Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the meeting is the consideration of a motion on the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2016. I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Michael Creed, and his officials.

The following motion was referred by Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann to the committee on 29 November 2016 for consideration:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Regulations in draft:Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2016,copies of which were laid in draft form before Dáil Éireann on 21 November 2016.

Members were circulated with a briefing note on the motion.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call the Minister to make his opening statement.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The most recent estimates available suggest that the horse and greyhound racing industries combined underpin in excess of 24,000 jobs and stimulate €1.6 billion in economic output. These industries receive financial support from the State through the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund, under section 12 of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001. My Department makes payments from the fund to Horse Racing Ireland and to Bord na gCon.

In the period 2001 to date, a total of €1.03 billion has been paid from the fund to the horse and greyhound racing industries in accordance with the provisions of the Act. The cumulative upper limit on payments from the fund, provided under the relevant regulations, has therefore been reached.

Exchequer funding provided from the fund is pivotal to the survival and continued development of the horse and greyhound racing industries. To give effect to the provisions of budget 2016, this cumulative upper limit must be increased by regulation.

The Estimates for my Department, passed by both Houses as part of budget 2017, include an allocation of €80 million for the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund. This will be distributed in accordance with section 12(6) of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001, with 80%, or €64 million, going to Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, and 20%, or €16 million, to Bord na gCon.

To allow my Department to provide the moneys allocated in budget 2017, it is necessary to comply with the technical requirement under section 12(13) of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act to increase the cumulative limit on the amount payable from the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund by €80 million to some €1.118 billion. This is achieved by way of the regulations submitted to the committee today. The aggregate limit on the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund has been increased in this manner in 2004 and every year from 2009 to 2015, inclusive.

It is estimated the Irish bloodstock industry provides 14,000 jobs and contributes almost €1.1 billion to the economy. In 2015, bloodstock export sales rose to €268 million in what was a remarkable year for the Irish bloodstock industry. The industry is also estimated to account for up to 80,000 tourists to Ireland each year. These are among the estimated 1 million plus people who attend horse races each year in this country.

Ireland holds a distinguished position in the thoroughbred racing world, being the biggest producer of thoroughbred foals in Europe, and is the fourth largest producer in the world. Approximately 40% of the European Union's output of thoroughbreds and 11% of the total worldwide are produced in Ireland.

The Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund has been pivotal in shaping the destiny of this dynamic industry. It has helped Ireland to become a world centre of excellence for horse racing and has allowed Horse Racing Ireland to undertake a capital investment programme that has underpinned growth in the sector.

The horse racing industry satisfies all the critical requirements for success in terms of employment and foreign direct investment and it is the type of export-oriented industry we need. The industry has been a flagship for this country and has had an immeasurable influence on Ireland's international reputation in recent years.

Government funding of this key industry is an excellent opportunity to yield a high return for its investment. Support for certain strategic industries is important to future economic growth and can provide widespread benefits for our society as well as for our economy.

The greyhound racing industry is also an important driver of employment and economic activity in both rural and urban areas. Bord na gCon estimates that the greyhound industry employs more than 10,300 people and contributes an estimated €500 million in economic output to local economies around tracks which have a wide geographic spread. Bord na gCon reports that since 2002, in excess of 10 million people have attended greyhound racing meetings.

The board itself employs more than 700 people including, both full and part-time, and has an annual turnover of approximately €40 million. Funds generated from racing are reinvested in the industry through contributions to prize money and grants to various bodies involved in the greyhound racing and breeding sector, as well as promotion of greyhound welfare and the regulation of the industry.

The challenge for the board is to encourage the development of a commercial greyhound racing and breeding industry built on a customer focused, high quality entertainment product, which meets the highest international standards of regulation.

The funding being provided to the greyhound racing sector helps sustain a long-standing tradition as the industry is part of the social fabric of our country. This funding underpins economic activity in what are in many instances less affluent regions of the country.

It has also contributed significantly to the improved facilities now available at greyhound tracks around Ireland. Greyhound racing is an activity that is inextricably linked to the farming community, and while it is undoubtedly part of the fabric of rural Ireland, it also enjoys a strong urban support base.

The overall objective of the Government is to ensure the horse and greyhound racing industries achieve their maximum potential and in so doing contribute to the economic and social development. Governments of all persuasions have acknowledged the importance of these industries and have supported them through legislation and policy initiatives over a long period. Without this support, these vital industries would simply not survive.

