Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 13 October 2016

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Skills

Higher Education Grants: Wake Up SUSI

9:00 am

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Pierce Connolly, chairman of Wake Up SUSI and president of Griffith College students' union and Ms Alisha Houlihan and Ms Suzanne Quinn, students, Griffith College; Ms Emma O'Sullivan president, Dublin Business School Students' Union and Mr. James Roberts, student; and Mr. Martin Byrne, student, Irish Colleges of Humanities and Applied Sciences, Limerick, who are here today to discuss the non-payment of maintenance grants to students attending private higher education colleges. I also welcome the students in the Visitors Gallery.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise the witnesses that their opening statements will be published on the committee's website this afternoon.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Ms Alisha Houlihan to make her opening statement. I understand that following her statement, the other students will make a one-minute statement each. Members will have an opportunity after that to ask questions.

Ms Alisha Houlihan:

Good morning members, I come from Kiltimagh, County Mayo. I come from a single parent family and I am a full-time second year journalism and visual media scholarship student at Griffith College Dublin. I thank the joint committee for the kind invitation to attending this hearing.

First, we welcome the statement of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton, that he proposes to reintroduce grants for part-time post-graduate students but he has forgotten us. We are Wake Up SUSI. We represent about 200 students, eligible for SUSI funding, who applied via the CAO for a full-time QQI validated degree at State recognised institutions that award up to masters level 9 on the NFQ. Our students, from low-income and single parent families, want the same State funding as other third level students attending similar QQI approved institutions. We are not the so-called privileged students that attend private colleges.

In the past 12 months, we have met SUSI, the HEA, civil servants from the Departments of Education and Skills and Public Expenditure and Reform and over 30 members of the Seanad and Dáil, some of whom kindly tabled parliamentary questions on our behalf. The recently published Cassells report on the funding of higher education recommends that low-income families whose children choose to attend private colleges should receive SUSI funding. Following publication of this report, we met with the Minister, Deputy Bruton. He spent over 35 minutes with us and listened to our case. The Minister noted that Cassells recommended that SUSI grants be extended to our eligible students but he said that he would not make a decision in that regard until this committee had reported to him on the Cassells report.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are in your hands. We are worried and concerned that in the committee's deliberations on the Cassells report all the attention will be on the issue of student loans and our case will be missed. We are heartened that we have been invited here today. We hope that the committee will support us as the Minister, Deputy Bruton, made it clear he will listen to the committee's recommendations.

I am accompanied this morning by other members of the Wake Up SUSI committee. I will shortly ask each of them to make a one-minute statement on how this inequity is affecting them and their families. My first question for the committee is how can SUSI not give those of us from single-parent families and low-income households our entitlement? How can the State on the one hand fund private secondary schools to the tune of over €100 million a year, encourage private health care, private transport and private media and ignore our discrimination?We are not here on behalf of the colleges we attend: we want funding for our QQI full-time course. Essentially, we are looking for equality for Irish students regardless of the institution they attend.

My second question is why are we being discriminated against for having chosen to undertaken a QQI full-time degree course at a reputable private college? We chose Griffith College, the Dublin Business School and the Irish College of Humanities and Applied Sciences because of their reputations and their ability to nurture the student with smaller classes and excellent student supports. Why can we not be treated in the same way as other students attending non-State owned institutions such as the Royal College of Surgeons and National College of Ireland? We have learned that some students attending for-profit colleges such as BIMM, The Sound Training Centre and Setanta College, which are all very reputable and excellent institutions have been lucky enough to get all their entitlement as their degrees are awarded by institutes of technologies. Our degrees are awarded by QQI.QQI degrees have the same currency as all other degrees awarded in this country. I welcome the opportunity to highlight this point again in our discussion this morning.

We thank the joint committee for the invitation to attend this meeting and we ask that it make an early recommendation to the Minister, Deputy Bruton, as some of the students we represent are dependent on the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, hand-outs and credit unions to complete their education. Some students have approached the HEA for assistance under its student hardship fund but they were refused as they are not covered by the SUSI scheme.

Imagine trying to pay €600 a month for a room in Dublin without a SUSI grant or access to the HEA's student assistance fund.

