Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 2 February 2017
Public Accounts Committee
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 – Prisons
Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts Special Report No. 93: Annualised Hours of the Prison Service
9:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are joined today by representatives of the Department of Justice and Equality, the Irish Prison Service and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to examine Vote 21 of the 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts Special Report No. 93 on the annualised hours of the Prison Service. From the Department of Justice and Equality we are joined by Mr. Noel Waters, Secretary General; Mr. James Martin, assistant secretary; and Mr. Seamus Clifford, principal officer, financial shared services. From the Irish Prison Service we have Mr. Michael Donnellan, director general; Ms Caron McCaffrey, Mr. Trevor Jordon, Ms Mary Leydon and Mr. John McDermott. From the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform we have Mr. Ronan Gallagher.
I remind members, witnesses and those in the Gallery to turn off all mobile phones. If they start to ring, I must stop the conversations as they interfere with the recording of proceedings. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving the evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of that evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members of the committee are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 186 to the effect that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such a policy. Finally, members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The appropriation account for the Vote for prisons recorded gross expenditure of €331 million in 2015. Payment of salaries, wages and allowances totalled €235 million, which represents almost 71% of the total expenditure in 2015. The Prison Service spent just over €47 million on buildings and €26.5 million on prison services, including expenditure on food and cleaning materials etc. The main capital development project being undertaken by the Irish Prison Service in 2015 was construction of a new prison in Cork at a total estimated cost of approximately €45 million. This new medium security prison for adult males has an operational capacity for 275 prisoners and is the committal prison for counties Cork, Kerry and Waterford. The relocation of prisoners from the old Cork prison commenced in early 2016. The Accounting Officer will be able to brief the committee on the proposed future use of the old Cork prison.
A Supplementary Estimate of €6.3 million was voted for the Prison Service in 2015. At the end of the year, the unused surplus for surrender was €1.26 million. The account received a clear audit opinion. However, in my certificate, I draw attention to the Accounting Officer's statement on internal financial control, in which he discloses the level of non-compliance by the Prison Service with national procurement rules in respect of goods and services procured in 2015.
The report for consideration by the committee this morning relates to an examination by my office of the annualised hours system which operates in the Prison Service. This system replaced overtime in the Prison Service from late 2005. Historically, overtime levels were very high in the Prison Service. Overtime costs peaked at €59 million per year in 2002 and 2003. Under the new annualised hours system, prison officers contract to work a fixed number of additional hours annually to a maximum of 360 hours per year over standard rostered hours. When the Prison Service was planning to introduce the system, it was projected that it would result in significant financial savings. I wanted to examine what had been achieved in that regard.
Following the introduction of the annualised hours system, the average number of hours worked by prison officers over and above their basic work week was halved.
The new cap on the number of additional hours that a prison officer may work ended the practice of some individuals working extremely high numbers of hours. There is now a more even distribution of earnings from additional hours.
Prison officers are paid for contracted additional hours at a rate of 1.8 times the basic hourly rate. A related pensionable allowance of 8% of basic pay is paid to each prison officer regardless of the number of additional hours he or she contracts to work. This includes approximately 7% of officers who do not contract to work any additional hours. My examination found that the average overall earnings of prison officers have not changed significantly in cash terms since the introduction of the new system. Prison officers are paid for all of their contracted additional hours but may not be called on to work the full number of hours. Additional hours not worked are called write-off hours. While the average level of write-off hours across the Prison Service in 2014 was 15%, there was significant variation across the 14 prison institutions. Open centres had the highest number of such write-off hours.
The Irish Prison Service has a low ratio of prisoners to prison officers relative to prison services in other states. This suggests that some efficiency gains may be possible. The joint task reviews that were carried out under the 2010-14 and 2013-16 public service agreements resulted in changes to staffing configurations. No in-depth review of the tasks carried out in prisons and the resources required for those tasks has been carried out since 2001. In particular, there was no formal process for the identification of potential efficiencies which may have arisen from prison infrastructure expenditure, which came to a total of €223 million between 2001 and 2014.
The Prison Service anticipated that the introduction of the annualised hours system would result in a reduction of approximately one third in the amount of sick leave taken by prison officers relative to 2001 levels. Sick leave levels increased significantly between 2001 and 2005. The incidence of sick leave fell significantly after the introduction of the annualised system, but the reduction achieved to date has not been to the level anticipated by the Prison Service.
The Prison Service estimated that the annualised hours system would produce savings of €31 million a year. This was not achieved. The examination estimated that the average annual net salary saving as a result of the introduction of the annualised hours system is approximately €5.5 million a year. Furthermore, the savings achieved to the end of 2014 were offset by substantial lump sum payments, totalling €41 million, to serving prison officers when the new system was introduced. As a result, the estimated net Exchequer saving over the period 2006 to 2014 was approximately €8 million.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I ask Mr. Noel Waters, who is the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, to make his opening statement.
Mr. Noel Waters:
I thank the Chairman. I have circulated a copy of my opening statement. I propose to focus on a few points from it rather than delaying the committee by reading the statement verbatim. I might ask my colleague, Mr. Michael Donnellan, who is the Director General of the Irish Prison Service, to say a few words at the end if that is okay. I acknowledge the useful work that has been done by the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff to determine where we are going with annualised hours.
As I have set out in my statement, there was a long history behind the agreement to introduce annualised hours in the Prison Service in 2005. To put it simply, the decision to introduce annualised hours was made against a background of very substantial overtime working in the Prison Service, which cost a considerable amount of money and led to inefficient and ineffective ways of operating the service. At one point, the level of overtime in the Prison Service was very close to that in the Garda Síochána, which is a much bigger force. I can come back to that point later in our discussions.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is Mr. Waters going through his statement?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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He is summarising it.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does he have a different document?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is okay. I just wanted to know. Do I have the correct document?
Mr. Noel Waters:
Yes. I am not in any way questioning the validity of the points made by the Comptroller and Auditor General when I say I know from my discussions and my reviews with prison management personnel over recent years that they believe the system of annualised hours has brought about a sea change in how prisons can be managed and has contributed greatly to securing efficiencies against a background of making much-needed reforms in the prison system. A review that is taking place at present is assessing whether further improvements can be made in the system. We can talk about this during the course of the morning.
I accept that the savings involved have not been as great as those which were initially hoped for. This is largely due to a decision by an independent body to provide compensation on a scale greater than that which the Prison Service had argued was warranted for the changes which had been made. By its nature, this was outside the control of the Prison Service. Nonetheless, I think the Comptroller and Auditor General's report recognises that real and significant savings have been achieved. A former Minister of State in the Department said at the time that "despite reservations ... about the deal that emerged [it was] accepted that the overall package represented a workable way forward for the future". It is certainly the view of Prison Service management that this has proven to be the case in the intervening period.
Of course the annualised hours system is not perfect. No system could be perfect in the particular circumstances of closed and open prisons. Twelve years on, if I were faced with a choice between a demonstrably unpredictable and inefficient overtime system and a system of annualised hours that delivers efficiencies, predictability and significant savings, I would recommend to the Minister and the Government that a similar decision to that taken in 2005 be taken again now.
As I have said, Mr. Donnellan will highlight a few of the headline significant changes that have been made in the prison system. In that respect, a crucial change which has occurred over the past decade has been the elimination of unplanned temporary release, or the "revolving door" as it was known. That practice, which was a major feature of the overcrowded system over many years, had an enormously corrosive impact on the entire criminal justice system.
I will conclude by mentioning three items of significant infrastructural development that are in planning. The E block in Portlaoise Prison is in urgent need of replacement due to its dilapidated state. It is expected that construction works on the refurbishment of the two remaining wings in Limerick Prison, along with a stand-alone female facility, will begin towards the end of this year, depending on a tendering competition. Most significantly, a new blueprint for the staged development of the Mountjoy complex, which is designed to extend its viability as a prison complex for decades to come, is in contemplation and, subject to Government approval, is likely be part of a public consultative process later this year. I would like to hand over to Mr. Donnellan now to say a few opening words.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We do not have an opening statement from Mr. Donnellan. That is fine. We will listen carefully.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
I thank the Chairman. As the Secretary General has mentioned, the committee will be aware of significant changes and reforms that have occurred in the Prison Service in recent years. The prison system has experienced severe strain and has had to deal with the continuing challenge of overcrowding. Thankfully, overcrowding has been eliminated due to a number of factors, including enhanced pre-release planning, structured temporary release, community return and community release. The number of people in custody has fallen by 20% from its peak in 2011. More important, the number of people on temporary release has decreased by 70% from its peak. There is no doubt that this is making society much safer. The implementation of the fines legislation is starting to have an effect on committals. We have not yet seen the full benefit of that. Last year, we saw a decrease of 15% in the number of people being committed to prison for non-payment of fines. This is very welcome.
We are continuing to develop a comprehensive capital programme. Having developed new modernised accommodation in Castlerea Prison, Portlaoise Prison, Wheatfield Prison and the Midlands Prison, our priority now is to develop existing accommodation with a special focus on rehabilitation and the elimination of slopping out. Five years ago, there were 1,000 people, or 25% of the prison population, slopping out. Fewer than 50 prisoners, or 1% of the prison population, are slopping out today. We hope to eliminate that with the development of facilities in Limerick and Portlaoise in the coming years. The opening of the new Cork Prison in 2016 was a major initiative as the previous prison in Cork was the worst prison in our prison estate. The introduction of an incentivised prisoner regime system has helped with behaviour and has helped to drive down violence in the prison system.