The advent of new technologies and business models has challenged Government to re-evaluate the funding mechanisms for the industry. As part of its overall commitment to the industry, the Government has addressed, through legislation, the anomaly whereby remote and online betting operators were outside the tax net. The Betting (Amendment) Act 2015 came into force on 15 April 2015.

The Act brings betting exchanges and Internet and mobile betting providers within the scope of the existing licensing regime, and extends the existing 1% turnover tax on land-based bookmakers’ activities to online and mobile bookmakers. The Act also means that a 15% commission tax for betting exchanges has also been implemented.

The Act also means that a 15% commission tax for betting exchanges has also been implemented. These measures have had a very positive affect on revenue streams with significant increases being realised. Betting tax has increased by €20 million in 2016 when compared to this time last year.

Both Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon have operated through challenging economic conditions over the past several years and my predecessor as Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, has had the activities and operation of both bodies reviewed.

The Horse Racing Ireland Act, which gives effect to the recommendations in the Indecon report, came into force on 8 February 2016 with certain sections commenced on 9 March 2016 and further sections due to commence in January 2017. The Act introduced a range of improvements in governance and accountability arrangements, many of which derive from recommendations made by Indecon International Economic Consultants following their review of the sector.

Indecon International Economic Consultants were also commissioned to conduct a review of certain matters relating to Bord na gCon in order to assess the suitability of the legal, governance and regulatory framework supporting the greyhound industry and to identify opportunities to maximise its commercial income. In that regard, I will shortly bring forward the heads of a greyhound industry Bill to ensure the principles of good governance and regulation are clearly and unambiguously set down in primary legislation. In broad terms the Bill seeks to implement the deficiencies in the existing legislation as identified in a report authored by this committee in January 2016, and in both the Indecon and Morris reports. The Bill addresses the governance of Bord na gCon, strengthens regulatory controls in the industry, modernises sanctions and improves integrity with a view to building a reputation for exceptional regulation in the sector. The Bill will strengthen the Irish greyhound industry, enable it to deal with the existing challenges and maximise its future potential. I expect this committee will have a significant role to play through the pre-legislative scrutiny process and I look forward to engaging with members in that regard.

Without doubt, Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon face significant challenges as they work to grow and develop the horse and greyhound industries in an extremely competitive market segment. I am, nonetheless, confident that these industries have tremendous growth potential with sporting, leisure, tourism and cultural appeal across a wide demographic, both national and international. The thoroughbred horse industry is a major driver in the economy and both industries breathe life and jobs into their respective communities from the grass roots up.

I very much appreciate the contribution the members of this committee have made to the debate on the future of these critically important industries. I believe the €80 million allocation is vital to help secure rural jobs and sustain communities. Many parts of rural Ireland face ongoing challenges in terms of declining populations, a lack of jobs, a shortage of enterprise and poor infrastructure. The Government plays an important role in considering policy and providing an input into legislation to counter these problems and nurture all potential growth. I am confident that it is the goal of all of us here to realise fully the contribution of these sectors to the Irish economy, to employment and to the social and cultural fabric of this country. The degree of success of these initiatives is dependent on the hugely important contribution made by the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund.

A copy of the draft regulation has been circulated to the members of the joint committee. Section 12(13) of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001 provides that a draft of these regulations be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and a resolution approving the draft be passed by each House before the regulations are made by the Minister. Accordingly, I ask members for their support to ensure that Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon receive the funding provided for in budget 2017 and that the very important role of these industries, and the economic activity generated by them, are sustained into the future. I commend the motion to the committee and I look forward to discussing any matters arising.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the broadening of the tax base to include remote and online betting. The latter sectors had to contribute to the greyhound and horse racing industries. Do we have any idea of how much betting remains outside the tax net? The number of track bookmakers has dwindled greatly and they are under much financial pressure. We have a tax regime in place that, in effect, takes a one-size-fits-all approach. On-track bookmakers are often small independent operators who do not have a large turnover and they are being taxed at the same rate as the major multinational companies such as Ladbrokes, Boylesports and others. We must recognise the unique nature of track bookmaking and what they bring to horse and greyhound race meetings and also the costs they incur attending race meetings.