I thank the committee for listening to me. I shall introduce each member of our committee who will speak for roughly one minute each. They are as follows: Ms Emma O'Sullivan, who is from Cork and is president of the Dublin Business School students' union; Mr. Pierce Connolly from Roscommon, who is president of the Griffith College students' union in Dublin and is the founder of this campaign; Mr. James Roberts from Cork, who is a Quality and Qualifications Ireland psychology student at Dublin Business School; Ms Suzanne Quin from Raheny, who is a Dublin law student attending Griffith College, Dublin; and Mr. Martin Byrne from Limerick, who is a counselling student at the Irish College of Humanities and Applied Sciences, ICHAS. I call on Ms O'Sullivan to commence her contribution.

Ms Emma O'Sullivan:

I am a Cork native originally and am the president of the students' union at Dublin Business School where I am studying for my final year of business at law.

Each day I encounter genuine students who are eligible for a SUSI maintenance grant. They have come to me to discuss how difficult they have found supporting themselves in Dublin. These students are from low-income families. They chose a private approved third level institution for its reputation and for a full-time QQI degree that was offered as part of the CAO. I would like to share with the committee a blatant injustice. These eligible students have been refused access to the back-to-education allowance and the student assistance fund that has given over €43 million in the past six years to over 77,000 students. Why is this the case? Why have we not been included as part of the scheme? In other private institutions students have been assisted. As I am here to represent DBS students, I put that question to members of the committee. I will hand over to Mr. Pierce Connolly, who is the chair of the Wake Up SUSI campaign and president of Griffith College students' union.

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

I thank Ms O'Sullivan and the chairperson. My name is Pierce Connolly and I am president of students' union in Griffith College, Dublin. I have gone into my fourth year of a full-time QQI approved degree in journalism.

I am eligible for a SUSI grant as only one of my parents works. The reason I established the Wake Up SUSI campaign was because of the unfairness and inequity in the current system. As president of a students’ union, like Ms O’Sullivan, I have seen a lot of students who are struggling. I want to make the committee aware that the State pays €5 million each year for students to go to the UK and over €2 million to students in private colleges that have partnerships with institutes of technology but yet the State will not fund us. I have also discovered that more than 400 students receive SUSI funding even though they attend private for-profit colleges that have partnerships with institutes of technology. I shall discuss further details of this matter with the committee but shall now hand over to Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Martin Byrne:

I thank the committee for inviting us and listening to us. I am a third year student in ICHAS in Limerick. I hope to be a counsellor and then to go on to be a psychotherapist. I am eligible for the grant. I attended the University of Limerick for a year to study health and safety but left after one year due to mental health reasons. I suffered from depression and the course did not suit me but I was drawn to studying counselling. My college is one of the very few colleges that provide training in counselling. The closest such college to Limerick is Cork but there are two further away in Dublin and Maynooth. These three colleges were the only QQI-accredited courses in counselling that I could find. Unfortunately, we do not get a grant.

For members who do not know, ICHAS is a very small college. I can see the University of Limerick, UL, from my college and all I have to do is look out of the door and I can see it. The only difference is that I am across the road. When I crossed the road I immediately lost my grant. This year I have to undertake work experience for my course. For every five hours of work experience I must have an hour of supervision that costs me €50 per hour and I need 25 hours of supervision. I have no subsidies to pay for this. My work experience has eaten into the time that I can work, as it depends on when a person is available to see me. If there is time later in the meeting I wish to go into more detail about my story but for now I will hand over to Mr. James Roberts.

Mr. James Roberts:

I am an Irish citizen who has lived in this country for over 15 years. My Dad works hard for his family. He is a taxi driver who works in the city of Cork. There are five children in my family, including myself. I am the second born and my younger siblings are aged 15, 17 and seven. I have always wanted to study for a degree in psychology. My family was very happy with my choice and encouraged me when I was accepted, on my CAO, by Dublin Business School. It is a college that has a great reputation in the area of business. I honestly did not know that DBS was a private college when I applied because the fact was not noted on the CAO form. It was not until I was offered my college place that I was informed I would not receive a SUSI grant.

