Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 23 February 2017
Public Accounts Committee
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 31 - Transport, Tourism and Sport
9:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are here to examine Vote 31 - Transport, Tourism and Sport. From the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport we are joined by Graham Doyle, Secretary General, Caoimhín Ó Ciaruáin, Dominic Mullaney, Ethna Brogan, Maev Nic Lochlainn, Mark Behan and Kathleen Morrissey, and Philip Maher from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.
I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones completely.
I wish to advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of that evidence. They are directed that only evidence concerning the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members of the committee are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 186 to the effect that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such a policy. Finally, members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I call the Comptroller and Auditor General who will make a short opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I thank the Chairman. The 2015 appropriation account for Vote 31 - Transport, Tourism and Sport received a clear audit opinion, with no material issues arising for reporting. The account records gross expenditure of €1.73 billion in 2015. Receipts into the Vote totalled €406 million, €370 million of which was accounted for by a transfer of funding from the local government fund, which the committee will be aware is substantially funded by motor taxation receipts.
The gross Vote expenditure in 2015 was spread across five expenditure programmes, as outlined in the diagram on screen. The bulk of the spend was under the Department’s land transport programme, accounting for 81% of its total expenditure. I understand that the Accounting Officer will provide more detail on the programme expenditure in his opening remarks.
Just under 85% of the Vote expenditure related to funding provided to other public bodies in the form of current and capital funding. A number of the bodies are significant grant awarding bodies in their own right. I have prepared a diagram which is on the next page of my statement - it might be put up the screen - which tries to summarise and categorise the bodies under the aegis of the Department. I will explain the diagram.
A number of the bodies the Department overseas are within my audit remit and so there are reports on the financial statements of those bodies and they come before the committee. The more substantial ones that fall into that category are Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the National Transport Authority, Fáilte Ireland and Sport Ireland. All of those are substantial grant awarding bodies in their own right.
In addition, there are other bodies under the aegis of the Department which are substantially funded by the Department for their operations or which are regulators. All of those come within my remit, for instance, the Road Safety Authority, the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, the Commission for Railway Regulation, the Commission for Aviation Regulation and the Marine Casualty Investigation Board.
Funding is also provided from the Vote to Tourism Ireland Limited. This is an all-Ireland body that was set up under the 1998 agreement which is audited by me in conjunction with my equivalent in Northern Ireland. It also receives funding in Northern Ireland.
Then there is a set of commercial State bodies under the aegis of the Department that are not audited by me - members will be familiar with that - and therefore do not directly fall within the remit of the committee either. These include the CIE Group, the harbour boards, Dublin Airport Authority, the Shannon Group and the Irish Aviation Authority. I also pointed out that there is funding from the Department to Sport Ireland and through it to national sports governing bodies and local sports clubs and so on. Again, they are not audited by me but, depending on the scale of the funding, I may have inspection rights.
Finally I draw attention in the diagram to the existence of the Irish Coast Guard, which is part of the Department. It is an agency within it. I prepared the diagram because I thought there were quite a number of bodies and it might be helpful to the committee to understand the relationship between the bodies and the Department.
On the Vote outturn for 2015, Dáil Éireann approved a Supplementary Estimate of a net €100 million for Vote 31 in November 2015. This was mainly to allow additional capital funding for investment in roads, rail and light rail networks and bus fleet. At the year end, a net €22 million remained unspent. The sum of €16.1 million in unspent capital funding was carried over to 2016 with the agreement of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. As a result, just under €6 million was liable for surrender at the end of the year.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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At this stage, I call on Mr. Graham Doyle to make his opening statement.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I have provided members with a detailed briefing on the 2015 appropriation account which is the subject of today’s hearing. My Department was not the subject of focus in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report for 2015 so the briefing the committee has describes spending programmes across the entire Vote.
In 2015, the Department’s overall gross expenditure was €1.6 billion. Our final outturn for the year, thanks to a Supplementary Estimate, was over €1.7 billion. The Department’s Vote is divided between five main expenditure programmes and the administrative budget. As Deputies will be aware, there are a large number of agencies under the Department’s aegis which we oversee in accordance with the code of practice for the corporate governance of State bodies. I thank Mr. McCarthy for the diagram, which is very helpful this morning. Much of the funding within this Vote is channelled through these State agencies and, as pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General, they are audited separately in terms of that expenditure.
In 2015, 80% of the Vote went towards the land transport programme, at almost €1.3 billion. This programme provides for spending in the area of roads and public transport. The roads programme spent almost €730 million, covering national, regional and local roads as well as PPP operational payments. The bulk of this funding is spent on the maintenance and upkeep of our road network, with some limited funding for new road developments.
Investment in the public transport infrastructure totalled almost €340 million that year, including Luas Cross City works. That project is still on target for completion of works and commencement of services this year. Funding was also provided to the National Transport Authority for PSO buses for the Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann fleets and for the continued implementation of various programmes around sustainable travel, traffic management, regional cities and accessibility grants. The public transport subhead also provides capital funding to Iarnród Éireann primarily for maintenance and renewal of the heavy rail network nationwide under the multi-annual infrastructure manager contract, IMMAC. In 2015, €209 million was committed towards public service obligation for public transport services. This was the first time since the fiscal crisis that funding was maintained rather than decreased. Subsequent budgets for 2016 and 2017 have seen the level of public service obligation funding increase substantially.
The tourism services programme, accounted for 8%, or €120 million, of the Department's Vote in 2015. This comprises the programme and administrative spend of the two tourism agencies, that is, Fáilte Ireland at €56 million and Tourism Ireland at €15 million, as well as the tourism marketing fund at €34 million and the tourism product development programme at €13 million. At the time, 2015 was a record year for visitor numbers to Ireland, with a total of 8.6 million visitors, an increase of almost 14% on 2014. These trends have continued. In 2015, a tourism policy - People, Place and Policy - was launched which set ambitious goals for the sector to 2025. The year 2015 also saw the launch of Ireland’s Ancient East, building on the success of the Wild Atlantic Way. It is clear that Brexit presents a particular challenge to the tourism sector. Over recent months, we have been working very closely with the tourism agencies and tourism stakeholders to ensure Ireland is positioned well to address these challenges.
The maritime transport and safety programme accounted for 6%, or €91 million, of the Vote in 2015. The main expenditure programme here relates to supports to the Irish Coast Guard at €76 million. In 2015, the Coast Guard responded to over 2,600 incidents and the search and rescue helicopters were tasked over 1,000 times. The year 2015 also saw significant progress in the modernisation of equipment and processes within the Coast Guard, including a new IT-based incident logging system within the three rescue co-ordination centres. This new system has greatly improved operational effectiveness and efficiency within the centres.
The sports and recreation services programme accounted for 6%, or €90 million, of the Department's Vote in 2015. The programme supported the Irish Sports Council and National Sports Campus, at €57 million. Both have since merged to form Sport Ireland. We provide funding to the sports capital programme and the swimming pools programme. During 2015, significant progress was made in the development of facilities at the National Sport Campus, including work on the development of a new high performance centre, a new multi-purpose campus conference centre. Work also commenced on the National Indoor Arena which has since been completed.
In 2015, the gross expenditure provision for the aviation programme was €26 million, or 2%, of the Vote. The largest beneficiary of the funding is the regional airports programme, at €12 million. This programme also covers costs associated with our membership of Eurocontrol and subscriptions to other international organisations. The year 2015 saw the publication of the national aviation policy following significant stakeholder consultations. A key element of the policy was the subsequent establishment of a National Aviation Development Forum which had its first annual conference last Monday.
Finally, the Department’s administrative budget, at €34 million, represents 1.7% of overall spend. It covers pay costs for the Department’s staff of around 450 in 2015 and administrative overheads such as IT, travel, utilities and accommodation services.
Over recent years, the Department has been proactive in developing new policy responses across its remit on a strong evidence basis. I have mentioned a number of these already. However, a particularly important piece of evidence-based policy was the strategic framework for investment in land transport, which we call the SFILT, that was published in August 2015. This strategic framework considered what role transport needs to play in the future development of the economy and to estimate the appropriate level of investment in the land transport system. The evidence analysis provided important inputs to the existing capital plan and it will also inform our input to the review of that plan which was announced earlier this month.