Deputy Michael McGrath devised an amendment, which has been tabled to the Finance Bill in the Seanad, to address what track bookmakers consider are anomalies given that they are treated the same as major multinational betting companies. There must be some recognition of their unique contribution to the industry and their small turnover. People do online betting now and on-course turnover has dropped significantly. There must be some recognition of the difficulties that track bookmakers face. They are different to multinational companies that are dealing in millions of euro. Broadening the tax base was definitely the way forward but there must be some recognition of the situation. The current approach to the taxation of the industry will not work if we wish to preserve track bookmakers.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for his comments. This situation goes back quite a while and our swords have crossed a number of times on the issue. I still have serious concerns with the amount of money Horse Racing Ireland, in particular, receives from the taxpayer and how it is being used. I understand the number of owners in the horse racing industry in Ireland has dropped by almost 50% in recent years, which has led to a concentration of ownership among the wealthy elite at the top while smaller owners are being pushed out. I am not aware if Horse Racing Ireland has a scheme in place to support small owners and breeders to ensure they stay in the industry and can develop and prosper.

Irish Thoroughbred Marketing is a subsidiary of Horse Racing Ireland. The work it does to bring in new buyers is focused on Coolmore and Goffs and, again, that is for the people at the very top end rather than those at the bottom. Significant questions must be asked about all of that and about where the money is being spent, given the amount of public money that is used for prize money at big races. That is unacceptable when one looks at the situation in other sectors around the country. It is simply wrong.

The board of Horse Racing Ireland appeared before the committee and most members would agree that they were very scant in terms of answering hard questions. They did not answer many of the questions. Further questions have been put to the board since then and information has been sought but it has not been forthcoming to an acceptable degree. There are still many questions to be answered. The CEO of Horse Racing Ireland was to come before the committee to answer questions but there has not been any sign of him. I am seriously concerned about his role in getting himself reappointed to that position. At this point, given the amount of money we are talking about, those questions simply must be answered before we can proceed.

Are the boards of all State bodies, be it Bord na gCon or Horse Racing Ireland, subject to the Protected Disclosures Act? If they feel things are happening with how business is conducted, can they forward the information to you, Chairman, or to someone else to ensure matters are corrected? There are still many issues, in particular relating to the horse racing industry - people also have questions about how Bord na gCon is run - that must be addressed. I do not think they have been dealt with appropriately. We have a long way to go before we are in a position to sanction the expenditure of €80 million on such organisations. It is a lot of money.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Before I move on to Deputy Pringle I wish to clarify that we invited the chief executive of HRI to come before the committee in the new year and I expect that will happen.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I have two questions for the Minister. We are talking about the allocation of €80 million to Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon. In his opening statement the Minister said HRI contributes €1.6 billion to the economy and that Bord na gCon is responsible for an economic output of €500 million.

He went on to say that "these vital industries would simply not survive" without Government support. I remind the committee that the €80 million being provided represents just 5% of these industries' total contribution to the economy. At what point will these industries become self-sustaining? When will they be able to continue to operate without this annual funding of €80 million? Is that an aim of the Government? What is its aim in allocating these moneys each year? Perhaps the Minister will square the difference between what he said about the contribution of these industries to the economy and his statement that they need this money to survive. Will he explain that further?

Horse Racing Ireland, which will get €64 million under this proposal, seems to be opposed to the development of harness racing. Surely we should tap into the potential of this form of racing as a means of developing the industry as a whole. How can the opposition to harness racing be squared with the development of horse racing? What is the Department's view on this aspect of the matter?

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I invite the Minister to respond to Deputies Cahill, Kenny and Pringle.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the three Deputies for their questions. Deputy Cahill asked about the broadening of the tax base in the context of developments in online betting. By the end of this month, we will have witnessed the impact of the first full calendar year of the new system which was introduced in mid-2015. If I am not mistaken, the Department of Finance has indicated that it intends to observe the performance of the sector under the new regime when it has an opportune window to do so. It is open to considering the appropriate next steps in that context. I appreciate that there are many views on the matter. I share Deputy Cahill's view that on-course bookmakers are part of our horse and greyhound racing traditions. The demise of the on-course bookmaker would remove much of the colour, entertainment and value from the experience of attending horse and greyhound racing fixtures. I suggest that the boards of Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon should reflect on how they might incentivise the continued participation of bookmakers in on-course activity.

I should mention that on-course bookmakers are also of value from the perspective of providing competitive leverage to punters who might be interested in other forms of betting. I suppose the march of technology is inexorable. There is ample documentary evidence of the rampant growth of online betting as the choice of many punters. I share Deputy Cahill's view that on-track bookmakers bring something unique to the table. I would like to see how Bord na gCon and Horse Racing Ireland might be able to use their respective roles to facilitate such activity. The Department of Finance could also look at this area in the context of tax legislation.

