Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 6 October 2016

Public Accounts Committee

Business of Committee

11:00 am

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Deputy Catherine Murphy to the committee. She is replacing Deputy Shortall and we look forward to working with her on the committee. We are joined today by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness at the committee meetings and he is accompanied by Mr. John Riordan, deputy director, Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The first item on our agenda today is the minutes of our meeting of 29 September 2016. Are they agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to delay this meeting unduly but we need to discuss how we structure these meetings. We need an examination that is evidence based and we need a mechanism to check clear conflicts in testimony or new material that is introduced. Our job is to examine this report. People will analyse it, give their views or position on matters but it hinges on the documentation and facts presented to the committee. Although our last meeting was enlightening I do not think we adequately allowed, or at least not to my satisfaction, for some of the matters raised by NAMA to be tested in the second part of the meeting, for instance, by comment from the Comptroller and Auditor General. There were other issues that got through the net which I wonder if they were factually accurate. It is my strong view that there are several witnesses we need to hear from arising from the NAMA evidence, who are not on the witness list. I am talking about PIMCO and Lazard. It is not a massive list but we could not reasonably say that we made a full examination of this report without hearing from them. I am anxious that they would be called. I am happy to return to the issue but I want to signal that strongly.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We had a brief discussion of this earlier this morning and decided to come back to it. We made no decision. We said we would hear in further detail from the Deputy because she made the request. We agreed to send quite a comprehensive list of requests of information to NAMA arising from the last meeting.

Some members had submitted questions in advance and I added quite a bit to the list to try to get more information from NAMA. To be very clear, we had to finish the last day at 7.15 p.m. That is all we could do-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that but -----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To be very clear, NAMA will be back again to answer everyone's questions. On the other witnesses, we will probably -----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The issue is not the length of the meeting. The last meeting was very lengthy. The issue is how we go about this in a structured way so that we can, at some stage, get to some sense of resolution or common agreement because our objective is to produce an agreed report, I presume.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and we will certainly return to that.

The next item on our agenda is correspondence received since the last meeting. The first item is a letter from the Minister for Finance accepting the invitation today and we will note that. The second item, 85B, is a copy of an e-mail forwarded by Deputy Noel Rock, dated 13 February 2014, from Mr. Michael R. George, managing director of Fortress Capital, to Mr. Andrew McDowell in the Department of An Taoiseach asking how he might get involved in the sales process of NAMA's Northern Ireland portfolio. That is noted. I thank Deputy Rock for submitting this, which was referred to during our last meeting. It is now part of the correspondence for consideration by the committee and we will add it to the list of relevant documentation in our file.

The next item is 86B, a letter from Ms Teresa Griffin, chief executive of the National Council for Special Education, in response to the committee's query as to why no review of the council's internal financial control system was carried out in 2015. The letter points out that a review was carried out. However, the organisation was waiting for the Minister to appoint members to the council and the review could not be examined until that was done. There were no significant issues found and it is good to clarify that. That is noted.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Can we go back to the previous item briefly? I am afraid I was distracted.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, that is the e-mail that Deputy Rock forwarded to us. He sent us copies of e-mails to and from the Taoiseach's office and we will put them on our Project Eagle file for further consideration.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Thank you

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The next item is 83C, a letter from an individual describing him or herself as a concerned taxpayer, in regard to a charity shop in Bantry. I propose we forward this to the Charities Regulatory Authority. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Item 84C is a letter from an individual alleging a misappropriation of public money by Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board, ETB. The letter refers to the use of public funds by the ETB for legal services, against the advice of the Department. I propose that we write to the Department requesting a note on this case and on the action to be taken. We will note that for now.

Item 87C is a letter from a business owner who is trying to sell his property and who claims that NAMA is delaying the release of information. I propose that we write to NAMA asking for a note on the reason for the delay in the release of this information. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Correspondence 89C is a letter from Mr. Mark Ewbank of the UK Parliament inviting members of this committee to the Global Tax Transparency Summit in London on 8 and 9 December next, organised by the British Public Accounts Committee. It is a very topical issue and if any member is interested in attending, please contact the clerk and we can prepare an estimate and consider the matter.