I hope that this opening statement has provided the committee with a broad overview of the expenditure areas under my remit and that it has been helpful to the committee as it examines the 2015 appropriation account.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Doyle for his opening statement. The first speaker today will be Deputy David Cullinane, followed by Deputy Catherine Murphy. The first speaker has 20 minutes and the second speaker has 15 minutes. Thereafter, we will have Deputy Catherine Connolly and Deputy Josepha Madigan, who have indicated in that order, followed by Deputy Kelly.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Doyle and his team. Mr. Doyle and I were in the same class in secondary school for a number of years.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What went wrong?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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He got the well paying job and Deputy Cullinane did not.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Something went wrong. I wish to start with the public service provision payments. Currently there is a lot of focus on what is happening in Bus Éireann and a lot of concern around the industrial relations issues, which I know Mr. Doyle cannot and will not comment on here today. However, I wish to establish the Department's role in terms of Bus Éireann. I also want to deal with the public service provision payments, which are under Mr. Doyle's Department's remit. My first question relates to the public service subvention for Bus Éireann. Does Mr. Doyle have the figures on the levels of subvention going back, say, over the past seven or eight years to hand? For example, would he have the figure for 2010 at his fingertips?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It was €45 million. What were the figures in 2011 and 2012? Does Mr. Doyle have all the figures?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There was a significant decrease from €45 million to €34 million.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What was the reason for the decrease in the subvention?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
Following the fiscal crisis, there was a significant reduction in the level of public service obligation, PSO, funding available across the network. That was reduced over the years. As a Department, we have endeavoured to try to increase that in the meantime. The decreases pretty much stopped in 2015. I think the amounts have been increased in the intervening period. In 2016-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We are dealing now with-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It was €45 million in 2010 and it was €36 million in 2015. The difference might be even greater when increased costs and inflation are factored in. My point is that there has been a significant cut in the Bus Éireann subvention since 2010. Obviously, there has been a slight increase in recent years, but there is still a substantial difference between the 2010 figure and the 2015 figure. Is that correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Are there any plans to increase the subvention to bring it back to the 2010 level, at least?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking specifically about Bus Éireann at the moment.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Doyle tell me how the subvention is calculated?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The PSO services provided by the public transport companies are under contract with the National Transport Authority, NTA, which sets the service levels and agrees each level in a contract with each of the operating companies. The subvention, as we refer to it, is essentially a payment to the public transport companies under contract for the services that are specified in the agreement.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The NTA has said in a report that it cannot legally provide extra funding to the struggling Expressway routes. Will Mr. Doyle or the other officials in the Department provide details of the legal impediments that mean this is the case? Has the Department sought advice from the European Commission or any other authority on the legal impediments that may or may not be in place to prevent the subvention from being increased?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The subvention we have been talking about relates to PSO services that are socially necessary but economically unviable. Bus Éireann operates its commercial Expressway services in the commercial market. It does not get a subsidy in relation to those services. It competes with a range of other players in the market on its Expressway routes. There are between 23 million and 24 million passengers in the commercial-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the commercial aspect of it. My question relates to the NTA's statement that it is not legally possible to provide certain funding. Has the Department sought an opinion on whether the NTA's statement is correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Given that Mr. Doyle is from Waterford, I assume he will be aware that the Expressway service from Waterford to Dublin has to make eight stops, whereas the private operators have to make just two stops on the same route. It is not necessarily a level playing field. I have mentioned just one example. There are other examples. The CIE express service cannot use the full motorway, whereas the private operators can do so. Mr. Doyle has explained that competition rules constitute a legal impediment to the provision of additional subventions, but does he not see that the absence of a level playing field for the public and private operators is a problem in that context?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is not an agreement. Bus Éireann is not allowed to offer an Expressway service that bypasses certain towns. It is very clear that the Expressway service run by CIE has to stop in these destinations.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
In the past two years, Bus Éireann has contacted the NTA to explain the issues it was encountering in seeking to operate services along the X5 and X7 routes profitably or commercially and has had the nature of those routes changed. When it pulled away from those routes, the NTA was required to step back in to provide the PSO element. It is open to Bus Éireann to cease servicing a route, or to apply for a change in its licence to stop at different locations along the way. Commercial operators can do the same thing.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Doyle have figures to break down the approximate cost of the free travel contribution per passenger and to compare that with the average fare per customer? According to the figures I have been given, the free travel contribution per passenger is approximately €4.86 on the Expressway route, whereas the average fare on the service is €11.78. Are those figures incorrect? If so, would Mr. Doyle have the correct figures?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
Before I answer the Deputy's question, I would like to point out that the free travel scheme is administered through the Department of Social Protection. I believe officials from the Department discussed this issue at yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport. When any scheme is frozen as the free travel programme was frozen in 2010, there is no doubt that it causes issues.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What does Mr. Doyle mean when he says it "causes issues"? We have just established that there has been a significant decrease in the subvention payments for public service provision since 2010. We have also heard from Mr. Doyle today that there has been a freeze in the free travel contribution. All of this tells me that Bus Éireann is facing significant challenges as it seeks to provide a service without the levels of subvention it would have received in the past. The current situation is of relevance in this context.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The company's attempt to save €30 million over the coming years is causing difficulties, as seen in the current industrial relations dispute. There is a problem here.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The funding for the free travel scheme was frozen as long ago as 2010, if I recall correctly. The funding for the scheme is approximately €80 million, approximately €65 million of which goes into the CIE group. The Department of Social Protection agrees the extent of the overall funding for the various operators that operate free travel services, including some private operators. When I said that the freezing of a scheme like this "causes issues", I suppose I meant that the demand for free travel has certainly increased in recent years in a number of cases.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It has been suggested that the number of passengers has increased by 2 million. Would that be an accurate figure?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What is the role of the Department in relation to policy? My understanding is that Bus Éireann has presented the Department with three reform plans in recent years. Why would it submit such plans to the Department? When we to try to hold the Minister to account on any of these issues, he says they are matters for the NTA or Bus Éireann but not for the Department. Policy is driven by the Department. There must be a reason that Bus Éireann presents its plans to the Department. Can Mr. Doyle confirm that Bus Éireann has submitted reform plans? What was the Department's response to the reform plans that were submitted by Bus Éireann? Am I correct in my understanding that three reform plans were submitted? How did the Department respond to each individual specific plan?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Department can comment though.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has commented on those plans. What was the response to the three plans?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The issue about the plans was that we had concerns about their commercial rationale, how they would be financed and the executability of those plans, etc. We engaged with NewERA as part of our consideration of those plans from a shareholder perspective. NewERA had the same concerns the Department had about the plans, and subsequently Bus Éireann engaged Grant Thornton to carry out a review of the business plan that existed at that point in time. Grant Thornton had broadly the same concerns that we and NewERA had.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When the Department passes comment, as it has on three reports which have been submitted, I assume those comments carry some weight. In all three reports that were submitted to the Department comment was made and concerns were raised. Those concerns obviously carry some weight.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has an influence on policy in Bus Éireann. It is not fair to say that the Department cannot impose. The Department's comments do carry weight.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Were the Department's comments taken on board? Were they accepted?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Department comment on the Expressway service?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If there were proposals to close the service were any comments made on that?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The plans the Department reviewed did not propose closure of the Expressway services. They proposed various ways of restructuring Expressway services as that was were the losses were arising in the company. There were various elements to those plans that we had a range of concerns about, and those concerns were shared by NewERA, over how the plans would be financed and executed and whether they had a chance of success.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to airports. Can the witness explain for the record of the committee what his role was before he joined the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The CEO of the airport.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did the witness sign off on reports as the CEO of the airport where he would have lobbied for or requested additional funding for that airport?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did the witness meet officials in the Department at the time to request additional funding?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did he have a view as to what was possible or not possible at that point regarding additional funding?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There is an ongoing issue in Waterford, as the witness knows. It is one example of many infrastructural capital projects where requests are being made for additional funding. One is to extend the runway at the airport because it can only cater for a certain type of aircraft. The witness would have signed off on such proposals and lobbied for funding for a runway.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The witness is now the Accounting Officer and the Secretary General who signs off on parliamentary questions, which are submitted on these issues.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The witness has some oversight on those.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The witness is aware of policy. What I am trying to establish is policy on the one hand, provision of funding to regional airports, which I will get to, and the witness's understanding of that on the other.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will refer to one of the parliamentary questions I received back regarding Waterford Airport, and similar parliamentary questions were sent back to Deputies regarding other regional airports. It says: "Development projects at the airports which are designed to expand capacity are a commercial matter for the airports themselves and are outside the scope of the programme." Is that the case, and why is that the case?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
There are a number of programmes available for funding to regional airports. They are primarily in the safety and security space. The Department will provide funding to regional airports for things that are matters of safety and security. There is no programme available which provides funding for expansionary or development activities at the airport, and the runway extension referred to by the Deputy would be considered as development.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Doyle should be clear cut and emphatic, because we need to be clear about what is possible and what is not. Is the witness being clear and emphatic in telling us that it is not possible for the Department to fund a runway extension at any airport?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is the witness saying that it is not possible to fund it?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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A change in national policy or European policy?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Could a Minister could change the policy?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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On the overall funding for regional airports, how many regional airports are there?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I was getting at. We might speak about that before we move on. A change in national policy is only part of the picture because there are European limitations. Can the witness explain what those are?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
There are a number of criteria that allow for the investment in regional airports. It tends to be more favourable regarding safety and security matters, but there are considerations of the size of airport in terms of passenger numbers and the catchment area that it operates in. There were some changes on this recently, allowing for up to 75% of funding for smaller airports, which is consistent with the 75% of funding that the Department got prior approval from the Commission to engage in in terms of its capital programme over the last number of years.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Can the witness remind us how many regional airports there are?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There are four regional airports. What was the total capital funding in 2015 and 2016 for those four airports?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Some €12 million for four regional airports seems to me to be very small money when we are talking about ensuring balanced regional development. Is the €12 million because of the limitations as to what can be spent? Is that why the capital funding is so small?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The figure of €12 million was given for four airports for 2015.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That to me seems a very small amount of money for four regional airports. The witness has already acknowledged that there are limitations in terms of national and European policy as to why we cannot invest more. The witness has acknowledged that we could change national policy. Is the Department looking at changing national policy, and if so what plans are there to change it? I understand that the European Union is looking at some reforms to ease restrictions on funding to regional airports and that the Department has made a submission.
What proposals did the Department make for changing national policy and trying to influence European policy to free up additional funding for regional airports?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
In regard to the regional airports programme, in order to provide the funding that the Department does provide, which is up to 75% of safety and security investment, the Department did a prior notification in relation to that to the Commission and got agreement for that programme, which I think was a five-year programme. The changes that are being made bring that about on a general basis, so, I suppose, the benefit to Ireland is that if we were in that same space again we would actually have to make a prior notification in relation to it. However, we are already doing what the changes at European level are-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It does not make any real material difference.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I come to my final question. I signalled to the Chairman in advance that I would raise this and I have sent a copy of the transcript to Mr. Doyle. The Department made additional funding available for regional airports, but we had a Minister in Waterford who said there was absolute resistance from departmental officials to fund Waterford Airport and went on to say that the airport would have been closed were it not for the Minister, Deputy Ross, who was sitting there. His experience was that it was a terrible job, as he described it, dealing with officials in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. Mr. Doyle has seen that transcript. I give him the opportunity to respond. It is a serious charge to make. It would concern people in Waterford and other areas if the departmental officials were offering that type of resistance to funding regional airports. I ask Mr. Doyle to comment on that.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want Mr. Doyle to comment on his specific remarks. I do not want to put him in that position. Would he disagree that there was absolute resistance from departmental officials?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I really would have to disagree with that. The Department has been hugely supportive of the airport over the last number of years. In the last decade I think approximately €20 million has been allocated to Waterford Airport under the various programmes. My own experience of dealing with the Department in regard to the airport was always very positive. While I would not want to put words in other people's mouths, I would be surprised if the airport itself would cite anything other than huge co-operation from the Department in relation to its efforts to try to bring new carriers to the airport, as it has suffered from the loss of a variety of carriers over the last couple of years.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Doyle said earlier that he was the previous CEO of Waterford Airport. Was he present at any of the meetings that took place between the Minister, local Ministers, the CEO of Waterford City and County Council and the airport board?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did he absolve himself because of his previous association or was he not requested?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I would not necessarily have been there anyway. There is an assistant secretary general who heads up the aviation side of our operation and there is a principal officer who heads the airports division of the Department. I would not necessarily have been there anyway. That said, I have said to the Minister that I will absent myself from consideration of policy, particularly in relation to Waterford Airport, but regional airports more generally. Yes, I am the Accounting Officer and I have to account to this committee for the expenditure, but I personally do not think it would be appropriate for me to do that.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Doyle.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I welcome Mr. Doyle. I wish to discuss the PSO aspect of CIE. If some of the Expressway services were relinquished and returned to PSO, is it true that the National Transport Authority would have to find money out of its current funds to cover the PSO aspect of those services if they went out to tender?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The National Transport Authority would certainly make an assessment of the public transport need if services were withdrawn in particular. It did that a couple of years ago in relation to the X5 and X7 routes. It looks at existing services to see if tweaks can be applied to existing services, be they existing PSO services, rural transport services or otherwise, to try to fill the public transport need. It will apply some of its budget to do that. On the last occasion, yes, there was a cost. I do not have it to hand. I believe it was a relatively small cost in terms of the backfill that the NTA engaged in. However, the NTA does ensure it has flexibility in its budget. While we would always like more budget for PSO services, it does ensure there is flexibility to make changes where it needs to make them.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If substantial changes needed to be made and if, for example, three, four or five routes were deemed not to be commercially viable, would it then have to make an argument to the Department for an increase in its budget so that it could cover the cost of a PSO?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
If the costs were substantial and could not be met within the budget it has, it would certainly need to make a case to bring in the services it was proposing in relation to the backfill. I am sorry to be giving the Deputy a figure of the top of my head, but in relation to the X5 and X7, my recollection is the cost was something of the order of €1.5 million. It was a relatively small cost to extend services and they were quite substantial routes.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay.