I will try to deal in no particular order with the many issues raised by Deputy Martin Kenny. Bord na gCon and Horse Racing Ireland both have provisions in place under the protected disclosures arrangements. Anybody who feels he or she has something to disclose can do so within that protected legal framework. That is as it should be. We all share the objective of having an industry that works well and is properly regulated, and in which people feel they can speak freely. That is important.

The inference from Deputy Kenny's comments about the ownership of horses is that it is becoming the pursuit of the elite. It is inevitable as we emerge from a difficult economic period that a number of owners will have fallen out of the system. I am aware that Horse Racing Ireland and the industry generally are anxious to address this matter. Not long after I was appointed Minister, I met a group of people who are involved in the running of point-to-point races, including community organisers, handlers, owners and trainers. We all discussed this issue in the same room. Many sole owners and syndicates opted out of horse ownership when people's discretionary expenditure fell by the wayside during the economic downturn. I am pleased to report that the most recent trends for 2016 indicate that things are picking up. I do not want to over-egg the figures in these early days. The number of horses in training has increased by 4.5%, the number of active owners has increased by 1%, the number of new owners has increased by 11% and attendances at race meetings have increased by 1%. A number of other indicators are moving in the right direction.

It is important to acknowledge this because the more broadly based the industry is, the better. There are farmers in every county who are involved in breeding horses. It is a broadly based rural enterprise. We read and hear a great deal about the cream of the crop who give us our international reputation as a country that does this business exceptionally well. Their success is based on the industry as a whole having the very solid foundation that is put in place by point-to-point owners, trainers and organisers. The work done by such people feeds into the success of people like Aidan O'Brien and Willie Mullins, who represent us with distinction on international stages. The challenge is to make sure we keep the foundations of the industry in solid health. I know from my engagement with people in the industry that they are extremely concerned about this.

Deputy Kenny suggested that certain issues in Bord na gCon need to be, as he put it, "dealt with". The Department has acknowledged the report previously published by this committee, the Morris report and the Indecon report I mentioned in my opening remarks. As a consequence of all these reports, I am committed to introducing legislation in this area at the earliest possible date. I imagine that the heads of the Bill will not now be published before the end of this year. I expect that very early in the new year, we will publish legislation dealing with a range of the issues in the industry that have given rise to concern and comment in the public domain. We will ensure the legislative framework for the industry is fit for purpose for the years ahead. We will address the issues raised in this committee's report, the Indecon report and the Morris report. It is important for members of this committee to have an opportunity to make an input into the collective process of ensuring the best possible legal framework is put in place for the industry. Participation in this industry by owners and trainers brings colour to life in rural Ireland. There are greyhound tracks dotted all over the country, from Mullingar to Youghal and many points in between. It has a certain appeal and it makes a significant financial input. That is why we need to put it on a solid footing, legislatively and otherwise, for the future.

Deputy Pringle asked whether these industries should be self-financing. He questioned the need to provide State funding of €80 million to support horse and dog racing. I remind him that the ambition of the industry is to grow. I read in a document that the horse racing side of this industry is worth more than €1 billion. State assistance will be required if the ambition of doubling that figure over the coming years is to be achieved. The State is putting funding into the programme of capital investment in racecourses, for example. I was fortunate enough to be in Listowel, which is in Deputy Ferris's constituency, earlier this year to celebrate an investment that is being made through Horse Racing Ireland to redevelop the facilities and thereby enhance the experience of punters when they go to Listowel Races. On the other side of that capital development, a flagship project at the Curragh has secured planning and is going through capital evaluation now. If I recall correctly, this €60 million project is funded by the State, Horse Racing Ireland, the Turf Club and outside funding.

It is important, in an industry in which we are a global leader, to have facilities that can showcase the industry in its best light. Therefore, the Curragh is important. So too are Listowel, Ballinrobe, Thurles and Tramore. It is important the facilities are up to scratch and that there is a significant capital investment programme that the State is involved in providing funding for. That is why I think the industry will do a lot in terms of foreign earnings and job creation opportunities. The State can help. The State does not turn its back on any other sector that has growth potential. It does not say that because a sector has an ambition to grow it should do it all itself. If we can assist and accelerate growth that brings a dividend to all of us in terms of tax revenues and employment creation, we will. That is why it is appropriate for the State to invest. It is an industry that is very broadly spread. It is by and large a rurally based industry.

