounted to 5,009 in 2014. They amounted to 3,894 in 2015 and 4,286 in 2016. There is a replacement for the Cessna aircraft and we are purchasing a new Pilatus aircraft as well for training purposes to replace the one that was in a training accident in 2008 or 2009. That will come on stream this year.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Naval Service on the support it has provided for those escaping wars in various parts of the world and I am delighted we took part in that programme. Is there a continuation of that requirement on us, which I would fully support? If so, how does affect fisheries protection? The exit of the UK from the Union will have an impact on fish quotas. Has preparatory work been done on that? That will be a significant issue, which could also cause us problems, particularly in the context of fisheries protection. It will be a new ball game and I assume the Department is well ahead of me on this but I would like to know what is the current position and what measures are in place to cater for these major changes.

When I was Minister for Defence, the Equitation School was one of my favourites. I am pleased that, despite attempts in the past to get it out of the way, it is still progressing. The school should be guarded with great care because on page 27, under the heading, "Main Objectives", it states: "To promote Ireland, the Irish horse and the Defence Forces through international competition." That is essential for a small country such as Ireland, particularly when the bloodstock industry is so important. The Irish horse is renowned. I hope that the school will continue to receive ongoing support and encouragement and that it will not be left short when it comes to the ongoing requirement to purchase young horses. Unfortunately, showjumpers do not last forever and the school needs to be in the marketplace. What is happening in this regard?

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State referred to the purchase of new aircraft. When will the procurement process begin? I would like a timeframe on that.

The Minister of State referred previously to a fourth new ship in terms of the Naval Service replacement programme. What progress has been made in that regard? Do we expect to have the ship in our possession this year?

Will the Minister of State consider the deployment of the Naval Service to the Mediterranean in 2017 and when will the decision be taken?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In response to the questions on Operation Pontus from both Deputies, I received the review of the 2016 mission from the Defence Forces last Friday week, before I went on my St. Patrick's Day trip to Lebanon. I have looked at the review but I have not had a chance to consider it. I am due to meet the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General of my Department next week or the following week and following that I will bring a proposal to the Cabinet shortly. Personally, I am very much in favour of continuing with the mission. As I outlined in my opening statement, a total of 15,600 migrants were rescued by the Naval Service.

My view is that we will remain involved if we are able to carry out our own operations while Operation Pontus continues. When Operation Pontus began in 2015 we had 1,204 patrol days and in 2016 when the operation continued we were able to proceed with 1,376 patrol days. A total of 1,079 fishery vessel boardings were carried out in 2015 and 1,249 in 2016. We work very closely with the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, regarding patrol days and fishery vessel boardings. Members appreciate that the fish quota system is very important to us as an island nation. We are working very closely with the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority in terms of Brexit and all issues relating to it such as fish quotas, boardings and other matters we can expect to emerge following Brexit. The SFPA is the lead agency and the Naval Service carries out whatever missions it specifies.

I fully agree with what Deputy Barrett said about the Army Equitation School. I am fully committed to it. Last year we completed a project for a new arena which cost a considerable sum. We also bought four new horses last year. The equitation school is very important to the Defence Forces and the State. I am fully committed to it, as are the Department and the Defence Forces. That will continue to be the case under my remit, and I hope it will be the case for whoever comes after me.