The committee will be aware that for various reasons, some prisoners have to be accommodated separately from other prisoners. We call this a restricted regime and we have been working very hard in the past number of years to reduce the number of people who are on 22-hour or 23-hour lock-up, as it is called, or solitary confinement down to a manageable number. Significant progress has been made on that.
We have also been working with the Central Statistics Office, CSO, in ensuring we can measure recidivism and measure the effectiveness of prison. Our first reports were published in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010 and during that period we have seen a drop in recidivism, that is, of people re-offending within a three year period, from 55% to 45%. I hope in the next five to ten years I will see that percentage dropping down to 35%, which is the norm of the Nordic countries. I am confident that the successful implementation of our strategy has really helped the prison system.
I look forward to developing our new strategy, which we are now implementing, which is built around supporting prisoners, supporting our staff, supporting victims and developing organisational capacity. This has to be against the backdrop of additional hours, AH, which has allowed stability and predictability in the system and the diversion of much-needed funds to a more rehabilitative focus.
I thank the Chairman and members.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will start with Deputy Marc MacSharry, who has 20 minutes. Deputy Catherine Connolly has 15 minutes. Deputies David Cullinane and Josepha Madigan have indicated in that order.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for appearing before the committee.
Will Mr. Waters outline from where the envisaged €31 million in savings would have arisen? I note that when an independent body determined a compensation payment regime for officers, a cumulative €8 million was realised in savings between 2005 and 2012, as opposed to savings of €31 million per year.
Mr. Noel Waters:
I will give an overview and then I will call on my colleagues from the Prison Service.
The level of overtime running during that period in the 2000s was escalating at a rapid rate. The bill for overtime had risen from €54 million, up to €55 million, culminating at €59 million in the space of a couple of years, which gave rise to very serious difficulties in the entire justice sector in meeting a bill of that level every year. The money allocated for other services and in other subheads had to be diverted to pay the overtime bill. During that period, as I said in my opening remarks, the overtime for the Garda Síochána was about €65 million. There were about 3,000 officers in the Prison Service, whereas the number of members of the Garda Síochána was much larger. Clearly the issue of overtime had to be resolved as it was not sustainable.
A review of the figures from 1997 up to the early 2000s was conducted to see if there could be a better way of organising the service. They looked at four different options, namely, hiring more staff, time off in lieu, trying to curtail the overtime system and the annualised hours system. They came down in favour of the annualised hours, and this was approved by a Minister and everybody else in the system. They went into each prison and looked at the number of hours required to run the prison, came up with a global figure - and my colleagues can elaborate on that - of rostered hours and overtime hours that it would take to run the Prison Service right across all the individual institutions. I believe 16 institutions may have been in operation at that time. That global figure ultimately fed its way into the €31 million saving which was identified at that time and was based on an expenditure of €59 million in overtime. In subsequent years that overtime bill fell back to €46 million.
I ask Mr. Donnellan to give Deputy MacSharry a flavour of how the numbers that arose came about.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
As the Secretary General has said, there was an envisaged saving of €31 million and that was against an overtime budget at its height of €59 million. However, when the deal came up for signature in 2005, the overtime figures for the year 2003-04 had dropped from €59 million to €46 million. This reduction was because the then Government closed two prisons, the Curragh and Spike Island in Cork, which freed up 150 officers to be redeployed back into the system, which offset that overtime difference. The real figure for benchmarking in our view should have been €46 million, which would have given a gross saving of €19 million per year. The deal was put to a vote of the prison officers and then went to the Civil Service Arbitration Board. The Civil Service Arbitration Board awarded the prison officers an 8% operational allowance and a lump sum of just under €14,000 per officer. That further eroded those saving. The next savings, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said are just over €5 million a year in real savings or just over €8 million, if one takes in the pension costs. That explains the background to that ambitious figure in 2002-03 of saving €31 million a year.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Donnellan clarify for the people watching what is the role of the Civil Service Arbitration Board, because people probably thought he was talking about the Workplace Relations Commission. Is it a separate body? Some people might have heard of it but some people would have presumed it was a Labour Court who made this adjudication. Will Mr. Donnellan explain why the Civil Service Arbitration Board and not the Labour Court made that adjudication?
Mr. Noel Waters:
Perhaps our colleague from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform may be able to help the committee on this, but my understanding is that the Civil Service Arbitration Board was an offshoot body of the Labour Court put in place specifically to deal with disputes that arose in the Civil Service. However, I am to correction from Mr. Gallagher on that point.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr Gallagher tell us about it, whether it is still in existence, its function and so on because we do not hear too often about the Civil Service Arbitration Board.
Mr. Ronan Gallagher:
There is a separate mediation body that determines or arbitrates on issues that arise between management and the staff side. The prison officers come under the Civil Service and fall into that scheme.
In many way it reflects the same type of process that is in the Workplace Relations Commission.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This is an open question. Is the Labour Relations Commission for the semi State and the private sector and the Workplace Relations Commission a parallel institution for the Civil Service? People might not be fully aware of this body. Who is the chairman? Will Mr. Gallagher explain how it works? It does not get mentioned too often. We might seek a note on it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on, but Mr. Gallagher gets the point that because people would have assumed it was the Labour Court.
Mr. Noel Waters:
The nearest parallel that would be there today is in respect of the recent issue with the Garda Síochána, which went to the Workplace Relations Commission. It made a recommendation on an award which the Government accepted in respect of Garda pay and allowances. That is the nearest equivalent by today's standards of what was happening in the Civil Service Arbitration Board.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will seek a note on the Civil Service Arbitration Board and how the system works.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Are there savings of €19 million a year?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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As opposed to €31 million?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand as Mr. Donnellan has explained it. That is perfect. Notwithstanding the lump sum of €14,000 per officer and an allowance of 8% can we look forward in future accounts to an annual saving in the region of €19 million?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Why is that?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The lump sum is a once-off payment. What level of savings could we look forward to in the years ahead?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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€8.5 million per annum.
Mr. Noel Waters:
To be clear about that, the Comptroller and Auditor General has helpfully pointed out that does not include the pensionability of the allowance, which would take another €3 million off it. If one compares on a direct basis with what was paid out in overtime, one is looking at savings of the order of €8.5 million. The actual payment every year on annualised hours in more recent years has been of the order of €32 million.
The equivalent overtime payment in a direct comparison basis in the most recent year it was used was €46 million, but other elements to this have happened in the meantime.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned the annualised hours situation there and I understand that people could sign up to work three different bands, up to 360 hours. I guess that the entire prison service opted for 360. Did they?
Mr. Noel Waters:
Initially it may have been of the order of 80%. There were further developments on this in respect of the Croke Park and Haddington Road agreements, which brought this back down to 70%. There were new arrangements about the various ratios between the different bands which were put in place. Does the Director General want to speak on that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
As can be seen on the screen, there were four bands. There was band 0, then 112 hours, 240 hours and 360 hours. At the time, there was a requirement for as many people to work as many hours as possible and about 85% of people worked 360 hours, the top band. However, following the Haddington Road agreement, there was a requirement for us to address cost control issues and cost reduction issues. We were required to meet a level of 70% of staff on 360 hours, 10% on 112, 10% on 240 and 10% on 0. We are nearly at those. That has provided a saving to our pay bill of about €3.5 million. That was a further refinement through a whole range of agreements that were made. For instance, the Croke Park agreement required further staff savings and there was a headcount reduction of about 230 staff. Since then there have been reductions and savings on our prison Vote.
Mr. Noel Waters:
It is important to say that a number of people did not want to work any hours at all. There was compulsory overtime before this was introduced. The system had to work. Middle management in prisons had the authority to call people in on overtime because they simply had no choice. Escorts had to be provided for people to go to court. People had to make hospital visits. People at this stage were in an ever-increasing culture of overtime within most prisons, particularly the big ones. Many people just wanted out of that in its entirety as well.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand. For clarity for people watching and for the record, under the annualised hours system, if one signs up for 360 hours, one gets paid for 360 hours. If one happens to be in Arbour Hill Prison, for argument's sake, and 360 hours were not available but 220 were available, one would work for the 220 but be paid for 360. Is that correct?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to them as write-off hours. The average is 15% around the country, but are there prisons where it is substantially higher than that?