I received a reply to a parliamentary question indicating that approximately 875,000 people, 20% of the population, have a free-travel pass. What is the relationship between the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, and the Department of Social Protection in covering those? There is no obligation on the commercial providers to offer free travel to those with a free-travel pass; some do and some do not. What evaluation happens between the two Departments to ensure that people are provided with transport?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
In terms of the main body of services in the public transport network and in particularly the PSO, the €65 million that goes to CIE in relation to that is the payment that CIE gets for those services. However the demand varies in relation to that. That has been what it has been receiving for the last number of years. The Minister is on record publicly as saying that we are engaging with the Department of Social Protection at the moment in relation to the matter of free travel. We have a concern that the funding in relation to it has been frozen for a period of time and the demand has been increasing. So we are engaging with that Department at the moment in relation to the overall amount provided for free travel, which is primarily provided to the CIE group of companies, but, as the Deputy says, is also provided to some private operators.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to move on to roads which represents the bulk of the Department's expenditure. Some of that is made up from the motor taxation fund. By my reckoning about a third of that comes from what is collected in motor taxation. Just after the crash we heard that we would sweat assets. It is possible to sweat them to the point that they become liabilities. Might we, or somebody else, be here in five or ten years' time talking about the multiplier effect of not spending now, particularly on road maintenance? What are we likely to have to spend in addition to what would be required if we had a maintenance budget that was adequate?
Is there a projection for that? There is a significant shortfall.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
This is a significant concern for us as a Department. We carried out a significant piece of work which I referred to earlier on, the strategic framework for investment in land transport, SFILT. The SFILT had a few aims. A primary aim was maintaining roads. It is one thing to make a case for opening new roads but it is another to maintain them, although less glamorous. It is critically important because if the maintenance is not carried out over a period of time then the cost of restoration at some point in the future becomes very significant.
We found from that work that if we applied our total Department Vote to maintaining the land transport network, both roads and public transport, it would be about €300 million per annum shy of what would be needed to maintain what we termed the steady state. That is if we applied our entire budget to that end. The shortfall for what we believe we should be providing for the road network compared to what we are providing to maintain it is very significant. It accumulates over time as I think the Deputy was suggesting in her question. That has been a significant concern. That thinking and analysis fed into the capital plan. It was our primary point of argument for the capital plan as well as looking at key roads projects. Primarily, we would have argued very strongly to get up to maintaining our current road network.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What horizons would one be looking at to keep it at its current standard?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will we spend more because the condition becomes more expensive to remediate?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can I ask about shadow tolling on some public private partnership, PPP, roads, where an amount is paid from the roads budget if there is a shortfall in vehicle numbers? Are there projections for that reducing because of the increase in the amount of traffic?
Mr. Dominic Mullaney:
There are two main mechanisms. The first tranche of PPP roads involved toll collection points and payments. The later ones are simply availability payments. There are two distinct groups. We have never gone down the road of shadow tolling, so when companies get availability payments, it is essentially like repaying a mortgage. They go off, have to build the road, finance it and get paid back over-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could I stop Mr. Mullaney there? I am very limited in the amount of available time. I am trying to find out the amount paid for PPP roads where there was a guarantee of the amount of vehicles. Is that going to reduce? Is the Department projecting a reduction, where there is a shortfall and an amount of money is paid, by virtue of the level of traffic?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What was paid out in 2016?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The amount spent on tourism services is relatively small given the number of people employed in and the income coming from that sector. There is a very significant amount foregone from value-added tax. It is projected to be €626 million in 2016. That would not necessarily have found its way into the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, but is a risk analysis being done about Brexit, currency fluctuations and such? Is an evaluation being done about whether a different approach might need to be taken, requiring a different funding mechanism?
The €626 million foregone is not exclusively from restaurants and hotels. It is from hairdressers and magazines and a range of different things. Is there a way of disaggregating those into things that are very much tourism related and those that are peripheral to tourism?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The lower VAT rate for the industry is, in its broadest sense, dealt with in the budget at the Department of Finance level. We have supported it over the last number of years. The sector is a significant employer and has been a mainstay of the economic recovery. We have supported the VAT measures for the industry. It is probably the key support for the tourism industry, notwithstanding all of the very important work done through our agencies and the various budgets that we provide.
There are some areas, around Dublin and in other parts of the country, where we have been dealing with problems of growth due to concerns that we maintain our cost-competitiveness in the tourism industry, particularly in the light of Brexit, and about constraints in capacity in accommodation. We are keen to continue to support the industry in the context of Brexit. We are supportive of the VAT rate and we will argue to maintain it. I am sure we have some analysis on that. I do not have it to hand but I can provide more information.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The 9% VAT rate captures things that would not necessarily be tourism-related. They are part of the domestic economy. Is there a way of being more targeted?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was an underspend in the swimming pool maintenance area. There is ample evidence of swimming pools that require refurbishment and indeed of demand for new ones. Why did that underspend happen? The amount of money provided is more than the amount spent.
Relative to the amount of money that was provided, the underspend is more than the amount that was expended. Is the scheme faulty that it is not receiving applications? What analysis has the Department done on that?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
There was a very significant shortfall in the money we had available to pay out in grants under the swimming pools programme. This is a small number of projects in regard to the various swimming pools projects that were allocated funding previously. It is very much a demand-led programme so we pay out on the basis of stage payments or completion of works in regard to the projects themselves and we can only do that as we receive those funding requests. There were delays in a number of those projects. What we have done more recently is we have looked at the funding available and we put out a call for submissions in regard to other swimming pool projects that could be funded. Three of those were considered and funding was applied to two of them. That is the approach we took last year in responding to the fact that funding was not being drawn down.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In fact, the one that was not funded was in my own constituency.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When a new swimming pool is being sought, one of the issues that local authorities concern themselves with, understandably, is that the amount of matching can be quite large relative to the cost of a new build. The aim was to have one swimming pool for every 50,000 people and there are a small number of gaps nationally, and my constituency happens to be one of them.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, it was. I know the background to it. On matching funding, does that apply similarly to the scheme, that the take-up was lower than the Department had provided for?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On grants for sporting organisations, I know if we take a snapshot of one year it does not necessarily give a true picture because there can be spikes. However, there is a trend, if we look at it on a per capitabasis, where areas that would possibly not be in a position to come up with matching funds feature poorly. For instance, Westmeath was top of that and that could have been for local reasons in a given year but there are places at the bottom of it which are getting a very poor amount of funding relative to their population. Does the Department look at that scheme in terms of varying the scheme depending the wealth of an area and its ability to come up with matching funding, for example?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I am sure the Deputy will be aware that the current call for submissions in regard to that closes tomorrow. What happens is that an assessment of the projects, as they fall, is carried out and there is a rebalancing at the end in terms of spreading the funding to make sure that there is a fair crack of the whip across the country. The requirement for matching funding in that regard, which was the first part of the Deputy's question, is about 5%. It is a relatively small percentage, which I appreciate can be difficult to raise, and I know that clubs raise it in a variety of ways from particular sponsorship lump sums, from fundraising activities or whatever. It is a feature now of very many grant programmes that a certain level of matching funding is required but we keep it relatively low in the sports capital programme.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The officials are very welcome and I welcome the Comptroller and Auditor General's report of a clean audit. It is nice to be able to look at a programme which ranges from the Ancient East trail to the Wild Atlantic Way to the wild west to swimming pools to active towns and so on. There is a huge range of topics here and it is very good that the officials are here to talk about that.
I will jump back into the water on the matter of swimming pools. I have a number of questions on a number of things and then I will come back to general points about smarter travel and policy. How many swimming pools were affected by the underspend? There was €7.6 million available and €1.6 million was the spend.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Go ahead, please.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On those swimming pools, does the Department have a profile of their age, whether they will deteriorate if the funding does not go ahead and so on? Has it looked at that? I am thinking about obesity and active cities. There are excellent policies all over the place in all these documents and yet we have an underspend on swimming pools. What is the Department's proactive approach on that in dealing with local authorities?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Department invited in three more and got two, so that is one proactive thing.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the problem with tendering?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Department attributes the underspend to delays in tendering and matching funding.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I know it is local authorities. Is the Department aware of those issues? Does it sit down and talk to the local authorities to say the Department has this money, so let us use it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The question is in regard to the ones that are not taken up. Does the Department sit down proactively with the five that were raised?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The individual who works on that programme within our sports division would engage with those local authorities in regard to this. As the Deputy talks about the wider issues around this, our real objective is to see more swimming pools funded under this programme and to have the funding drawn down and that is something that will be looked at as part of the sports capital element of the review.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I would love if Mr. Doyle was able to come back to me and say that these are the five pools, these are the problems, we are working with them and we will get them sorted out. There is a danger of the pools deteriorating and not being used. Is there a time span for sorting these out?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I would and I am going to keep an eye on the five pools.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Doyle could send the committee a specific note on that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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To return to roads, which my colleague, Deputy Catherine Murphy, raised, the biggest spend in that budget is on roads and primarily the maintenance of roads, not new roads.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How does the Department decided between rural and city balance?
Mr. Dominic Mullaney:
On national roads, TII based its analysis on survey findings about the road conditions which are carried out annually. On the balance between local and national roads, the decision about which roads are put forward is made by the local authorities. The actual funding is based on per kilometre.
Essentially, it is related to the number of kilometers that each road authority has within its geographic area.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The local authorities identify the roads under their control for maintenance and put them forward to the Department.
Mr. Dominic Mullaney:
That is right. In terms of how we split it, we have three main programmes which go towards roads - restoration maintenance, which is the surface dressing programme; restoration improvement, which is rehabilitation of payments; and a discretionary grant programme. Normally, they account for maybe over 85% of our budget for regional and local roads and they are all mileage based. The only exception is that there is a factor of 1.3 applied for Kildare and Meath because of traffic volumes, and the cities have a factor of 2 applied to them. Apart from that, it is on a per kilometer basis.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Therefore, there is an even balance between the regions and the city. It is up to the local authorities to come forward to say what their programmes are and what needs to be repaired and the funding is there.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How does the Department ensure fair balance? That is the question I started off with.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Mullaney for that clarification.
I have a specific question on the tolls. How much was paid in respect of the PPP operational payments as compensation for toll income being less than anticipated? This was touched on and the Department did not have the figure. I am asking for the figure again. What was paid over?
Mr. Mullaney made a comment that the traffic is now increasing and he would expect it to be less as there are more tolls being paid. That is of concern to me. Considering smarter travel, the Department is utterly reliant on the increase in traffic. Can Mr. Mullaney explain the system to me and explain what was paid? Then I will come back to the general point.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I called the figures compensation. Traffic guarantee payments is what they were called, is it?