The Deputy also mentioned the issue of harness racing. It was an issue Deputy Ferris raised 12 months ago in the context of the industry. It is not particularly germane to HRI. The Irish Harness Racing Association, as I understand it, is affiliated to Horse Sport Ireland. We have engaged with it in recent times. We provided €24,000 for a stud book related project. We assisted with €22,000 for an animal welfare project. There is also some funding received under the Leader programme for assistance with the racetrack in Portmarnock. More recently, my Department has engaged Indecon consultants to look at the financial potential of that sector as a bedrock on which to establish whatever funding requirements we might provide to that sector in the future. It is not that we have turned our back on any particular sector, and certainly a lot has happened since we engaged here last year. It is hoped the consultants who are now engaged will provide us with the rationale to exploit the potential of the sector further.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Surely the aim of the horse and greyhound industries is to reach a position where they are self-financing. Many of the stakeholders and sectoral players will indicate that as their objective. The State supported them through very difficult times when it had very little money to allocate to other very worthy projects and ventures in other areas.

If one speaks to somebody dealing with the bookmaking industry, they see lots of potential for that to be achieved. Deputy Cahill is right, it is not only the on-course bookmakers who have an essential role to play. They still take €3 or €5 bets whereas all those online boys want bigger bets. We have to protect the ordinary people who might just make the odd bet. The bookmakers in the streets and villages of this country are being wiped out. There are no bookmakers now in rural Ireland. They are being wiped out. They are very concerned that there should be a cut-off turnover point of about €2 million. How could one classify a little bookmaker in my village, which has a population of about 350 or 400 people, who disappeared as a result of economic circumstances, the same way as a high street bookmaker with a very high profile that is part of a chain of 60 or 70 bookmakers? It is important to differentiate those. Funnily enough, there are a few local jobs available in some of those small bookmakers. What happens is, as with everything in this country, we do not regulate for years and then when we do, it is overly prescriptive. We wipe everyone out with the big brush that rolls in front of us. That is important. There has to be a differentiation between the type of bookmaker involved. That has been made abundantly clear.

The Morris report is available and has raised some serious issues. We cannot put it under the carpet. If one speaks to people in the greyhound industry, they will say that in another couple of years, there will be no greyhound industry. That is what they will say. The owners are disappearing and there are huge questions about the integrity of the industry. It is a major issue. We can beat around the bush all we likes and dive for cover, but that is the big issue. That is glaring in the report and it has to be tackled.

We will be watching carefully the heads of the greyhound Bill that will be coming forward. It should tackle this once and for all. There has to be zero tolerance. There cannot be any nonsense of accepting little bits. There has to be zero tolerance in terms of integrity in order that every race is run true to form with no external influences on the performance of horses, dogs or anything else in the industry. That goes right through to the breeding. It has to be protected in an overarching way. That will give great confidence right across the board. The governance area also has to be tightened up.

Governance is important because we are giving huge sums of extremely scarce State money. We still cannot get a lot of resources that are required in other areas which have huge human costs and impact. Some people tell me that the estimate that 10,000 people are employed in the industry is such a gross over-estimation, it is almost laughable. I do not know. I know plenty about the point-to-point scene but I do not know about dogs, except that people are foolish enough to bet a few bob and in less than 30 seconds they lose all their money. That is all I know, but, stupidly, I have probably done it. That happens.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Deputy did not lose it all.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I lost enough. In any event, we have to know how many if we are giving money to the industry. I am not averse to helping out industries, because I know how important they are in rural areas. They are a recreational outlet and have an income generation capacity for those people, but we have to know how many people are actually in the industry. We cannot just say what we think it employs. That will not get us anywhere because value for money is important.

That turns me back to the Indecon report on the horse racing industry and HRI. I am looking forward to it preparing its value for money audit which it promised us. That should be top of its agenda and board meetings. I anticipate that it is. If it is not, the organisation should question that because it has been demanded by the Minister through his officials and through us in a very concerted and unanimous way, so it should be forthcoming. I hope that lessons have been learned in terms of governance. One would only have to be a first year law student, not somebody with almost three decades at the law, to realise why the appointment of the chief executive went the way it did. I understood that very well. One could not recoil from that, unless one wanted a big legal action. I understand it. The real issue is that one cannot unscramble the egg and go back and cry over the spilled milk. What we have to do now is make sure that lessons have been learned with regard to all of those semi-State and State organisations. That is the issue I want to see addressed. I will not re-run that horse because it is long gone past the post. As Deputy Kenny, I spent hours on the new Act.

