Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Daly wishes to make a proposal with regard to the consular service.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I move:

In respect of the recent review of consular and honorary consular services and the importance that appointments are based on reliable information, this committee:agrees that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Secretary General of the Department and the Head of the Consular section come before the committee regarding the method in which consuls and honorary consuls are appointed;

is concerned over the lack of data available regarding the location of the Irish community living overseas including their specific location;

and calls for members to be supplied with up to date information to ensure the service is fit for purpose and in locations where the Irish community are living.

This motion calls on the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the head of the consular system within the Department to come before this committee prior to the publication of the review of consular and honorary consular services. I am concerned about the lack of data because any policy should be based on data. We should be given information about the service so that we can ensure it is fit for purpose.

As members will be aware, we have asked for information on where Irish people are living around the world. We know there are 70 million people in the Irish diaspora, including 40 million in the US and 6 million in Canada. Those headline figures are reported over and over again. This committee wrote to the consular service to ask for data on where the Irish diaspora is located. When I say we want information, I do not mean we should be told there are 6 million people of Irish descent in Canada.

I mean how many are in each province, for example how many people in Montana are of Irish descent? I understand and this probably has not changed, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade does not have the breakdown of the figures. How can one establish honorary consulates unless one has the data? Government policy is based on data, for example the number of schools and classrooms is based on the number of pupils in the area. I do not think it is acceptable that the Government does not know the states where people of Irish descent live in the United States. I could tell the committee that in Alabama's first district of the US Congress that 12.3% of people have Irish ancestry, that is 85,045 in Alabama have Irish ancestry. If one goes to Montana, which is served by the consulate in San Francisco and what cover 13 states and a representative may get to Montana once every three years.

The message we are sending to our communities in the United States is that we like them around St. Patrick's Day, but outside of that we are not going to give them any resources.

Let us compare what we are doing in America to what we did in Canada, the then ambassador, Dr. Ray Bassett, who was there until recently, appointed honorary consulates to virtually every province. We have more honorary consulates in Canada, where there are only 6 million people of Irish heritage compared to the United States where we have 40 million people of Irish descent. This is the result of an ambassador taking an initiative.

I know there are concerns about it. I maintain that policy is based on data. It is shocking that the reply from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to this committee after numerous requests, is that they simply do not have the data. If one went on the census website for England, one would be able to get data on the number of people with Irish ancestry in Birmingham.

If the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is to have a consulate policy, for a start the Department must have the data.

I would like to hear the views of the committee members on this. I think the reply from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is unacceptable.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Senator Daly raises an important issue. I do not know the criteria for the selection of an honorary consul. One has an idea that in other countries that the selection of a consul is based on whether the person was a fundraiser for the party in government. I am not saying that is the way it operates in Ireland. I do not know the criteria of how we select a consul or the criteria for where he or she is based. I probably should.

I think it would be important that we invite somebody to outline how the position of consul is filled. The then ambassador in Canada came up with the idea and took the initiative to appoint consuls in Canada, which has gone down very well and is seen as a positive in Canada.

I am conscious that people in other parts of the world go to the consul if they have difficulties and so on. Some consulates are probably more busy than others. I would be interested in how we come up with the criteria for those whom we would like to appoint, who and how they are selected and how one decides on the location.

Senator Daly has raised an important issue and I think it is worthy of investigation by the committee.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Crowe has made the point that we should invite an official from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to outline the procedure. How can it happen in Canada and not in other countries, including the United States? As far as I am aware there are no set rules and regulations. I think a lot depends on the ambassador and other factors. That is not very satisfactory. In this day and age we should have some idea. I do not see anything wrong in making certain that every state in the United States should have some representation on behalf of the Irish people. I support Senator Daly and congratulate him on raising this matter. Let us have officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade come to the committee and tell us what criteria are used, if any, to appoint a consul or whether it is at the whim of the ambassador of the day.