Mr. Dominic Mullaney:
Yes. There are actually three different types of contract. In the first, the contractor carries all the risk regarding traffic. That was the original batch of PPPs. The one we have now is simply availability payments and the contractor is not carrying any risk in relation to what traffic uses the road. Then there were two schemes which were part of the first batch but were too large to have the normal arrangement so that one would not get contractors to carry the risk. Those two, because of their size, were subject to this traffic guarantee payment and the risk was split between TII and the-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There were three systems. In the first one, the contractor bears all the risk.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In the second one, the State bears the risk.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is shared risk.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What of the third one?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Therefore, we have a nimble system where the State is reliant on an increase in traffic on our roads.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Could we have details of those three schemes and the payments made in compensation, or whatever wording the Department is using, sent to the Chairman and to us? I started off using the word "compensation". Could we have those, please?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have a specific question in relation to taxis. It arises from a representation I received but it is also general point as well and it relates to the decal symbol that one is obliged to display on a taxi. Taxi drivers seem to be obliged to display these 24 hours a day. According to the representations I have received, it has serious implications for their insurance. Could the Department clarify that for me? Why can they not remove it or use a magnetic system where that could come off when they are using the taxi for family purposes?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is that issue and the issue of whether the representation on the taxi committee is fair. I will come back separately on the latter issue.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Great.
With all of these lovely documents, I could paper my room. I was elected first elected a public representative in 1999. I cannot tell Mr. Doyle how many public transport documents I have seen in my 17 years. Smarter Travel Galway is, I would say without exaggeration, the 15th document for Galway alone. We have massive congestion on our roads at peak times. Galway, in particular, is a medieval city and it has massive traffic on its roads at peak times only and an unsustainable reliance on cars. I am not blaming the cars. We have put nothing in place, despite all of these documents.
I have here another lovely framework. I could not but praise the Government on Towards a National Planning Framework. I am actually praising the Government on this matter. The document states the framework will address matters, including "Promotion of sustainable settlement and transportation strategies in urban and rural areas including measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address the necessity of adaptation to climate change". It sounds wonderful. The reality is far from wonderful, despite all these lovely documents. In fact, for Galway city, there is an N6 project - another road. This is under the Department's watch, where we have one window of opportunity in regard to climate change. This is the last Dáil that will come up with meaningful action on climate change. Otherwise, it is too late. That is what all of the non-governmental organisations are telling us. Yet the solution in Galway is a road. All the public transport elements have been tagged onto it. In fact, only yesterday the news was that they have now delayed the public consultation period for the N6 project because of the massive volumes of submissions. I predict that the vast amount of those submissions state: "Please, do not go ahead with a road, please, go public transport and please, go light rail." That is my longest question and I ask Mr. Doyle to comment on it.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
In regard to Galway, I will not go into the various things of which I am aware and which have been done in recent times, including bike schemes, reorganisation of some of the bus network in Galway and a 12% increase in bus use in Galway in the last couple of years. These are positives but Galway needs better solutions.
I take the Deputy's comments on strategies. To specifically address the Deputy's comment that a big part of the solution is a road, Galway, of the cities around the country, is the one city that really has not had a relief road, bypass or something that takes cars out of the centre. There are very few people who I encounter who are more adamant about public transport versus roads than the people on the National Transport Authority. My understanding is that they are supportive of the concept of a road in this case because it allows for greater public transport use through the city.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Doyle is correct. That is what they tell us. I have a completely different point of view. It is based on 17 years of going down a cul de sac in regard to an outer bypass with millions of euro spent on it. Then we go forward with a road. It is not an outer bypass; it is a ring-road. The public transport elements are tagged on to it. There is no paradigm shift here on the part of the Department and certainly on the part of the officials in Galway, on the reality that we cannot go on building roads. In regard to the road, the evidence is that more than 90% of the cars want to go into the city because that is where the industry, the university, the GMIT, the hospitals, etc., are. We need public transport.
The Department needs to examine its policies in regard to reducing emissions in the context of climate change and to develop a policy around reducing the volume of traffic on our roads in that context also. The Department has a responsibility to do that. Even if the road was the solution it cannot be built in the near future. An increase in school transport provision for the pupils of the 30 to 35 schools in this 2 km zone would reduce the volume of traffic on this road. I am sure the response to that proposal will be that school transport is a matter for another Department. However, it is one solution.
We must insist on public mobility plans in every industry and institution. The bicycle scheme mentioned is very limited. I am a cyclist. The scheme is tourism rather than commuter based. While it is welcome, it is limited in terms of what it can achieve. The philosophy appears to be one of add on public transport but keep going the road.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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While the Deputy has made a good point that issue is more relevant to the transport committee.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputy Cullinane mentioned that funding for the free travel scheme was frozen in 2010. The witnesses mentioned that the current cost of the scheme is €80 million, €75 million of which goes to the CIE group. Is that correct?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I would be very concerned if, as the Deputy said, we ended up in a space where public transport was an add-on in terms of our overall policy. Public transport must be central in all that we do. Leaving aside all of the issues around climate change and so on, the level of commuting is expected to increase significantly over the next number of years. As there is not sufficient road space to cope with this, the only way we can handle it is through increased public transport provision. For that reason, public transport is central in all that we do.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I appreciate that but that has not happened. It was mentioned that only 8% of people in Galway use the bus service. People in Galway do not use the buses because the service is not frequent enough. There have been many proposals for a light rail system. I read an article in one of today's newspapers in which Mr. Conor Faughnan calls for a light rail system. A group of us in Galway have continually called for such a service as the most sustainable way forward in terms of the current road infrastructure. I would welcome further engagement with Mr. Doyle on the issue of sustainable transport but I will settle at this point for a response to the other questions I posed.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The budget of the Department of Social protection in relation to the scheme, which as stated has been frozen over the last number of years, is approximately €81 million, €65 million of which goes directly into the CIE group, €8 million goes into Luas and other elements of it are paid to private operators and the rural transport programmes. That is how that budget is spent.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Following on from this meeting the committee will correspond directly with the Department of Social Protection in relation to a breakdown of spend on the free travel scheme.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The point I was making is that it is because that funding has remained frozen that CIE is an impossible position.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Doyle and his officials for their responses thus far.
I would like to return to the swimming pool issue mentioned by other Deputies and the Department's oversight of swimming pools. The current Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, has been very vocal about Glenalbyn swimming pool, which is in his constituency. It also happens to be in my constituency. This pool was closed in December 2013 and in-filled in December 2016. What is the role of the Minister and the Department with regard to swimming pools? I am sure this is not the only swimming pool alluded to today. This is not a desirable situation. It is, in fact, an extremely upsetting and distressing situation for the local communities concerned. Perhaps Mr. Doyle would provide some feedback on this issue.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I possibly did not make it clear earlier that in regard to the draw down of funding under the swimming pools programme the speed of draw down does not result in the funding being lost. The funding is carried forward. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred earlier to the carry forward of capital in our Vote. Funding carried forward under the swimming pools programme would form part of that. As I said, funding in regard to the particular swimming pools mentioned is not lost rather it is carried forward if there is a delay.
In regard to swimming pools in general, I accept the comments made. As a Department, we are very supportive of swimming pools contributing to our overall objectives in terms of participation in sport and physical activity. This will be taken into consideration in the context of capital funding provision under the sports programme over the next number of years, the review of the capital plan and in terms of the sports policy on which work is currently under way.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am interested in hearing what the Department can do in regard to the particular swimming pool I mentioned.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
We provide funding in respect of which we seek interest. We assess that interest and provide the limited funding we have available to the various projects that make applications for it. The number of projects that have sought funding is not huge. The promotion of projects and funding for them is made to us through the local authorities.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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As far as I am aware, the funding is available for Glenalbyn swimming pool. I understand that €10 million has been put aside with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. What I am asking is if it is within the Minister's remit or that of the Department to intervene at this stage, four years after the closure of the pool and nothing having happened in that regard since. Is it within the power of the Department or the Minister to do that?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate an update on the position in regard to that swimming pool. It is an issue on which the Minister has been very vocal. I would like to know if he or the Department could intervene to expedite the re-opening of that pool.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Mr. Doyle would send a detailed information note on that topic to the committee.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I would be grateful if Mr. Doyle could do that.
In regard to the traffic problems experienced this morning following on from storm Doris, particularly in the city centre, what contingency planning takes place in the Department in terms of data collection and research in regard to weather issues? The city centre, in terms of traffic, comes to a stand-still on a rainy day never mind during stormy weather. What work is undertaken by the Department in terms of projecting assistance in that situation? As a result of stormy weather, there were lengthy delays on the DART and Luas services this morning and traffic congestion was very bad. It is not acceptable that this is allowed to occur in our capital city. More funding should be directed towards research programmes to address this issue. Are there programmes of this type in place?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I am not aware of a particular programme in regard to weather but in general we are extremely concerned about congestion and the manner in which it has returned over recent years and in terms of its potential to increase. The NTA operates various models in regard to traffic congestion. For example, we know that an additional 5% increase in traffic on our roads leads to a significant increase in the level of congestion on our roads. Our objective in terms of being a facilitator for transport and economic activity that helps to energise the economy, is to avoid that. We want avoid congestion in a general sense or of the type that occurred today which causes a drag on the economy. It is the case that weather on a given day can impact on congestion unless people are prepared to travel by bicycle in windy conditions and so on. We see an exaggerated sense of a congestion problem on a day like to day. There is no doubt about that.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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An underground system in Dublin is desirable to prevent bad weather affecting traffic. Metro North was agreed by Cabinet in 2015, is to commence in 2021 and will finish in 2026-2027. Why is there a delay? Is it solely a funding issue? Traffic in cities across Ireland, and particularly in Dublin, leads to the prospect of a dismal, bleak future and an underground is the answer.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General report stated that there was an underspend and that €6 million was liable for surrender at the end of the year. Is the delay just a funding issue?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am asking why it is not being actively pursued.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is not starting until 2021.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It was agreed in 2015.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Doyle hopeful that it will alleviate some of the pressures we are experiencing at the moment?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
It would certainly alleviate pressures in the corridor to which the Deputy refers. The cost-benefit analysis suggests the project will make a significant difference. It is not just about the airport - the corridor itself will be affected and there is expected to be significant population growth in coming years.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is there a way to expedite it?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
Ways of further prioritising the project were looked at during the review of the capital plan but the reports we have received, along with our own work on the matter, suggest there is quite limited scope for bringing it forward. I do not say it could not be brought forward a little but the variety of planning works and consultations that are required, in what is a statutory process, means there is limited scope.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I know an awful lot of work is involved but it should be prioritised because it would help alleviate a lot of problems we have at the moment.