The next items, 90C and 93C, are e-mails from Deputy David Cullinane concerning documentation and required answers to questions relating to the committee's examination of Project Eagle. We have discussed that. It is on our file and we dealt with it earlier this morning. That is noted.

The next item is an e-mail from Deputy Mary Lou McDonald concerning possible invitees. That is the matter to which the Deputy referred earlier. We had a brief discussion already this morning and we will come back to that matter again as soon as possible.

In our private session this morning we discussed a disclosure which centres on the interpretation and implementation of social protection legislation. While our legal advice suggests that it is not within the remit of this committee, the committee acknowledges that the central point of the disclosure may merit further discussion in a different forum. We will be writing to the individual to let him know our decision on this matter, following our detailed discussion this morning.

The next items of correspondence are the statements of accounts received since our last meeting. They are all clear audit opinions from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, the Ombudsman for Children, Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology, Carlow Institute of Technology and InterTrade Ireland. If any members have any queries on these items, they will find copies of them in the Oireachtas Library. No issues have been brought to our attention by the Comptroller and Auditor General in connection with any of the aforementioned statements of accounts.

The next item is our work programme, which has been circulated to members and which we discussed already this morning. The Revenue Commissioners will come before us next week and the Minister for Finance will be with us at 2.30 p.m. today. Next Thursday we will meet Mr. Brian Rowntree, former member of the Northern Ireland Advisory Committee, to discuss Project Eagle. On Tuesday, 18 October we will meet three members of the NAMA board, Mr. Willie Soffe, Mr. Oliver Ellingham and Mr. Brian McEnery. On Thursday, 20 October we will meet representatives of the Department of Social Protection for a normal, scheduled meeting to deal with the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. On Tuesday, 25 October we will continue our examination of Project Eagle with officials and former officials from NAMA. On Wednesday, 26 October the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, Mr. Martin McGuinness MLA will appear before the committee. The next meeting is scheduled for quite some time later, Thursday, 17 November, when we will meet Ms Éilish Finan, Mr. John Mulcahy and Mr. John Corrigan from the board of NAMA. We have also scheduled a meeting with officials from the Department of Finance on 24 November but I propose that we bring that meeting forward.

Since our last meeting, the Taoiseach and the party leaders have agreed to the establishment of a commission of investigation in respect of Project Eagle. I expect the commission to be established shortly, a judge to be appointed, systems put in place and hearings to commence. I do not know exactly when this will happen but it would be very prudent for this committee to have concluded its work before the commission begins so that we are not carrying out our examination while a commission of investigation is examining the same matter. I would hope that we would finish our public hearings by mid-November, with a view to producing our report by early December. Then our report and any documentation we have received would be available to the commission of investigation. From that point of view, we will be very busy for a few weeks but it is important that we, as the committee of public accounts conclude our examination, do our job and produce a report. It will then be up to others to follow the matter up further. That is the general position at the moment.

As there is no other business, we will suspend the meeting for ten minutes until the Minister arrives. He is scheduled to be here at 2.30 p.m. We have just received his opening statement, copies of which have been circulated to members.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Just before the Chairman arrived I gave a copy of a document to the clerk. It is a briefing document, released under FOI, given to the Minister for Finance and officials from his Department. It is a context document on Project Eagle from 2015. As I will make reference to some of it during the meeting, I gave a copy of it to the clerk. I ask that copies be made for members and that I be given back the original copy.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will try to copy and circulate that. However, as Chairman, I am concerned that there was a relevant document in the Department of Finance that was not made available to us. That is my observation on this. If it was obtainable under FOI, I would have presumed it should have been made available to us. Maybe there is nothing new in it. I do not know but we will look at it. I thank Deputy Cullinane for bringing it to us. We will have to confirm with the Department of Finance that there are no other documents in the system that have not been sent to us. That is a good opening question for the Department.

We will suspend now until 2.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 2.19 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.