I am not convinced that people like the stable hands are getting a fair cut. It is clear when one sees what happened at a recent meeting. I argue they should have been included on sub-boards. They are the people we see leading around horses. They could leave a place at 6 o'clock in the morning to get to somewhere else and they are there all day. They are great workers and a great face for the industry. I salute them. It is important we ensure they get properly remunerated.

If it is felt they are not getting a fair cut, I will not be averse to tabling amendments, seeking the support of my colleagues to ensure that everything works out in that regard.

Value for money will be important. I do not think anything will pass on a nod. I understand that we are allocating €80 million, which is a great deal of money and people will want to see benefits from it. I do not want HRI to set off on a run. HRI always picks the easy targets when it is looking for money. How could one justify targeting the owners who had paid for their colours, seeking to charge them on 1 January of the following year to renew the colours? If an owner had a trainer acting as an agent in the first year, in the following year, year two, the owner had to pay more money so that the agent would continue acting for him or her. Once HRI got one cut of money from the owners, it should move on and leave those who paid alone. HRI always targeted the easy pickings rather than going to big wheels. Unfortunately, the increases in the cost of training and everything else cumulatively led to people leaving the syndicates. I was one of them myself. One had to clear out because one formed the impression that one was at the end of the food chain and did not matter. That is why I used to kick up a bit of a row because I was representing a great many people like myself who were foolish enough to get involved in syndicates, but without the like of us, the syndicate does not have the members. The syndicates only have the big knives who arrive in and swallow it up.

I am delighted with the developments in the Curragh, but one needs developments in Kilbeggan, Roscommon, Ballinrobe, Thurles and Clonmel. I go down to Clonmel. The money has to be spent in the real places. It is great to have flagship projects and to bring in all the boys and the great people - the multimillionaires and perhaps billionaires. I want to ensure that a few bob goes to the fellow with a family who is surviving on €300 to €400 a week, who is trying to breed the odd horse and get a winner out of it. If I think the money is going to that segment of the industry, I have no problem supporting any of the Estimate in that regard.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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For the information of members, we will have pre-legislative scrutiny on the greyhound Bill after Christmas, so we will have an opportunity to engage with all the stakeholders involved. I think we will have a robust discussion on that at that stage.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation and contributions. I am quite conscious of the value that small breeders bring to rural communities and what the greyhound industry means to rural Ireland. I live in an area where every second person I know in the agriculture and farming sector in parts of North Kerry would also be breeding greyhounds, most of them do it at a loss. They do it because it is a way of life and is part of their tradition and culture. I would argue that they have maintained that industry for the common good. Obviously there is always the expectation that one will breed a derby winner or something like that with everything going right.

I agree entirely with Deputy Penrose when he spoke about integrity. I am not satisfied with the integrity of some of the carry on in the industry. I look forward to debating the proposed legislation on it. What sticks in my craw is that €80 million, of which €64 million goes to Horse Racing Ireland and €16 million goes to the more depressed side, the greyhound sector.

There are many people in the community listening to the contributions of members who take a very poor view of sections within the horse-racing sector. Some major trainers and horse owners pay no tax in the country. Coolmore Stud was exempt from stallion fees tax, but earning millions from stud fees. This concession was given to them by Charlie Haughey.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, stick to the specifics of the motion.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, the law on stallion tax has been changed for a number of years.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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That is in people's memory

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are sticking to the subject of the motion.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I am sticking to the motion. I would appreciate if I was not interrupted.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I wanted to give the Deputy guidance in that regard.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Martin Kenny made a very valuable contribution on the difficulties that arise from a lack of co-operation. He referred to the lack of response to the questions that were put to Horse Racing Ireland when its representatives appeared before the committee in the recent past. Some of the questions remain still to be answered.

I have raised the issue of harness racing and how the association were prevented from having competitions for want of a better word. Evidence was produced before the committee in regard to access to a track in Dundalk. Through the intervention of the Minister, that issue was addressed and the meetings came about. I welcome the fact that funding is being made available at last to advance this sector

I would have reservation and I had serious reservations in the past when I was on the committee in the past, but I have always voted for it. I voted for it in the interests of the common good, in order to protect the person who is involved in a small way and is trying to keep a little industry going in rural Ireland. My advice to the committee is to do that, but there is a great deal of cleaning-up to be done and the integrity of the sector has to be restored. This cannot go on forever.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy McConalogue. My apologies, I missed the Deputy earlier.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman. I have a number of points.