Mr. Noel Waters:
The average has fallen back since 2015. It is now in the order of about 9% across the country which, when broken down and the number of staff in all institutions taken into account, is on average about 24 hours on a yearly basis. It varies very significantly from institution to institution. The big closed institutions tend to have few or no write-off hours because there is a huge amount of work going on there with prisoners moving in and out, hospital visits, court visits, and so on. A big write-off arises in respect of the open centres, Shelton Abbey and Loughan House. Does Mr. Donnellan want to speak on that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
To put it in perspective, the write-off is now down to 8%. Take a comparison between Shelton Abbey and Cloverhill Prison, which the Comptroller and Auditor General looked at. Cloverhill Prison is a full operating remand prison and is very busy with people going in and out all the time, all around the country. The write-off there is negligible. However, in Shelton Abbey we must remember that the total staff comprises only 50 officers, of whom 40 are on additional hours. There are only 29 on the 360 band. A very small number of staff proportionally are getting the benefit of the write-off in comparison to the vast numbers which are in our closed prisons. One of the principles of the system was that there would be a write-off. The write-off was always seen as part of smarter working and more efficient working where annualised hours in the private sector and the semi-State sector are concerned. The write-off was always a feature of additional hours.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What is the level of write-off in other jurisdictions in the prison service? What is the average?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There is obviously a lack of flexibility if there is capacity at one prison to transfer to one of the busier centres. What has been done to try to address that? Have there been negotiations with the unions? Has it been a topic for discussion?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
It is an issue. As can be seen following the recommendation of the Comptroller and Auditor General, we have undertaken a review of the annualised hours, in particular on the methodology and allocation of additional hours and also alternative methodologies for the current annualised hours, AH, system. It is important to say that this is an agreed system. It has been agreed by all sides, so if we change it we have to change it by agreement with everybody. The Deputy is right that it could be utilised more efficiently and at the current time, the AH is attracted to the officer rather than the need.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General suggested that the Irish Prison Service is going to undertake a review. Is there a timeframe for that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
We have terms of reference which we have set out for the people looking at that and we will have their report by the end of February. We will then look at their report, take that to the unions and discuss the recommendations in terms of efficiency. Overall the system is efficient and those big write-offs occur in very small numbers.
Mr. Noel Waters:
The review is under way. I would not attempt to underplay the difficulties that there will in terms of changing that. The prison officers are very well represented by their union representatives. Getting to where we are now took a very long time. They operate on the basis, as one would expect of any union, of "what we have we hold". We will have to negotiate that with them. That is going to be an issue for us, but we are up for that. If we can have independent evidence that can show that the system can work even better, and we await what the outcome of the review will be, I think we can take that forward. It will be a tough fight.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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When one looks at the deal, there is not a worker in the country who would not like them to be representing them.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The ratio is about 1:1.2 officers to prisoners, and I think internationally it is about 1:2.7. I may be corrected about that, but I think it is there or thereabouts. Is there a forum where prison services get together and discuss things? Is there a formal association?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How are they operating with fewer people? How can we aspire to that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
We operate within the European context, under the Council of Europe, so the director generals of all prison and probation services meet every year to discuss certain topics. We are also the founding member of the European Organisation of Prison and Correctional Services, EuroPris. All prisons in Europe join it. Some 30 prison systems are now part of EuroPris. We can benchmark ourselves against those prisons, ask those prisons a question and get 29 answers back on a topic. We have a lot of contact there. More important, we are part of what is called a benchmarking group, which is made up of Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden. Our statisticians meet every year, and we benchmark ourselves against each other and against the same criteria. For instance, the Council of Europe figures benchmark people for a whole range of staff who are not in the prison. In Norway and Sweden, they have what is called the import model. Many of their services are imported from the community, including health services, education services and work training services. In our system, we hire our own work training officers and our own health services at the moment. The only thing we import is education. When we are benchmarked like for like, of who is inside the prison wall, this is what we get.
We see that Denmark has 1.1 prisoners to every member staff, Finland has 1.3, we have 1.2, the Netherlands has 0.9, and Norway and Sweden each have one for one. Taken in that context, we are not too far out from the norm. We were much better five years ago when we had massive overcrowding, but that was not effective, efficient or beneficial. Communities were not safer when we had 30% more prisoners being managed by approximately the same number of prison officers. The prison officer is the key change agent within a prison. It is not the psychologist or psychiatrist; it is the class officer who intervenes with prisoners every day on the landing. That is what can bring about massive change. We are in the zone when compared with the other members of our benchmarking group. If we want quality prisons, we have to pay for quality staff in appropriate numbers. That is not to say we cannot be more efficient.
Mr. Noel Waters:
To add to what Mr. Donnellan said, if we look at other jurisdictions, we see there is an easy way of changing the ratio. One can build very large prisons with perhaps 2,000 prisoners, as we have seen with the privatised facilities in our neighbouring jurisdiction, with very few staff and mostly automated systems. However, that is not the Irish way. We operate on the basis of having prisons located in and served by the local community. Families of prisoners have committed no crime and need to be able to visit their loved ones. Culturally, our position is much more in keeping with the Nordic model of smaller numbers, which does bring a cost with it. That is broadly our policy.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The authorities are happy with a ratio of 1.2:1. We have it right and some other countries have a different system which would not suit us. Is that the position?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
There is no doubt we can be more efficient but we have a system comprising small regional prisons. For example, we have a prison in Cork that takes 275, one in Limerick that takes 200 and another in Castlerea in Roscommon that takes 350. As the Secretary General indicated, in other states like Britain, those facilities would be amalgamated with much greater efficiencies. However, we consider it important to have a regional structure. We have made efficiencies and must continue to do so, particularly around technology.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of sick leave, it was hoped the annualised hours, AH, system would reduce sick leave. The Comptroller and Auditor General indicated that while there was a reduction post-2005, there had been a very steep rise between 2001 and 2005. Why did sick leave increase in 2015?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Sick leave levels in 2013 and 2014 reduced on the back of central measures that were introduced by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform which implemented a reduction in sick leave entitlement for civil servants from six months to three months and so on. That change led to a reduction in sick leave for 2013 and 2014. In 2015, we saw a return to the sick leave level we currently have. Benchmarking us against the group of other European countries in terms of total sick leave lost within the system, Ireland stands at 5.2% of all losses, Sweden is at 6.1%, the Netherlands has a figure of 6.5%, Norway is at 7.9%, and Finland's figure is 5.5%. In other words, we are not doing too badly. On average, there are 15 days of sick leave per officer per year. If one strips out injury on duty and maternity-related sick leave, that comes down to 11 days per officer per year, which is not bad given the type of work prison officers have to do. There is no comparison between their work and the work being done by a civil servant in an office. We have a range of measures to tackle sick leave. The levels are unacceptable and we are always trying to drive them down. When the AH system was introduced, we saw a significant reduction in sick leave, and the 2015 figures should be viewed in that context.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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On claims, what are non-compensation-related legal costs?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
It is quite complicated but, essentially, they relate to claims taken by prisoners against us. There are three types of such claims. The first is where a prisoner challenges the validity of the order holding him or her in prison. Second, prisoners can take a challenge against us for a decision we make about them on behalf of the Minister. In the case of a decision on entitlement to one third remission, for example, a prisoner can take a challenge to the High Court, as some have done, which is very expensive. The third claim prisoners can take is where they consider their regime to be incompatible with their human rights. For instance, gangland prisoners who are kept separate from other people and prisoners who are allowed only screen visits might challenge that in the High Court. In such cases, we would have to appoint matching counsel and defend the case. Those are the costs associated with non-compensation. Much of the total is made up by legal costs, but a small part is for compensation awards to prisoners. These are sometimes given for very pragmatic reasons where, say, we get advice that it is not worth defending a challenge at a cost of €100,000 and it would be better to pay €10,000.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Donnellan.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting. Is there any female governor across the 14 prisons?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand all the campus governors are male.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
We have the first female acting campus governor in Portlaoise, Ethel Gavin, who was promoted last month. We also have a female governor in charge of the Dóchas women's prison. In addition, there is a female governor II at the West Dublin campus. More and more of our female staff are coming through.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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To be clear, there are three out of 15 female governors in total?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Yes, at senior level. We also have women coming through at chief officer level, including my colleague, Ms McCaffrey, who is here with me today. Women play a very important part in a prison system and for too long our system was too male-orientated. We are trying to re-balance that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Donnellan explain what is meant by a governor II?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
At the top level is the campus governor, who is in charge of one of the large campuses. We have three such campuses, at Mountjoy, West Dublin and Portlaoise. We then have a governor I, of which there are only two posts at the moment. The governor II is the operational governor within the prison, below whom is a governor III.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On compensation, there are 78 cases of claims by prison staff. Do they mostly relate to assaults by prisoners?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Yes, by and large. There are three other levels of compensation to be dealt with, taking out the one we just talked about. One aspect of that is run by a compensation tribunal, which is similar to a Civil Service tribunal. The State Claims Agency manages the remainder of claims, which includes compensation for both prisoners and prison officers. In the case of prison officers, compensation mostly relates to assaults, but also trips and falls and all the usual hazards one finds in a prison.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is there a risk assessment for trips and falls?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the figure for trips reducing?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What percentage of the claims by prison staff relate to trips and falls?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There are 200 claims from prisoners. Is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The payout, at €5,600 on average, was low. The costs were astronomical at €661,000.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The figures are actually greater than the amount of compensation awarded. What was the nature of the claims by prisoners?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
The claims range from being held illegally, to rights being infringed, to being assaulted by another prisoner, to falling down the stairs, to not getting the right medical treatment. It could be anything. The prisoner gets approximately 10% or 20% of the award and the legal fees cover the rest of it. The awards are relatively small.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Claims were made by 35 members of the public.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What was the nature of the claims in these 35 cases?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Surely, that could be eliminated.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I wish to ask a number of specific questions and then I will come back to the rehabilitative side. There was significant overpayment in respect of payroll. How is that happening?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What was the figure for the overpayment?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I just wonder how it can happen with new technology.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
We have an overpayment figure of €504,000. That is a cumulative rolling figure. Overpayments arise for a range of reasons. The main reason relates to late notification to the payroll. These cases can relate to paternity leave, maternity leave or sick leave. We run the payroll on Tuesday to be paid for the following Thursday week. That will be corrected within the following pay cycle. Approximately 18% of our overpayments are natural overpayments that are corrected in the next cycle.