Billy Lawless (Independent)
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I think it is an excellent idea, especially where Senator Daly and I are coming from with regards to the undocumented Irish people in the United State. We would like to get up-to-date figures. The figures we are using are definitely more than ten years old. I would like to know exactly the number of undocumented Irish in the mid American states. We are always concentrating on Chicago, the East Coast and the San Francisco area, but one can be sure that there are thousands of Irish people all over the country. In this day and age we should be compiling lists of our citizens that are abroad.

I certainly would back that.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I think it is worth pursuing the compilation of the information. My question is around the cost factor. Do honorary consuls get expenses? If somebody from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade comes to the committee, I would like them to talk on the cost factor too.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a paid position.

Billy Lawless (Independent)
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The honorary consuls are not paid. It is an honorary position.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I understand there is some allowance to cover some costs.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I think it is about €5,000 per honorary consul per annum. I think that is to cover incidental costs.

The number of people of Irish descent in Montana is 164,746 people, some 16% of the population have Irish heritage and they might get a visit once every three years.

Melbourne in Australia has a major Irish community, born in Ireland and living there. I do not blame the ambassadors or the consulate, but the system or lack of one. It is up to the ambassador to decide whether to appoint somebody. That is not a system. It should be the case that every province in Canada, every state in the United States, every state in Australia would have a consulate or an honorary consul. That is a policy. Leaving it up to the ambassador is not a policy. That is leaving the situation as it is. That is not good enough. If one had a consular strategy, one could decide to review it in three year time. Then we can ask the consular services if they managed to get a consul for each state in America. God knows there are plenty to pick from but one needs to go out and do it. This initiative would assist the implementation on the ground of Government strategy in respect of trade and Ireland reaching out to incentivise people to bring jobs to Ireland. If one were to make a payment to those who were responsible for bringing a job to Ireland, there might be people in Montana who would think of moving some of their operation to Europe. Somebody has to tell them and that is why one has honorary consuls on the ground, not just to assist people in trouble but also to promote our policies and explain to a member of Congress or a public representative in those states the issue of the undocumented Irish and our concern about it.

One will often meet Irish American public representatives, who did not realise what is of concern, because we do not have people on the ground in some of those areas.

I thank my colleagues for their support.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Could I propose that we amend the motion? If we were to request a meeting with the Minister, it could take a considerable time to arrange due to diary commitments. May I suggest that it would be better if we were to ask the director of consular services to come and brief us at an informal meeting. Is Senator Daly in agreement that we invite the director of consular services to brief us and that we amend his motion accordingly?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Chairman, that is fine.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I remember a few times coming across people who had been approached to take up the position of honorary consul, but they could not take it up because of work commitments. Where there is a large Irish population and strong Irish groups and cultural organisations, maybe there has been a kind of tardiness in appointing honorary consuls in such areas.

I do not know. It would be useful if we spoke to Mr. Pat Bourne. He would give us an outline of how the process is undertaken, what the proposals are to expand it or whatever. The host country has a say in the appointments being ratified as well. It may not all be straightforward. I do not know the details. I propose with the committee's agreement that we seek a briefing meeting for members of the committee with the director of consular services. Would that be agreeable to the committee?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will amend the motion.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We will amend the motion to read:

In respect of the recent review of consular and honorary consular services and the importance that appointments are based on reliable information this committee: agrees that the Head of the Consular Section meet with members of the joint committee to provide briefing on the method in which consuls and honorary consuls are appointed;

is concerned over the lack of data available regarding the location of the Irish community living overseas including their specific location;

and, asks that members are supplied with up to date information to ensure the service is fit for purpose and in locations where the Irish community are living.

Is the motion, as amended, agreed? Agreed.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Just before we end the discussion, it is important that at some stage we put on the record our appreciation for all those people in those positions. We do not do that often enough. There can be a huge workload involved in just one case, not to mention a group of cases. Again, I would like to know the criteria but I can understand the reluctance to appoint people because if one wrong person is appointed, that is the one that is remembered, not the others that are positive and so on. I can understand the system being tardy or reluctant to move forward on appointments.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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This is not the same as an ambassador. He could be appointed for three years or five years, so if there is a bad appointee, there can be a change. There is no reason they should be permanent.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We will proceed as I suggested and as agreed with the committee.