First, the allocation of €80 million on an annual basis to the horse and greyhound sector is significant. I acknowledge the role that horse racing and the greyhound industries play in rural Ireland and the way the sector has been built up. State funding and support from the State has played an important role and it is important that we work to protect and enhance the development of both sectors.

It was particularly disappointing to see the committee had to involve itself in the operations of the reappointment of the chief executive of Horse Racing Ireland. I think it is important that lessons are learned. In respect of the annual allocating of funding, there is obviously an obligation to come before the committee and to seek the approval of the Oireachtas for the allocation of funds every year, but as part of that do the board of Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon present a plan in their report to the Minister at the outset of the year? I know there is a strategic plan but considering the Oireachtas is asked to support the allocation of funding on an annual basis, I think it would be appropriate that they present their projections for the year ahead, an update from both boards in respect of how the funding will be used and how it is helping them meet their objectives and the development of both the horse racing and the greyhound industries.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputies Penrose, Ferris and McConalogue for their questions. I will deal with whether the industry should be self-financing. I acknowledge that €80 million is a great deal of money. I think we forget the circular economy. The income from the 1% betting levy to October 2016, a period of ten months, is €50 million.

This is a lot of money to be handing over. With regard to the ambition of the industry to grow, the ongoing capital investment funded by HRI and how the business is integrated in the rural economy, the State probably gets a fair return from the investment it makes and it enables the industry to accelerate the investment and development identified for the horse racing and greyhound industries.

We have had ample reports, including from the committee and the Morris and Indecon reports, to inform us on how best to proceed with the greyhound industry and to ensure integrity is put up in lights. This is an objective of the Department, and anybody with whom I have spoken in the industry and committee members all share this objective. There is an outline in particular in the Morris report of the issues that need to be addressed with regard to governance, integrity, anti-doping and control committees having adequate powers with regard to the sanctions that would apply to anybody found to be offside. My view is this is an industry of significant economic activity and anybody who puts its future in jeopardy should be dealt with in a very firm way. We will bring forward heads of a Bill to the committee early in the new year, and I hope we have ample input from all quarters to ensure we equip the industry with the best possible legislative framework to deal with governance, integrity, medical control issues and anti-doping. Deputy Ferris referred to his neighbours in north Kerry who stick with the industry notwithstanding all of the allegations. They should be able to live the dream safe in the knowledge that at least it is a level playing pitch or level track. This is what all of us want. I am sure the legislation will address all of these issues.

The Morris report is spoken about so often one would think it has been around for a long time but it is not. It was presented to Bord na gCon in July. I do not have the date of publication. We are not hanging around. It contains issues which need to be addressed. There will be no brief for anybody who resists placing integrity at the heart of the industry and ensuring anybody who is a shareholder or stakeholder in the industry can invest in it safe in the knowledge it is fair, above board and transparent. This is what all of us aspire to.

To respond to the point raised by Deputy Penrose regarding on employees in the industry, such as stable hands and jockeys having a say, under the legislation introduced in 2015 and finished in January 2016, there is provision for the board to have the voice of all of the people to be represented. Their unions also have potential for representation. The Horse Racing Ireland Act 2016 provides for the establishment of a new industry services committee comprising a chairman and four members, including representatives of jockeys, qualified riders, employees of the industry other than jockeys and stable staff. Its chairman will be selected by the members of the committee. I understand HRI is in the process of establishing the committee and is in consultation with Mandate and SIPTU among others. This is an important development. We must also acknowledge recent initiatives by HRI in putting in place a proper career structure and educational opportunities for people who go into the industry. Many people go into the industry without having many educational qualifications under their belt. Some leave school early. It is important they are given an opportunity for continuous education and professional development in the industry. HRI has recently made initiatives in this area.

I am aware that ownership is an issue. The statistics are beginning to turn with regard to increased participation of syndicates. Part of the reason for this is to do with the fact the costs to HRI are reducing. It is still an expensive sport, which is why syndicates are an attractive way of getting into it without anybody having to bear an excessive level of the costs. I understand HRI's own costs to owners have dropped by 30% in recent times. We have come through a very difficult time and the industry and governance bodies probably made decisions based on short-term financial needs rather than strategically being able to look at the long term. We are now in a situation where we have a little more light within which to operate. Strategically informed decisions are being made and this is reflected in the increased level of ownership.