The next group arise from our errors in respect of the effective communication between the prisons, our payroll section and the Paymaster General in respect of paying salaries.
The main point on overpayments is that we recoup all overpayments.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There were 139 repayment plans in place, but none were in place in 79 cases.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
They relate to people who are currently off our payroll. They might be on maternity leave, long-term sick leave or leave of absence. When they come back onto the payroll, the repayment plan will commence. If they do not come back onto the payroll for some reason, it will be deducted from their pension.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All of it will be recouped. Is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When Mr. Donnellan is before the committee next year-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Prison Service will have the same level but it is only operational. Is that the point?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Yes. Also, detection of our overpayments has increased because we are more efficient now. We are picking up more and more overpayments. Previously, overpayment rates were not as high. Our view is that we were not picking up the faults. We have a robust system now. We have dedicated staff watching overpayment. Reconciliation takes place twice per year. We get back 98% of overpayments. Short of someone leaving the country or not being on a pension, we take it back.
Mr. Noel Waters:
I wish to draw out a point. This is a concern throughout the public service. Secretaries General and Accounting Officers of all Departments are alive to this issue. The public services share centre is now managing pay for a large number of civil servants. A key focus is to drive down the level of overpayments throughout the system.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What was the level of overpayments before that? What are the levels measured against?
Mr. Noel Waters:
While each Department was running its own payroll, we actually had our own shared services centre in Killarney for several Departments. It was difficult to find a measure throughout the system because each Department was running its own payroll. Now, it has been centralised. One of the key issues is to get the figure as close to zero as possible. That will be difficult given the structural nature of our payroll systems. Payroll systems are run, in some cases, two weeks in advance of the payment. It is difficult to change that. It requires major structural and information technology change. All Accounting Officers are concerned about the level of payroll overpayments.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The non-compliance with procurement rules is rather high. The Prison Service identified 38 arrangements for the Comptroller and Auditor General with a total value of almost €8 million.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How could that happen, aside from emergency situations? The Prison Service has identified two urgent purchases. What about the rest?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is what I am asking about. I am conscious of time. My question is why it was breached?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
There are three main reasons. Under proprietary goods, there were 14 cases valued at €2.4 million. Proprietary goods in the prison system include our locking system and our time and attendance system. These are bespoke systems and have historical context. We have to replace all our locking with the same company. They are the proprietary cases.
We had seven cases at a value of €3.4 million.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Donnellan is saying the systems are historical and the service is tied in. Is that correct?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
It will only be corrected as new prisons come along with new locking systems. We are also developing a bespoke time and attendance system. This will get rid of the time and attendance legacy issue.
Under the Office of Government Procurement we had seven cases in 2015 at a value of €3.4 million. I am happy to report that in six of those cases, contracts are now in place and one is in the making.
The third issue relates to roll-over contracts and there were six cases under this heading. Now, we have contracts in place for the majority. In these cases the facilities in our procurement system were not available to go out to tender. The contract was rolled-over to pull off the contract for a further few months.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Were the 38 cases identified by the Prison Service? Did the systems control it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This time next year what should the figure be?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Let us consider it overall in terms of circular 40/2002 cases. In 2008, we had 187 exemptions under circular 40/2002 whereas today, we have 38. We are driving the figure down, but it will always be in or around that number. This is because the three elements I referred to will always be in play.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My colleague went into the annualised hours system. A review was carried out in 2001 by the staffing and operations review team, SORT. It was recommended that another comprehensive review should take place. Why has this not taken place? It is now 16 years later.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I saw that and I read it. I understand the Prison Service is carrying out staff reviews.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has the Prison Service decided not to put in place another SORT? That is what the Comptroller and Auditor General seems to be recommending. At least, he is asking the question.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I read that and I accept the Prison Service is doing all of that. The Comptroller and Auditor General might come in later and comment on why he is asking the question. As I understand it from reading the document, the report was far more comprehensive, whereas the ongoing reports are targeted for savings in specific areas as opposed to an overall review.
Mr. Noel Waters:
We accept the point. We have no reason to get into dispute with the Comptroller and Auditor General on that point. However, we need to put some context on the discussion. When this was happening, it was a programme of fundamental or transformational change in the prison system. At the same time, numbers were spiralling upwards and they had to be managed. Allied to that, the Prison Service headquarters was moving from Dublin to Longford. This meant there was practically a 100% changeover of staff. Almost 100% of the staff who ended up in Longford had not been in the headquarters in Dublin, although I stand to be corrected on that. All of that had to be managed as well. At the same time, the prison system had to function.
We take the point entirely. We do need to go right into the guts of this again now in the context of-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does the Secretary General accept the recommendation to carry out a full review?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When will it be done? What is the time span?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Will the Department set a timeframe for the work? When will the report be completed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand the changes. Is the Irish Prison Service committed to a full reform of the whole system?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I wish to return to discussing the efficiencies, savings and the identified €8 million. Was the €8 million applied to rehabilitative programmes? If so, where? Please identify the programmes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It has been said that is gone now.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand. Please identify where the savings have been applied to rehabilitative programmes.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Now we have developed all of our work and training areas. We have developed our education areas. We have put a huge amount of money into community return, helping people to step down from prison and to transition properly. All of that money is now being put into rehabilitation.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the rehabilitation budget increase as a result of the savings?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Can Mr. Donnellan identify where those savings were put back into rehabilitation?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am delighted to see the term "restorative justice" mentioned. What is happening with restorative justice?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Within a prison system we would try to develop what we call restorative practice rather than justice. So it is having a restorative model within our prison system from prisoner to prisoner and mediation within disputes. Restorative practice is a slow burn. The Probation Service has a number of initiatives and projects.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have seen the words "pilot restorative justice practice". Does that refer to restorative justice for prisoners leaving or is it for prisoners within the system?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What about the Probation Service?
Mr. Jimmy Martin:
And the Probation Service. There are various aspects, as restorative justice is quite a wide family. It normally involves a person who admits guilt and then he or she agrees to engage with the victim but the victim has to agree. Rather than being sent to prison, for example, there would be liaising. There are a few schemes being run around the country.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What number of prisoners and money is involved? Is it a tiny amount?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I would appreciate a note. How extensive is the drugs problem? I mean the taking of drugs, the treatment for drug addiction and preventing the problem.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are drugs being imported into the prison system?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are there treatment programmes for drug addicts?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that the minimum of places?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many places are provided for the overall population? What is the overall prison population?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What percentage of those prisoners have mental health issues, drug problems or alcohol problems? Has the Prison Service told the Government what it needs in order to have a humane and rehabilitative system?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As much as 70%?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has the Prison Service analysed what it needs to deal with the problem?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What has the Prison Service told the Government?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
The Prison Service actually provides, in my view, a very important role in helping people detox and come off drugs. It is an opportunity, when prisoners do come into prison, for them to straighten themselves out, to detox with medical help and then to prepare for their release.
Mental health issues are a massive problem. People say that our prisons are our new asylums because we get so many people who have acute mental health problems. We have, at any one time, up to 30 people in prison who are psychotic or are waiting for a place in an acute mental facility. Mental health is a huge issue in prisons.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have been told by the Chair to finish up.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that €23 million since 2011?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What has the Prison Service requested from the Government? What is the Prison Service's analysis of the problem? In what direction does the Prison Service wish to go in respect of the humane and rehabilitative aspects?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand all of that. I have asked specific questions. Having the experience and figures, what is the Prison Service's plan? What does the Prison Service need?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Early intervention. We are constantly saying that in order to stop people falling out of society and into prison we need early intervention and at the earliest possible time. People end up in the justice system but the justice system has to pick up all of the pieces. It is the education system, the housing system and the social welfare system. As highlighted by the penal policy review group, we need a joined-up-Government approach to drive down imprisonment rates. We have started to do that in Ireland for the first time. A whole-of-Government approach to penal policy is very innovative.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Cullinane. We have ten-minute slots at this stage.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have a number of questions for the Comptroller and Auditor General because I seek clarity. On page 13, paragraph 1.7, of his report he stated the estimated savings were to be €31 million. That was the plan. Was that figure for 2005 to 2014, inclusive? Was it a target?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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For clarity purposes, what period did the general expectation cover?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General measured that general expectation against what was actually achieved. I am looking at two graphs, figure 3.4 on page 35 and figure 3.5 on page 36. He said that an overall saving of €8 million had been achieved. Is that correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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A cash saving.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did the general estimation of €31 million include those types of issues?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Notwithstanding that, the estimation was, or the intention or hope was, to achieve a net saving of €31 million.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The actual cash saving was €8 million.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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On page 27, in reference to the Staffing and Operations Review Team, SORT, report, it states that the report noted the need for building renovations and in some cases major construction projects, and that most of this work would result in a reduction of staffing requirements, as well as contributing to a better living environment for prisoners and an improved working environment for staff. My reading of that is that there is a heavy emphasis being placed on capital investment and on renovations, and a direct correlation being made between that and a reduction in staffing requirements. Would that be a fair interpretation?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It states that it would result in a reduction of staffing requirements.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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On page 24, in reference to sick leave, it states that it has been alleged that under the overtime system there was an incentive for prison officers to "play the system" and that some prison officers took sick leave to boost the income of colleagues and vice versa. I am wondering why an allegation was included in this report. Our job is to examine facts and ventilate whether an allegation is, in fact, something that happened, so I am looking for clarification.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that but it is included in this report.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I understand but it is quite unusual, in my view, to include an allegation in a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General's office.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There is a reference made to an allegation. I am asking if that allegation was tested. Is it still an allegation or has it been proved that there were, as was said, prison officers playing the system?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thought that it was unusual for an allegation to be included in the report, even if it was referencing something else. That is my observation on it.
