Mr. Eugene Gargan:

The Chairman correctly referred to the social value of membership of the Reserve Defence Force. We have taken the view, in light of the response by the military authorities, that they do not see any value whatever to the social element and that we are viewed exclusively through the prism of military value. We recognise that a person who enlists in the Reserve Defence Force derives great benefit from membership. It gives members a sense of purpose and they learn how to operate in a military fashion, as soldiers and with discipline, all of which are very good features and something on which other jurisdictions capitalise. Reference was made to best practice elsewhere. As a representative association, the RDFRA has made countless submissions and numerous points regarding comparators between the RDF and reserve forces in other European countries where the utilisation of the reserve is more effective both militarily and financially.

Culture is a nebulous concept in very large organisations such as the Defence Forces. We come to the issue based on our experience, anecdotal evidence and formal evidence from dealing with issues as they are presented to us. We are limited in what we can do. Reference was made to some of the Defence Forces regulations. Regulation S7, for example, covers the RDFRA as a representative body. We are very constrained in what we can do and how we can assist our members. Regulation R5 effectively covers how the Reserve Defence Force is run at a very high level. Certain aspects of the regulations are in glaring need of update and amendment. We have been waiting for these changes for many years.

The culture issue has emerged slowly in recent years. It exists in a place somewhere in the middle management of the Defence Forces. Mr. Richardson mentioned that the reception we get when we deal with the General Staff - the top layer of management in the Defence Forces - is always polite, business-like and positive. We are told there is a value that is recognised in the Reserve Defence Force and, as far as the General Staff are concerned, they are doing all they can to try to facilitate and utilise it in a meaningful and effective way. Put simply, this does not happen on the ground. The only place where we can identify a breakdown in what we would describe as the commanders' intentions is somewhere in the middle echelons. It is here that they fall apart.

We can probably point to the absence of set targets for unit commanders which specifically call out utilisation or training of Reserve Defence Force elements under their control. This is a problem because if there are no targets set at that level, there is no sanction for failing to meet such targets. I should point out, however, that an effort was made to introduce what is known as key performance indicators, KPIs, in the Defence Forces. This was essentially a matter of counting the number of man days and how many people were in and out. It did not address or seek to implement improvements, which is what we are seeking with the utilisation of the Reserve Defence Force.

As to how the culture manifests itself, in such a broad organisation with such large numbers of members, one invariably finds that some areas will be hot spots and others will be cold spots, if I may use that terminology. It must be recognised that in some areas of the Defence Forces there are individuals who are very pro-reserve. We are very sympathetic to them because they recognise the value of the Reserve Defence Force. Frequently, these individuals are commanders or other Defence Forces employees who were once members of the reserve. While they are great advocates for us, they are swimming against the current because if the rest of the organisation does not support their attempts to utilise us properly, it is a major problem.

I have to call that out and recognise the fact that it is not a universal condemnation of culture within the Defence Forces. However, there are areas where we can see that we represent a risk to someone's career. The safest thing to do with the Reserve under one's command is to do nothing with them so that it cannot do any harm. There are no specific targets set for utilisation.

We are dismayed, obviously, that the Defence Forces has issues with the processing of items such as security clearances. We have brought this up several times before and asked what the solution is to it. It is a simple thing. People coming from a business background will understand how business processes work. Documentation must be tracked through various stages where it is approved, where it goes, who has responsibility and who is accountable for it. There seems to be an unwillingness or an inability to provide for these types of processes, despite the fact that we have a large number of experts within the Reserve who can do this and would be happy to do it. It is quite convenient to blame an Garda Síochána and the Garda vetting unit, but in my experience of other areas I can say that the Garda vetting unit, especially since the advent of e-vetting, is actually quite effective and quite efficient at making returns. One has to ask what is actually happening. Anecdotally we hear that all the applications come in, they might sit on someone's desk, but because there is no sanction for failing to deal with this there is no incentive for anyone to deal with it. There is the breakdown in procedure. There is where the culture manifests itself.

I could speak for the rest of the day about the culture. I do not want to condemn the entire Permanent Defence Forces because that would be unfair. There are some people who bend over backwards to help us, and we are hugely appreciative of that, but sadly they are in the minority.

Regarding recruitment, I would have to refute the point made earlier that there is a failure to recruit because people do not want to join the Reserves. Literally thousands of people want to join. If any other organisation had a return rate of less than one per cent for a recruitment campaign, very serious questions would have to be asked at a high level about what went wrong. Does the organisation possess the intention or the will to address these issues? We can only deduce from that that there is no such will. We can come to that conclusion considering recruitment and how we are constantly fighting with bureaucracy in terms of wages and man day allowances and getting personal protective equipment, which are very standard things in industry or enterprise in civilian life. If it was in a civilian context we would have access to the Workplace Relations Commission, the WRC. There is no sanction and so these issues arise again and again.

The Specialist Reserve was mentioned as well. At the time of the production of the White Paper the former Minister did invite us to participate in part of the process, and we willingly did, and we made our submissions and engaged as fully as we could. Our view at the time was that we endorsed the White Paper. There were some areas in the White Paper which could be interpreted in a number of ways, but we chose as a representative organisation to embrace it as a good thing. We took any ambiguity which arose from that document at face value and took the verbal assurances we got from the Department, the Minister and the military authorities that it would work out in our favour. They recognised our value, and they would seek to use us as best they could, notwithstanding the challenges of employer engagement and the issues that arose from that. We welcomed that. We recognised that the White Paper was an unfinished process and that there were wrinkles that would have to be ironed out, but we were there to help. What we found was that we were invited to the project meetings almost as an afterthought, and that the rest of the participants and stakeholders have already spoken to each other. We are pushed to the back of the queue again, which is very disheartening as well as quite unfair. We have much to offer and much to contribute. It should be borne in mind that our only motivation here is to serve the State and to do so, for the most part, for free. We are a resource which is not being used, and it beggars belief that military authorities and the Department cannot recognise that and use us for what we can provide. Any other country would be crying out for people knocking on the door to try to join up.