With regard to harness racing, a point was made about the track in Dundalk. There is now an agreement between the Irish Harness Racing Association and HRI for access to the track on five occasions. This is progress. We await the outcome of the Indecon report, which will give us, I hope, a rationale or strategic basis on which to adjudicate whether it is a sector that merits further investment and has further potential. It has an international dimension. I recall at a child sulky races at Ballingeary show, which is a different version. In west Cork there are road races. There is potential to explore and see what rationale there might be for further investments. This is something to which we are open to, although it is not a HRI affiliate. It is affiliated to Horse Sport Ireland, which is a separate agency.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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It took ministerial intervention at this committee to get HRI to provide access to Dundalk track for harness races. This left a very bad taste in the mouths of many people.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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If mistakes were made in the past, as long as collectively we all learn from them, including those in the room and those outside it, it is a good thing. I do not want to say any more about it. We now have a situation where they have access to a track and let us see what comes out of the Indecon report.

Deputy McConalogue referenced the €80 million, which is certainly a lot of money and there are competing demands for that type of money. There is a five-year strategic plan for HRI and we receive its annual report. I do not see anything wrong with the suggestion that there should be engagement with the board on a structured basis. Perhaps the committee and the Department can take this up.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Some sectors are lobbying to increase the betting tax as it would help to make the industry more self-sufficient. People can use their credit cards to bet online. In effect, this means they are borrowing to bet, including those with an addiction. We should look at this and stop it. People do not walk into betting shops and use their credit cards but they can do it online. It is a step in the wrong direction. While I know it is not the Minister's direct responsibility, it is something that needs to be looked at.

With regard to the issue raised about Bord na gCon and the integrity of the greyhound industry, this is an issue that needs to be examined. Everywhere I go when I speak to people they throw their eyes up to heaven. We had the recent case of the abducted dog. This all leads to the notion that shenanigans are going on. What are the Minister's comments on this? Can he give us any concrete assurance this will be tackled? I know people engaged in the industry who look after the dog tracks. They tell me many of the dog tracks are falling into disrepair bit by bit because fewer and fewer people go. The main reason for this is the impression that is created and which is not without foundation.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As part of the committee's brief we will engage with stakeholders involved in the greyhound industry in pre-legislative scrutiny.

Delegates from Horse Racing Ireland have appeared before the committee to discuss these matters and we have invited them to return for a further meeting. We will, as part of our brief, have an ongoing engagement with the two sectors throughout the lifetime of the Dáil. The committee will have an opportunity to feed into whatever process develops.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Kenny observed that currently there is a lot of focus in all forms of media on high-profile victims of gambling addiction, the ease of online gambling and so on. It is a societal issue which needs to be reflected on at Government level. It does not fall specifically within the remit of my Department but is something we all wish to tackle. The online industry has a role to play, including by finding ways to identify where individuals are gambling excessively. There are best practices that can be applied in this regard and the industry must take the lead in the matter. The reality, however, is that we cannot halt the advance of technologies. Online media are now the platform of preference for most people when it comes to betting, as reflected in the yield from the levy. There are arguments for increasing the levy from 1% to 2% or higher. On the other hand, there is the argument that the dividend from online gambling should be made more widely available to other beneficiaries. That is a debate for another occasion. A revenue stream from the online platform is now in place and I have no doubt it will continue to grow. In terms of the taxation changes that might be envisaged, that is an issue for the Minister for Finance in the first instance.

Reference was made to integrity, which is an objective we all share. We now have sufficient reports from consultants and so on, together with the wisdom of this committee, numerous public commentators and people who have spoken to the committee and to me. It is time now to seek to address these issues. Legislation can only go so far but it is necessary, nevertheless, to ensure Bord na gCon is equipped with all the necessary legislative tools. That is the aim of the Bill we intend to bring forward.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Minister. That concludes our consideration of the motion. I thank the Minister and his officials for briefing the committee on the matter.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, will there be further debate on the motion in the Dáil?

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is not a matter for the committee. Once we have completed our consideration of the motion, it is then a matter for the Business Committee to decide how it is dealt with in the House. We will have further consideration of these matters when we engage in pre-legislative scrutiny in the new year.