The Accounting Officer is Mr. Waters. Can we go back to the first point I put to the Comptroller and Auditor General on the estimated saving of €31 million against the actual cash saving of €8 million? In the years 2009-2014, can Mr. Waters outline, cumulatively or on a yearly basis, what level of savings were achieved in payroll as a result of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2015, FEMPI, cuts?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I understand all that but I have asked a direct question about FEMPI, so can that be answered first, please?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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From 2009 to 2014, what were the total FEMPI savings?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Some €11 million came from FEMPI.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is not something the Department can claim credit for. I am going back to the expectation that we would achieve a saving of €31 million.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What we are looking at are overall net figures and the total cost to the State. What I am pointing out is that many of the savings which were made on payroll were actually made by FEMPI cuts and not by any efficiencies or changes in work practices or overtime.
Mr. Noel Waters:
We have figures here which demonstrate that once annualised hours were introduced, from the period from 2006 onwards, the actual cost of annualised hours varied from about €31 million up to €35 million. In the previous years when overtime was the system used in the prison system, the expenditure went from a high of €59 million down to around €46 million. There is a clear correlation between the €46 million to €59 million to an average of around €31 million or €32 million in the period after annualised hours were introduced. That was a clear saving directly related to annualised hours.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not disputing that there were no clear savings because of those changes. What I am saying is that, in terms of the overall savings achieved, much of that was achieved as a result of FEMPI cuts, which had nothing to do with the Department. They were simply cuts that were introduced unilaterally. There were significant savings. Was it €13 million or €16 million?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They were cash savings of €13 million. It is important to note that this had nothing to do with anything that was done-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I have not disputed that at all. I am simply pointing out-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If I can return to the point regarding prison infrastructure on page 27, I would make the point again that there was a correlation made between construction projects, renovations and so on and a reduction in staffing requirements. Did the Department or the Irish Prison Service have an eye on achieving a reduction in staffing requirements in the context of any capital spend from 2005 onwards? What was the total capital spend from 2005 to 2014? When looking at strategies and at what type of works were being done, how did that aim of reducing staffing requirements feed into that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
In terms of getting efficiencies from capital expenditure through staffing and savings, if one goes back to 2007 with the new C block in Portlaoise Prison, which replaced the D block, as a result of that there was a bed capacity increase of 103 spaces and a staff reduction of 24 staff. That was a direct result of introducing a new building. When we opened the Dóchas women's prison there was an increased prisoner capacity of 30 with an increase of one staff member. The same applied to Loughan House. If we take a more recent example-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I asked for the total. I am looking for two pieces of information. One is the total capital spend from 2005 to 2014.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What was the reduction in staffing that resulted from that capital investment in overall terms? I appreciate the examples given but we need the overall figure.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the overall figure? Has any analysis been done on the direct correlation between the capital investment and a reduction in staffing requirements?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That was in the SORT report, which makes it very clear that this was something that should have been achieved. Is that information available?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Can a commitment be given to undertake that analysis and provide this committee with those figures?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. That is it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To be of assistance to the Deputy, I suggest that somebody on his side make a specific note of that just in case because many things are said during the couple of hours during which we meet.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I return to the point I raised with the Comptroller and Auditor General about the allegation that was made about prison officers playing the system and overtime and so on. I would also like to deal with the issue of sick leave, which is important. What impact does the physical environment of the job of prison officers, the conditions under which they work and stress have on sick leave? Could the witnesses please elaborate on that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
There is no doubt, as I stated earlier, but that the working environment of the prison is completely different to that of an ordinary office. To answer the Deputy's first question about prison officer sick leave, there is no doubt but that the huge pressure on prison officers during those early years - 2003 to 2005, inclusive - to do compelled overtime correlated hugely with the number of days of sick leave taken simply because of the pressure on people. They just could not keep going.
To answer the Deputy's second question, prison is a stressful environment. Suicides, self-harm, violence and all sorts of other pains go on within prisons each and every day, so the stress factor in prison is well known.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that. I refer Mr. Donnellan to chapter 2.33 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report in which sick leave in individual prisons is detailed. Would it be fair to say that sick leave is highest in the more difficult institutions?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Would that be a fair assessment?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What policies are in place to, perhaps, help prison officers better manage the difficult working environments in which they operate?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We have been taking a number of specific measures to assist our staff in dealing with the difficulties within the environment. We are rolling out a critical incident stress management policy which is in place in the Defence Forces and the fire brigade to help them deal with specific critical incidents, such as being injured, finding somebody self-harming or finding somebody who has committed suicide. We have introduced a free counselling service for our staff so they can now self-refer to that service and receive assistance in dealing with the stresses within the working environment. We are also rolling out some training with our psychology service on building resilience within our staff. This is certainly something we acknowledge and something we are specifically, under our new strategy, attempting to support our staff on.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Donnellan, Mr. Waters and their team for coming before the committee. Picking up from what Deputy Cullinane was saying, I was struck by what Mr. Donnellan said about prisons being the new lunatic asylums. It is difficult to hear that in terms of the morale of the prison staff. No more than a parent looking after a child - he or she must be in a good place in order to rear the child - prison staff are the keepers of the prisoners. It is extremely important - and I am glad to hear from Ms McCaffrey - that counselling services are available and that the Irish Prison Service has a plan in this regard. I have no doubt that the increase in the amount of sick leave taken in 2015 is directly as a result of the working environment of prison staff. It is a really onerous job. I do not practise criminal law but I have been in a few prisons to represent family law clients and have spoken to the staff there and know the pressures they are under. It is absolutely vital that the Department provide resources for prison staff in order to keep them going because we are all human beings. I know, even from dealing with the area of law with which I dealt - criminal law is a whole other ballgame - that the working environment in the latter is extremely stressful. This must be the paramount consideration. Are the services Ms McCaffrey outlined available now or is it a plan-----
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
They are available now. They were introduced last year. We have an employee assistance service and local officers in each of the prisons who work with our national service to provide dedicated support to the staff. I would like to acknowledge the work they do on the ground. These efforts are to supplement the efforts being made within the prisons already.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is very positive to hear. I think Mr. Donnellan or Mr. Waters mentioned recidivism - I can never pronounce that word - and the fact that it has seen a reduction to 45% and that the norm in the Nordic countries is 35%. These matters are all interlinked. If we are to go in the right direction, that is the way to do it. I am talking about the rehabilitation not just of prisoners, but also of the staff.
The story of the cash going missing in Limerick - the €10,000 - was like reading something out of a Flann O'Brien novel. The Comptroller and Auditor General does not reference what year this occurred. I know there were cash shortfalls back in 2009 and 2010, but the €10,000 in Limerick was a significant amount. I know from the Criminal Courts of Justice, CCJ, that if there is a bail officer, money is paid over and a receipt is given through a glass screen. Does Mr. Donnellan know if a receipt was given in this instance? Was an investigation carried out? It is a significant amount of money. Was it given in cash as opposed to a cheque?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is recent enough.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Yes. It was brought to our attention by the governor of Limerick Prison, who, doing the checks and balances, realised a sum of €10,000 was missing. An audit took place, a forensic audit was undertaken as well and the governor concluded that €10,000 cash was missing. It was impossible to say with certainty how the money disappeared or was misappropriated, but the governor felt it was bail money. It is not unusual for the Prison Service to receive bail money and it is not unusual for it to receive €10,000 in cash for bail money. We would much prefer not to receive bail money this way. We have moved almost to a cashless-----
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Was a receipt given?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Was it given to the registrar on the day?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr. Donnellan to forget what typically happens. In this particular instance, has an investigation been carried out?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is it also under investigation internally?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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There are money laundering issues as well.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, €10,000 is a significant amount of money.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I totally appreciate that, but this case is recent enough-----
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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-----and we have to ensure that it does not happen again.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Irish Prison Service has its own inquiry going on.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned non-compliance regarding national procurement guidelines. I am not sure which page of the report this is on, but if one looks at the table for 2012 to 2015, in 2012, for example, there were ten instances at a cost of €959,300, and if one jumps to 2015, there were 38 incidents at a cost of over €7.9 million. That is effectively €7 million more. Could Mr. Donnellan explain to the committee first of all what his understanding of non-compliance is and, second, why there is such a significant surge, for want of a better word, between those years? It is quite alarming. Why is that happening?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
These are what we call 40/02s. Anything over €25,000 must be tendered within our prison system. As the Deputy said, we had 38 cases in 2015, and they fall across three main areas. A total of 14 cases fell within the first area of proprietary goods. These were specialist goods for the prison system, such as locks, which are a legacy issues and must be replaced, fire alarm systems, etc. Proprietary goods accounted for 14 cases, or €2.4 million.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What does Mr. Donnellan think is the non-compliance that the Comptroller and Auditor General-----
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Why were they not tendered out to the market?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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They are made by an existing supplier.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Would it not be better-----
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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However, surely it is not just one company that makes locks. I am just trying to see it from the committee's perspective. I am not saying that it is incorrect. However, in terms of transparency, I am being objective about it.