There was a €200 million underspend relating to delays in progressing the active towns programme, which comes under the smarter travel and carbon reduction budget. What is the nature and purpose of that programme and what has caused the delays in implementing it?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The programme provides better scope for walking and cycling and involves demonstration projects which encourage more sustainable methods of travel such as walking, cycling and public transport. There has been some improvement and the statistics for the Dublin cordon, published the other day, show that two thirds of people coming to the city in the mornings now use sustainable methods. The other third comprises vehicular traffic. The smarter travel programme involves making small interventions, for example to improve cycling facilities, and there is also a demonstration element to the work. We look at the impact of small investments in certain targeted areas to bring about a change in behaviour, which is the main objective.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What was the reason for the delay?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Can the Department not put pressure on them?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Where is the accountability for the delay?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
We can only pay funding under the procedures and on the basis of matured liabilities for things carried out on properties submitted to us. If people are not in a position to draw down funding as quickly as our profiling assumes, we generally carry it forward so that it is not lost. There is a timing difference in these cases but it is our objective to pay it out.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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There was €62 million in 2015 for the helicopter service. The committee has learned that expenditure of €389.8 million represents nearly 6.5 years in future commitments. Can Mr. Doyle provide us with particulars of this contract? Was it put in place as a result of a competitive process? What is the duration of the contract? Are there any fixed charges?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
It is a ten-year contract. It was advertised in 2010 and is the Department's most significant contract. It is a contract to provide the search and rescue helicopter service at four bases in Ireland and was signed in 2013. There may be a potential to extend it on a year-by-year basis for up to three years. There was a review of search and rescue and the new contract provides for significantly updated and more capable helicopters. We previously used S-61 helicopters with 30 year old airframes but they were replaced with the S-91 helicopter.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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When were they phased in?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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They provide a vital service. Was the contract the result of a competitive process?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Are we getting value for money for the service?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Are there fixed charges?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I must declare I was a junior Minister in this Department for three years and know all the individuals in front of us.
I have five questions. The first few will be handy enough. We will then get into the meaty stuff.
The estimated provision for salaries was €28 million, but I continually hear from people who work there that the Air Accident Investigation Unit, AAIU, and the Coast Guard are understrength and under-resourced. Could the witnesses allay my fears or are there issues in those bodies or elsewhere? How does this €28 million figure correlate with the outturn?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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They provide an incredible service.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I will answer the question at a general level. The Department radically reduced its number of employees under the employment control framework. That has posed a challenge to how we operate. In that sense, it is disappointing to see that we did not manage to spend our entire pay budget. Not that it is a target, but the reason is-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is usually the other way around and Departments struggle to stay within the budget.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, I would not.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Two years in a row.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are many of the jobs specialised?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The two bodies that I hear a great deal about are the AAIU and the Coast Guard.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What are the others?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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To find people?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Coast Guard is under-resourced. That is a fact. I have no doubt that Mr. Doyle wants to fill the vacancies, but what is the process for doing that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is being addressed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Exchequer receipt from Bus Éireann for school transport in 2015 was €250,000. What did this entail? It is on page 24.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is No. 7.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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For what is that receipt?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Mr. Doyle might revert to me. From an accountancy point of view, it jumped out at me that €250,000 came back. That is good.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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When I was going through it, it stood out as intriguing.
My second declaration is that I used to work for Fáilte Ireland, to which my next two questions relate. The estimated provision is €56 million, but the outturn was €55 million in 2015 and €61 million in 2014. That is a substantial decrease. Is it too easy to say that this was because The Gathering was over? What is the reason for the €5 million or €6 million of a drop in spend, given how important tourism is?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
Specific projects were funded. One was in the order of €9 million, I understand. There was The Gathering, but there was also work on tourism products that were specific to 2014. That funding was removed for 2015. Excluding that bit, there might have been a small increase in the rest of the programme.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I can understand that The Gathering was a factor, but what was the other project?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Which has been a great success and I congratulate Fáilte Ireland in that regard. The same applies to Ireland’s Ancient East. Is there a plan for the bit in the middle called the lakelands?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does Mr. Doyle hope that the figure will increase to €61 million? Tourism is an important spend for our economy.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I hope that we can increase funding to these important programmes, particularly as we look to potential challenges for the tourism industry. Many of the arrows have been pointing in the right direction for the industry in recent years, but that was never going to last forever. Issues such as Brexit create the potential for challenge. The industry has been successful. It needs to be because it plays a critical role in employment in the economy, so we are anxious to support it as best as possible.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My next question is on how vacancies are filled by the range of organisations within the Department’s remit. It must be one of the largest Departments in terms of its number of agencies, etc.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is publicly known that I was critical of Fáilte Ireland for not using the Public Appointments Service, PAS, to fill its chief executive role and instead wasted €58,000 of taxpayers’ money by using private firms. Why did that happen and is there a departmental policy not to use the PAS? Please do not tell me that it is down to each agency to decide. Surely the Department can issue a policy to the effect that it believes in and supports the PAS and that the PAS will be used for the filling of all major vacancies. First, why did that not happen at Fáilte Ireland? This is not a political point, as I have done the political thing with the Minister, Deputy Ross. Second, would it not be a good policy and show faith in the previous Government’s decision on public appointments?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why did Fáilte Ireland not use it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know that, but if the Secretary General spoke to any of the chairpersons of the various agencies, of which there are loads, and told them that he expected them to do this, I am sure that they would.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does Mr. Doyle agree with that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does Mr. Doyle support the use of the PAS?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is okay. Does Mr. Doyle believe that all the Department's agencies should use the PAS?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That was not my question. My question is whether Mr. Doyle believes that all the Department's agencies should use the PAS?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am asking for Mr. Doyle's opinion as Secretary General of the Department. It has responsibility for all of these agencies. Does Mr. Doyle believe that all the Department's agencies should use the PAS? It is a "Yes" or "No" answer. There will be no follow up if Mr. Doyle says one or the other.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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So Mr. Doyle does not believe it should be mandatory for them to use the PAS?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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If Mr. Doyle gave me a "Yes" or "No" answer, I would have moved on but the fact that he has said that it is up to the agencies is an endorsement of the fact that they wasted €58,500 of taxpayer's money on something that could have been done as well through a public appointments system that is in place for all these organisations and the Department.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I understand what Mr. Doyle is getting at but I would expect that Departments would let their agencies know that it would be expected that they would not waste taxpayers' money by hiring private firms to take an inordinate amount of time to fill a vacancy because it has confidence in the system that is already there to fill vacancies, which is the PAS.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is some waste of €58,000.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My final question is fairly substantial. When did someone within the Department first discover that in the context of the deal done with Norwegian Airlines to fly into Ireland, which is being announced as we speak and which is welcome in a broad sense, the majority of the flights would be in and out of Dublin? This has been going on for 15 months. There was a good announcement for Cork today but the fact is that it was hung off the concept that the flights would be in and out of Cork. In fact, for 15 months, all we heard about was Cork. I understand that what has been announced today is that there will be 12 flights for Dublin, six flights for Belfast, four flights for Shannon and three flights for Cork. As far as I am concerned, this is a Trojan horse. I welcome the fact that they are coming into this country and the fact that we will have our first ever transatlantic flights out of Cork as opposed to the other airports. There are no flights for Knock which supported this, which raises other questions. When did the Department first know that there would be flights out of Dublin?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Could Mr. Doyle let me know when someone within the Department first found out? I would appreciate it if he could also provide me with correspondence - e-mails or letters - between the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, and the Department about this matter over the past 15 months? There might not be much material but I would appreciate it if we could receive it. The DAA, which is an agency under the remit of the Department, sold a project that was then supported for bringing transatlantic flights to Cork. What we have today is an announcement that is effectively part of an agenda to bring a third terminal to Dublin. Coincidentally, the Minister announced a few days ago that a study into a third terminal would take place. What we have here is a strangulation of the other airports. After today, I have no confidence in the board of the DAA. By using Cork as a Trojan horse, the DAA has effectively pushed up passenger numbers for Dublin. I welcome the fact that Norwegian Airlines is being brought in but the way this was done needs to be investigated. We need to get to the bottom of what was really going on here. If you look at projections for all other airports in this country, from 2012 to now, Dublin has gone from 81% to 86% of all passengers while all other airports have gone down. Mr. Doyle has a very good knowledge of this area. I want to find out how long this was going on. As far as I am concerned, there was a DAA agenda and I want to know whether or not the Department was complicit in this. I take Mr. Doyle's bona fides. He told me that he only found out a couple of weeks ago. I want to know who in the Department first knew about this.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I welcome Norwegian Airlines coming in. The issue for me is very simple. The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government is driving down to Cork today to welcome this. I welcome the fact that there will be three flights into one destination and not into Boston or New York, as was said. I believe they are going to Providence. This was sold as a game changer and it is a positive move for Cork. However, it was sold as being about Cork. I want to know if the DAA was always looking at Cork or whether there was underlying agenda in order to get it into Dublin. By coincidence, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has just announced his review regarding a third terminal at Dublin. This needs to be worked out.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask for a very detailed and comprehensive note to be sent to the committee.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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All the correspondence, please.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will start with a matter to which nearly every speaker has referred, namely, Expressway services. Being a rural Deputy, I am aware of the importance of such services. I come from Kilkenny. Expressway services are important for connectivity in rural Ireland. We have PSO lines, many of which go to Dublin. The format for Expressway should be changed. I am speaking about the south east. I accept a bus starting in Waterford, stopping in Kilkenny and Carlow and going straight to Dublin is an express bus but, as Deputy Cullinane said, I do not accept a bus that starts in Waterford and stops in Ballyhale, Mullinavat, Paulstown and Gowran, which are all little towns in Kilkenny, and connects up the whole way is an express bus. This involves nine stops. That is not an express bus. That is a different criterion and the sooner the NTA or the Minister - whoever is in charge of this - changes the statement that it is an express bus, the better. It is not an express bus. I can understand an express bus involving getting on in one place, having two stops and then heading on to Dublin. The reason I am saying this is because of the PSO. My understanding is that under the law, we cannot subsidise an Expressway route but if the criteria were changed, it could be looked at. Due to the ongoing negotiations and the possible breakdown of the talks between Bus Éireann and the unions, I fear that we will lose services in rural Ireland. The Minister needs to meet the parties. I know the matter has nothing to do with the Department.
The Minister must get these people around the table. He must get in representatives of the National Transport Authority, the unions and Bus Éireann and sit around the table with them. The free travel is another issue. It has been frozen since 2010. Figures were mentioned and that can be looked at. At least half the money could be got from those and the unions and Bus Éireann could work out the other problems they have. Can the witness influence this so that connectivity can be kept in rural Ireland in order to keep it alive? The Government is talking about keeping rural Ireland alive but unless people have services every day to go to colleges, the airport or shopping, we will see more isolation, particularly with older people.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
On the structure, a number of years ago when this was being set up, there were what were seen as public service obligation, PSO, services that were socially necessary but economically unviable. They were dealt with through what is called a direct award contract. The package of services within that is open to the National Transport Authority, NTA, to contract with the operator, or Bus Éireann in the case of many of its services. It provides funding or subsidy to enable those services to operate. The services mentioned by the Deputy as going through a number of towns - which they do in many cases - were presented by Bus Éireann as commercial services. At the time they were profitable and would not have received subvention. I explained to Deputy Cullinane earlier that the National Transport Authority licences those services. It does not require Bus Éireann to make the stops that it does and it is open to Bus Éireann to seek revision of those licence conditions in terms of where a bus stops and taking into account where other operators stop.