My Dad works mad hours. He works a lot of hours just to keep me in the Dublin Business School. Recently I got a job just to help him and myself as my tuition fees are €5,900 a year and my travel and maintenance costs are at least €700 a month. There are very few colleges that offer a course in psychology. If I attended the Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT, that is located up the road from the Dublin Business School, I would be entitled to a SUSI grant of €2,800 and a registration fee of €3,000, which amounts to nearly €6,000 a year from the State. Is it fair that my family should carry the stress and burden of loans? I now hand over to Ms Quin.

Ms Suzanne Quin:

I thank the committee for having us. I am from Raheny, Dublin and I am entitled to a SUSI grant, including a registration fee. I am also eligible for a disability access route to education, DARE, place. I come from a low-income family. My Dad was made redundant last year and my Mum is disabled and so receives a disability allowance.

I am a second year LLB student at Griffith College in Dublin. I chose the college to improve myself and gain confidence. The college also has an excellent reputation as a law school. I hope to later share the story of two of my colleagues. Ms Amy Liggett is from County Down. She is a law student and is here today. At the last minute she was refused funding to attend Griffith College and is now in a limbo situation. There is also another student who has requested not to be named. She has worked alongside the CLAY Youth Project in Crumlin and with its help, she was able to receive a scholarship to Griffith College but has since been refused a SUSI maintenance grant. As a result she has found it very difficult to keep afloat financially while attending college.

Ms Alisha Houlihan:

I thank my colleagues for their contributions. The committee has heard examples of genuine stories and members must see that we are not the so-called privileged kids. There are many more examples that we could give. We have learned from our research that there are no more than 200 students who are eligible for SUSI grants but attend the three colleges, namely Dublin Business School, Griffith College in Dublin, Cork and Limerick and the Irish College of Humanities and Applied Sciences in Limerick. As far as we know this is the total number of institutions that are impacted by this inequity. I thank the Chairman again for the invitation to attend.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Houlihan, Mr. Connolly, Ms Quin, Ms O'Sullivan, Mr. Roberts and Mr. Byrne for their passionate and strong opening statements. They have raised pertinent points. I commend them on the work they do on behalf of the other 190 students who have been impacted by this matter. I congratulate Mr. Connolly for starting the campaign. Sometimes it just takes one person to stand up and draw attention to an inequity. The committee appreciates the work the witnesses have done to bring this campaign to this point.

I ask members to indicate to me now their wish to speak and ask questions. Mr. Byrne has addressed this point to a slight extent but I am interested in how the witnesses chose their colleges. Was it possible for them to apply or attend other colleges that operate the SUSI scheme?

The committee is getting into its work programme and will deal with the Cassells report. I would like to hear the views of the witnesses on student loans. Do they think they are a good idea for students in the future?

We will discuss with a number of different groups all the different options. The witnesses are students on the ground, so I am interested in their views.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I will not delay the witnesses because I have met the group and much of what they say is self-explanatory. However, to be absolutely clear, am I right in saying the campaign is only seeking the maintenance grants?

Ms Alisha Houlihan:

Yes.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not seeking the fee grants?

Ms Emma O'Sullivan:

If it is okay, I will take the question-----

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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No. To be fair, we will group the questions and then return to the witnesses because if we do not, we will take-----

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the witnesses to elaborate on that point. That is all. I will not delay them.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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If that is Deputy Byrne's only question, okay.

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I will be very brief. First, I welcome the witnesses here this morning. I am inspired by them all. They are a credit to themselves and their families, and I compliment them on their campaign and the way they have organised themselves. It is fair to say there is something badly wrong with a system that holds such people back. I for one, and I am sure other members, will give serious consideration to their request. The number to which they referred, 200 students, seems minimal, and the cost of funding 200 people, if they are all on a par with the witnesses, would be a great investment for the State to make because we would get it back tenfold.

Photo of Maria ByrneMaria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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First, I welcome the Wake Up SUSI campaign here this morning. I met members of the Limerick branch of the campaign in Limerick recently and was inspired by the many stories I heard. It is strange that all these courses appear on the CAO yet students are not informed so they go into the application process blindfolded and do not realise that they will not be eligible to receive any of the grants. These are all very legitimate courses. Taking Mr. Byrne's story, he did not have much choice; the course he chose was the only one on offer in his area. I am sure many more such stories are replicated across the 200 students, so I take the campaign very seriously. We need to consider it seriously because why should the 200 students across the country be disenfranchised while we pay for people to go abroad on courses and so on?