If it is put out to tender, it is competitive and the Irish Prison Service can see what is the best value for money, because if it goes to the same supplier all the time, it does not know if it is getting value for money.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Locking is a very specialist issue in prisons. We put that out to tender for our new prison in Cork. We have a different locking arrangement there. As we build new prisons, we will put it out to tender, and if we get a more competitive price from somebody, we will. We are left with the legacy issues of replacing and fixing locks.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. Is Mr. Donnellan saying that is one area of non-compliance that the Comptroller and Auditor General is referring to?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What are the others? There are 38 for 2015.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
The others are contracts that were not awarded through the Office of Government Procurement, OGP. Seven had a value of €3.4 million. Six have been awarded and we are doing the specification for the seventh, which is bedding supplies. The six were prisoner clothing, waste management, which have been awarded-----
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What does Mr. Donnellan mean by awarded?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That has been rectified.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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There are 30 outstanding. We have dealt with eight. What are the other 30?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Donnellan is saying that the Irish Prison Service has taken measures to minimise the level of non-compliance.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Looking at it objectively, without apportioning blame, from 2012 to 2015 there was an increase of €7 million, which is substantial but the contracts have increased from ten to 38. There seem to have been no efforts to minimise it.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Looking at these figures, however-----
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is fine, but the witnesses need to keep that under review. I would not like to see it having gone up again when they return to the Committee on Public Accounts.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses know that but I just wanted to point it out. Mr. Waters mentioned a new blueprint for Mountjoy and a consultative plan. When is that happening? It is important that it is done as soon as possible.
Mr. Noel Waters:
This is likely to happen later this year. We have proposals to put to the Minister which will be the blueprint for the future of Mountjoy many years hence. Mountjoy is 170 years old. This may extend its life by perhaps another 100 years. Our model has changed quite dramatically. We believe that city centre prisons are the best match for our justice system.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Donnellan mentioned regional, smaller prisons. Why would we have those rather than the large prisons that are used in other countries?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
In Cork Prison, for example, the prisoners are from Cork, Kerry and Waterford. All the people from those counties want to be in Cork Prison. They do not want to be in the midlands or Dublin. People from the midland region want to be in Portlaoise. People from Limerick and Galway want to be in Limerick. They do not want to be displaced where their families have to travel in trains and buses. On the issue of breaking the family links, we know there is intergenerational offending when it comes to people in prisons, and fathers and sons will follow. We have to break that.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that, but Mr. Donnellan mentioned there was a link between that and needing more prison staff.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I know that and Mr. Donnellan said it is not all about cash either.
Mr. Noel Waters:
They have to be accommodated within appropriate security settings. It is not a case of a prisoner saying he would like to be in Cork ergo he will be sent to Cork in all circumstances. There is a wider issue regarding community for having prisons in localities. Several years ago we studied the big prisons and concluded that was not the way to go. We did not want to follow the US or UK model of prisons which in some cases house 2,000 or 3,000 people. The cost of running them would be very significant.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The disparity between staffing levels was mentioned earlier between 2.7 and Council of Europe, 1.2. There is a radical difference. I just want to tease that out.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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There has been no review of the SORT report since 2011. Why is that?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The capital expenditure was €223 million between 2002 and 2014 in respect of the Prison Service but the impact of the projects on staffing levels was not analysed.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That has to change.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is something to be mindful of in future.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I note that the witnesses did not anticipate efficiencies following capital projects and that was considered afterwards. The prison population will change now that people will not be imprisoned for non-payment of fines. Have the witnesses considered how that will change the dynamic or the staff-prisoner ratio?
Mr. Noel Waters:
We see the fines legislation as a big development for the Prison Service and the justice system. In 2016, approximately 8,300 people were committed to prison for non-payment of fines. The year before that the number was almost 10,000. Most of those are brought to the prison, turned around and let go. Mr. Donnellan can talk about that process. That is a huge administrative burden, apart from the message it sends to the system. Legislation was passed in 2015 which was operational in January 2016. We already see a small impact as the number has fallen from almost 10,000 to 8,300. The life cycle of a fine ordinarily is between one and three years. We expect the number to decrease further in the next two to three years. Under the old system people were fined €300 for not having a television licence or not taxing their cars and were given three months in prison in default. That has gone. The first option now is to pay instalments. Last year approximately 2,000 people opted to do that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How does that impact or has the Department anticipated how it will impact?
Given the range of options that the courts have, such as payment by instalment and attachment orders from salary, ultimately it will mean that save in the most exceptional circumstances and persistent offenders, courts will not be in a position to send people to prison for non-payment of fines. That figure of 8,000 to 8,500, will shrink radically in the next number of years.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I was trying to anticipate the nature of the prison population but most people would only spend a short period of time in it for the non-payment of fines. Does the Prison Service count those figures and include them in the recidivism figures?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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America has 25% of the world's prison population and 5% of the world's population.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Not a good comparator.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Our prison numbers overall are in a good zone. We exclude our fines cases, otherwise they would skew our figures completely. In a typical year, last year we would have nearly 18,000 committals, almost half of them are fines cases. The anticipated benefit when those cases come out of the system in the future will be the whole washing through of people who come into prison, who are brought from outlying places in Ireland to a prison to be processed in to and be taken out. Some of the fines would be very small, television licences, other small fines.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there an isolated cost associated with that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
It is simply pressure on the front gate and on our committal area. By and large the people who default on fines never get into the prison system. However in cases of people with revenue related fines or fines for selling cigarettes, which is a big business, they would be kept in prison. As the Secretary General said, this will reduce dramatically because there are about five stages to go through to get into prison under the new system. The major option is community service, so people can do community service in lieu of their fine.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I tabled some parliamentary questions on prison statics, the average number in daily custody; the number of staff; the number on maternity leave; the number on sick leave. I was provided with the figures and it separated out the number on maternity leave, which obviously has to be factored in if one is going to change the gender balance in any workplace. One can factor in a ratio for maternity leave. I wish to raise the number on long-term sick leave in a particular institution, Cloverhill Prison. I know the numbers can be quite small, however the numbers on long-term sick leave are fairly constant in one prison, whereas one would expect that number to rise and fall.
Is there a procedure to pick out figures in certain categories to find out what is happening. For example is the prison more dangerous, is there a management tool to target it or how does one deal with it?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We have an attendance management section in headquarters. We work on a constant ongoing basis with the management teams in our prisons. We have a monthly meeting with the HR governors and, twice a year, our attendance management team will go into the prison. We are looking at the profile of people who are absent on sick leave. Obviously in respect of some of those long-term sick leave cases, there are people who have very genuine serious illnesses and are absent from work. We are hoping we can support them. In terms of absenteeism, and the people who are in and out of sick leave, we manage the cases at prison level in consultation with the local team to ensure that we are on top of the issue.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I fully accept that it can happen and one would expect it in any large workforce, but it is the constant figure that jumps out.
Are there initiatives that one would like to implement? Reducing the level of recidivism will save not only money but reduce the crime rates and related behaviours. Are there any particular initiatives on the wish list that could achieve significant reductions in the prison population?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
What will give a dividend to society is the way we handle the point of introduction from prison to the community. We know that the first 24 hours of a former prisoner's life in the community after leaving prison is the most dangerous. It is the point when he or she falls back into reoffending. We must ensure that we put resources into not just finishing with people at the gate but supporting their journey through the gate and into the community. We would have a sizeable number of people in prison today who could be out of prison but we do not release them from prison because we would simply be releasing them to homelessness. We have teams of people that we fund who are helping to manage the transition. The top priority on our wish list is that people who come out of prison would have proper accommodation, would get their social welfare payment and their medical card quickly, so that they would be hooked back into society. Therefore they can be sustained through support. Female offenders have completely different needs from male offenders, and it is very much the case that we in the Prison Service with our probation colleagues need to provide step-down facilities for people coming out of prison rather than simply hoping that everything will work out when they leave prison. This is where we are putting the major emphasis from now on. That will reduce recidivism and will stop people spiralling back into prison.
Mr. Noel Waters:
May I add to that? The elimination of overcrowding and the annualised hours have greatly helped the Prison Service to have the resources available to do that type of work. Ten or 15 years ago that would have been unthinkable because the entire focus of the prison system was on managing as best it could the secure containment of large numbers of people in prison and with very little regard to dealing with other issues. The staff did what they had to do and primarily it was to ensure that people were kept in safe custody. There were a great many incapacities around the system but these are being addressed.
The idea that somebody would be released from prison into homelessness is automatically saying to him or her to go off and commit more crime. We simply have to break the cycle. We are involving other Departments across Government to see what we can do better around that type of system.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are there examples in other European countries that tie into what Mr. Waters has proposed?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
The best example is our example, the community return scheme. Many delegations from European countries have come to visit us. Where a prisoner has finished half his or her six year sentence, during which time he or she has been involved in education, work training, and he or she is drug free is really helping to reduce his or her recidivism. They can then be risk assessed by the probation service to serve the remaining period of their prison sentence in the community. We call it "community return". That has been really successful. More than 1,600 people have been released through community return with a compliance rate of about 89%. This initiative is settling people from prison back into the community. That is the major emphasis. There is no doubt that the European countries that we look towards are the Nordic countries, Norway and Sweden. We look particularly to Finland, a country very similar to ours, where they have made dramatic changes in their prison system in the past 15 years. They have much more low security and open type prisons. That is something we need to look at. Do we need everybody in medium to high security prisons? There are lots of lesson we can learn from our colleagues in Europe. Equally they learn from us because we are all learning together.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the regionalisation of prisons, did that change as a consequence of the economic crash? There was a proposal to put a very large prison out on the fringes of Dublin in Thornton Hall. What prompted that?