If Bus Éireann decides to do that, to the extent that those services were covering a public service or a need for a public service, it is open to the NTA to bring about a solution that prevents people who need those public services from being denied them. It does that in a number of ways. It can extend existing PSO services in some instances to backfill the service. It can make changes in some of the rural transport programme to provide the services or it can tender services. Bus Éireann or somebody else could apply for those. That is how it would be dealt with.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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All those services were in place when the old road structure was there. They were the national primary routes. When the motorway was built, they were not changed. We opened the services to private contractors but they are taking the cream. They are not under obligation to go to the small villages and towns off the motorway that are in need of services. We need to change the criteria fast and if we do not, we will lose the services. In fairness, Bus Éireann is still giving a service on many routes but it will lose €9 million this year. That cannot continue.
Can private operators take this cream and go away? Should there not be an obligation on them to provide some kind of service to rural areas? If there is not, the public service obligation should be given to Bus Éireann or whatever private operator can provide the existing services. They need subsistence to keep the services in place and they are not viable on their own.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The services from private operators were introduced but it is not a free-for-all and a completely open competitive market. It is regulated competition, with the National Transport Authority being the regulator. One must apply for a licence and get it or an altered version if one is prepared to accept it. The NTA has refused more licences in this regard than it has accepted over recent years. There are large chunks of the public who want to travel on direct services. At this point the market has grown to the extent that there are approximately 23 million passenger journeys on commercial services, of which Bus Éireann at this point accounts for approximately 30%. The market has grown very significantly and we see many more people travelling on public transport as a result of that measure. If this results in a position where Bus Éireann can no longer serve towns that must be served, there is a mechanism that can be used. In fairness to the National Transport Authority, it has been at pains in recent times - as recently as yesterday in a committee room here - to point out that it has the power to step in if Bus Éireann pulls away and a public service need must be met.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It has been done in some areas already.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that is not working. Old people are being put in minibuses, etc. I am talking about existing services, with buses of 45 or 50 seats, that go to Dublin. The luxury buses are being taken away and a substandard services would be substituted. That will not work. Rural Ireland deserves its whack too from the PSO. Much of it goes to Dublin, although I know there are 1.2 million people here and they need public services. We in rural Ireland need public services too and it is a matter of balancing the issue. That must be done. We cannot have some kind of substandard service that people will not use because of timescales and buses not being up to scratch. I attended a presentation last week relating to this and I have been told a substandard service has been substituted and it is nothing like what was there before. It is not working. I want to hold what we have with a proper service.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I understand that entirely. The Department is very anxious to serve the transport needs of citizens throughout the country. I can give the Deputy a rough figure as it is while since we have run the calculation but my understanding is that we spend approximately 80% of our overall budget outside the greater Dublin area, depending on how that is cut. We are very anxious to provide services throughout the country.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to regional airports, which have been touched on. I am being very parochial in mentioning Waterford regional airport again. There are four regional airports getting subsistence of €12 million. Is that correct? There are probably eight or nine regional airports in total in Ireland. What criteria was used to give subsistence to four regional airports and why was Waterford not included?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Where are they?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
They are Waterford, Kerry, Knock and Donegal. With Kerry and Donegal there is a PSO air service, with a subsidy in that instance paid to airlines to operate a route, essentially, between those airports and Dublin. In other cases, all airports can apply for funding. At this point there are approximately four funding streams and what they really amount to is an ability for the Department to assist an airport in funding its safety and security activities. Last year, Waterford Airport was the biggest recipient of funding under that programme, getting just over €1 million.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What was that for?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If a carrier in the morning wanted to a put in a service between Waterford and Dublin, would it be entitled to a PSO subsidy?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is the issue of the capital spending for the runway extension, which is vital to the future of Waterford Airport. The witness knows it as he spent long enough down there. Could it come from central funding?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I acknowledge the Deputy joined us but I am very anxious to point out that because of my role previously, I try not to or do not get involved in this particular area of policy. I am the Accounting Officer and have to respond to questions in respect of the Vote. The policy position that has been in place for some time is that funding pots that exist are to provide funding for safety and security expenditure but not for developmental expenditure or what is regarded as commercially expanding a business.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They would not be entitled to any funding towards the extension.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I just want to move on to TII. Everything seems to be local. How far advanced is the New Ross bypass? What is the completion date?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there plans to have a motorway or dual carriageway between the New Ross bypass, when it is finished, and the Waterford bypass? Will it be left as a two-way system?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I ask is because between the two bypasses, there will be a small bit left in the middle of only about 8 km that is a two-way system. Will it be safe, particularly for tourists and foreign travellers? They would be going from one extreme to another and then going back again.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is small.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask about the west-east link. There is always talk about crisscrossing links when the motorways are finished. On the route from Galway to Waterford, one would be talking about Limerick to Waterford. Are there plans in the pipeline for that?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the bypassing of Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Tipperary town and all the towns along the line.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Reference was made to the subsidy, vehicle numbers and PPPs. If the vehicles exceed a certain volume, is there any payback to the Exchequer? If it is under a certain number, there is an obligation on the Exchequer to pay the partnerships. If the traffic exceeds a certain volume, is there any payback to the Exchequer?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I want to refer to local roads. Since the downturn in 2008, there has been a big shortfall in local authority funding. Roads are funded partly by the authority itself and then by grants from central funding. Are there plans to increase the funding because roads are falling behind? I have seen reports stating they are falling behind by four or five years and that we will have a big problem if we do not start to increase funding.
Vehicle taxes in general are all going into the Exchequer. Is all the money from vehicle tax around the country spent on roads or was some syphoned off to Irish Water and such bodies? What is the division in places such as Leitrim, which would not have a high number of vehicles by comparison with the likes of Kilkenny? What way is it divided up?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If not, where does it go?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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One hundred per cent of vehicle tax comes back-----
Mr. Graham Doyle:
There is a variety of taxes and revenues associated with the transport system that are significant and they all come back into the Exchequer in terms of how it distributes money around the system, whether it is for health, social protection or, indeed, transport. There is a link between the local government fund and the expenditure on regional and local roads. We are very anxious to increase the expenditure on regional and local roads in terms of exactly what the Deputy describes. If we end up in a situation in which roads are under-maintained over a period, then the costs of correcting them become much more significant later on. We do not want to store up that problem.
In trying to answer Deputy Catherine Murphy's questions earlier on, I spoke about a significant analysis we had done that has informed our input into measures such as the capital plan, for example, whereby we quantified the underexpenditure in relation to what it cost to maintain what we call the steady state, or what it costs to maintain what we have, whatever about investing in new stuff. What it costs to maintain what we have is significant because once one builds it, one must maintain it.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What percentage of the taxation revenue from vehicles is given back to the local authorities? Is it 50%, 60%, or 80%? County Kilkenny gives in so much from all vehicle registrations and taxes. What percentage of that money actually comes back to Kilkenny for spending on local, regional and county roads? Could Mr. Doyle give me a percentage?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I cannot off the top of my head but there is a link to the local government fund in terms of the funding we then get to put into regional and local roads. Therefore, a proportion of the funding comes through. The funding comes into the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and we get our share of that. We get a proportion of that.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has any of the money been going to Irish Water?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe some kind of global figure could be provided. The industry is forever telling us the amount of money collected in transport taxes, be it from the sale of new cars, excise duties on fuel or motor car tax. What is the overall picture and overall expenditure? We know some of it gets absorbed in general taxation. The water thing goes into the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Department pays it off to Irish Water. It does not go through the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to Irish Water. The Society of the Irish Motor Industry and such bodies are forever producing reports-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know the property tax was to be for different reasons and a lot of the revenue from it was syphoned off for Irish Water to keep it alive.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The representatives from the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government will be in next week.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking whether any moneys are going to Irish Water from the witnesses' Department?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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No. There are from another Department.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I know that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Not the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. It only gets a share of the motor tax. As big a share goes straight to Irish Water from the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government. Representatives from the latter Department will be here in the next week or so. We will put the question to them on the day. The Society of the Irish Motor Industry is always producing figures.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We have to move on
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Let me refer to two small schemes, one being for private lanes. They are only local schemes. One is the community involvement in road works scheme, CIR scheme, and I cannot think of the other one. Has the Department a say in these? I have gone to the Minister several times to have them reintroduced. The percentage of CIR scheme funding allocated in Kilkenny is up to the council itself. The other scheme, for private lanes, was once EU-funded. Again, it involved a public private partnership. Has the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport a say in its being brought back? I have written to the Minister several times to ask whether he would bring it back. It was a great small scheme.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The money to maintain the roads is in place.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on. It is a matter for the Minister.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have a number of short questions about some of the subheads. The main one, which was touched on earlier by Deputy Connolly, relates to the environmental element of some of the programmes. An additional sum of €74 million was allocated in respect of and spent on heavy rail in 2015. At what point does Mr. Doyle think the Department and its agencies will start to seriously consider expenditure to electrify the entire network? That also includes the heavy rail carriages and locomotives. I appreciate that there is a national policy element to the question but it is within the strategy of the Government and previous Governments to do that. What sort of spend on a year-on-year basis has been invested in electrification and is there a significant programme of work to be undertaken before the roll-out of such an option for the national rail network?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The spend on rail is a very significant element of our overall public transport spend. In an overall sense, between PSOs and capital investment in rail, it takes up approximately 60% of expenditure on public transport. The electrification of services can be very beneficial as one can run more train paths and it is a nicer and, quite often, better service for people to access. We talked earlier about the DART underground project, but for that to work it is not just the tunnel itself, it is the wider electrification and that is what brings the benefits. What we are trying to pursue in terms of priorities around electrification includes starting the works in Balbriggan under the spend in the capital plan.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that the figures relate to 2015 and that there was only a month between November 2015 and the end of the financial year. What sort of spend has been invested in that? I know the project was on the cards previously.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I do not know how much of the planning in respect of that would have appeared in 2015. Possibly, there was nothing in 2015. In terms of the Balbriggan project, the spend will be of the order of €180 million. It is of that magnitude. We are also looking at Maynooth and Hazelhatch. Maynooth is very far north of that figure as well.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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That is a substantially longer line.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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How many years will it take to remove the diesel network? Presumably, we will be in a position where we will have to buy new locomotives, as opposed to switching to different models. Clearly, the network is not there. At what point do we say we need to stop buying engines and start putting up electrical cables?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
We have a very extensive rail network in the country given the spread of population. Rail works best when one is dealing with travel from one high population centre to another and spreading the fixed costs, which are very heavy. Deputy Farrell does not need me to tell him that. I do not have an answer for the cost of doing it but I suspect it is in the billions. Realistically, what we would have to do in terms of expenditure of the efforts and financial resources that we make out under capital plans is that we have to look at what the priorities are. It is clear to us that the key priorities are the projects I have mentioned, one of which is certainly in under the existing capital plan and we will be pushing for others.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I will posit a view, which does not need Mr. Doyle's response, that there will come a point - if we have not already reached it - where further investment in the network will cost more in the long term than going down the electrical route due to fuel and other costs. I accept Mr. Doyle's point regarding the capital plan. I am a firm supporter of it. Clearly, my constituents would be great beneficiaries of it for a number of reasons – metro north, the airport and the DART extension to Balbriggan - but that is not the sole reason for my raising the issue this morning. In fact, the primary reason is from an environmental perspective but also from the public expenditure side.