Photo of Jim DalyJim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I also welcome the group and commend it, as other speakers have done, on its campaign. The witnesses' presentations were very impressive and have given us plenty of food for thought. I have two brief questions. One concerns what Senator Byrne touched on. I am struck by Griffith College, for example, and other colleges that do not inform students of their status as private colleges. Some of the witnesses referred to the fact that they had applied to Griffith College and only realised afterwards that the grants would not be provided. Do the colleges make an effort to inform students in this regard? Second, I am curious to know what SUSI's response to the students has been to date. What kind of reasoning or rationale has been offered to them? In other words, what is the other side of the story that SUSI is putting forward? I am curious to know that. I apologise as I must leave but I will pick up the responses afterwards from the official record.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome each and every one of the witnesses. I am amazed that only 200 students are involved in this matter. The situation of the students affected is extremely unfair. If the information being sent out by colleges is not clear, as in a couple of cases in which people genuinely did not realise they were applying to private colleges, that needs to be addressed. I commend all the witnesses. Are the other 196 students all fully behind this campaign? Have they been lobbying as strongly as the witnesses on the issue?

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Ó Clochartaigh want to come in?

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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No. I concur with what has been said already. The witnesses find themselves in a desperate and very unfair situation. What we need to do as a committee is put our heads together and see what solutions can be found to try to make sure that nobody is discriminated against financially because of what would appear to be a lack of information being provided through the CAO system. I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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My apologies, I had skipped over Deputy Martin without meaning to.

Photo of Catherine MartinCatherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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That is not a problem. I welcome the witnesses, a few of whom I have met already. It is appalling that they are being left in limbo. I think it was John F. Kennedy who said that education should be the greatest equaliser of all. There is no level playing field in this situation at all, and I am a firm believer in equal access. I was particularly struck by Mr. Byrne's contribution when he said that he lost his grant when he crossed the road.

Following on from Deputy Byrne's question, will the witnesses clarify they are only seeking the maintenance grants? I submitted a parliamentary question on this matter and got quite a convoluted answer, at the end of which the Minister stated, "It is open to private higher education institutions that operate on a 'for profit' basis to use their own resources to provide financial supports to students that they consider to be in financial difficulty." I am curious to know whether that happens. Is there any sort of support being offered in any of these colleges?

Finally, I agree with the other members about the lack of clarity. I think it was Ms Houlihan who, when I met her, said she was so excited to get the course she wanted only to find out she would not get the necessary support. We need to tackle that obstacle as a committee for the witnesses.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank members for their questions and comments and give back the floor to the witnesses. Shall I start with Mr. Connolly as chair of the group?

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

Yes, that is no problem. The first question concerned student loans. We have not made an informed decision as to whether student loans would be good or bad for us so we will not answer that question.

The second question concerned colleges letting us know whether they are private institutions, which is the case. However, our problem is that when we apply through the CAO, we are not told that because we are applying for a particular college we will not get a SUSI grant. One will not see that anywhere on the application form and that is our problem. It is not that the college has not said that it is a private institution; it is that the CAO does not tell us that because we are applying to a particular private institution, we will not get a SUSI grant. My situation is that I applied to Griffith College and then, once I accepted the offer, I was sent back a letter from SUSI stating I would not get any sort of funding from SUSI. That left my family in a very difficult situation as we had to take out credit union loans, borrow from my grandparents and so on. I know of further cases in which people had to borrow from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul as well.

Every student who is eligible for a SUSI grant but is not getting it is behind us. It is just that we cannot bring 200 students in here. They are fully behind us. I have talked to so many students. Yesterday I was talking to one who shook my hand and said, "Thank you so much for doing this for us. This will help me. This will benefit me so much." The person about whom I am talking and who I will not name works ridiculous hours. He does his college work and then goes straight to work four or five days a week after college. In that regard, every student who is eligible for a SUSI grant is 100% behind us and backing us.