Mr. Noel Waters:
The committee has looked extensively at this issue. The motivation for building in Thornton Hall was that at that time Mountjoy Prison, which was the State's premier prison, was simply not fit for purpose.
It was subject to the most searing criticism by international groups and the European committee for the prevention of torture. Slopping out was endemic in the prison and it was vastly overcrowded. It was an appalling situation.
The decision was taken by the prison's interim board and supported by the then Government that a new prison would be built at Thornton. It would incorporate the entire Mountjoy complex, be on a greenfield site and Mountjoy would be sold off ultimately to pay for the development. The prison would also include facilities for the Central Mental Hospital and, at one stage, the then Forensic Science Laboratory. To pay for the site, the open prison at Shanganagh, surplus to requirements of the Prison Service, was sold. The cost of the site was €29 million and the sale of Shanganagh also made €29 million.
It is a long story; I am giving the potted version of it. Ultimately, due to the economic crash, the prison at Thornton did not proceed. It had become completely unaffordable from what it was set out as. In the meantime, we had to do something in respect of Mountjoy. Significant capital works were carried out there at greatly reduced costs which have turned it into a fit-for-purpose prison, unlike what it was 12 years ago.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The prisons at the Curragh and on Spike Island were closed. Was Shanganagh a prison?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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At that time, St. Patrick's Institution was closed as a juvenile detention centre. Where are those prisoners who would normally be in St. Patrick's Institution?
Mr. Noel Waters:
They are in Wheatfield, segregated from the adult population. Ultimately, they have to go to Oberstown, the juvenile detention centre run by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. They would be there normally but for the fact an incident happened there late last August which put plans completely on hold, pending the repair of the facility there.
The Government is committed that no juvenile should serve a prison sentence in an adult facility. We are working with our colleagues in the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to bring that forward as soon as possible. The legislation is in place. It is purely a matter of getting the facility in Oberstown back to operational capacity to ensure people who are sentenced can go there.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are there children in Wheatfield?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many are in Oberstown?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The detention of children used to be under the Prison Service's remit and the Department's Vote. Has it now migrated to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Essentially, the cost of St Patrick's Institution and the detention of juveniles is no longer borne by the Department. Has there been much of a saving in the Vote for the Department of Justice and Equality as a result?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Since the decision was made that no children under 18 would be in prison, we have only taken the 16 year olds out. We still have the 17 year olds. We have repurposed St. Patrick's Institution which is now part of Mountjoy. It is now full with adult prisoners. Then we have a purpose-designed facility in Wheatfield where we look after the nine 17 year olds we currently have who are due to leave it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is St. Patrick's assimilated into Mountjoy?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are the education costs for courses provided by education and training boards for prisons borne by the Department of Education and Skills or the Department of Justice and Equality?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
The education and training boards supply 220 full-time equivalent posts to the prison system. That money is part of the Vote for the Department of Education and Skills. We supplement that with materials and equipment. However, the Department of Education and Skills pays for the teachers. It is based on an adult education model.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What about the number of attacks on prison officers?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
The number of assaults on prison officers is always a worry for us. In 2015, we had 91 assaults, down slightly on the previous year. We have not got the figures for 2016 yet. We will have them by the end of February and I can send them to the committee when we have completed the reconciliation of them.
We can go through really bad patches with prison assaults. In 2015, we went through a really bad patch with a number of assaults which came together. It was down from 151 the previous year. In 2013, it was 147, and in 2012, it was 107. Assaults are a feature which we try to militate against. Violence in prisons the world over is becoming more of a feature, usually due to the unpredictability of drug issues and mental health issues. People are often not violent for the sake of being violent but because they have underlying issues.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If a prison officer suffers a serious injury in an attack, does he or she go out on sick leave? Does he or she continue on full pay for the duration? What happens to a prison officer injured in the course of his or her duties?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We have an injuries on duty scheme which is a Department of Public Expenditure and Reform scheme. Essentially, for an injury, an officer would be entitled to six months' full pay and six months' half pay. We got agreement from the Department to extend that scheme on foot of some of the serious assaults to which our staff are subjected. There is now a specific scheme for prison officers who are the subject of a serious physical assault by which they can avail of 12 months' full pay.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Haddington Road agreement reduced sick pay entitlements across the public service.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms McCaffery go through it slowly? Are sick leave and injury separate?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
They are separate entitlements. If someone is injured, ordinarily they are entitled to six months' full pay and six months' half pay. We have also agreed with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to introduce a specific scheme for prison officers who are seriously assaulted. They are entitled to 12 months' full pay.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that determined case by case?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I presume those officers have to be compensated.
Mr. Noel Waters:
In due course, there are two routes. The case can go to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal, where the level of awards is quite modest but they do get a pain and suffering element to it. Alternatively, they can go through the legal route through the State Claims Agency and get compensation through that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are they losing it at the far end? Can the State Claims Agency reduce any award they might get?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Do the prison officers or prisoners have access to hospitals? What arrangements are in place?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Both. We can deal with prisoners first.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are there specific arrangements with the hospitals?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
We have specific arrangements with Tallaght, the Mater and Portlaoise whereby we have a facility in the casualty area - a designated room - where we can take prisoners who are under escort, who would be handcuffed, high-profile and who we would not want to be sitting out in the public waiting area. We have specific protocols with those three hospitals in terms of parking and fast-tracking so that we can get people in and out quickly in a secure, controlled manner.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Donnellan will understand why I am asking my next question, coming as I do from Portlaoise. Is he aware of proposals by some quarters in the HSE to reduce the accident and emergency hours in Portlaoise hospital? Has the Prison Service discussed the implications of that with the HSE in terms of any incidents that might happen in the prison out-of-hours?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Donnellan to respond specifically on that issue. I do not believe there is a proposal to reduce the accident and emergency hours at the Mater Hospital or in Tallaght but it has been mentioned by the HSE with regard to Portlaoise. Has the Prison Service been in contact with the HSE about that?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
Yes, we have set out the position, in writing, in terms of the potential impact of such a decision on the Midlands Prison. Obviously, the hospital is directly across the road from the prison, so it is our preferred option. However, this is not a policy area that we can influence. We can only give the facts in terms of how many prisoners go over to the hospital on a daily basis, how many ambulances are called to the Midlands Prison on a weekly basis, how many emergencies or cardiac cases we have and so forth. We have passed on that information and the data-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I understand it is not a decision that Mr. Donnellan can make. On the same topic, if changes were made to the opening times, would the Prison Service have to put new arrangements in place to go to some other hospital, be it the Midland Regional Hospital at Tullamore, Tallaght hospital or some other hospital?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The prisoner could be taken to St. James's Hospital or-----
Mr. Noel Waters:
Clearly it would be an issue for us in respect of security. There are some very dangerous people in the Midlands Prison and it would not be ideal to have to transport them by road to a far distant hospital. That has a big cost implication for the Prison Service too. These are all issues that are in play but ultimately the HSE makes its own decisions. All we can do is give our input and make our case in respect of our services.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy that the Prison Service has passed on the data and statistics to the HSE but did it also make the point that there is an additional risk involved in having to transport prisoners to a hospital that is further away?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That point has been made to the HSE. Fine, that is good. I have one question which has not been posed by anyone else. Were there any break-outs during the year in question? Did any prisoners escape? I know that some people might not have come back after Christmas but-----
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
No, in Ireland we have very little absconding from our closed prisons. The most recent abscond we had was from the Grove Prison in Castlerea in 2013 when two guys hopped over the wall and legged it to London. They are both in Romania and there are warrants out for their arrest. We know where they are and they will eventually come back to serve the rest of their sentences. They have written to us to plead their case but the reality is that if someone absconds from an Irish prison, he or she must come back. They will be caught at the borders. They cannot go to England or anywhere else because their names and pictures will flash up.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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They cannot come back to serve their sentence?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I did not mean to get into any specific detail there. I have two final observations to make. We were supplied with a briefing note on the outturn for salaries, wages and allowances in 2014, which was €236 million, including a Supplementary Estimate of €5 million. The outturn in 2015 was €235 million. I see that the estimated outturn for 2016 is €230 million. It is good to see a reduction of €5 million and I ask the witnesses to explain that. I am surprised that they did not mention it already, which is why I am pointing it out. There is a drop of €5 million in the category in 2016 compared with 2015. Why?
Mr. Noel Waters:
We were operating in that period under what was an agreed employment control framework, ECF, number whereby we were paying for more staff than were actually required at the time. We were paying fewer staff in 2016 than in 2015. The staffing figure at the end of 2016 was 3,215, compared with 3,308 at the end of 2015. That gave rise to the differential in the figures.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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So the staff numbers went down in 2016.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are they still down?