Deputy McLoughlin inquired about a fourth ship. I hope we will take delivery of it in mid-2018. The procurement of the Cessna replacement is progressing and I hope it will be finalised shortly. The new CASA aircraft is expected in early 2019.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Could I respectfully suggest that in light of the effect of Brexit on fisheries and fisheries protection, perhaps a quarterly or half-yearly report could be provided on the arrangements that are being put in place so that we are kept up to date and know exactly what is happening in that area? Perhaps the Minister of State would consider putting in place some sort of system whereby a report could be made to this committee on a quarterly basis to keep us up to date.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Barrett. That is an issue to which Deputy Lisa Chambers referred as well.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I asked a question of the Minister of State.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will come to that in a moment. Perhaps we should have a specific committee meeting at which the Department could brief us at official level on its preparations in regard to Brexit.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have no issue with that. The area of sea fishery protection relates more to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine than the Department of Defence because it is responsible for the policy in terms of quotas and working with the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority. We work with it as a partner and first responder in terms of enforcement and assistance with boarding ships.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is a very important part of the process.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I fully agree with Deputy Barrett. As I indicated to Deputy Lisa Chambers, there is a senior official in my Department working on all Brexit-related matters who reports directly to the Department of the Taoiseach. I and my officials have met with the Department of the Taoiseach on Brexit matters. The short-term and long-term impacts of Brexit on the domestic operation of the Defence Forces are dependent on the negotiations between the EU and the UK. The Deputy is aware that Prime Minister May will trigger Article 50 later this week but I am not sure if that will happen given the events of yesterday. I assure the Deputy that we are very much on top of the situation in terms of what is required regarding Brexit. Once the official negotiations begin both here and in Europe, my Department will be at the disposal of all those involved in the negotiations.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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In response to the issue raised by Deputy Barrett, we will arrange a specific meeting with the Minister and his officials where we can discuss all issues pertaining to Brexit as they affect the work of the Department. It is a very important issue that has been raised.

People where I come from are asking questions because, unfortunately, we will have a hard border again in this country. I hope that will not be the case but there is a fear it will happen. Deputy McLoughlin who represents two full counties and parts of two other counties along the Border will be aware of the feelings of communities in regard to the negative and adverse impacts of Brexit. It is important that we have a full meeting on the preparations the Department is making in that regard.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Irish Sea was never a real issue but protection of the stock will be a big issue with the exit of Britain from the EU because the fish in the Irish Sea do not know there is a boundary somewhere. We must prepare for those issues and make negotiators aware of them.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy and I know that fisheries and quotas were complicated enough without Brexit.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I support what the Chairman has said. It is vitally important that additional meetings would take place. The Chairman and I represent Border constituencies and it is a major concern for everybody in the Border region. It is important that members are briefed and keep abreast of what is happening with the Department of Defence and others.

I asked a question on a decision regarding the deployment of the Naval Service in the Mediterranean. Has a decision been taken?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I received a review of the 2016 mission from the Defence Forces which I am considering at the moment. I will meet the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General of the Department within the next week to week and a half. A proposal will have to be brought to Cabinet first and if such a decision is taken I will do that in the coming weeks. The 2016 mission did not deploy until early to mid-May and the decision on the 2016 mission was not taken before this point in the year.

In terms of Brexit, we must be very careful about the language we use in respect of a hard border or a soft border. The Taoiseach has outlined on a number of occasions that he does not want a border to come back into existence and that is part of the Brexit negotiations. If there is a hard border it will be a matter both for the Customs and Excise and An Garda Síochána.

It will be as an aid to the civil power where the Defence Forces will come into play if there is to be a Border. However, I am hopeful from the conversations the Taoiseach has had with Heads of State and Government across Europe, and Prime Minister May, that we will be able to avoid that situation.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That completes the select committee's consideration of the Revised Estimates for 2017 in respect of Votes 35 and 36. I thank the Minister of State and the officials dealing with the Revised Estimates for their assistance in advance of the meeting. On behalf of all members of the committee and on my own behalf, I convey again our sincere sympathy and condolences to the families of the members of the Irish Coast Guard crew lost off the coast at Erris recently. It is an awful tragedy and one which is beyond description. Members of the Defence Forces, Coast Guard and other emergency services work on behalf of us all in extremely difficult circumstances. As a committee, we record again our appreciation of the work of those services which as individuals and as a society we sometimes take for granted. As an Oireachtas committee, we record our appreciation of the work of all members of all emergency services serving our State.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The captain, who was buried recently, was the daughter of Mr. John Fitzpatrick, the returning officer for County Dublin who had Cavan connections.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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She was also a grand niece of a former Ceann Comhairle.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is correct. It is a great tragedy.