Other questions-----

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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If Mr. Connolly wants to ask any of the other witnesses to answer or respond to any of the questions, he should feel free to do so. We are not putting him in the hot seat all the time.

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

That is fine.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Could you answer my question about maintenance and-----

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chairman.

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

What we want is what every other SUSI-eligible student gets, that is, maintenance grants and registration fees.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Is the group therefore seeking both?

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

Yes. We are asking for equality. We are asking what the difference is between a person who goes to Griffith College and a person who goes to DIT. They both get the exact same Quality and Qualifications Ireland-approved degree at the end of the day, and I do not see why there should be a difference.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I seek clarity on this point. Regarding the so-called free fees sector, fees were abolished but then a registration fee was brought in. I do not know what it started off at, probably €100, and it is now up to €3,000. That is the registration fee. There is also allegedly a fee that is not charged. In Griffith College is there a registration fee and a further fee, or when Mr. Connolly says "registration fee", does he mean the entire fee that must be paid?

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

In the case of Griffith College there is a registration fee and then an extra fee.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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How does that break down?

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

I would have to ask the president of Griffith College. I would not know fully. I am not involved in the finances of Griffith College.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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No, but Mr. Connolly knows what he is paying as a registration fee and an extra fee, or are the two combined?

Ms Emma O'Sullivan:

It is a combination. It is €5,650 and this comprises the fees for the year.

Ms Suzanne Quin:

In Griffith College it is broken down. The registration fee is a small part of the total fee. People register and then get access to Moodle, which is where they get their class notes and information from the college. There is a €250 fee at the start of the year, which is taken from the total fee, which for my course is €6,579 a year.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for the clarification.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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The campaign is seeking this entire fee to be funded by SUSI.

Ms Emma O'Sullivan:

The common goal is that we have an equal stance. We are not looking for the Government to pay more because the college is asking for more. We want it to be relative to what someone in a public institution receives, such as a €3,000 registration fee, and the student would be liable to pay the top-up. We are not suggesting for one moment that just because a college decides to charge more we should subsequently receive more.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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That answers my question.

Mr. Martin Byrne:

I want to reiterate that what we seek is to get exactly what any other student gets and we would make up whatever difference exists. This would be a huge help to us. I would say €200 would have got me out of a hole over the past two years I have been in college. Luckily, the support in my college has been very good. We were asked whether we have financial support. My college is very good in the sense I have missed payments, perhaps more than I should, but there has never been any call to the office or a lock-out. If I needed to pay it over the summer that was no problem. If I wanted to leave it for two or three months and come back there was no issue. If it can do anything to help me it will. I mentioned I must do supervision for €50 an hour. My class went from 58 in first year to the high 20s or low 30s. One can argue that a few of them might have left because the course was not for them, and that is perfect, but I know that in many cases the reason was cash. They could not fund it. They could not get the money together, and no matter how much the college accommodated them they could not get it across.

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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Are the fees charged by private colleges on a par with non-private colleges? Is it more expensive to go to a private college than to any other?

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The situation is unfair and unacceptable, and it discriminates against low income people. I am glad to hear that in Mr. Byrne's case there was some leeway with the college and it provided support and was flexible. Were the other colleges as flexible and supportive?

Ms Suzanne Quin:

I have not paid my fees yet and I have not received anything threatening or bad from the college. It has not said anything, just that I need to pay. I have paid my registration fee but there has been no issue.

Ms Alisha Houlihan:

Griffith College has a scholarship scheme, and we have a story from a girl from the Clay project in Crumlin which Ms Quin will relate. I was awarded a scholarship in leaving certificate, due to work I had done with Foróige. This scheme exists for people who cannot afford to go to a private college but perhaps a course there suits them.

Ms Suzanne Quin:

The girl in question, who would prefer not to be named, is from a very poor background. She got involved with the CLAY youth project in Crumlin and with its aid she was granted a scholarship for Griffith College. She was refused a SUSI maintenance grant and works three days a week while doing a law degree. I also study law and I know the hours that are required for research. She is doing this along with working shifts three days a week to keep herself going. It is difficult. She is in the same situation as we are.

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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Are the fees charged by the private colleges the witnesses attend any more expensive than a similar course in a non-private college?

