Mr. Seamus Mulconry:

It is interesting that the legislation has been drafted and we have had a long debate on religious issues in schools without hard data. That is precisely why we surveyed schools in the Dublin area, in order to provide hard data and give us a picture of what is going on. Most Catholic primary schools will take anybody who turns up. In point of fact, that means that our schools are very diverse. If one goes to Ballaghaderreen or Portlaoise one will find schools which have significant Muslim populations. Therefore there is no barrier to entry other than a lack of places. It is not our desire to have wholly Catholic schools. In point of fact, in the Dublin area I know of no Catholic primary school that is wholly Catholic. There are significant populations from other faiths and significant numbers of people who are of no faith. The issue is a lack of school places. Policy should be driven by data, not by anecdote. If communities are having specific problems - and I am aware and cognisant of the challenges faced by the Muslim community - then we need to understand what is happening.

The Deputy asked an interesting question on whether there were specific areas where there was a problem with the baptismal certificate. It tends to be concentrated, so it is not evenly distributed. There tend to be 15 or 16 here and there. When we did the initial research the first returns came from schools where there was absolutely none because they were taking everybody, so it is concentrated in certain pockets. I think that really needs to be addressed.

If one looks at the data, then there are certain areas. Our point is that over-subscription is increasing. About 18 months ago, a survey of diocesan secretaries was undertaken asking them if there were problems. At that stage we identified about 21 schools. We have now identified in total about 42 areas that are under pressure. Of those, there were 17 where the baptismal certificate comes in. The worst case is a particular location where there were 402 applications for 208 places. There were roughly 16 refusals based on baptism, but - and this is important - there were between six and eight people who were not baptised but were brought in because of the sibling rule. Therefore, this idea that there is some kind of blanket desire to keep people out is absolutely incorrect.

Deputy Burton asked if we could get an overall picture of what is going on in schools. We asked the Department of Education and Skills for that information. They said to us that it was not compulsory for schools to do it and they seemed to be unsure of some of the data they had. Therefore they were not willing to publish it. We would love that information to be made public because, if so, one would find - and I am absolutely convinced of this - that Catholic schools are reflecting the populations of their areas.

I am not sure whether this is around perception or fact, but in some areas there is an issue that Catholic students from outside the catchment area - and most schools in Dublin are operating some variation of a catchment area - are getting preference in Catholic schools and therefore excluding others. The issue for us is that there are three parishes in Dublin which do not have Catholic primary schools and therefore parishes around them have to take that overflow. That may be contributing to a perception that there is an issue on that.

I would love to see more hard data driving policy, so that we can identify where there is a problem, deal with it now as quickly as we can, and then ensure that we predict where problems will arise in future. Our schools are reflective of the communities in which they live.

I would also like to raise an issue that has not yet been raised, but which should be. I was speaking to my colleague in the Edmund Rice Trust which operates 33 primary schools. Almost all of them are DEIS schools with a focus on special needs and minority communities. Not one of them is over-subscribed, so there is something going on here that has less to do with religion and more to do with other factors.

Catholic schools are often picked out as the ones that are somehow to blame for all of this. I would remind people that we have the majority of DEIS schools and we cater to some of the most marginalised communities. My colleagues in the Edmund Rice Trust would be great exemplars; they run fantastic schools in the inner city and other urban locations.

What do we see happening where there is pressure in rural areas? The Department sometimes refers to white flight. In point of fact, what they are talking about is middle-class flight from town schools which may have an immigrant population, to smaller schools on the outskirts. That creates problems for some of our schools on the outskirts. Therefore there is much more going on in admissions than religion, and a sole focus on religion is avoiding the bigger picture.

I will ask my colleague, Ms McCabe, to describe briefly how she deals with the issue of opt-outs in her own school.