My other question relates to metro north. We heard figures mentioned in the context of the investment by previous Governments on the architectural work involving technical drawings that is done prior to a project starting.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Doyle should forgive my lack of knowledge. I am not aware of the terminology. The spend on the previous project to get it to a certain point on paper has been estimated at approximately €180 million. We have been told on a number of occasions that the vast majority of the product of that investment is being reused in the new metro north. Could Mr. Doyle comment on that?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
Some of the work that was done previously will have a value in terms of that project. A lot of the work was done a number of years ago. The DART expansion programme, as we prefer to call it, rather than the DART underground project, based on what we see already, has a positive cost-benefit analysis. We believe that it has the potential to make significant changes in public transport in Dublin. We are very supportive of the project but it is a megaproject in the context of Ireland's economy. It is of a magnitude that it just was not possible to consider in the timeframe of the existing capital plan but for us it is a project that we will be pushing strongly at the centre to try to bring about. Work was done a number of years ago on the project in very different economic times. It is the expectation that some of that work can be re-used and, unfortunately, some of it will not be.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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The original project was estimated at a particular cost to the Exchequer at a particular moment in time. The new proposal is coming in significantly cheaper than that but one of the main concerns for a certain cohort of my constituents and beyond on the north side of Dublin is the capacity issue for the metro and its linkages with the existing network. In terms of the planning and development of metro north and its integration with other transport services within the greater Dublin area the capacity should be front and centre in any consideration of platform length, tunnel capacity, access and egress to those underground stations and other such measures. It is all well and good to talk about the savings to the Exchequer, which is part of the reason the Committee of Public Accounts exists, but it is also important to recognise that if we do not build in capacity, at a future point we would end up spending vast sums later in the process on extra carriages but also in terms of ancillary exits and access points for emergency purposes and for general access to stations. That would be in no one's interests.
It is a long question, probably with a short answer.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
It is a very well-made point. There is no doubt that we must future proof these projects. Work is happening on the Luas cross-city project to extend platforms to provide for longer trams to increase capacity. That capacity is needed in those tramlines. This is very important. The original design of the tunnel for the DART underground was of a particular time and it was where the project was being engineered at that time. Without falling into any of the traps the Deputy has rightly pointed out, we must redesign it in a way that allows us to find an optimal project that delivers the benefit to public transport we think it can deliver without over-engineering it at the same time.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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With the knock-on effects of implications for the Department's expenditure envelope and for the capital plan, in the savings of the envisaged new project and the old project, am I right in saying that figure is in the region of €1 billion?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I meant the metro north project.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I am sorry. We are talking about metro again. I am reluctant to give figures around the cost of metro north because ultimately it will be the subject of a very significant procurement process. We will be seeking to get the absolutely best value for money that we can in that regard.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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On the issue of the greater Dublin area, GDA, and future planning, have there been any studies on future planning for outer orbital transport for the city or county of Dublin, either auditing wise or on other expenditures? As a former councillor since 2004, not unlike my colleague Deputy Connolly, although not for as many years as she, I am aware of the spatial strategies of two or three governments. Is that level of planning still present within the Department, and is the growth of the GDA over the next 20 to 50 years under active consideration along with the infrastructure that would be required? Have these been costed or is there actual expenditure on it?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
The planning in relation to how the GDA will develop and how it will be served by public transport is all part of the GDA strategy. The National Transport Authority has published that strategy and it ultimately had the consent of the Minister at the time. The NTA is now working on an implementation plan and it will have to be presented. I am not entirely sure of the timeframe but I believe it is going to be relatively shortly.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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To Mr. Doyle's knowledge, is that going to be out for public consumption any time soon?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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It would be important to get a fix on that.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Doyle. I have two very quick queries, Chairman, and I appreciate the leniency in my time. I want to ask about a current and active project relating to sports capital, which Deputies and Senators are always happy to talk about it. I note the underspend in this area and I appreciate it is specific to Sport Ireland and the campus. I assume the moneys will be spent and it is just a matter of the procurement and delivery. It probably happened in 2016. It did, yes.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I saw the photographs.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I observe that there were too many men in that photograph.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that it was not under Mr. Doyle's control. Although on a matter completely unrelated to this committee, it was perhaps timely of Warren Deutrom of Cricket Ireland to send me an e-mail at 9 a.m. today. He lives across the street from the area he talks about, one which will involve the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in the near future, and I hope it will also involve the Minister and Ministers of State. In the context of developing other sports and in looking at strategies for the likes of National Sports Campus Development Authority and the potential investment across the range of services provided by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Department must not just be about sport and transport but must also look at the tourism potential of sport.
For example, 600 million people in India watched a match that was televised in Malahide a couple of years ago. These are markets we are simply unaware of. This sport is considered a minority sport in Ireland and yet it has incredible reach. Cricket in Ireland is about to go up a level in the league structure, which offers incredible potential to Ireland to put its foot in the door of the super league of cricket internationally. Despite this, we do not have a national stadium or arena for the development of the sport. Cricket Ireland has quadrupled its membership in four years. We are talking about an explosion in support, and not just in the north of Dublin. It is also happening elsewhere. There is an active cricket club in each of the 32 counties in the island of Ireland. This should be considered by the Department. I appreciate the Chairman's leeway to me, but I believe the Department should consider this in terms of future planning whenever the policy decision might arise. I wanted to take the opportunity to address that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's point is substantially well made. The first round of speakers have put their questions. We will have some supplementary questions shortly, but I first want to ask about local sports grants. Perhaps the witnesses can give the committee a breakdown county by county of grants, between public bodies and the voluntary community sporting organisations. There was a time they would all go to public bodies but now an increasing amount of a county's allocation seems to be going to local authorities to enable them to do work, which is also good. I would appreciate the breakdown, however, county by county.
The Department might also supply the committee with a breakdown of the funding for the Olympic Council of Ireland for 2014 to 2017, inclusive. Will the witnesses indicate the Department's satisfaction with spending by the Olympic Council of Ireland given the funds provided to it by the Department? Please start with the figures.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is a figure in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report for the national sports governing bodies, including the GAA, the IRFU and the FAI. Is the Olympic Council of Ireland part of that funding?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What of the funding for the Olympic Council of Ireland?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
I can give the figures that the Olympic Council of Ireland has received through Sport Ireland, but Sport Ireland accounts for that through its accounting officer. It was in the order of €400,000 in 2013, €380,000 and an additional €72,000 in 2014, €353,000 in 2015 and €520,000 in 2016. In that cycle it amounted to just over €1.7 million.
I think there was an additional €72,000 in 2014 as well. It was €353,000 in 2015 and €520,000 in 2016, so in that particular cycle it would have amounted to just over €1.7 million.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Doyle, as the Accounting Officer who transferred that funding to Sport Ireland, satisfied that it all went to budget?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
As regards my role as Accounting Officer for the funding we provide to Sport Ireland and our governance arrangements with the latter, we know they have a programme in place to audit the various national governing bodies, NGBs, that receive funding on a cyclical basis. They have an auditing regime for that, including an external big four firm to carry out that work. The governance of the funding they provide to those NGBs is a matter for themselves.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a service level agreement, SLA, between the Department and Sport Ireland regarding how the latter disburses its funds? Sport Ireland must have a service level agreement with the various bodies it funds.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The question is very simple.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Sport Ireland gets funding of over €17 million per annum from the Department. As Accounting Officer, will he indicate if there was a service level agreement with that organisation in respect of the years we are examining, namely, 2015 or 2016?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I find it alarming that a body to which the Department pays approximately €17 million can come before the committee but that nobody can say whether a service level agreement exists. Can any of Mr. Doyle's colleagues answer that? I would hate to think there is an answer in the system and it is just not getting out. I want to be fair to Mr. Doyle and give him an opportunity.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
My understanding is that Sport Ireland was established as an amalgamation of two other bodies and there would have been an arrangement with the prior bodies. Now that Sport Ireland has been established, we require a new overarching SLA with it and that is what is being agreed at the moment.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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So the answer is "Yes", there is a service level agreement with the appropriate body.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is the answer I was hoping for.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I have one final point concerning fixed-charge notices, penalty points, national vehicle and driver files and separate databases for drivers. There is a proposal for a new master licensing record, a third system to incorporate the other two. Can Mr. Doyle tell me about the system in place to ensure that penalty points and charges issued through his Department attach themselves to drivers and are followed up? What specifically happens in a court situation? We are now talking about a new system whereby new cars will not be registered unless the driver's details are supplied. I am reading from page 29 of the Department's 2015 annual report. These things were announced 18 months ago. Have any of them happened?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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A simple question - what is the loss to the Exchequer of the penalty points, fixed-charge notices or charges that may arise in a court not being followed up to the drivers directly?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
At that point, when one goes to court, one receives a higher level of penalty points at that juncture. This work is about ensuring that those penalty points delivered at that point in time are put on a licence, so we do not have people out there who should have received penalty points on their licences who are not getting them. That is what we have been trying to bring about by working with the courts system through the master licence record project.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When will that master licence record system be fully operational?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This is disturbing because Mr. Doyle comes in with his 2015 annual report, which refers to this project, yet here we are in 2017 and he says it could take two years. That is not a satisfactory arrangement in terms of road safety issues. I have to start at the beginning because Mr. Doyle has told me that he has not solved this problem at all. The problem today is as acute as it was before he looked at it a few years ago, and it has not yet been sorted. I mentioned a lot of different databases in the system that do not talk to each other and that is still the case. For the benefit of the public, can Mr. Doyle explain fixed charge notices versus penalty points? A driver gets penalty points, but there are also get fixed-charge notices and these are separate from penalty points. Are they on-the-spot fines? Can Mr. Doyle explain who gets what?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
If a driver is issued with penalty points by a garda and pays the fine and takes the penalty points, that works its way quite straightforwardly into the system and those penalty points are applied to the driver's licence. We have extensive databases around the national vehicle and driver file. The concern about this is that there are a number of parties involved. We have gardaí issuing fixed-charge notices, ourselves processing, and then the courts.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will come back to that but bear with me. We will park the fixed-charge notices - they are the fines - for a moment. Let us just talk about the penalty pints. If one pays, it is on the system. Can Mr. Doyle explain what then happens in court when a person has contested it and they receive additional penalty points? Is Mr. Doyle telling me that system has been knocked down?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What system does Mr. Doyle have in place to ensure he gets that information? He said, "If the courts happen to send this, we might get it", but what system is in place to ensure the court does that and the Department can record them?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a system in place?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What is the notification method and how often do they exchange this information?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It does not work.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Doyle have a memorandum of understanding with the courts service?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We know what the Department would like to achieve. Does it have a memorandum of understanding in place as we speak on this?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is only one Courts Service. I certainly hope the Department is not dealing with courts individually.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
My point is that penalty points are being levied within individual courts around the system. There has been an increased level of co-operation in this regard and it is all in the interests of road safety in terms of trying to ensure there are fewer opportunities for drivers to somehow find a way of not having the points applied.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We all share that objective but is that happening? How many penalty points levied in court ended in notices? The report indicates there were 490,000 penalty point notices issued during 2015. How many notices of penalty points were levied in the courts between 2014 and 2016 and have been put on people's driver licences? Do those figures exist?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Right. They will be sent to us.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department is a long way back from having this cracked. Mr. Doyle has said it is two years away but it was mentioned in the 2015 annual report. Is it the Courts Service or the Department that is dragging its feet?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Who is in charge of making this happen? Is it the Department?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Who is the chairman of the project team?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What level is the Department's person who is chairing that project team?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We require the minutes or records of the meetings of that project team and how it has progressed since 2015. It was referenced in the 2015 account. Mr. Doyle tells me today that it is two years away but he has not convinced me that anything substantial has happened in the mean time. He told me there is a project team and although I am sure the principal officer is an outstanding individual, it might a greater concentration of effort. We want to know the membership of the project team and whether it includes personnel from the Courts Service, the Department, the Road Safety Authority and the Garda Síochána. We need a report on the operation of that group. I will leave the point at that so as to give others the opportunity to contribute. When we receive the information we may have further questions by way of correspondence.