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

As far as I am aware they are roughly the same, but if people attending DIT or Trinity College are eligible for SUSI they receive a grant, but those going to Griffith College, Dublin Business School, DBS, or the Irish College of Humanities and Applied Sciences, ICHAS, do not receive any SUSI funding.

Photo of Robbie GallagherRobbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I understand this, but the fees are quite similar.

Photo of Catherine MartinCatherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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Ms Houlihan mentioned in her presentation that she met the Minister, Deputy Bruton, and she seems to be aware of the Cassells report. Did the Minister indicate any opinion on this or will he leave it to the committee?

Ms Alisha Houlihan:

He did not give too much away really.

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

To be very fair, he honestly said he would send it to the committee and make a decision based on its decision. We have a letter from the Minister which Ms Quin will explain.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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That would be useful because the Minister certainly did not write to the committee asking it. It would be helpful if it were read into the record.

Ms Suzanne Quin:

I have two letters. The first is dated 3 October 2016. It thanks me for dropping down to the Minister's advice clinic to discuss the case for extending student support schemes to private colleges. The Minister states he will check out exactly what support is extended to colleges such as the National College of Ireland, NCI, and the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland, RCSI. He states the Department has met the Wake Up SUSI campaign to better understand the case and see whether any facility can be extended, but that, as he mentioned, extending student support schemes which make up a substantial part of €1.5 million spent on higher education to private colleges would be a very big decision with large financial implications needing budgetary provision and Government approval. The second letter comprises education legislation. Shall I read it?

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Is it just the legislation?

Ms Suzanne Quin:

It is dated 5 October and the Minister states under the Department student grant scheme eligible candidates may receive funding provided they attend an approved course at an approved institution as defined in the scheme. He states the definition of an approved institution is set out in section 7 of the Student Support Act 2011 and regulation 3 of the Student Support Regulations 2016. He states that section 7 defines the matters the Minister for Education and Skills can consider when prescribing an educational institution as being an approved institution. The letter then lists the legislation.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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There is no need to read that.

Ms Suzanne Quin:

After the legislation he wrote-----

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

This is in the Minister's own personal handwriting on the actual letter.

Ms Suzanne Quin:

This states the RCSI and NCI have been deemed eligible and both are private colleges. It also states that so far new for profit institutions have not been accepted. The issue this raises is with regard to new institutions. Griffith College and DBS have been around for a long time so why is it not being extended to our colleges?

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Quin and all of the witnesses, and those who have come to support them. They have raised pertinent and highly relevant points about the blockages that exist. We have another witness coming before the committee so I will allow people to speak briefly.

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

I have a point on the new for profit institutions. I have done research, and students in three private for profit colleges in Dublin receive a SUSI grant.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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That is interesting information to have. Will Mr. Connolly name them?

Mr. Pierce Connolly:

I have the list here, but unfortunately I do not have a prospectus for any of them. They will be sent to the committee.

There are three main ones which we have discovered. One is that IADT has a partnership with the Sound Training College in Temple Bar, which is a bit of a distance away. That is a partnership in creative music production which costs the State over €150,000. The DIT is in partnership with BIMM music college, which is the British and Irish Modern Music Institute. That course is called "commercial music" and it costs the State €1.2 million. Finally, we have Setanta Sport, which runs a course in conjunction with LIT on sports strength and conditioning, which costs the State €630,000. Over the last year alone, €847,000 was paid to approximately only 400 students attending these courses and getting SUSI grants. I know one of them personally. It was €847,000 in just maintenance grants alone. It is very unfair and upsetting. These are private, for-profit colleges like Griffith, DBS and ICHAS but because they have a partnership with an institute of technology, their students receive a SUSI grant. I think the members can agree that it is very unfair.

Photo of Fiona O'LoughlinFiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The point is well made. The whole presentation has been very informative. There is a great deal of empathy from the members in regard to the particular situation in which the witnesses find themselves. We are all very supportive of equal access to education for all. As I indicated, the Minister has not written to us to say he wanted us to make a recommendation to him. He has written to us about a number of other situations, of course. We discussed that earlier this morning. However, we will be happy to make a recommendation, in particular when we are considering funding for higher level in the context of the Cassells report. We will take on board the presentation that was made this morning.