Mr. Noel Waters:
They are, although we are actually recruiting at the moment. That point has not been made yet. There is a recruitment campaign under way at the moment through which we expect to hire 80 new prison staff, which will be the first recruitment into the prison system since 2008. That will obviously bring a welcome injection of new blood into the system. It is my understanding that there was a very significant level of interest, with almost 7,000 people applying. That will be whittled down to an initial 80, which will bring our staff numbers back up. As I said, numbers have fallen fairly dramatically since the high point back in 2007.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The service has started recruiting again, which is good. Finally, Mr. Donnellan mentioned step-down facilities and probation. I ask him to elaborate on that further. He also said that some people are not being released because the Prison Service would be releasing them into homelessness. We all know about people in homeless hostels and it is sad to think that some people are still in prison because they are homeless. Are there many in that category?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the witnesses to talk to us about that. It is a big social issue. I am sure the two Deputies here would agree. We can talk about recidivism, community service and so forth but there is not much point in releasing people if they end up back to square one.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
There is no doubt that the emphasis that has been put on homelessness, particularly in Dublin and Cork, has a positive impact in prison. If people out in the streets are being accommodated properly, which is beginning to happen, that will have a positive impact in that they will not be committing petty crimes and be remanded or committed to prison for short periods. That is the positive side of the issue. Anything that can happen positively in the community will have an impact in the prisons. Notwithstanding that, we always have a range of people in prison who have come from homelessness and who have no place to go. A lot of the people who have come into prison and have come off drugs really do not want to go back out to what they would call an "ordinary" hostel. They want to go back out to a place that is drug-free and where they are given support. That is where we are putting our new emphasis and focus. We are trying to ensure that we do not release people into homelessness any more. At any given time in the Dóchas Centre, the women's prison, there would be three or four women who could be in the community but for the fact that they do not have accommodation. They do not have a safe place to go and all the evidence is that they would be back in prison within 24 hours. In that context, we would prefer to keep them safe and plan their release rather than simply releasing them.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I would consider this a most important and new debate in the context of the Prison Service. Mr. Donnellan spoke about the Probation Service. How advanced is that? I ask the witnesses to provide a detailed note on it. Mr. Donnellan also mentioned step-down facilities. Such facilities are essential. Some communities might not want to hear this, but step-down services are fundamental-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any physical facilities-----
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
The Probation Service funds the PACE project, which provides step-down facilities for men but there are no step-down facilities for women. The Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, has been very exercised about this and we, in conjunction with the Probation Service, have invited expressions of interest to provide such facilities on a not-for-profit basis. We are looking for non-profit, voluntary organisations to provide high-quality, supervised accommodation for women. We are very hopeful that we can create ten spaces this year in the community for women in Dublin.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many spaces have been provided for men?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
There are up to 40 places in the PACE system, which takes many so-called "lifers", that is, people who were serving life sentences. We also work with Dublin City Council and the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive, both of which have been very responsive to our needs in terms of providing accommodation for people. They see that there is a benefit to society if ex-prisoners can be accommodated safely on their return to the community.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The prisoner population in the Dóchas Centre is approximately 100, which means that the overall prison population is about 97% male. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is 96% or 97%. I ask Mr. Donnellan to give us those figures again.
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
We have 3,715 people in prison today. We have 109 women in the Dóchas Centre. We have 32 women in the Limerick centre. As we indicated earlier, we are going to develop a brand new purpose-built 50 bed unit in Limerick because the Limerick unit is old and dilapidated. That will go to contract later this year and the building will start early next year. Again, it will be a regional response for women. The idea is that women from Limerick, Galway or Sligo will not have to come to the Dóchas Centre, which can be under pressure in terms of numbers.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Who funds the PACE organisation? Is it the Prison Service?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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You are the Secretary General, Mr. Waters. Will you get us a note on the PACE programme, since it relates more to the Probation Service?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How does the prison system know about accommodation? Do prisoners tell officers that they do not want to leave or they have nowhere to go? Is there a systematic check to determine whether they have a health card, whether they have applied for supplementary welfare allowance and so on? What happens?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What is an ISM officer?
Mr. Michael Donnellan:
They plan the programmes for prisoners in particular. They plan the release. The people who do not have those services are known to the Prison Service. The integrated sentence management officer can identify them and begin to put in place the supports. If a person is on methadone and is going to be released from prison, he is going to need a medical card and a script to collect methadone. Simple things like that are so important. We are now trying to introduce policies whereby we do not release people on Friday afternoon, Saturday or Sunday.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Why not at the weekend?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Mr. Waters. You are going to send us a note on the PACE programme directly from the Department.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I note Mr. Donnellan said a substantial number of people are in prison because they cannot get out. What is the figure, approximately?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand that. Galway is a disaster in that sense. We have a serious problem. I am thinking of a headline recently from a certain councillor of a certain party. The headline said that prisoners were being housed in preference to people on a waiting list. Has that been the experience of the Prison Service?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That was the screaming headline in a major newspaper.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the approximate figure?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the number several hundred?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Would the number run to several thousand?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Several hundred are in prison who should not be in prison. Is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many are in that should be released or could be released?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the Prison Service working with the local authorities?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the Prison Service working with Galway City Council? Is there any step-down facility in Galway?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is nothing. Is that the case?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What percentage of prisoners could be let out if the facilities were put in place? I am referring to people who should not be in prison. What is a realistic figure by which the prison population could be reduced? I asked Mr. Donnellan already and he referred to early intervention. That goes without saying and I agree with him. However, the Prison Service has ended up with this problem whereby people are in prison. Presumably, as Mr. Lonergan has pointed out repeatedly, they come from certain areas over and over. What can be done?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The number is approximately 600. Is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In the snapshot before me in October, the figure was 384.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is not 258.
Mr. Noel Waters:
It is important to point out that these are not unplanned temporary releases. They are planned. Programmes are in place. Back in the day where we had 1,000 people on temporary release, which was 21% of the prison population at the time, it was unplanned. Measures are in place to address the issues people have. They include the community return programme, community service system and the programmes of the Probation Service. It is not a case whereby the door is open, out they go and we say we do not want to see them again.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want to be clear. Approximately ten people on any given day could be released, but there is nowhere for them to go. Is that the case?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Several hundred come from homeless backgrounds. Is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My final question is on Thornton Hall. It was raised by my colleague and I had it marked. It is in the appropriation accounts.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is listed as a strategic State asset. Will Mr. Waters clarify the nature of this strategic State asset? How many acres are covered?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the access road completed?
Mr. Noel Waters:
It is completed with an underpass. That is why we refer to it as a strategic State asset. A working group is examining how we can get best value. It is within 20 minutes of the city centre of Dublin. It is just inside the M50. We have approached IDA Ireland. The company has signalled that it sees good value in the site in respect of potential foreign direct investment at some point.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When was the working group set up?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Since 2015, has an interim report on the 160 acre site been produced?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the framework for examining it? How long has it been sitting there, so to speak?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not from Dublin, but it is 160 acres. There is a major housing crisis and many other crises, yet we have a site of 160 acres. Is the site still valued at the historical value? The document before me suggests it continues to be valued at the historical value.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the figure €29 million?
Mr. Noel Waters:
Yes, we are not using the agricultural value of the land. I will address the point about housing. The issue has been examined in the context of the housing situation, in particular, whether there would be a value or a use for the site in that context. That is a matter for other people. One concern we have, taking a whole-of-Government approach, is that it is a large site. We have learned lessons in Ireland about planning major housing developments in one particular area.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I recoil against that. A site of 160 acres is sitting empty. It is no justification to say that major housing projects have not worked out. That is not an answer to a question about a site of 160 acres bought at €29 million. I have a reaction when I hear that. Major housing developments often got into trouble because of complete lack of input from local authorities, including those in Limerick, Dublin and Galway.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Central Mental Hospital was to be accommodated there as well. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Work is under way in Portrane. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that a HSE facility?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that service going to migrate from the Prison Service to the HSE?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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People are being sent there by the courts. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department does not yet have any agreement with the HSE. Is that the case?
Mr. Jimmy Martin:
The Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum is a HSE facility at the moment. It is for what is termed forensic mental health services. The facility takes people who are found not guilty by reason of insanity. It takes prisoners because it is secure. The facility also takes people from the civil mental health side as well. It is run by the HSE. We are the largest client, so to speak, but it is run by the HSE and it will continue to be run by the HSE.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The facility will continue in Portrane. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I had mistakenly believed it was for the Prison Service. I know that the facility in Dundrum is run by the HSE as we speak. However, the Department seems to know something about it.
There are people in the facility who were committed by the courts. Are there also people in there who came from prison?
Mr. Jimmy Martin:
Yes. There are three avenues into it, the two main ones being the Prison Service and the Courts Service. Prisoners who suffer with mental health issues would be referred by the prisons, admitted, treated and then returned to prison, while people who were found not guilty by reason of insanity or unfit to plead would be referred by the courts straight to the Central Mental Hospital. There would be also be a small number of cases of people with a very severe mental illness being transferred from a normal or non-forensic facility into the Central Mental Hospital.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is good to clarify that. We have now completed our examination and there are no further questions arising. I thank everyone for their co-operation. Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 21 - Prisons? Agreed. Is it agreed to dispose of the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report No. 93 on annualised hours in the prison service? Agreed. On behalf of the Committee of Public Accounts I thank all of our witnesses for their attendance here today.