As we are on our second round of questions, I ask people to be conscious of the time.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There will be a vote in the Dáil in 20 minutes so we will be as brief as possible.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will be finished by then.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will surprise the Secretary General for the second time in a row as his Department will come in for some praise. The greenway projects have been first class. Is it correct to say the funding comes from the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Will the witness outline to the committee how many outstanding claims for additional funds exist for greenway projects and where they are?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What were the names of the projects or the local authorities involved?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Would they have sought a particular amount? Did the local a authorities submit proposals?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Some additional funding was sought from some of those local authorities where decisions have not been made. I am asking about outstanding claims. My understanding-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is why I am asking. I was informed at a meeting of Oireachtas Members in Waterford by the chief executive officer of the local authority that a request has been submitted for additional funding. Has that submission been made and what is the amount?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In principle, is there support for finishing projects? I would imagine if the Department has funded existing greenway projects but additional funding is necessary to make them viable, it would be open to providing additional support. I am not seeking to tie our hands but in principle, is the Department open to providing such additional support?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Has the witness met representatives of local authorities?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister met officials from local authorities in the past couple of weeks with regard to seeking additional funding for greenway projects?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The witness might revert to us about that. I wish to deal again with subvention and the Expressway service. I want absolute clarity so I can fully understand the responses given earlier. Has the Department done any analysis of the viability of the overall Expressway service or individual routes?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine the witness would accept the Department has a massive role to play in "balanced regional development", which has become a cliché. Does the witness accept that if we are to achieve any sort of balanced regional development, transport is very important?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does it not strike Mr. Doyle as incredible that the Department is not doing an analysis of transport services that exist, even if they are Bus Éireann services, to see if they are economically viable or socially necessary? The witness indicated the public service obligation, PSO, gives subvention to services when there is a social need but they are economically unviable. If the Department has not done the analysis, has Bus Éireann presented any analysis of the Expressway service in terms of viability?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the commercial differences. The Department has not done the analysis on viability or social needs met by the Expressway services. I am asking if the Department has received any reports from Bus Éireann as to the viability or not of the services.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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So they are not viable.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will get to the commercial services part. The witness has accepted they are not viable at the moment.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I can take it that losing money means not viable.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That brings me to what I mentioned earlier, which is that some of these Expressway routes stop in eight or nine locations where private operators might stop once or twice. The witness mentioned that Bus Éireann presents these routes as commercial services, as it does and which is a matter for the company. He also mentioned that the routes are licensed by the National Transport Authority. Is that right?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is open to Bus Éireann to apply for a change in the terms of the licence so it does not have to make the same number of stops.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Doyle know whether Bus Éireann has made any requests to that effect in respect of any of these routes?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking about the routes that were altered. I am asking about loss-making routes that have potential problems. Has Bus Éireann sought a change in the licence from the NTA in any of those instances, only for that request not to be granted?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Dáil will be voting in ten minutes and I want to bring in two more Deputies. This particular question-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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These questions are important.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write directly to the NTA, which is the licensing authority, to get the exact answer. It is a separate body. It can answer this question. I ask Deputy Cullinane to give way because I want to bring in two more Deputies before the scheduled vote in the Dáil.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write directly to the NTA to get an answer to this question rather than getting another body to do that for us. I ask Deputy Murphy to be brief because there is a vote in ten minutes.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When we were given the figures for the sports grants, I assessed them against the population to see how they compare. I accept that this is a crude way of doing it. What factors are these figures measured against? New communities that consist of nothing more than a collection of houses will not have the same ability to deliver as communities that are able to add to what is already there. When these figures are being drawn up, is the level of need analysed or measured, or are these decisions made purely on the basis of who comes forward to make an application? The cities seem to do quite poorly when these grants are allocated. When the figures are set out on a per capita basis, Dublin, Cork and Limerick are all at the lower end of the scale. A similar point can be made about some counties that have had recent growth. Although Dublin definitely benefits when funds are given to national bodies like the Irish Amateur Boxing Association, the benefits of that expenditure are felt more widely. It strikes me that such allocations should be catalogued separately, at least in part, in the interests of fair play in the distribution of these moneys. What are these allocations matched against? How is the level of need captured?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
There is keen interest around the country in the allocation of sports capital grants under a scheme that has been around for a long time. We are careful to have clear criteria when we are assessing applications under that programme. When we make a call for applications, we set out a range of principles and criteria that will be considered. Essentially, marks are assigned to those factors when applications are being assessed. I understand that the Minister and the Minister of State intend to publish detailed criteria in this regard tomorrow. They will explain that the assessment will be carried out in line with what was set out in the requests for expressions. Consideration is given to a range of criteria including participation levels, the involvement of disadvantaged groups and the numbers that may benefit from the sports facility in question.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am asking about those who do not come forward. Is there an analysis of what should be there but is not there? What needs are not being met by the scheme as it currently operates? I can look at those questions separately.
My second question relates to our climate obligations. We will have to pay hard cash if we do not meet certain targets. Given that transport is one of the three big areas that have an impact on climate, is it likely that the failure to meet these targets will have a direct impact on the Department's budget? Has an analysis of that been done? Has consideration been given to how this would be handled?
Mr. Graham Doyle:
These targets apply at a national level rather than at a sectoral level. If Ireland fails to meet its targets and ends up having to pay fines, those fines will not be levied on the transport sector or any other individual sector. They will be levied at central level and that is where such payments will be made. The Deputy is correct when she suggests that the challenge in the transport sector is very significant, especially as we try to service increased levels of economic activity. Transport accounts for approximately one third of emissions. Approximately 60% of emissions in the transport space come from private cars, 20% of such emissions come from the freight and haulage industry, and a range of other factors, including public transport, account for the other 20%. The private car accounts for a big chunk-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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People use private cars because of a lack of options.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
Car journeys are a feature of the spread of population throughout the country. There needs to be a technological solution to that. Ireland is very much a taker of technology. We do not build cars. Along with our colleagues in the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, who are responsible for promoting the use of electric vehicles, in particular, we are very keen to ensure technology is a significant part of our solution, especially in light of how our population is spread out.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Doyle.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I would like to make a comment before I ask a specific question and a general question. Mr. Doyle has said that the NTA has the power to step in if Bus Éireann pulls out of a commercial route because it is not viable.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That seems to me like something out of Kafka. It seems that when Bus Éireann is obliged to pull out of a route because it is not viable, the NTA waits for it to pull out before setting terms for private operators to move in.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It really seems straight out of Kafka. At the same time, we are talking about getting more people to use public transport. That is a comment.
My specific question relates to Fáilte Ireland, which does great work. I do not mean to be parochial when I mention a premises in Galway that has been empty for a long time. The building in question is in a prime spot in Salthill. The loss of revenue associated with the non-use of this premises is probably an expense. I do not know. Does Mr. Doyle know whether Fáilte Ireland or any of the other agencies under the remit of the Department have similar buildings that are empty?
I also have a general question. I got a bit carried away when I asked at length about the wonderful smarter travel document, which covers the period from 2009 to 2020. One of the 41 actions that are to be carried out under the document involves the introduction of a sustainable plan. When I asked yesterday about what has happened to the sustainable plan, I was told it was decided not to go ahead with it. Was the smarter travel document reviewed? How many of the actions were implemented? When did the review take place? What did we learn from it about where we are going? Everyone here believes in public transport. We know we have to do something about climate change. Was this wonderful document implemented? If not, why not? Was it reviewed? If not, why not? What have we learned from it? As I said earlier, the most recent estimate of the cost of a 16.5 km road that is planned in Galway was €500 million, or over €30 million per kilometre. It seems that the estimated price of the road has now increased to €600 million and nothing has yet been done. How can such a price be justified? I remind the committee that the road will affect two thirds of an 18 ha parcel of residential zoned land that was bought by the city council at a time when prices were at their prime. One part of this parcel will be the subject of a future meeting of this committee. The development of two thirds of an 18 ha parcel of land has been frozen because of a proposed ring road that is contrary to every one of the policies on my table, which themselves represent a small proportion of our policies on sustainable transport. I ask Mr. Doyle to respond to my comment, my specific question and my general question about the need for sense to prevail in Galway.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Lovely.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There are 39 actions in the document.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes, that is it.
Mr. Graham Doyle:
-----the sustainable transport document.
That particular document was prepared in 2009 against an expectation of funding over the lifetime of it of the order of over €4 billion, perhaps as much as €4.5 billion, which obviously did not happen in the context of the fiscal crisis. The key point in response to the Deputy's question is we do not have a view that sustainable transport is something that should exist separately from what we do in transport. It has to be mainstreamed into what we do in transport. That has to guide principles. For example, as Luas cross-city works are being done, significant consideration has to be given on that project to how cyclists can co-exist with the trams. We should not be considering smart ticketing or any of the other issues that are critically important in terms of getting people out of their cars on to public transport separately. It is something we should be absolutely mainstreaming.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There are 49 actions laid out in this plan from 2009 to 2020. How many of those actions have been implemented? I know one has not been implemented because I took the trouble of checking yesterday. We were to bring in new legislation and a sustainable plan. I forget the exact title of it. The answer given yesterday is the same one given by Mr. Doyle, namely, that there was no need for an Act because it is part of all Departments' remit. I will not waste time. I am disappointed by that because we need overarching legislation.
Of all these action plans, how many were implemented? Was there a review carried out of this plan? If there was, when? What have we learned?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When and how will it be reviewed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is very difficult to have faith. I do not mean in Mr. Doyle personally, whom I welcome here today. We are going down a cul-de-sac and we are under extraordinary pressure with climate change and sustainable development. I started by referring to all of the plans but we do not need any more plans. We need implementation of what is on the ground. We need reviews. It should have been done. We are more than half way through this plan so there should have been a review of what we have learned and where we are going.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will conclude at this point. We have concluded our discussion. On behalf of the Committee of Public Accounts, I thank all our witnesses from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for being here today. The witnesses will make note and supply the information that we specifically asked to be sent to us. We look forward to receiving it.
Will the committee agree to dispose of Vote 31? Agreed.